How much can I make in Los Angeles?

[nexuscriteria]

If I plan to work 12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, what is the expected salary in Los Angeles?

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[GeneralVeers]

If I plan to work 12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, what is the expected salary in Los Angeles?

When I was there it was anywhere from 100 to 120/hour. In the outlying areas like Lancaster you can make 150 or so.

Needless to say many ED physicians were working several jobs to pay for their overpriced houses.

 

[nexuscriteria]

When I was there it was anywhere from 100 to 120/hour. In the outlying areas like Lancaster you can make 150 or so.

Needless to say many ED physicians were working several jobs to pay for their overpriced houses.

Do most big groups (JJ&R, Team Health, CEP) pay out as independent contractors? Or do physicians earn 100-120/hr plus benefits?

 

[the duck]

When I was there it was anywhere from 100 to 120/hour. In the outlying areas like Lancaster you can make 150 or so.

Needless to say many ED physicians were working several jobs to pay for their overpriced houses.

I'm obviously only a pre-med, and hence by on means an expert, but that comes to "only" 174K a year. Isn't that on the low side for EM, especially in an area with a high cost of living like LA?

 

[deleted109597]

I'm obviously only a pre-med, and hence by on means an expert, but that comes to "only" 174K a year. Isn't that on the low side for EM, especially in an area with a high cost of living like LA?

Yep. Unfortunately, just like every other job, the more people want to live in a place, the less they can pay and still have people do it. Your destination cities are usually overrun with docs and they end up working more to earn less.
Plus, who wants to live in California and give all that tax money away?

 

[the duck]

Yep. Unfortunately, just like every other job, the more people want to live in a place, the less they can pay and still have people do it. Your destination cities are usually overrun with docs and they end up working more to earn less.
Plus, who wants to live in California and give all that tax money away?

Ouch. Do you know if this applies to the rest of CA, specifically the Bay Area?

 

[Cerberus]

Ouch. Do you know if this applies to the rest of CA, specifically the Bay Area?

Yeah, who wants to live in the Bay Area

 

[GeneralVeers]

Ouch. Do you know if this applies to the rest of CA, specifically the Bay Area?

As with everything it's about location. Believe or not there are "undesirable" locations in California as well. I have a friend in Modesto who's making a lot more than what they pay in SoCal.

Another good example is Texas. In general Texas pays really well, EXCEPT in Austin, where the reimbursement is almost 50% less. The reason? There are few jobs there, as everyone want to move there, so ER groups typically pay less.

 

[Jeff698]

My question would be "how much will I have to spend in LA?"

As in, how much for a real house, for the anti-psychotics I'd be on because of the traffic, the steroids/beta agonists b/c of the smog, etc.

I'm stick with little ol' unappealing Central Texas, thank you.

Take care,
Jeff

 

[DeLaughterDO]

My question would be "how much will I have to spend in LA?"

As in, how much for a real house, for the anti-psychotics I'd be on because of the traffic, the steroids/beta agonists b/c of the smog, etc.

I'm stick with little ol' unappealing Central Texas, thank you.

Take care,
Jeff

Except I'm going to little ol' unappealing southeast Texas, y'all

 

[GeneralVeers]

Except I'm going to little ol' unappealing southeast Texas, y'all

I still work down there in SE Texas. Definitely some positives over L.A.

 

[Antibodies]

I'm obviously only a pre-med, and hence by on means an expert, but that comes to "only" 174K a year. Isn't that on the low side for EM, especially in an area with a high cost of living like LA?

Well, $100 an hour, working 40 a week is
100 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 192,000
120 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 230,400

However, what I hear from our faculty, the pay is about 250-300k. (I attend school in LA). But I am not 100% sure if they mean that is for LA or in general.

 

[the duck]

If I plan to work 12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, what is the expected salary in Los Angeles?

Well, $100 an hour, working 40 a week is
100 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 192,000
120 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 230,400

However, what I hear from our faculty, the pay is about 250-300k. (I attend school in LA). But I am not 100% sure if they mean that is for LA or in general.

