How much will this affect me?

[el_duderino]

I'm a 30 year old non-traditional student. I'm going to give a real quick overview of my story so far.

I was a genuinely outstanding student through elementary and high school. I was a National Merit finalist, got a 1540 on my SAT and a 36 on my ACT. I got a 4 or better on 11 AP exams. I entered undergrad at RPI majoring in engineering with 38 credits before stepping into a classroom. Through my first 3 semesters I had a 3.78 GPA. In the middle of my fourth semester, one of my best friends died rather tragically. I was 19 and wasn't able to handle it at that age. I was getting burned out with engineering and that was a deadly combination. I slowly stopped going to classes and posted a 2.25 that semester, bringing my GPA down toa 3.42. I was on probation for another two semesters, though I really had no interest in pursuing that degree and these two semesters of F's brought me down to a 2.53.

After this, I spent my time working - first in a sporting goods store and then, for the last 7 years, as a network administrator. I decided to finish my undergrad and go to medical school, which had been my dream since I was in high school. I'm getting A's in all my bio and chem classes, though I'm only taking 7 credits per semester while working full time.

So long story short: exceptional scores on SAT and ACT, 3.78 GPA at a prestigious school before breaking down and basically dropping out at 19. Now taking 7 credits a semester and getting As. I anticipate I will get a 34-36 on my MCAT. My ECs are decent - I am captain of a pair of tennis teams, have a history of medical/first-aid related training (Wilderness First Aid, etc), will be volunteering at a hospital through this semester, was a caving leader/instructor, etc.

I don't plan on applying at any truly top-tier schools - my primary choices are Albany, LSU, and Tulane. Also thinking about UMass, Washington, East Tennessee, and Drexel.

What are my chances here?

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[hfastinks21]

Which classes did you get F's in, and how many credits was each one worth? People with 2 F's suffer serious AMCAS GPA damage, however, you have 2 semesters of F's and every single one of them will be calculated into your GPA regardless of whether or not you retake them.

Unless you want to devote an extra 3-4 years of college getting nothing but A's, MD schools are out for you just because of the way AMCAS calculates your GPA. They do not honor any of the grade forgiveness, academic bankruptcy policies etc that your school may have. Retake the classes and take advantage of the AACOMAS (DO) retake policy.

 

[el_duderino]

Out completely? That can't be. Even including the F's, which all come from two semesters basically after I had stopped going to school, my GPA is a 2.86 which certainly doesn't completely exclude me. Plus if you were to exclude those semesters my GPA is over a 3.5, and my GPA in the past 2 years is a 3.78.

The classes themselves were random higher-level engineering classes like applied atomic nuclear physics and signals and systems. There's literally no way to retake them, and they aren't anything I'm at all interested in.

I would expect that an MCAT of 34+, a clear history of having the aptitude to get A's in tough classes at prestigious schools, and a recent history of straight A's would have to mean there is some hope, especially at a low to mid tier school.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

MD will be very hard to get, even with a good MCAT score. Regardless of the situation, I don't see how you can just take the F's without withdrawing for two whole semesters. That is what messed your chances up big time. You better have a good explanation to the adcoms. MD schools don't just "cut" out he bad portion of one's semester, even if it's all F's or so. They have to take everything to account, or else they are not showing fairness to the others who may have a situation too.
What is good however is that there is a gap between the failure and the success. You started off successful, you plummeted, then you came right back up. That will be a factor for the adcoms. The thing is, you may get screened out right away from the low GPA.
If you are dead set on MD, you need to at least get up to a 3.2 so you won't get screened as heavily, and/or do an SMP.
IF DO is a consideration (you'd be stupid not to) then re-take all your classes you did bad on, taking advantage of their policy.
I would recommend the DO route just because it will be easier in the long run. I would estimate around a year or two to be competitive.
As for MD, I would take a LONG while, 3-4 years, to recover, depending on how many credits you already have.
So take that into consideration.
GL

 

[hfastinks21]

Out completely? That can't be. Even including the F's, which all come from two semesters basically after I had stopped going to school, my GPA is a 2.86 which certainly doesn't completely exclude me. Plus if you were to exclude those semesters my GPA is over a 3.5, and my GPA in the past 2 years is a 3.78.

