How much do Vets really make?

[Angelo84]

Chickenlittle and Bill--

Do your opinions change at all when considering a private practice internship (high caseload) as opposed to an academic internship or if a person is planning to go into emergency work?

Clearly doesn't matter for me at this point and I fully see your point of most internships may not get you sufficient (or any depending on the intership) time in GP to make that year of experience valuable in terms of how comfortable a internship trained grad will be handling GP work. I know at a chunk of the way through I am not confident with dental extractions, skin that is not easily fixed, although I am fine with spays/neuters. Luckily I am not planning on GP work!

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[chickenlittle]

My opinions don't really change much based on the specific internship. I'm not entirely "anti-internship".... it's just that, all other factors being equal, I'm going to rate one year of private practice experience higher than a year of internship.

Now if we get into the interview and it turns out that the private practice person was seeing 45-minute appointments while the internship-trained grad was seeing 25 patients per day, my opinions may change. Likewise if the person who had worked in GP has the personality of a dishrag while the internship-trained doc is friendly/personable/etc. I'm sure there are plenty of scenarios where I would choose an internship-trained doc over one with one year of practice experience, but I'm strictly talking about first impressions of internship vs. job at this point. At first glance, a year of general practice looks better on a resume than an internship (to me... in my particular hospital... with my particular clientele). Would I hire an internship-trained doctor? Sure, if they interviewed well and seemed to be a good fit. Would I pay them higher than someone with a year of practice experience? Nope.

Having never worked in emergency medicine, I can't really comment on what those hiring for that side of things would look for. I'd imagine that an internship may be more valuable in that setting, but I really don't know.

 

[laurafinn]

Do you guys know of anybody who is outright impoverished because of their loan payments?

I would be if I wasn't on IBR. $800/month is doable -- the full amount, even at 30 years repayment, not so much. Also, I cannot afford to live anywhere in San Francisco, even with my loan payments reduced. That said, I have a job I love in the Bay Area and that's saying a lot in this economy. So there is hope!

 

[breenie]

Questions re: internships.

I've heard from equine practitioner and students looking to go purely into equine, that an internship before going into practice is starting to become a more normal/almost expected thing?

Any insight on this? The local vet I use fell into equine by way of mixed animal, but I keep hearing that internship --> employment referred to as "standard" for equine veterinarians.

 

[Chinola]

Questions re: internships.

I've heard from equine practitioner and students looking to go purely into equine, that an internship before going into practice is starting to become a more normal/almost expected thing?

Any insight on this? The local vet I use fell into equine by way of mixed animal, but I keep hearing that internship --> employment referred to as "standard" for equine veterinarians.

I rode along with an Ohio State grad in Florida. He's an equine vet, only about 2 years out of school. He did a one year internship and told me that that's the only reason he got the job he has. He really pushed that internships are a must do in that field. He didn't do an academic internship. It was a rotating internship at a big private hospital out west somewhere.

 

[breenie]

I rode along with an Ohio State grad in Florida. He's an equine vet, only about 2 years out of school. He did a one year internship and told me that that's the only reason he got the job he has. He really pushed that internships are a must do in that field. He didn't do an academic internship. It was a rotating internship at a big private hospital out west somewhere.

Yeah, this is the kind of stuff I'm hearing.

 

[Bill59]

Makes sense to me.

I think it's somewhat ironic that you're using AVMA data that earlier you were implying is suspect.

I think you're confusing me with another poster.

 

[LetItSnow]

I think you're confusing me with another poster.

Indeed, it was chickenlittle! Clearly, all this studying is making my brain function more poorly rather than more skillfully. My apologies.

 

[redhorse]

Breenie and Chinola...just wondering, do you know if the equine grads are doing internships and still making the dismal 45K starting salary I keep seeing in the polls/surveys.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Breenie and Chinola...just wondering, do you know if the equine grads are doing internships and still making the dismal 45K starting salary I keep seeing in the polls/surveys.

Equine interns making 45K? Seriously? Color me impressed. Most interns get 25-30K. Heck, I'm in residency and I only make 31K.

