How much can you make starting out of residency?

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Just saw a CRNA open position on LinkedIn, 200-250k salary with 500k retention bonus. LOL wut. Meanwhile our PP pods are paying associates 80-100k to perform surgery, take trauma call, work 7 days a week, cover 4 satellite offices, etc for 80-100k + possible bonus.. No way man. Had I known all of this I would have become a nurse/PA and basked in the 3-4 day work week. We don't deserve this kind of headache for the amount of stuff we provide for the hospital/community. Our leadership is lacking 100%.
At this point the only thing I can do to level the playing field is work as little as possible (minimal surgery, no call, no weekends) while still being in that 150k range and then go find other avenues in life to generate income to eventually transition out of podiatry entirely. Seeing some nurses annihilate us in compensation is honestly so humiliating and I'm not even someone who cares about money all that much. It's just a hard pill to swallow to see how all that time and effort didn't really pay off in a gratifying way.

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Move on. Review your contract. Is it still in effect (my initial contract was set to be 3 years)? Even if you ask for 50% of the practice for free tomorrow he'll still want you to buy the other half in a few years at something inflated.

You've unfortunately put yourself in a situation where you haven't learned what you should about how a practice works. I don't mean this in a mean way so I'll clarify further. Some people on this forum - Feli, 619 etc have posted in the past that everyone should work as an associate for just a little to learn some lessons on someone else's dime. The problem is - you haven't learned any lessons because you haven't seen the books. A significant portion of what you learn about billing is to see what a practice gets paid and how a practice gets paid. I have Athena (overcharging douchebags) and I can see the entirety of the billing threads / how the appeals happen / what insurance says when they fight you etc. I could see these things from the get go so I knew that when I saw good insurance I sometimes got $400 for a new nail surgery in the office. When I saw that - I knew I offered a service of value. A service that even if I wasn't extremely busy could still translate into real earnings if expenses are controlled. I learned other interesting things like even dreary nail callus stuff done in the office is actually worth something if the patient has a callus, Medicare, and the service is rendered appropriately and efficiently. It ain't hospital people money - but it crushes the $25 an hour I made working for a corp for 3 years before podiatry school.

This is interesting. Our EMR has a "billing" portion that's actually restricted. I've asked about it several times only to be told to focus more so on clinical....the owner stated that I shouldn't worry too much about numbers because I'm not an owner yet..again early on I was like ok whatever maybe this is normal...and what he's saying makes sense...at the time at least ...obviously now as my frustrations have been growing I saw that wasn't the case. And your statement actually sheds some light...perhaps it was by design....maybe he knew associates would do this on "his dime", so he just restricted access.
Part of me still wants to believe you are a troll (sorry) because I don't understand how we could have such a shared experience and you just can't see the value in yourself.

Man I wish I was a troll lol unfortunately every word I'm typing on here is 110% true. Im just venting out these issues on here because I'm trying to learn from you all.
I'm also just dumbfounded by your hours.

I do zero inpatient work. I do zero nursing homes. I do zero weekends. I do my surgeries on my surgery day and I go home. If I don't have surgery I take the day off. I take 1/2 of Friday off. I almost never work through lunch. I regularly get 1-1.5 hours at home at lunch with family cause I live 6 minutes from my job. I see 20-25 patients on T-R. I'm under the impression this is how most people function most places. If you aren't hospital employed this is what you should be doing. I have max 1-2 inefficient days a month where I do my surgeries at a county hospital. Thankfully some of these surgeries are on one of the best insurances I accept. I get a lot of new patients from nurses and surgery techs I interact with at the hospital for good bread and butter.

So my hours.....our office has pretty standard hours....8-5 is when we see patients. Surgeries are usually on Fridays . My office hours all also intertwined with the NH, assisted living, etc. Consults are regular. I squeeze them in pre office or after office depending on when I can make it. sometimes lunch. I also live about an hour away so commute time is factored as well. believe it or not, I'm on staff at about 7 hospitals. Some call more than others. Some never call. But I have been to them all. I would say maybe 4-5 of them consult us pretty routinely. All nonsense stuff. Wounds, nails, infections, amps. Ortho has a big pull so not much trauma. Doesn't matter tho I could care less. I only cared for that stuff when I needed cases. But now I know that some of these cases aren't worth the time , financially. (not that I get a percentage, but still)
This really shouldn't be a bad job. Yes, insurance is going to hell. But PP people should make $200 (or more depending on how hard they work) and live very straight forward outpatient lives. The hospital based people should make $100-150K more but have terrible lives, get divorced a lot and lose all the money. That's how medicine is supposed to work.
 
