How much does prestige actually matter in private practice

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Hello SDN. Say you're a low tier MD/DO/IMG, hoping to some day start a private practice in a large city (Portland, Denver, West coast). Does the name recognition of where you went to residency *really* matter that much more vs local word of mouth referrals, all things equal? More specifically an Ivy league vs institutions with regional although not national brand recognition such as Vanderbilt, U of Utah, Cincinatti, UC Irvine, etc? Trying to determine the worth of ranking certain institutions higher on a rank list, causing one to move across the country and away from family, solely for name. Do patients care that much? Have read prestige doesn't matter in psychiatry although I'm not sure if that applies to PP in large cities. Thank you.

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Yes to some patients, no to others. How much does it matter? There's a spectrum.

This is a non-answer because more of doing well in private practice depends on your ability to market, network, know the local economics in setting your fees and expectations, build referral sources, maintain those referral sources, making sure your current patients continue to follow-up with you, creating and communicating your niche (also called unique selling proposition), and keeping your costs low.

If you know you want to be somewhere after training ends, I think it's more valuable to go to training in that location so you can learn the local market and start building your reputation and referral sources with therapists, psychiatrists, PCPs, etc locally than going to Harvard/Yale/NYU/Columbia/Hopkins/Penn/UCSF/UCLA/other prestigious programs and then moving somewhere else to establish a PP.
 
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I think less than on the East Coast, but as the above poster said...regardless...it's a tiny, essentially trivial portion of the challenge in launching a successful cash based private practice. Definitely second the idea above that you should plan to train geographically where you want to practice if you can. That's a lot more important than prestige in specific.
 
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You need to actually drop names. There is a difference between Harvard and Brown. And I think if you want to move to Portland there will be a difference between UC Irvine and Cincinnati.

Might as well say what city you want to settle where you live now and what your interviews look like.
 
Maybe yes.
But mostly no.

Patients don't know cinncinnati or WashU, or UPitt, or even really care.
Patients know Ivy league, Mayo, and Cleveland clinic. The rest they correlate back to the football teams.
 
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This question consistently comes up again and again but deserves unpacking, because many students and trainees don't really understand this.

1. In marketing psychology, there is a concept of branding association. Using consumer's positive association/transference to brands rubs off on you by association. So if people think highly of Harvard or Yale, and you prominently report that affiliation, those people may be more disposed to see you in a positive light.
2. There is also the concept of, "If you've got it, flaunt it." Thus it is not surprising that those that went to prestigious institutions are more likely to emphasize this in their marketing and websites than those who did not. This is not the same as "if you don't have it, you're doomed to failure" but that you need to find other things to emphasize to communicate your value if you don't have those credentials to flaunt.
3. In these divided times, respect for ivory tower institutions is not what it once was. Some people now see them as bastions of elitism (which makes you elitist), or factories of "woke indoctrination" (and worry you will poison there children), and some of these institutions have been tarnished by accusations of failing to deal with antisemitism etc. Put simply, branding association is not always positive. Similarly, in some locales, branding association may be stronger for the institution with the college football team than a faraway Ivy.
4. You will find that there are a lot more cash practices from graduates of the top residencies (which doesn't always translate to public prestige). This is not simply because of branding or prestige but actually about the quality of training, the amount of psychotherapy training, exposure to psychiatrists in private practice etc. Ill take these in turn.
5. Cash practices are more likely to do psychotherapy. That's not necessarily because more people want psychiatrists doing therapy, but because insurance doesn't pay as well for therapy. You can make as much or more in an insurance practice on average accepting insurance for med management. For psychotherapy, there is a clear financial advantage of doing cash only. Top programs are more likely to train their residents in psychotherapy. It's also easier to fill you practice if you have therapy patients - 1 therapy patient = 8-48 med management patients.
6. While there isn't a correlation between the "name" of the program and quality of training, the top 20-25 programs do provide generally better quality of training that most other programs. If you do good work, you'll retain patients, and attract more patients due to positive reviews, happy physicians referring their patients to you, and happy pts referring their friends to you.
7. Because top programs are more likely to have graduates in cash practices, you are more likely to have these supervisors in training and network with people whose practices are full and will refer you patients if you attend one of those programs than one where you don't. Again "top ranked" and public "prestige" are not one and the same, but there is something to it. Of course, it's not impossible otherwise, but not as easy. I wouldn't consider my residency program to be "prestigious" but it was a top ranked program and we did have multiple talks on setting up a private practice and resources in the residency office to help with that.
8. The further you are out of training, the less your training will matter and the more your reputation and the work you do matters.
9. If you have no head for business (or no interest in it) and no one to help with that, then your practice won't be as successful as it could be. Honestly, seeing how many psychiatrists in pp have no idea what they are doing was what gave me the confidence to go out on my own. Conversely, if you are business savvy, that is more important than the "name" of your program.
10. Branding Association is not limited to residency training - it also includes college, medical school, graduate school, fellowships, and faculty affiliations.
11. Another marketing principle is FANAFI - find a need and fill it. While there is a clear need for psychiatry (especially CAP), if you are more laser focused in identifying a need and creating your practice and marketing around it, you will be more successful.
12. There might be other things that you wish to flaunt - books you've written, news/TV appearances, invited talks, important publications, important leadership roles, less common board certifications, specific psychotherapy trainings/offerings, awards you've received, clinical experience you've had, personal experience you've had. Prior experience (e.g. prior business experience now focusing on executive coaching, prior tech/start up experience now focusing on founders, former college athletics now focusing on sports psychiatry) etc.