Edit: Whoops. Long day, misunderstood the question. That's a craptastic starting salary post-internship...I mean, we as vets don't get paid much anyway, but the figures I was hearing with SA grads is more like 50 to 60K.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I think the perception is that an internship does not provide as much "real world" experience as a year in private practice. I actually don't think this is an accurate perception but that's the perception most practice owners seem to have.

From my experience working with new associate vets who completed a year internship before being hired, it is pretty accurate - In my experience they didn't make better clinical vets than other associates who spent that year in private practice. That's about an academic internship in companion animal medicine - it might be different for some other niches (I think swine and poultry?).

 

[Ben and Me]

On the other hand, I feel as though I've met several vets who took a job out of vet school that provided no mentorship and absolutely ruined their self-confidence (even 3-4 years later). Who knows though -- these vets may have had self-esteem issues beforehand, but I can't imagine being in a negative, "every-man-for-himself" environment helped.

In many cases, I feel like internships should be a "sure thing" -- you can talk to past interns, extern at the practice, and get a pretty good feel of what you're getting yourself in to.

If you're hired by a practice that hasn't hired a new associate in 10+ years, you really have no idea what you're getting yourself in to, and you could potentially end up in a less than desirable situation. Everyone can talk about mentorship, but you really could end up getting thrown to the wolves. I think doing your homework and knowing the type of practice you're joining can make a huge difference in your happiness, competence and comfort down the road.

Most equine internships pay between $20,000 and $30,000 depending on the other benefits provided. Most folks agree that an equine internship is a good idea. As for the $45K starting salary...I've never been able to determine whether that "Starting Salary" includes those who do an internship or not. I could see how the starting salary (excluding internships) could only be $45,000 though -- until you get well-established in the practice, you're known as the "new vet" -- and no horse person wants the "new vet." It's pretty different from small animal practice where you (generally) show up and get the vet that you get. Horse owners get pretty attached to their vet and until you're established in the community (and get a good reputation), folks aren't going to call you first. If you're paid on production, I could easily see how your salary might only be $45,000.

 

[laurafinn]

I could see how the starting salary (excluding internships) could only be $45,000 though -- until you get well-established in the practice, you're known as the "new vet" -- and no horse person wants the "new vet." It's pretty different from small animal practice where you (generally) show up and get the vet that you get. Horse owners get pretty attached to their vet and until you're established in the community (and get a good reputation), folks aren't going to call you first. If you're paid on production, I could easily see how your salary might only be $45,000.

This brings up a good point. Even if it not as true for small animal people as for horse people, the longer you are at one practice, the more clients will consider you "their vet," and the older - on average - their pets will be (because as the new vet, the established clients ask for their favorite vet, so you get the new clients with the puppies and kittens by default). So if you are paid on production, you will make more money the longer you stay at one place, as you gain more of your own clients and your patients age and begin to have health problems. So that could be one argument for going directly into practice - you get an extra year of client bonding time.

On the other hand, coming out of an internship, you may be more confident in suggesting aggressive, comprehensive diagnostic and treatment plans, so you could make more production that way.

So moneywise, it could go either way.

 

[jtom]

I could see how the starting salary (excluding internships) could only be $45,000 though -- until you get well-established in the practice, you're known as the "new vet" -- and no horse person wants the "new vet." It's pretty different from small animal practice where you (generally) show up and get the vet that you get. Horse owners get pretty attached to their vet and until you're established in the community (and get a good reputation), folks aren't going to call you first. If you're paid on production, I could easily see how your salary might only be $45,000.

Yea horse clients are more picky about who their vet is and also if the vet is a true horse person. I have seen new vets at our clinic who were not horse people from childhood and when they go to calls if the client gets the vibe that they have not been around horses most of their life, they will not call them back again, regardless of how they treated their horse.

Just last week we got a call that a horse went down and the owner thought it had broken something. The owner, a long time horse client of our vet, called frantically before opening to get the vet and owner of the clinic out to treat it. The vet/owner of the clinic comes in later in the day and woudlnt be in until much later. The receptionist offered to send out one of our new vets, a 2011 grad (concentrated in equine) and the client refused to allow anyone but the owner vet to look at her horse. The client called the owner vet and he said he could not be out there until lunch time and to allow the new vet to see her horse. The owner declined and left the horse out in pasture until that afternoon when the owner vet could see him.