12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, comes out to 36, not 40 hours a week. Also, is vacation normally paid?(I've never held a job, and my dad works for himself, so I don't know these things)

Which brings the $100/hour down to $172,800/year (assuming paid vacation)
and $120/hour to $207,360/year.

 

[Eta Carinae]

If I plan to work 12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, what is the expected salary in Los Angeles?

WOW!

That's like 144 hrs/mo. That's very close to what some surgeons and surgery residents work in A WEEK!

you guys have it good!

It would seem you'd need to pull in few more shifts to afford the chics and the real estate in LA, though.

Just sayin'

 

[Antibodies]

12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, comes out to 36, not 40 hours a week. Also, is vacation normally paid?(I've never held a job, and my dad works for himself, so I don't know these things)

Which brings the $100/hour down to $172,800/year (assuming paid vacation)
and $120/hour to $207,360/year.

Oops. You are right.
Well, I still heard $250k from our faculty. *shrug*

 

[deleted109597]

WOW!

That's like 144 hrs/mo. That's very close to what some surgeons and surgery residents work in A WEEK!

you guys have it good!

It would seem you'd need to pull in few more shifts to afford the chics and the real estate in LA, though.

Just sayin'

Nobody works 144 hours a week for more than a couple weeks.
Surgery residents have the same ACGME rules as non-surgery residents (aside from neurosurgery).
MDs in LA are decidedly middle class people.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Nobody works 144 hours a week for more than a couple weeks.

Hey DMN, you should come visit my neck of the woods. Not 144 hours but close. 100-120/wk are not unusual.

Surgery residents have the same ACGME rules as non-surgery residents (aside from neurosurgery).

Indeedy
and they are very strictly followed (on paper).
There are more than a few surgery PDs who ensure workhour rules are not violated...in the residents' reporting of their hours.

Not all programs are this way but few are. In my neck of the woods, the surgical volume is so ridiculously high that it's impossible to abide by the 80hr restriction without increasing the resident class size- a feat which is almost impossible for depts like Ortho, plastics and urology who have to keep their numbers down.

I'm a transplant from Boston and I don't remember it being that bad up there. Another county hospital on steroids was the well-famed Grady. My sample size is small, though. Still, I find the volume uniformly overwhelming in these cities; and necessitating some crossover into 100s-hr-land.

MDs in LA are decidedly middle class people.

 

[karizma098]

i've never heard of an ER doc making 170k. that's awfully low.

the averages in los angeles and san fran are in the 250-300k range. depends on the hospital, how close to the city center, etc. lancaster will def pay more..go further out to places like modesto and whatnot and you will make more. in l.a a lot of er. docs pick up extra shifts and end up working 15 or 16 days a month and not 12. this still isn't terrible. a starting grad will probably be in the low to mid 200's and older guys usually land in the 300 ish range. this isn't bad, but considering you can start around 300 in a lot of other parts of the country ( or even other parts of cali ) kinda makes it suck.

( also , especially when buying a reasonable house in a nice suburb of la will easily run you 700k + )

 

[nickolas]

the surgical volume is so ridiculously high that it's impossible to abide by the 80hr restriction without increasing the resident class size- a feat which is almost impossible for depts like Ortho, plastics and urology who have to keep their numbers down.

Off topic question: Why do ortho, plastics or urology have to keep their numbers down?

 

[JamesBond15]

A 3rd year resident was looking into moonlighting (the program is 4 years). She said that in the heart of LA, the VA pays $100 per hour and a certain Kaiser pays $120.

How do moonlighting rates compare to actual attending rates?

 

[otacon88]

Off topic question: Why do ortho, plastics or urology have to keep their numbers down?

because then those programs/specialty won't be as competitive!

 

[njac]

Speak to me of lancaster... We know they pay more, but did any of you rotate out there?

 

[nexuscriteria]

I posted the original question 1 yr ago. Since then, I have been working as an attending in Los Angeles.