tl;dr - Yes, it matters a little, but the quality of your training matters more. And all of this matter less the further out from training you get. There are multiple things one can potentially flaunt, and thinking carefully about you brand yourself and market your practice, in addition to doing high quality work, and having (or willigness to develop) some business savvy are all important. Ultimately, in private practice, the brand is YOU, so you need to invest in cultivating and maintaining that so people see value in what you offer.
 
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I'm going to open up some BS organization, I'll call it Harfard University. We'll make the "f" look as much like a "v" as possible on your degree. You go to my organization, we'll graduate you after you jump on a jump rope 10x, give me $1000, and now you can say you're a Harfard U graduate.

A few years ago I got some bull$hit notice that I Was one of the top neurologists in the country. All I had to do was give them a few hundred dollars for the award. Just tor $hits and giggles, I actually called the number, they wanted $300, I said no, and they alleged that because I won the award it really was just for the shipping and processing. After the no, they then dropped to $200. Then I said no and they dropped to $100. I said no, and they dropped to $50. I said no again and they said it was my loss.

A few days later, some idiot in my practice that we later kicked out, I saw on his wall a plaque from this bull$hit organization. He was stupid enough to buy a plaque every year and put it on his wall.
 
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Pretend for a moment that you want to see a dermatologist and have $250 allotted this month to do so. Follow-ups maybe needed, but we don’t know yet. How do you choose the dermatologist?

1. Cheapest to save as much of the $250 as possible for maybe follow-ups
2. Most attractive dermatologist is clearly the best?
3. Which has availability in the next 3 weeks?
4. Which works on Fridays at 4pm (or preferred time)?
5. Best medical school
6. Best undergrad
7. Closest to your house
8. Closest to your work
9. Oldest (most experienced)
10. Youngest (trained on newest tech)
11. Recommended by friend
12. Highest on Google
13. Online reviews
14. Cool tik toks
15. Easiest website
16. Most informative website

Same goes for psych. I can do this all day. Patients will find you based on many ways. There isn’t a singular way to build a thriving practice.
 
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I'm going to open up some BS organization, I'll call it Harfard University. We'll make the "f" look as much like a "v" as possible on your degree. You go to my organization, we'll graduate you after you jump on a jump rope 10x, give me $1000, and now you can say you're a Harfard U graduate.

A few years ago I got some bull$hit notice that I Was one of the top neurologists in the country. All I had to do was give them a few hundred dollars for the award. Just tor $hits and giggles, I actually called the number, they wanted $300, I said no, and they alleged that because I won the award it really was just for the shipping and processing. After the no, they then dropped to $200. Then I said no and they dropped to $100. I said no, and they dropped to $50. I said no again and they said it was my loss.

A few days later, some idiot in my practice that we later kicked out, I saw on his wall a plaque from this bull$hit organization. He was stupid enough to buy a plaque every year and put it on his wall.
Patient's don't know about this. "Top Doctor in America" and "Who's Who" list or on the cover of an unknown but prestigiously sounding magazine are things that people flaunt to market, but definitely a scam. It impresses gullible patients though. To us it is phony because it's pay to play. I would imagine these magazines and websites are making a lot of money for something so small as to print a piece of paper out for $300.
 
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There are countless NPs running cash only practice for 250-300 an hour in my area with degrees from no name online programs or state schools at best
 
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There are countless NPs running cash only practice for 250-300 an hour in my area with degrees from no name online programs or state schools at best
What is your point? People see cash only NPs for stimulants and benzos. And those rates are substantially lower than what the typical cash psychiatrist would charge, and even substantially less than an insurance pill mill. There is an NP near me who charges $200 per 15 min med check.

That said, there are certainly some very business savvy NPs out there who are good at making connections and marketing and have non-pill mill practices. master's level therapists often prefer referring to NPs.
 
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