 

[su_grad2007]

Yea horse clients are more picky about who their vet is and also if the vet is a true horse person. I have seen new vets at our clinic who were not horse people from childhood and when they go to calls if the client gets the vibe that they have not been around horses most of their life, they will not call them back again, regardless of how they treated their horse.

Yeah, I met an equine vet who didn't work with horses until vet school and decided to become an equine vet, but she definitely had to go above and beyond anything you would have to do in small animal medicine in order to develop a following and it definitely took a while. She basically immersed herself in the equine culture going to competitions, races, etc. She started doing dressage to I think. But it took several years before they really considered her a horse person.

 

[smallbiz2doc]

To address some of the points mentioned above:

- I know a number of people who were promised pay that was not delivered. Some of these were instances of production-based pay where the owner provided repeated assurances that the practice would support a certain production level and then the clinic finances changed. (Lots of vet clinics are failing right now, so this isn't necessarily a case of deception by the owner... just an unfortunate outcome of the oversupply of small-animal veterinarians). Other people were promised guaranteed salaries but then found out once starting their job that the terms of their contract weren't upheld and their pay/hours were cut. Some people get to keep their salary 'til the end of their contract THEN get a big pay cut. (My third job did this. My boss was reluctant to give me a written contract but I refused to take the position without one. He honored the contract, but dropped my salary 32% at the end of the year with NO corresponding cut in hours. The business was failing, so he had no choice - I don't fault him, but it certainly put me in a bind.) Some people can't find a job with a contract, so they take a job on a verbal offer - which can easily be changed to suit the needs of the business.

- Many people who leave their first jobs do so for very valid reasons. My first boss yelled at me, cussed at me, went behind my back and lied to staff/clients about me, etc. Other employers manage to hide major medical/ethical shortcomings during working interviews, but vets then find themselves doing convenience euthanasias, doing surgery without adequate analgesia (one of my bosses removed an entire mammary chain on a cat without a single dose of pain medication), doing surgery without sterile instruments (I interviewed at a practice that uses the same surgery pack all day with no cleaning between surgeries... I'm not sure how I happened to find that out, but I was glad I did because it was definitely something the owner was trying to hide), etc. Yes, people who leave their jobs may be acting financially irresponsibly, but it'd be even less financially responsible to risk losing your license for malpractice.

I have no reason to be defensive about people in either of these situations. Financially, I'm doing just fine. I'm making more than I ever expected to make as a veterinarian. I'm also making some pretty major compromises, and know that this job is probably not something that I can make work out in the long-term. There are ways to make good money if that's your primary concern. If you're anti-corporate, though, and looking for the type of practice that they talk about in vet school, realize that the finances may not be quite what you're expecting based on the AVMA salary survey.

Sorry to be all gloom and doom, but I just wish that I had known more about these realities before I went into the profession. I know some people may not like to hear it, but I think it's important that this info be available to the public in a searchable message board for people who truly do want to do their research about this profession... because the AVMA certainly is not painting an accurate portrait at this time. (How can they be accrediting new vet schools when there are currently less than 5 open veterinary positions advertised in my state? Where are the graduates of MY state's vet school going to work in May?)

I'm sorry to bump this, but I have to ask just how much ethical shortcomings can be found in veterinary medicine, such as the lack of pain med example above, and whatever 'convenience euthanasia' means... (is the convenience on the part of pet owner, financially stressed vet, or both/either?).

I'm currently pre-med, but as someone who has particularly enjoyed working with animals (pet sitter), I wish that veterinary medicine was an option not so economically dismal. Someone locally just closed his practice suddenly, leaving people with unfulfilled care contracts. I guess I have another question then: Why isn't there insurance coverage like there is in human medicine (the kind where people aren't expected to already have a few grand on them and then get reimbursed later)? Wouldn't that help solve what seems to be a financial crisis in veterinary care (what glaring point am I missing)?