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This is interesting. Our EMR has a "PM" portion that's actually restricted. I've asked about it several times only for the office manager to tell me that it doesn't matter and to just focus on the "medicine"....the owner himself stated that the actual books aren't my concern because I'm not an owner and have no vested interest....again early on I was like ok whatever maybe this is normal...and what he's saying makes sense...at the time at least ...obviously now as my frustrations have been growing I saw that wasn't the case. And your statement actually sheds some light...perhaps it was by design....maybe he knew associates would do this on "his dime", so he just restricted access.


Man I wish I was a troll lol unfortunately every word I'm typing on here is 110% true. Im just venting out these issues on here because I'm trying to learn from you all. My decision is pretty clear...I need to leave and will need to plan...


So my hours.....our office has pretty standard hours....9-5 is when we see patients. Surgeries are on Fridays . My office hours all also intertwined with the NH, assisted living, etc. Consults are regular. I squeeze them in pre office or after office depending on when I can make it. I also live about an hour away so commute time is factored as well. believe it or not, I'm on staff at about 7 hospitals. Some call more than others. Some never call. But I have been to them all. I would say maybe 4-5 of them consult us pretty routinely. All nonsense stuff. Wounds, nails, infections, amps. Ortho has a big pull so not much trauma. Doesn't matter tho I could care less. I only cared for that stuff when I needed cases. But now I know that some of these cases aren't worth the time , financially. (not that I get a percentage, but still)
This story just keeps getting worse…….how many different ways you have been getting screwed for so long.

This is almost all the cons of being a PP associate other than him teaching you to bill fraudulently and letting you take the risk for that also.
 
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Man, working that hard and only grossing $500K?? Must be a horrible payer mix. From the hours, I would have guessed $800-$900K. I feel you though. Doing 75% of the work for less than 25% of the total money is all too familiar. My hours sound better than your's, and I'm bringing in more---but it doesn't matter, cause I'm probably making the same percentage you are on my total collections. I too have been with my Pod Master for 6 years and getting out--leaving private practice and never looking back. Maybe 6 years is the golden number--that's how long it takes to realize you can't be a slave anymore...

One thing you didn't specify, Podgod--is the owner's wife heavily involved in the practice? That's the only thing that could make this story worse.
 
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If the owner won’t show you the books during your interview DO NOT ACCEPT THE JOB. PERIOD.

If you are still desperate to take the job and the owner won’t let you see the books while employed YOU ARE GETTING PLAYED.

This story has every single red flag we have ever talked about in this forum.

This is ugly
 
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...Today I'm easily at 25-35 depending on the day....
...easily bringing in upwards of 400-500k in production. Never missed a beat or a days of work...
This is your problem right there: your revenue per visit is WAY too low. HardRoad caught it too.

I don't think I've ever brought in less than 400k in a full-time year - even first year out (when I was inefficient, didn't know billing much, didn't max out services, owner was giving me the lesser payer pts and MCAs, I was somewhat awkward and ignorant to doing procedures, etc). That also includes other years of offices that were sending out all DME (basically owned a store that I got no piece of), ones that didn't have ultrasound, skeleton-staffed with newest MA or even no MA on some days, a clinic that was mostly MCA immigrants, startup from scratch, etc. They all beat those marks. You should still easily crush that 400k just on E&M, proc, injects, wounds, surgery.... all else the office may have for you to utilize is gravy (u/s, grafts, DME, otc, ABIs, wraps, various testing, etc etc).

With the numberts above, you also might have crap payers, you may be being cheated (or office does a spectacularly bad job billing/collection), but regardless, your revenue per visit is only like $70 per (500k on 30pts per day 20days/mo). That is pit-i-fullllllllllllll. Did I mention you're probably being cheated? The pt volume is average or even a bit above, but the per visit collection is horse. That $70 is basically a 99213 and nothing else (imaging, DME, otc, injects, procedures, etc). That will never work in a PP - no matter how hard you do. Most groups would fire someone who was that minimally productive if they couldn't help teach them to produce more.