Having interviewed at the VA and Kaiser, the moonlighting pay is the same as full-time pay. At the VA, it is $100/hr and Kaiser it is $130/hr. All SoCal Kaisers pay the same regardless of location. The reason full-time is better is because only full-time workers get benefits and guaranteed shifts/month. For Kaiser, the benefits among other things include annual pension of half of your peak yearly salary. This is a lot of money (assuming you don't die before 65.)

For other community hospitals, the pay ranges from $100-220/hr as an independent contractor. You pay for your own health insurance, vacation time, disability insurance, etc. All jobs that I interviewed at included malpractice insurance. Most jobs are 12 shifts/ month at 12 hours each or 15 shifts/ month at 8-10 hours each. Difference in pay is due to payer mix, location desirability, and greediness of the contract holders.

You don't necessarily have to work in Lancaster or the middle of nowhere to get a higher-paying Los Angeles job. You can theoretically get a high-income job in a wealthy, "fun" area of Los Angeles. However, to land this job, you would need to have an impressive resume and, of course, connections... As usual, these jobs are never advertised.

 

[DrVanNostran]

I posted the original question 1 yr ago. Since then, I have been working as an attending in Los Angeles.

Having interviewed at the VA and Kaiser, the moonlighting pay is the same as full-time pay. At the VA, it is $100/hr and Kaiser it is $130/hr. All SoCal Kaisers pay the same regardless of location. The reason full-time is better is because only full-time workers get benefits and guaranteed shifts/month. For Kaiser, the benefits among other things include annual pension of half of your peak yearly salary. This is a lot of money (assuming you don't die before 65.)

For other community hospitals, the pay ranges from $100-220/hr as an independent contractor. You pay for your own health insurance, vacation time, disability insurance, etc. All jobs that I interviewed at included malpractice insurance. Most jobs are 12 shifts/ month at 12 hours each or 15 shifts/ month at 8-10 hours each. Difference in pay is due to payer mix, location desirability, and greediness of the contract holders.

You don't necessarily have to work in Lancaster or the middle of nowhere to get a higher-paying Los Angeles job. You can theoretically get a high-income job in a wealthy, "fun" area of Los Angeles. However, to land this job, you would need to have an impressive resume and, of course, connections... As usual, these jobs are never advertised.

Outside the contract of 12-16 shifts a month, how easy is it to land a moonlighting gig? Are they usually located in the middle of no where? My brother moonlighted for NS and that was a bit easier since most hospitals didn't have an operating NS department. Just curious about EM.

 

[Painter1]

I posted

You don't necessarily have to work in Lancaster or the middle of nowhere to get a higher-paying Los Angeles job. You can theoretically get a high-income job in a wealthy, "fun" area of Los Angeles. However, to land this job, you would need to have an impressive resume and, of course, connections... As usual, these jobs are never advertised.

i reckon cedar sinai would be one of those hospitals. the pay is good plus it's a big thing out in L.A. to be working at Cedar Sinai. the only way in is through connections, no way around that one.

 

[JamesBond15]

I posted the original question 1 yr ago. Since then, I have been working as an attending in Los Angeles.

Having interviewed at the VA and Kaiser, the moonlighting pay is the same as full-time pay. At the VA, it is $100/hr and Kaiser it is $130/hr. All SoCal Kaisers pay the same regardless of location. The reason full-time is better is because only full-time workers get benefits and guaranteed shifts/month. For Kaiser, the benefits among other things include annual pension of half of your peak yearly salary. This is a lot of money (assuming you don't die before 65.)

For other community hospitals, the pay ranges from $100-220/hr as an independent contractor. You pay for your own health insurance, vacation time, disability insurance, etc. All jobs that I interviewed at included malpractice insurance. Most jobs are 12 shifts/ month at 12 hours each or 15 shifts/ month at 8-10 hours each. Difference in pay is due to payer mix, location desirability, and greediness of the contract holders.

You don't necessarily have to work in Lancaster or the middle of nowhere to get a higher-paying Los Angeles job. You can theoretically get a high-income job in a wealthy, "fun" area of Los Angeles. However, to land this job, you would need to have an impressive resume and, of course, connections... As usual, these jobs are never advertised.