 

[dyachei]

I'm sorry to bump this, but I have to ask just how much ethical shortcomings can be found in veterinary medicine, such as the lack of pain med example above, and whatever 'convenience euthanasia' means... (is the convenience on the part of pet owner, financially stressed vet, or both/either?).

I'm currently pre-med, but as someone who has particularly enjoyed working with animals (pet sitter), I wish that veterinary medicine was an option not so economically dismal. Someone locally just closed his practice suddenly, leaving people with unfulfilled care contracts. I guess I have another question then: Why isn't there insurance coverage like there is in human medicine (the kind where people aren't expected to already have a few grand on them and then get reimbursed later)? Wouldn't that help solve what seems to be a financial crisis in veterinary care (what glaring point am I missing)?

Convenience euthanasia refers to euthanizing an animal for reasons unrelated to its health - like the family is moving and can't bring the animal and elect to euthanize.

Lack of pain control is sadly still happening, too.

Insurance coverage not being like it is in human med is a good thing, IMO. The mess we have in human med has hurt us in many ways - there is reimbursement insurance in vet med, but there are many pre-existing genetic conditions, so you may have to read the fine print.

 

[smallbiz2doc]

Convenience euthanasia refers to euthanizing an animal for reasons unrelated to its health - like the family is moving and can't bring the animal and elect to euthanize.

Lack of pain control is sadly still happening, too.

Insurance coverage not being like it is in human med is a good thing, IMO. The mess we have in human med has hurt us in many ways - there is reimbursement insurance in vet med, but there are many pre-existing genetic conditions, so you may have to read the fine print.

Thank you for replying. I'm not sure I understand the insurance side of things though. If in a medical emergency I had to already have the cost of care on me to be reimbursed later, even for something small, I'd be left to suffer, and the hospital would lose the income opportunity they would have otherwise had from direct insurance payment (big biz that can afford more than individual)...

 

[dyachei]

Thank you for replying. I'm not sure I understand the insurance side of things though. If in a medical emergency I had to already have the cost of care on me to be reimbursed later, even for something small, I'd be left to suffer, and the hospital would lose the income opportunity they would have otherwise had from direct insurance payment (big biz that can afford more than individual)...

Yes but at the same time we aren't over billing and expecting our clients to not pay.

 

[dyachei]

Thank you for replying. I'm not sure I understand the insurance side of things though. If in a medical emergency I had to already have the cost of care on me to be reimbursed later, even for something small, I'd be left to suffer, and the hospital would lose the income opportunity they would have otherwise had from direct insurance payment (big biz that can afford more than individual)...

Forgot to mention that we are required to stabilize or euthanize as vets in this situation

 

[smallbiz2doc]

Yes but at the same time we aren't over billing and expecting our clients to not pay.

That's the point though, clients can't afford up front what insurance companies can (sorry, I had just edited my last post).

 

[that redhead]

That's the point though, clients can't afford up front what insurance companies can (sorry, I had just edited my last post).

Pet insurance is gaining popularity. But many people don't want to (or maybe can't) afford to pay a monthly fee for their pet's health. A disheartening number of people don't even realize the cost of a spay or neuter until they get to the clinic and then put up a fuss about how expensive veterinary care is.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's the point though, clients can't afford up front what insurance companies can (sorry, I had just edited my last post).

That is not how many, if not most, pet insurance companies work as far as I know. You are still required to pay the entire bill up front. You are reimbursed after the fact, however long that takes.

 

[BlackDog17]

I'm sorry to bump this, but I have to ask just how much ethical shortcomings can be found in veterinary medicine, such as the lack of pain med example above, and whatever 'convenience euthanasia' means... (is the convenience on the part of pet owner, financially stressed vet, or both/either?).

I'm currently pre-med, but as someone who has particularly enjoyed working with animals (pet sitter), I wish that veterinary medicine was an option not so economically dismal. Someone locally just closed his practice suddenly, leaving people with unfulfilled care contracts. I guess I have another question then: Why isn't there insurance coverage like there is in human medicine (the kind where people aren't expected to already have a few grand on them and then get reimbursed later)? Wouldn't that help solve what seems to be a financial crisis in veterinary care (what glaring point am I missing)?