The recurring bad actors in PP are: low volume, low services/tools to ramp collections, low staffing, bad owner, others. Be aware.
Even in a clearly good pod PP (or MSG or ortho or anywhere), it's good to keep track of how many pts per month you see, roughly how many of each common code you do, and make sure things line up in reasonable proximity to what the collections reports you are given contain. Always have a loose pulse on your per visit and your month/quarter/annual totals.

To keep track of your numbers, it's not hard. You don't need EMR billing access. Take MCR rough rates (depends much on locality and payer mix).
For easy math, use RVU, count MCR rate since privates are usually better and MCA worse, MCR is a fair RVUs measuring stick:
>visits 99203 = 3.3rvu, 99213 = 2.7, 99214 = 3.7
>derm 11721 = 1.3, 11730 = 3.4, 11750 = 4.7 ... 11056 = 2.5, 17110 = 3.4
>injects 20550, 20600, 64455 are all about = 1.6 (use appropriate steroid code for a few bucks more)
>xray 73610 = 0.9, 73630 = 0.8
>surgery and DME is highly variable based on area payers (be in PP in a good area, work hospital in a bad... just like MDs do)
...so, it's obviously slightly dynamic YOY, but 1.0 MCR rvu = roughly $34 today.

Collection % of what you billed out for means jack (since price billed is arbitrary). Track your rvu production vs what collections are. Assume "flub factor" of a quarter or a third of the RVUs you do won't get paid (good vs bad insurance area, copay not paid, deductibles not paid, biller skill level, procedures reduced or rejected, modifiers, random luck, etc). Don't ever settle for "well, sure you did a lot, but we were only able to collect 30% of what you billed out, so ---." Know roughly how many RVUs you did, what an RVU is worth, multiply 0.7 or so based on payer demographic... and you have a fairly good ballpark as to what your collections should be. If it's ever under 0.5 of the quarter or annual RVUs you did seeming to get paid (after you've been there for a bit), that is a red flag.

That is the breaks of PP versus hospital jobs: hospital FTE typically has far fewer ways to do RVUs themselves and gets less wRVU (but more $ for each wRVU as a reward of sorts for all the facility fees and imaging and refers the hospital gobbles up from their FTE doc ordering/sending it), but their big strength as hospital FTE is that cushy base and that their RVUs are often paid whether collected or not.

Alternatively, PP wins on many ways to produce and roughly 3x or more RVU ("non-facility RVU" for clinic) for the same procedures, potential for more per hour (esp with good payers), and generally less or no call... but collections are all that matters in PP (whereas just doing a lot of stuff makes bonus in most hospital jobs). Track the RVUs constantly, convert them for expected collections, and look for missed work you did or ways to bump your per visit averages. It even helps to track wRVU or look for more per visit in some hospital jobs, but usually only to a small degree when compared to PP.

Assuming you see as many patients as you say, are doing any decent number of proc (even C&C proc), and there is even half-decent insurance in your area, something is way off. That should be readily apparent... unless your office doesn't have xray, or nail nippers, or 15 blades, or phenol. I would imagine it does. But what's done is done. Learn the lesson and MOVE ON. It doesn't matter what it exactly is at this point holding your annual and per visit low; look for other work or start up solo if you can do that financially and based on non-compete.

Find a better-equipped office to succeed at or start your own (if you like PP relaxed hours and gig), or find a hospital/MSG job. Don't worry about the patients; they are the responsibility of the practice - not you. Take all of the above as constructive and motivation for next situation. Good luck :thumbup:
 
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This is interesting. Our EMR has a "billing" portion that's actually restricted. I've asked about it several times only to be told to focus more so on clinical....the owner stated that I shouldn't worry too much about numbers because I'm not an owner yet..again early on I was like ok whatever maybe this is normal...and what he's saying makes sense...at the time at least ...obviously now as my frustrations have been growing I saw that wasn't the case. And your statement actually sheds some light...perhaps it was by design....maybe he knew associates would do this on "his dime", so he just restricted access.


Man I wish I was a troll lol unfortunately every word I'm typing on here is 110% true. Im just venting out these issues on here because I'm trying to learn from you all.