Thanks for the update!
Does anyone know how much the academic centers pay? (ie: UCLA, USC..)

 

[spyderdoc]

i reckon cedar sinai would be one of those hospitals. the pay is good plus it's a big thing out in L.A. to be working at Cedar Sinai. the only way in is through connections, no way around that one.

Unless things have changed since I was in LA area, Cedars is actually NOT a great place to work. It is (or was) a group of 5 guys that "own" the contract and hire mostly fresh out of residency types, pay a so-so hourly wage with no real hopes of ever making partner. These 5 guys (perhaps they also own a burger chain?) make bank on the backs of these hourly workers. They tend to have a high turnover as a result......I think they hire mostly from the pool of local graduating residents......

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

When I was there it was anywhere from 100 to 120/hour. In the outlying areas like Lancaster you can make 150 or so.

Needless to say many ED physicians were working several jobs to pay for their overpriced houses.

Thats crazy; as a resident, I will not even consider leaving the house unless there is a 2 in front of it and usually needs to be a 3 if I have any remote plans. One place was paying 540/hr. I miss that joint. God loves the south!

 

[Apollyon]

One place was paying 540/hr.

You have to tell me where. At that rate, one 8 hr shift a week is good for $200K/year. 36hr/week, with 2 weeks off, comes out to $970K. That can't stay hidden.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

You have to tell me where. At that rate, one 8 hr shift a week is good for $200K/year. 36hr/week, with 2 weeks off, comes out to $970K. That can't stay hidden.

That is not the regular rate and is only paid on occasion. The state of MS is so short on doctors; hospitals across this state struggle constantly for coverage. We get calls and emails constantly to cover shifts.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

If I plan to work 12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, what is the expected salary in Los Angeles?

Interesting that you think it is so simple.

If you are an employee, you get paid what you negotiate. In EM, that can vary anywhere from $90-300 an hour.

If you are an owner (partner), you get paid what you generate minus expenses. That usually ranges from $200-300 an hour.

As far as a "salary" you have to multiple that number by the number of hours you work, and which of those hours you actually get paid for (some groups pay only 8 hours, even if you're there for 10, or they don't pay you to stay late and chart or whatever.

In this area (not L.A.) going rates for employees are $90-175. A typical partner makes between $200 and $250. So 144 hours a month would equal $156K-$302K for an employee and $346K-$432K for a partner. But I'll be honest, no one in my group works 144 hours a month. The highest is probably working 135 and the average is closer to 100. Who needs $400K? I'd rather have $250K and a ton of time off.

 

[DrVanNostran]

Interesting that you think it is so simple.

If you are an employee, you get paid what you negotiate. In EM, that can vary anywhere from $90-300 an hour.

If you are an owner (partner), you get paid what you generate minus expenses. That usually ranges from $200-300 an hour.

As far as a "salary" you have to multiple that number by the number of hours you work, and which of those hours you actually get paid for (some groups pay only 8 hours, even if you're there for 10, or they don't pay you to stay late and chart or whatever.

In this area (not L.A.) going rates for employees are $90-175. A typical partner makes between $200 and $250. So 144 hours a month would equal $156K-$302K for an employee and $346K-$432K for a partner. But I'll be honest, no one in my group works 144 hours a month. The highest is probably working 135 and the average is closer to 100. Who needs $400K? I'd rather have $250K and a ton of time off.

In general, how long does it take to become a partner? And is there a trend of EM docs becoming hospital employees rather than being in a private group/contracted?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

In general, how long does it take to become a partner? And is there a trend of EM docs becoming hospital employees rather than being in a private group/contracted?

1-3 years. Yes, there is a trend. Most private groups are fighting against it tooth and nail.

 

[njac]

Even if no one knows anything about the hospital in Lancaster, how feasible might it be to live in Burbank or Pasadena and commute there? Or is it worth it to live in Santa Clarita?


This is all theoretical, of course.