I wouldn't necessarily call convenience euthanasia an ethical shortcoming. I never want to do it, but that is a very personal decision based on my own sense of ethics. There are a lot of situations in which vet could agree to perform a convenience euthanasia and it would not be unethical at all. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum in these forums, so if you're really interested you can find plenty of old threads on the subject.

As for lack of pain meds, in my experience that is something that certain clinics do to cut costs. The general public thinks that veterinary care is outrageously expensive, and - in my area at least - lately it has been the clinics that cost less that get the most business, not the clinics that provide the best standard of care. I've also seen situations where the vet has sat down with the owner to go over a surgery estimate and the owner has gone down the list and declined absolutely everything that wasn't essential, including pain meds, for the sake of cutting costs. What do you do in that situation? If you insist they pay for pain meds, chances are they'll just take their business to the cheaper clinic down the road that doesn't use pain meds, so in the end you haven't done the animal any favors and now you've lost a client.

I think it's important to remember that no question of ethics is black and white, and there's no one standard that can be applied to all situations. Plus, what is considered ethical in vet med and what is considered ethical in human med can be very different.

 

[dyachei]

That's the point though, clients can't afford up front what insurance companies can (sorry, I had just edited my last post).

There are a TON of issues with human insurance and its part of the reason there has been a huge debacle with this ACA thing. I don't want to get into any politics, but I am personally glad vet med is not mired in a mess like that one. I think it will be years before human medical insurance changes in the ways it needs to.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I wouldn't necessarily call convenience euthanasia an ethical shortcoming. I never want to do it, but that is a very personal decision based on my own sense of ethics. There are a lot of situations in which vet could agree to perform a convenience euthanasia and it would not be unethical at all. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum in these forums, so if you're really interested you can find plenty of old threads on the subject.

As for lack of pain meds, in my experience that is something that certain clinics do to cut costs. The general public thinks that veterinary care is outrageously expensive, and - in my area at least - lately it has been the clinics that cost less that get the most business, not the clinics that provide the best standard of care. I've also seen situations where the vet has sat down with the owner to go over a surgery estimate and the owner has gone down the list and declined absolutely everything that wasn't essential, including pain meds, for the sake of cutting costs. What do you do in that situation? If you insist they pay for pain meds, chances are they'll just take their business to the cheaper clinic down the road that doesn't use pain meds, so in the end you haven't done the animal any favors and now you've lost a client.

I think it's important to remember that no question of ethics is black and white, and there's no one standard that can be applied to all situations. Plus, what is considered ethical in vet med and what is considered ethical in human med can be very different.

Absolutely. If the alternative is the owner abandoning the dog in the wilderness so it can starve to death, or going home and shooting it/strangling it/poisoning it (and likely doing a crap job of it so the animal suffers horribly), or selling it to a random person on craigslist who may be a dog fighter trolling for bait dogs (this is not uncommon at all)....if adoption and rescue efforts were exhausted or unavailable you bet I would euthanize that dog.

I would feel like crap about the entire situation, but that would be what is best for the dog in the end.

 

[that redhead]

On the other hand, if this was a way for vets to make the money human docs make...

 

[bbeventer]

I think it's important to remember that no question of ethics is black and white, and there's no one standard that can be applied to all situations. Plus, what is considered ethical in vet med and what is considered ethical in human med can be very different.

Wonderfully phrased post. I was just having this conversation the other day actually about how inhumane humane medicine can be.

 

[smallbiz2doc]

That is not how many, if not most, pet insurance companies work as far as I know. You are still required to pay the entire bill up front. You are reimbursed after the fact, however long that takes.

Yes, it would be great to see the kind where people just pay a copay up front. I think more people would be interested in carrying it that way (especially if it's also part of employee benefits options). I have my cats insured, but only because I can borrow now if I need to; for years there would have been no point having it because I would have had nowhere to turn if the situation arose to use it anyway.