The classes themselves were random higher-level engineering classes like applied atomic nuclear physics and signals and systems. There's literally no way to retake them, and they aren't anything I'm at all interested in.

I would expect that an MCAT of 34+, a clear history of having the aptitude to get A's in tough classes at prestigious schools, and a recent history of straight A's would have to mean there is some hope, especially at a low to mid tier school.

Your AMCAS GPA will not be 2.53.

Your AMCAS GPA will be wrecked by those F's. Most medical schools use a computer screening system to auto-deny applications without a certain AMCAS GPA, so your MCAT and "Aptitude" wont come to their attention because your app will be automatically filtered out. As far as MD schools go, there really is no "Low to mid tier" unless you start talking about caribbean schools.

Unsure of why you are mentioning excluding those two semesters, AMCAS factors in every single grade that you receive. You will either need to spend years taking more credits and getting A's or retake what you failed and apply D.O.

You mention you cannot retake some of your classes, well, if that's the case...even D.O would be extremely difficult for you.

 

[el_duderino]

Considering that at a GPA of 2.83 and an MCAT of 33 over a third of applicants get accepted, they can't all just set the autofilter at 3.0.

 

[hfastinks21]

The average matriculation GPA for a US M.D school is 3.6 with an MCAT of 34. Your best chances would be at a D.O school.

There's very little difference between the two degrees.

 

[el_duderino]

I might apply to a DO school or two. Geography is a big problem with them though.

BTW, 3.6 might be close to the average for GPA but 34 is definitely not the average for matriculation. It's more like 31.

 

[el_duderino]

I've also seen a number of posts by people who have sub-3.0 GPAs and have gotten accepted at schools. I'm not convinced that a 2.86 from a handful of F's concentrated into two semesters 10 years ago is a death sentence.

FWIW, my overall BCPM GPA is 3.64.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

It's not. You just gotta work harder. I would take a bigger courseload though. I know some people on this forum who work full time and take 16 credits on the side. For your case, you should bump it up to the min of 12 credits.

 

[el_duderino]

It wouldn't be possible to do. I'm in IT and work regular office hours. Courses are mostly during the day and it's a struggle just to get 7 credits in.

I'll be finishing my degree and graduating next spring.

 

[Creed Bratton]

DO is pretty much your only shot, also take the MCAT before you start anticipating scores. You have a lot of excuses, the average adcom won't care

 

[el_duderino]

OK I don't want to be overly argumentative, but can you explain how it's "my only shot"? The charts say about a third of applicants make it in my GPA/MCAT range.

 

[StoicJosher]

I've also seen a number of posts by people who have sub-3.0 GPAs and have gotten accepted at schools. I'm not convinced that a 2.86 from a handful of F's concentrated into two semesters 10 years ago is a death sentence.

FWIW, my overall BCPM GPA is 3.64.

Looking at pure statistics, yes - you have close to a 30% chance of being accepted with a 2.8-2.9 GPA and a 33-35 MCAT. You have a shot but it is extremely risky especially if you are applying only to a handful of schools.

Your ECs are good but not exceptional (which is usually the case for these applicants) and it doesn't look have you have a lot of clinical experience or shadowing. You need to work on that as well.

And yes - your GPA is going to be a big problem and could easily get you auto-screened out from many schools. Here is something else you can look in. Try talking to your first undergrad and see if you can get them to change that two semester of F's into W's (or atleast one semester into W's). This will tremendously help your GPA because it W's don't count into AMCAS GPA calculations and you can explain the W's later. This is probably your best course of action besides DO. Beg them if you have to.

 

[Creed Bratton]

OK I don't want to be overly argumentative, but can you explain how it's "my only shot"? The charts say about a third of applicants make it in my GPA/MCAT range.

well right now your MCAT is a zero, so as much as you want a certain MCAT you need to get it first. Also, who knows how people with low GPA's got in, but I don't see anything compelling in your app to make it seem like it would happen for you. Excuses for crappy grades don't count, i've never seen anyone who didn't have them

 

[el_duderino]

That's a really good idea. I'm extremely annoyed at how stupid I was back then. I was completely burned out and down on myself and only even registered for classes because my dad basically forced me. Getting them turned into W's would change my overall GPA to over a 3.5.