 

[pinipig523]

Well, $100 an hour, working 40 a week is
100 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 192,000
120 x 40 x 4 x 12 = 230,400

However, what I hear from our faculty, the pay is about 250-300k. (I attend school in LA). But I am not 100% sure if they mean that is for LA or in general.

Those are all erroneous calculations. There are not only 48 weeks in a year... there are 52.

100x40x4x13 = 208,000
120x40x4x13 = 249,600

I can't believe no one caught that.

Yes, you get an extra 4weeks worth of pay for free.

 

[KnowYourNeuro]

If I plan to work 12 shifts a month at 12 hours each, what is the expected salary in Los Angeles?

Some of these responses are way off. I don't mean the salary bits, I mean the lack of Los Angeles knowledge. One statement was that if you're making in the high 100K's to low 200K's that you're "middle class in LA". No, you're not. I literally just signed up for this site to help out the original post navigate the lack of socal knowledge in this thread.

If you make 60K a year here (LA, born and raised) you're middle class. I don't care for statistical google findings. I actually live here. If you and or your sig other are making 190K you're doing just fine. Like living near a golf course just fine. Will you be living off pch or in the Hollywood hills? No. But will you even know what middle class food tastes like? Absolutely not, that's absurd. If you're looking for golden laced bath towels and heated tiles on your balcony over looking the ol' vineyard, then you guys signed up for the wrong gig.

But yes, the traffic is horrific.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Some of these responses are way off. I don't mean the salary bits, I mean the lack of Los Angeles knowledge. One statement was that if you're making in the high 100K's to low 200K's that you're "middle class in LA". No, you're not. I literally just signed up for this site to help out the original post navigate the lack of socal knowledge in this thread.

If you make 60K a year here (LA, born and raised) you're middle class. I don't care for statistical google findings. I actually live here. If you and or your sig other are making 190K you're doing just fine. Like living near a golf course just fine. Will you be living off pch or in the Hollywood hills? No. But will you even know what middle class food tastes like? Absolutely not, that's absurd. If you're looking for golden laced bath towels and heated tiles on your balcony over looking the ol' vineyard, then you guys signed up for the wrong gig.

But yes, the traffic is horrific.

This is not true. At all. Except the traffic part. Making 190K and living in the parts of LA that a person would want to actually live in with an MD and an MD's spouse and MD's kids is difficult. Decidedly middle class in terms of what things you have money left over for after you've paid for housing and education. Houses are incredibly inflated. Education, unless you live in La Crescenta or South Pasadena or Arcadia or a handful of other places gets expensive quickly. You will not be living on a golf course on 190k, unless you're living in the middle of Ventura county or north of Santa Clarita and driving an hour and a half each way to get to work. To live on the PCH or hills requires closer to seven digits in income to even consider covering a mortgage.

 

[gro2001]

Some of these responses are way off. I don't mean the salary bits, I mean the lack of Los Angeles knowledge. One statement was that if you're making in the high 100K's to low 200K's that you're "middle class in LA". No, you're not. I literally just signed up for this site to help out the original post navigate the lack of socal knowledge in this thread.

If you make 60K a year here (LA, born and raised) you're middle class. I don't care for statistical google findings. I actually live here. If you and or your sig other are making 190K you're doing just fine. Like living near a golf course just fine. Will you be living off pch or in the Hollywood hills? No. But will you even know what middle class food tastes like? Absolutely not, that's absurd. If you're looking for golden laced bath towels and heated tiles on your balcony over looking the ol' vineyard, then you guys signed up for the wrong gig.

But yes, the traffic is horrific.

Sorry, but are you an attending? I assume the answer must be no, because that is the only way you can be so wrong about this.

I think is impossible to be making 60k/year almost anywhere in the country and live a middle class lifestyle having graduated with typical medical school debt. Unless you really stretch the definition of middle class.

Taxes: $60,000/year in CA will mean paying around $19,000 in taxes. That leaves around $41,000 post tax.