 

[dyachei]

Yes, it would be great to see the kind where people just pay a copay up front. I think more people would be interested in carrying it that way. I have my cats insured, but only because I can borrow now if I need to; for years there would have been no point having it because I would have had nowhere to turn.

some companies do this.

 

[Lab Rat83]

CVMA just released a study. The average salary for AVC grads was $65K with 98% finding employment and staying employed in the veterinary field soon after graduation. The break down of other Canadian schools is in the most recent issue of Canadian Veterinary Journal.

 

[sgv]

If you're making $60,000/year with >$120,000 in student loans, not accounting for the loan required to buy a practice, that's about $1,200/month in student loans for 10 years? $7,500 in income tax. $2,900 in state tax. You take home $35,200? WTF? Dental hygienists with only two years of education after college and little student loans get paid more than vet's? WTF? You're doctors! Shouldn't you guys be getting paid more? You'd have to really like handling animals to invest this much into your career with little compensation.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If you're making $60,000/year with >$120,000 in student loans, not accounting for the loan required to buy a practice, that's about $1,200/month in student loans for 10 years? $7,500 in income tax. $2,900 in state tax. You take home $35,200? WTF? Dental hygienists with only two years of education after college and little student loans get paid more than vet's? WTF? You're doctors! Shouldn't you guys be getting paid more?

We get paid in unicorn poop

 

[sgv]

We get paid in unicorn poop

What's that in leprechaun dollars?

 

[Escalla]

CVMA just released a study. The average salary for AVC grads was $65K with 98% finding employment and staying employed in the veterinary field soon after graduation. The break down of other Canadian schools is in the most recent issue of Canadian Veterinary Journal.

Dang, I need to check my school mailbox for this!

Edit: Apparently the last time I checked was to pick up the Dec 2013 issue.....clearly checking mail has been a priority.....

 

[NStarz]

We get paid in unicorn poop

And puppy kisses.

 

[dyachei]

We get paid in unicorn poop

pretty much

 

[sgv]

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread and forum. But geez! Someone graduating from Tufts has to borrow >$46,000/year at what like 6.8% interest? You'd have like $220,000 in loans when you graduate. And they expect you to pay it all off with $60K salary? That cost prohibitive! Is your degree worth it? Geez louise!

 

[dyachei]

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread and forum. But geez! Someone graduating from Tufts has to borrow >$46,000/year at what like 6.8% interest? You'd have like $220,000 in loans when you graduate. And they expect you to pay it all off with $60K salary? That cost prohibitive! Is your degree worth it? Geez louise!

some would say no

 

[sgv]

I'm very impressed by you guys, who are obviously intelligent and have at least a little business sense, going into this field knowing full well that you'll make very little money.

 

[twelvetigers]

Welp.

 

[dvm'08]

As for lack of pain meds, in my experience that is something that certain clinics do to cut costs. The general public thinks that veterinary care is outrageously expensive, and - in my area at least - lately it has been the clinics that cost less that get the most business, not the clinics that provide the best standard of care. I've also seen situations where the vet has sat down with the owner to go over a surgery estimate and the owner has gone down the list and declined absolutely everything that wasn't essential, including pain meds, for the sake of cutting costs. What do you do in that situation? If you insist they pay for pain meds, chances are they'll just take their business to the cheaper clinic down the road that doesn't use pain meds, so in the end you haven't done the animal any favors and now you've lost a client.

I don't think this is really an ethical dilemma... Frankly, its outright unethical. Withholding analgesia from a patient because a client 'declines' it is not acceptable. There are some things clients shouldn't be able to decline - pain control is one of those things. Appropriate analgesia is part of the standard of care and is instrumental to being able to justify doing something noxious to the patient. If you have a client threatening to go down the street because some other practice will do a procedure and cut out the analgesics, I would let them walk. Thats on the client, not on me.

 

[BlackDog17]

If you're making $60,000/year with >$120,000 in student loans, not accounting for the loan required to buy a practice, that's about $1,200/month in student loans for 10 years? $7,500 in income tax. $2,900 in state tax. You take home $35,200? WTF? Dental hygienists with only two years of education after college and little student loans get paid more than vet's? WTF? You're doctors! Shouldn't you guys be getting paid more? You'd have to really like handling animals to invest this much into your career with little compensation.