So my hours.....our office has pretty standard hours....8-5 is when we see patients. Surgeries are usually on Fridays . My office hours all also intertwined with the NH, assisted living, etc. Consults are regular. I squeeze them in pre office or after office depending on when I can make it. sometimes lunch. I also live about an hour away so commute time is factored as well. believe it or not, I'm on staff at about 7 hospitals. Some call more than others. Some never call. But I have been to them all. I would say maybe 4-5 of them consult us pretty routinely. All nonsense stuff. Wounds, nails, infections, amps. Ortho has a big pull so not much trauma. Doesn't matter tho I could care less. I only cared for that stuff when I needed cases. But now I know that some of these cases aren't worth the time , financially. (not that I get a percentage, but still)

Truly mind boggling that you stuck around for 6 years being used like this. The amount of slave labor that you are doing now would translate to roughly a 350-400k take-home pretax at an ortho/MSG/hospital.
 
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This is depressing. I also have a good friend from school, well trained, smart - couple years out and also in a similar situation where the owner will not let him look at the numbers and books. I’ve tried to hint a while ago that’s a red flag but not sure if they fully understood…..
 
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Something just made me think of this.....but not all Ortho jobs are created equal. Most MSG are. Working for an Ortho group is not as lucrative as many think. The large Ortho groups where you get ASC, MRI, PT etc.... very very likely have a Ortho FA and a pod just cleans up or is limited. Midsize might have an ASC. Very small - 3 to 4 orthos and pod likely don't have these things so essentially it is PP. Take me for instance. It is me and 2 Ortho and a NP. No ASC, no Imaging not PT. Now we are working on an ASC, but even though I work for an "Ortho" group I am dependent on everything that PP pods are. Fortunately I live in the middle of nowhere and we have amazing contracts and I get paid 1800 by BCBS to do a brostrom....also I think I have seen maybe 4 or 5 Medicare advantage plans in 1.5 years.
 
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Something just made me think of this.....but not all Ortho jobs are created equal. Most MSG are. Working for an Ortho group is not as lucrative as many think. The large Ortho groups where you get ASC, MRI, PT etc.... very very likely have a Ortho FA and a pod just cleans up or is limited. Midsize might have an ASC. Very small - 3 to 4 orthos and pod likely don't have these things so essentially it is PP. Take me for instance. It is me and 2 Ortho and a NP. No ASC, no Imaging not PT. Now we are working on an ASC, but even though I work for an "Ortho" group I am dependent on everything that PP pods are. Fortunately I live in the middle of nowhere and we have amazing contracts and I get paid 1800 by BCBS to do a brostrom....also I think I have seen maybe 4 or 5 Medicare advantage plans in 1.5 years.
Working for a small orthopedic group is no different than being a private practice podiatrist in my opinion. The only difference is that you MAY get more volume right off the bat simply because it is an "ortho group" but you will still deal with the common headaches a PP podiatrist does.

I love coming across orthopedic jobs looking for a podiatrist and it is only the orthopedic owner and the only other provider is a PA/APRN. Do you think this "ortho job" is going to pay you that much? Absolutely not. They will most likely start you off on a low base and the rest of your money will come from hitting certain productivity bonuses. I guess what remains to be seen is if they will screw you over on those bonuses as badly as a crusty old mustache podiatrist would. I would have to assume they are a little more ethical so being employed in this kind of group dynamic would be a more tolerable and fair.

This comes to another key point. If you review your contract and you really can NOT understand how you make bonus based on what is written then this is a major red flag. If you discuss this bonus structure during the interview and you do not understand what they are saying then this is a red flag. It really should be straight forward stuff and not some convoluted equation designed to distract and confuse you so it is harder to get your well earned money.
 
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Working for a small orthopedic group is no different than being a private practice podiatrist in my opinion. The only difference is that you MAY get more volume right off the bat simply because it is an "ortho group" but you will still deal with the common headaches a PP podiatrist does.

I love coming across orthopedic jobs looking for a podiatrist and it is only the orthopedic owner and the only other provider is a PA/APRN. Do you think this "ortho job" is going to pay you that much? Absolutely not. They will most likely start you off on a low base and the rest of your money will come from hitting certain productivity bonuses. I guess what remains to be seen is if they will screw you over on those bonuses as badly as a crusty old mustache podiatrist would. I would have to assume they are a little more ethical so being employed in this kind of group dynamic would be a more tolerable and fair.