Student loans: Median physician student loan debt in the US is $180,000-220,000 (depending how you count, how it's financed and what sources you look at) and median monthly payments end up being $1,600-2,700. Once again, wide range due to various financing options, but lets take a nice round (and lowish) number like $2,000/month. That's $24,000/year, leaving $17,000/year post tax and medical student debt.

Rent: Median rent for a one bedroom in LA is $1,900. So after you pay taxes, medical school debt and rent on a median one bedroom apartment, you will have negative $5,800 left.

So post taxes and medical school debt, you won't be able to afford even a one bedroom apartment. That is decidedly not middle class.

 

[alpinism]

Lol.

I think the point other posters were trying to make was that compared to other cities, the take home pay for EM in LA is crazy low after adjusting for the tax rate and cost of living. While 172K in LA might not be middle class, you certainly won't be living in a private gated community or driving a new porche 911 turbo.

 

[KnowYourNeuro]

It's strange to have someone assume so much, with such confidence...and be so wrong. Lol. So let me again clarify for you. I didn't say 60K a year along with the loans we accrue from school would provide a middle class living. 60K a year without those loans have and currently do for many. Also, your play by play cost of living was a solid waste of time. What I am saying is it's absurd to consider ones self middle class when you're earning close to 200K per year. It seems the responses from my post enraged the country club kids that had daddy pay for medschool. I currently live, and have always lived in LA county. Burbank, Granda Hills, Northridge, Santa Clarita (where you can live near a golf course for 200K a year; hence near, like I said the first time- try to keep up), and many other towns strung throughout the county. All of which just under six figures provides a nice middle class living. No, you could NOT live in the hills like I stated and was misquoted, but that's not what the original post was concerned with.

The entire direction if this thread was pointing to stay out of LA due to the cost of living. Absolutely you are right to say it's more expensive here. To then say to not practice medicine here because you'll be living middle class is still, absurd.

 

[doggydog]

I think the real question is why you created an account, uploaded a picture, then bumped a five-year old thread?

 

[markcinnn]

I think he's confusing "median income" for "middle class income". I understand that people have subjective definitions of middle class but $60k-in-LA is so far out of bounds that there's something else. Very quick googling gives me ranges of $96k (Retirement CheatSheet) to $147k (Marketplace.org) for middle class lifestyle in LA. With medical school debt and delayed income (and the avg. age of med school grads is creeping up every year) adding 20k a year to make it $116k - 177k seems resonable. Of course not an easy way to earn a middle class lifestyle!

 

[KP2AZ]

Reading this, it just seems odd to be making 190K as an EM, which pays more in pretty much every other part of the country. Plus high taxes. That puts you at about FP pay in most of the country. Not judging, just shocked to hear.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[RustedFox]

My good buddy from residency and father of my Goddaughter lives and works in LA. Guy grinds shifts like none other. Pay isn't that great, he says. Also, he doesn't hang anything heavy on the walls, he says.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Reading this, it just seems odd to be making 190K as an EM, which pays more in pretty much every other part of the country. Plus high taxes. That puts you at about FP pay in most of the country. Not judging, just shocked to hear.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Exhibit 542 about why practicing in California is probably a bad idea. I love California, but I always find it surprising that any doctors actually live and work there.
- Low pay
- High cost of living
- High taxes

I mean, in most fields, at least you get paid more in California. But medicine? Nope.

 

[Apollyon]

My good buddy from residency and father of my Goddaughter lives and works in LA.

Isn't that a little bit ironic?

 

[RustedFox]

Isn't that a little bit ironic?

It's ironic that my buddy picked me to play a big part in his child's life?

 

[Apollyon]

It's ironic that my buddy picked me to play a big part in his child's life?

That you are an atheist. My concept of "godparent" was to raise the child in the faith, if the parents are unable.

But you know exactly to what I was referring. If you are not atheistic, and are actually a believer, then my most sincere apologies.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

My curious question is, have rates moved one way or another from the $100-120/hr that General Veers quoted all the way back in 2010?

 

[RustedFox]

Ah. "Secular Godparent", then. They profess/observe no faith. I now remember our theism debate; that was good forum posting.

Stir the posts. Stir the pot.