And with our current "overcapacity" of veterinarians, getting a job at all is difficult for many new grads. A lot more are going into internships now, and making ~$20K/year instead and getting hardship deferrals on their loans. And then the public complains when we don't give our services away for free.

You have to really love this field to put up with it all.

 

[BlackDog17]

I don't think this is really an ethical dilemma... Frankly, its outright unethical. Withholding analgesia from a patient because a client 'declines' it is not acceptable. There are some things clients shouldn't be able to decline - pain control is one of those things. Appropriate analgesia is part of the standard of care and is instrumental to being able to justify doing something noxious to the patient. If you have a client threatening to go down the street because some other practice will do a procedure and cut out the analgesics, I would let them walk. Thats on the client, not on me.

Again, it is never black and white. I would never perform a surgery without appropriate anesthesia, but what about post-op pain meds? I have seen a lot of clients try to decline those. I might go ahead and do the procedure without those extra meds, especially if I felt that the client was the type to go home and try to perform the procedure him/herself. We've seen more than one article about backyard breeders performing their own C-sections lately. I would much rather do the surgery properly and have the dog be in a little extra pain for a couple days afterwards than have the owner go home and open her up with a steak knife on their kitchen table.

 

[dvm'08]

Again, it is never black and white. I would never perform a surgery without appropriate anesthesia, but what about post-op pain meds? I have seen a lot of clients try to decline those. I might go ahead and do the procedure without those extra meds, especially if I felt that the client was the type to go home and try to perform the procedure him/herself. We've seen more than one article about backyard breeders performing their own C-sections lately. I would much rather do the surgery properly and have the dog be in a little extra pain for a couple days afterwards than have the owner go home and open her up with a steak knife on their kitchen table.

I think this is a circumstance where its more black and white then grey. I don't think you can justify doing a C-section on a dog with no postoperative analgesia because you're concerned the client is going to do it at home on their kitchen table. If you're going to take on the responsibility of doing surgery on a patient, you have the ethical responsibility to make sure its appropriately analgesed. If that means you have to give away some metacam or some tramadol, then so be it. Its totally unacceptable to do something painful to a patient and then make them 'suffer through it' post-operatively because the client declines pain control, and you can't financially justify giving the meds away for free. If thats the case, you shouldn't have agreed to do the procedure.

Don't get me wrong - i'm not advocating veterinarians give away their services for free... I'm simply saying that if you take on the responsibility of doing surgery for a fiscally constrained client, you cannot justify cutting costs by cutting out the analgesics. If you're going to cut costs - cut your professional fee.

 

[StartingoverVet]

There are a TON of issues with human insurance and its part of the reason there has been a huge debacle with this ACA thing. I don't want to get into any politics, but I am personally glad vet med is not mired in a mess like that one. I think it will be years before human medical insurance changes in the ways it needs to.

I completely disagree with you.

Sure, there are problems with medical insurance in human medicine, but then again, at least human medicine gets to treat pretty much everyone, and not have to deny care. Doctors are not making out that badly as well. In the "old days", human medicine was closer to vet med, and treatment was highly dependent on wealth level. That is simply not the case anymore. I simply think you are too focused on the problems in human med, and don't see all the obstacles that they have overcome, that vet med hasn't. Having to deal with billing insurance companies is a small price to pay for the broad benefits of the system.

I would love Pet insurance to be provided by employers as an above the line deduction, so we didn't have to turn away so many animals who need treatment, or euthanize them. It would be a cheaper way to provide service, especially as it would be another tax free benefit. People would hardly notice paycheck deduction, and would be much happier in the end.

People only think vet care is expensive because most of them are used to human medical co-pays, which make human med seem cheap by comparison for out of pocket expenses. It would be great to have the same system.

I pretty much guarantee that revenues would increase across the board if this were true. It would never happen this way, but it is a nice dream.

 

[dyachei]

I completely disagree with you.