This comes to another key point. If you review your contract and you really can NOT understand how you make bonus based on what is written then this is a major red flag. If you discuss this bonus structure during the interview and you do not understand what they are saying then this is a red flag. It really should be straight forward stuff and not some convoluted equation designed to distract and confuse you so it is harder to get your well earned money.
Agree. I deal with the same problems PP does. My contract is simple. My pay = collections less fixed overhead amount, 3 percent supplies and 6 percent billing (changing with new software....modmed I think?). No guarantee salary, in fact I have to pay for all my benefits and both sides of social security taxes. What I gain is walking in day one with full staffing, xray, legitimacy with public etc. I am in clinic 2.5 days a week, 1 day of surgery, no call off every Monday and made 320k last year. But lots of stress. Opening up solo here would be enormous risk due to upfront costs. Would go to the MSG or Hospital first before trying solo. It's a pretty easy sell to the hospital. Hey, look at these 200 cases I did last year that if I wasn't here they would all be shipped out. I have clearly demonstrated a huge need for a podiatrist. So if I leave they have to replace me. There are some other local politics going on where they would be inclined to lock in business at their facility.... anyways @CutsWithFury is right. Also his BFF in Texas is in a similar situation.

Edit: and that's without many podiometric stuff. I do hope to add in ABI and start doing more amnio, didn't do much last year. No interest in some of this other bull**** genetic testing, nor ultrasound or other things like that. Or smart socks. I do power steps no custom no bracing etc no diabetic shoes. Don't have the staff to do some of this type of stuff and mostly just don't have an interest in it
 
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There are many reasons money is a problem in our profession. Greed and overall declining reimbursements play a heavy roll. Saturation is the primary problem - everyone rural on this board speaks of reimbursements that are laughable to me (mid-size city). Saturation allows for greed. Saturation allows for insurance companies to pay pennies for high risk / high liability procedures. So why are we saturated?

CMS has no cap on podiatry residency positions. If you have hospital/admin support, you can start a podiatry residency anywhere and get federal funding. We can put out as many podiatrists as we want.

MD/DO has funding limits for residencies. It's harder to start a new program. This prevents over saturation. It also caused the physician shortage in the US.

Because we have unlimited funding, schools can maintain enrollment (if they can fill the spots) and open new schools because new residencies are relatively easy to make.

Until there is a cap on podiatry residency funding, we will only experience worsening saturation and likely lower reimbursement and subsequent pay. You just don't need 500+ new foot surgeons in the US a year.
 
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There are many reasons money is a problem in our profession. Greed and overall declining reimbursements play a heavy roll. Saturation is the primary problem - everyone rural on this board speaks of reimbursements that are laughable to me (mid-size city). Saturation allows for greed. Saturation allows for insurance companies to pay pennies for high risk / high liability procedures. So why are we saturated?

CMS has no cap on podiatry residency positions. If you have hospital/admin support, you can start a podiatry residency anywhere and get federal funding. We can put out as many podiatrists as we want.

MD/DO has funding limits for residencies. It's harder to start a new program. This prevents over saturation. It also caused the physician shortage in the US.

Because we have unlimited funding, schools can maintain enrollment (if they can fill the spots) and open new schools because new residencies are relatively easy to make.

Until there is a cap on podiatry residency funding, we will only experience worsening saturation and likely lower reimbursement and subsequent pay. You just don't need 500+ new foot surgeons in the US a year.
Our application pool is going down (minus 2020 - weird. People lost job and go back to school?)


Our class size is going up


The new Texas school does not look like its started yet. Thats sure to help the problem. Good old Harkless at it again!
 
Man, working that hard and only grossing $500K?? Must be a horrible payer mix. From the hours, I would have guessed $800-$900K. I feel you though. Doing 75% of the work for less than 25% of the total money is all too familiar. My hours sound better than your's, and I'm bringing in more---but it doesn't matter, cause I'm probably making the same percentage you are on my total collections. I too have been with my Pod Master for 6 years and getting out--leaving private practice and never looking back. Maybe 6 years is the golden number--that's how long it takes to realize you can't be a slave anymore...

