How much do clinical grades matter in the context of variation from school to school?

[deleted1139416]

My school gives everyone a high pass for just showing up on time and not being a dingus. But it’s extremely hard to get honors. So 95% of grades are HP and the rest are Honors, Pass, Not Pass. But some schools hand out honors like candy. So how much do residencies really care?

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[Putkernerinthehall]

How do you know how your school typically grades? Is that just what you heard ?

Doesn't it vary significantly from one rotation to the next ?

 

[deleted1139416]

How do you know how your school typically grades? Is that just what you heard ?

Doesn't it vary significantly from one rotation to the next ?

I’ve been told from one of the clinical directors that the school carefully tracks how often each attending is giving honors and asks them to tone it down if they are giving honors too often. Our school also specified criteria for high pass which is simply showing up and meeting the minimum criteria. This creates a buffer between High Pass and Non-Pass which allows the attending to give a simple Pass to students who don’t meet minimum criteria without failing them, if that makes sense?

 

[FalconSlice]

My school gives everyone a high pass for just showing up on time and not being a dingus. But it’s extremely hard to get honors. So 95% of grades are HP and the rest are Honors, Pass, Not Pass. But some schools hand out honors like candy. So how much do residencies really care?

Your clinical grades will be presented in the context of the scores of the overall class in your dean's letter.

Residencies care. Caveat being depending on the specialty and also the individual program, their amount of care varies.

In my field of plastic surgery, we care a lot about everything.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I’ve been told from one of the clinical directors that the school carefully tracks how often each attending is giving honors and asks them to tone it down if they are giving honors too often. Our school also specified criteria for high pass which is simply showing up and meeting the minimum criteria. This creates a buffer between High Pass and Non-Pass which allows the attending to give a simple Pass to students who don’t meet minimum criteria without failing them, if that makes sense?

So let me get this straight. They set minimum criteria for passing. Then give everyone a HP who meets those criteria. Leaving the Pass grade for people who don't meet the passing criteria. Does that make sense?

 

[deleted1139416]

So let me get this straight. They set minimum criteria for passing. Then give everyone a HP who meets those criteria. Leaving the Pass grade for people who don't meet the passing criteria. Does that make sense?

Exactly - it’s their way of allowing struggling students to still pass the rotation so that they don’t have to repeat it. A failing grade is reserved for students who have severe transgressions like not showing up to the rotation, or being wildly unprofessional.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Apparently sarcasm does not travel well over the interwebs.

If people pass a rotation despite not meeting the passing criteria, there's a problem.

 

[deleted1139416]

Apparently sarcasm does not travel well over the interwebs.

If people pass a rotation despite not meeting the passing criteria, there's a problem.

Here’s how I think it works:

Fail: Not attending the rotation, failing the shelf, wildly unprofessional, or harassing staff or patients

Pass: Students who struggle considerably with oral presentations or writing notes, or students who don’t get along with staff or show up consistently late

High Pass: Students who show up on time, and who are able to put together a decent presentation by the end of the rotation

Honors: Students who walk on water

The school recognizes High Pass as the minimum level of where a student should be for their level of training. Students who struggle get a Pass while the disaster students get a Fail. In other words, the school says that students should at least be at a “B” but struggling students can still pass by getting a “C” but the terrible students get an “F”.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Apparently the internet is not the problem.

I get the point, we can move on.

 

[deleted1139416]

Apparently the internet is not the problem.

I get the point, we can move on.

I disagree with your earlier point. A lot of med schools let struggling students pass.

 

[candbgirl]

I disagree with your earlier point. A lot of med schools let struggling students pass.

How could you possibly know this? 🙁

 

[deleted1139416]

How could you possibly know this? 🙁

How hard is it to fail a 3rd year clerkship?

Started my first clerkship (OBGYN) recently and I'm TRYING to do what I can and enjoy it/make the most out of it. However, sometimes I feel a little (a lot) incompetent, stupid, and slow. I have started studying and I will make sure I pass the shelf, as that's something I can partially control...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[operaman]

My school gives everyone a high pass for just showing up on time and not being a dingus. But it’s extremely hard to get honors. So 95% of grades are HP and the rest are Honors, Pass, Not Pass. But some schools hand out honors like candy. So how much do residencies really care?

Residencies definitely care. Clinical grades say very little about how strong you are clinically, but they do say a lot about how well you get along with people and function on a team.

Grades come with a histo that shows how hard it is to get to that definitely gets figured in to the mix. Some schools have their own terminology entirely where honors isn’t even the highest designation. It does seem that I’m hearing of more schools changing to pass/honors/honors with distinction or highest honors or some variation where honors is the new HP.

If only 5% of students get an H, I would expect strong students there to have at least a couple of them but would be more understanding of the straight HP applicant. Contrast to a school where 30% of the class gets honors in which case I would expect strong applicants to have nearly all Hs. Strong students somehow always manage to distinguish themselves as such.

Remember this is coming from the perspective of a hyper competitive field where scored step averages were 90th percentile. Most of our IIs went to applicants with all or nearly all Hs in addition to overall strong apps.

 

[WannaBeAnMD1212]

What about schools that don't offer the HP? My school only offers honors, pass, and fail. Getting honors is extremely difficult. Will that hurt my classmates and I when applying to rotations? I go to a DO school. Do residencies consider that HP may not even be possible?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

What about schools that don't offer the HP? My school only offers honors, pass, and fail. Getting honors is extremely difficult. Will that hurt my classmates and I when applying to rotations? I go to a DO school. Do residencies consider that HP may not even be possible?

Yes, your school will include that information in their MSPE. So residencies will know what % of students get H, and take that into account. And if your school is H/P/F we'll see that also. Each program can decide what they want to do with the information.

 

[aldol16]

They care, but not that much. As you've noticed, there is large variation between schools with respect to how clinical grades are determined. Some schools will base it almost entirely off the shelf while others will weigh other things more heavily. However, the general gestalt and trends are important. Residencies will compare students from the same school. So that's the first important thing - your grades should reflect your performance relative to other students from your school. After that, it's more a matter of how you're doing on Step 2 and things like that.

For the specialty you're going into, you should still strive to be that 1% that gets the honors grade for that rotation.

 

[aldol16]

Grades come with a histo that shows how hard it is to get to that definitely gets figured in to the mix. Some schools have their own terminology entirely where honors isn’t even the highest designation. It does seem that I’m hearing of more schools changing to pass/honors/honors with distinction or highest honors or some variation where honors is the new HP.

Grades definitely don't always come with a histogram. The MSPE varies based on institution and some may report it, some may not. Even if they do, it's questionable how much programs look into these things because the MSPE is many many pages long and it's very hard to look at data from 7-10 clerkships and gauge how well a student is doing clinically. That's why standardized exam scores are important. For instance, is a student who honors OBGYN, high passes IM and surgery, and passes psych doing better than a student who high passes all 4 of those?

 

[esob]

Ideally, your MSPE comments will be part of the equation in evaluating your application from a clinical perspective.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Sounds like OP attend a school that has clinical grade inflaction. Hopefully, PDs will see this from other metrics. Six honors, or high pass, with a poor Step 2 score is not going to look good still.