Sure, there are problems with medical insurance in human medicine, but then again, at least human medicine gets to treat pretty much everyone, and not have to deny care. Doctors are not making out that badly as well. In the "old days", human medicine was closer to vet med, and treatment was highly dependent on wealth level. That is simply not the case anymore. I simply think you are too focused on the problems in human med, and don't see all the obstacles that they have overcome, that vet med hasn't. Having to deal with billing insurance companies is a small price to pay for the broad benefits of the system.

I would love Pet insurance to be provided by employers as an above the line deduction, so we didn't have to turn away so many animals who need treatment, or euthanize them. It would be a cheaper way to provide service, especially as it would be another tax free benefit. People would hardly notice paycheck deduction, and would be much happier in the end.

People only think vet care is expensive because most of them are used to human medical co-pays, which make human med seem cheap by comparison for out of pocket expenses. It would be great to have the same system.

I pretty much guarantee that revenues would increase across the board if this were true. It would never happen this way, but it is a nice dream.

It could also increase costs for those without to the point of making it unaffordable. The way human medical insurance is now, I don't want it anywhere near vet med. I'm not saying not in the future, but not now

 

[sgv]

People only think vet care is expensive because most of them are used to human medical co-pays, which make human med seem cheap by comparison for out of pocket expenses. It would be great to have the same system.

Or you know...it's a pet...look i love my dog and all and would definitely cry when she passes away but I would never pay thousands of dollars on her when clearly there are homeless families in the street and people who go years without treatment for debilitating diseases (elderly people cutting pills in half). I'm talking about random people who I'm less emotionally attached to than my dog but geez they're human. Something is inherently wrong with your value system if an animal's life is worth more than a human's. There you go. I bet I just rattled some cages by posting this. You won't see states subsidizing vet school tuition anytime soon because these values are shared by the vast majority of people.

Okay. I'll stop bothering your forums now. I was only posting for the past day because my sibling was interested in vet school.

 

[Thelemic]

Or you know...it's a pet...look i love my dog and all and would definitely cry when she passes away but I would never pay thousands of dollars on her when clearly there are homeless families in the street and people who go years without treatment for debilitating diseases (elderly people cutting pills in half). I'm talking about random people who I'm less emotionally attached to than my dog but geez they're human. Something is inherently wrong with your value system if an animal's life is worth more than a human's. There you go. I bet I just rattled some cages by posting this. You won't see states subsidizing vet school tuition anytime soon because these values are shared by the vast majority of people.

Okay. I'll stop bothering your forums now. I was only posting for the past day because my sibling was interested in vet school.

Gosh, guy. Maybe I should hop on over to the dental board and just drop a comment into some random post there about how, hey, it's only teeth. I don't see why people should spend all that money on them when they could just get dentures and give the money they'd otherwise spend on dental care to the homeless. I mean, it's not like you're talking about the brain or the heart or some other important part of the body. There, I said it. Maybe I rattled some cages, but you will find, by the number of folk with missing teeth around the world, that these values are shared by the vast majority of people.

My brother is thinking about dental school, after all.

 

[wildcatj]

Or you know...it's a pet...look i love my dog and all and would definitely cry when she passes away but I would never pay thousands of dollars on her when clearly there are homeless families in the street and people who go years without treatment for debilitating diseases (elderly people cutting pills in half). I'm talking about random people who I'm less emotionally attached to than my dog but geez they're human. Something is inherently wrong with your value system if an animal's life is worth more than a human's. There you go. I bet I just rattled some cages by posting this. You won't see states subsidizing vet school tuition anytime soon because these values are shared by the vast majority of people.

Okay. I'll stop bothering your forums now. I was only posting for the past day because my sibling was interested in vet school.

I'm not sure where I saw someone saying an animal's life was more important than a human's...

Just because your relationship with your pets isn't like someone else's doesn't make it wrong. Some people are very willing (and happy) to fork over a lot of money for their pet's health care. What's wrong with trying to make it easier for everyone to be able to afford veterinary bills? It's a burden on everyone when pets can't be treated because of financial issues and that's a huge road block in our profession. Not sure I see the problem with wanting to try to solve that.