One thing you didn't specify, Podgod--is the owner's wife heavily involved in the practice? That's the only thing that could make this story worse.
Yeah it’s getting increasingly frustrating at this point. I really am busting my a**. Where r u going after your 6 years? Man we make this sound like a sentence! Doing our time! Lol

As far as spouse goes, I’ll plead the fifth !
 
Move on. Review your contract. Is it still in effect (my initial contract was set to be 3 years)? Even if you ask for 50% of the practice for free tomorrow he'll still want you to buy the other half in a few years at something inflated.

You've unfortunately put yourself in a situation where you haven't learned what you should about how a practice works. I don't mean this in a mean way so I'll clarify further. Some people on this forum - Feli, 619 etc have posted in the past that everyone should work as an associate for just a little to learn some lessons on someone else's dime. The problem is - you haven't learned any lessons because you haven't seen the books. A significant portion of what you learn about billing is to see what a practice gets paid and how a practice gets paid. I have Athena (overcharging douchebags) and I can see the entirety of the billing threads / how the appeals happen / what insurance says when they fight you etc. I could see these things from the get go so I knew that when I saw good insurance I sometimes got $400 for a new nail surgery in the office. When I saw that - I knew I offered a service of value. A service that even if I wasn't extremely busy could still translate into real earnings if expenses are controlled. I learned other interesting things like even dreary nail callus stuff done in the office is actually worth something if the patient has a callus, Medicare, and the service is rendered appropriately and efficiently. It ain't hospital people money - but it crushes the $25 an hour I made working for a corp for 3 years before podiatry school.

I didn’t think of it like this but it makes a ton of sense. When I first started it was just hey just bill codes X Y and Z and nothing else. When I was wet behind the ears I was like oooh ok sounds good. Now I’m obviously questioning everything.
Part of me still wants to believe you are a troll (sorry) because I don't understand how we could have such a shared experience and you just can't see the value in yourself.

Well I’m seeing it now I think. When I started I always heard of the podiatry jobs that just didn’t pay ANYTHING. Small percentages , people getting cash in envelopes etc. Here I was like well pay is low maybe I can work hard and build up but at least the salary (albeit small) is stable and predictable. At the time it sounded great.
I'm also just dumbfounded by your hours.
I do zero inpatient work. I do zero nursing homes. I do zero weekends. I do my surgeries on my surgery day and I go home. If I don't have surgery I take the day off. I take 1/2 of Friday off. I almost never work through lunch. I regularly get 1-1.5 hours at home at lunch with family cause I live 6 minutes from my job. I see 20-25 patients on T-R. I'm under the impression this is how most people function most places. If you aren't hospital employed this is what you should be doing. I have max 1-2 inefficient days a month where I do my surgeries at a county hospital. Thankfully some of these surgeries are on one of the best insurances I accept. I get a lot of new patients from nurses and surgery techs I interact with at the hospital for good bread and butter.
This really shouldn't be a bad job. Yes, insurance is going to hell. But PP people should make $200 (or more depending on how hard they work) and live very straight forward outpatient lives. The hospital based people should make $100-150K more but have terrible lives, get divorced a lot and lose all the money. That's how medicine is supposed to work.
 
If he has not given you any raises or allows discussion to become a partner then he is PLAYING you. He will never give you what you deserve. He wants you to quit so he can take over your patients and find the next associate to take your place.

Partner discussions have been there. But it almost seems like the pricing will INCLUDE the value I’ve brought in. So I’m buying my own work. And like I said i don’t think I can be tied down here any longer than I have been.
You should have gotten a raise 2-3 years after you started. I can not believe you stuck with this guy for 6 years making under 100K.

Woah
Yeah me too :/
 
Any CEO at a rural Hospital with Ortho operating consistently who doesn't have a pod is not doing their job. It is your job to educate them on why to hire you at 300k plus. Pulled my numbers. 85 cases so far for the year. Let's say we pull from 40k or so. And that is me not doing ankle fxs but all other foot fx. Lots of people on here doing more than me but that's in a larger area. 150 plus new surgeries a year plus lots of inpatient stuff/revenue is making a hospital millions a year.

Have done another 20 or so at other outreach hospitals
 
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