Anyone know if that's something that's ever done?

 

[rjelalam]

I don't know where your statistics are coming from, but there is no way 1/3 of applicants to allopathic schools get in with less than 3.0. It's not logical. You ask for advice then get defensive, stop being in denial.

 

[el_duderino]

well right now your MCAT is a zero, so as much as you want a certain MCAT you need to get it first. Also, who knows how people with low GPA's got in, but I don't see anything compelling in your app to make it seem like it would happen for you. Excuses for crappy grades don't count, i've never seen anyone who didn't have them

The MCAT won't be a problem. I've always done extremely well on standardized testing. I've gotten a 34 and 35 on two of the AAMC practice tests with zero review while waiting for the EK review books to come in.

 

[el_duderino]

I don't know where your statistics are coming from, but there is no way 1/3 of applicants to allopathic schools get in with less than 3.0. It's not logical. You ask for advice then get defensive, stop being in denial.

They're coming from the AAMC.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-w-mcatgpa-grid-white.pdf

 

[StoicJosher]

That's a really good idea. I'm extremely annoyed at how stupid I was back then. I was completely burned out and down on myself and only even registered for classes because my dad basically forced me. Getting them turned into W's would change my overall GPA to over a 3.5.

Anyone know if that's something that's ever done?

I have no idea how often it gets done. My advice came from anecdotal evidence here on SDN. Here is a thread I could find.

It is going to depend on your school and many other factors. But I do have one more advice for you. I noticed that you did try to make a lot of excuses here in this thread (which might be true). I recommend that you take full responsibility for your actions and own up to them. In case you are successful in getting this done, medical schools want to see mature, responsible adults. They want to know that you have outgrown that and have learned from your mistakes - not that you are good at making excuses. Mention your circumstances but don't lean on them too much. Focus more on what you took out of it and how it changed you. I am sure the same advice will apply if you plan on asking your old school for W's.

 

[hfastinks21]

That's a really good idea. I'm extremely annoyed at how stupid I was back then. I was completely burned out and down on myself and only even registered for classes because my dad basically forced me. Getting them turned into W's would change my overall GPA to over a 3.5.

Anyone know if that's something that's ever done?

It certainly is done sometimes, but you have to remember, AMCAS will still count your old grades even if your college changes them to W's on your transcript, depending on how your school factors them in. See the bottom of page 44 of the AMCAS 2012 Application Instructions.

(P.S. Were in the same boat, I have 6 F's on my transcript )

 

[TriagePreMed]

Considering that at a GPA of 2.83 and an MCAT of 33 over a third of applicants get accepted, they can't all just set the autofilter at 3.0.

Well, look at you. You have all the answers. Why do you bother coming here?

 

[hfastinks21]

Well, look at you. You have all the answers. Why do you bother coming here?

I think he wants someone to tell him everything is A-OK and that he's not actually in serious academic turmoil. I did the same thing in the beginning.

 

[el_duderino]

What I want is a realistic assessment. "No shot" and "out for you" are not that. I appreciate people taking the time to respond, though.

 

[hfastinks21]

What I want is a realistic assessment. "No shot" and "out for you" are not that. I appreciate people taking the time to respond, though.

You got a realistic assessment, what you are looking for is to be coddled. Can't help you there.

 

[TriagePreMed]

What I want is a realistic assessment. "No shot" and "out for you" are not that. I appreciate people taking the time to respond, though.

It's true that you don't have a shot. Nothing of what you mention is impressive or worthy of giving you a huge exception as you wish. Take some time to research schools individually instead of relying on aggregated stats. Look at U of New Mexico. They accept a lot more lower GPA students, but why is that? They accept mostly in-state. Have you seen people on these boards with 2.9 GPA that get into med school? I have. What do they have? Some have 10+ years of pure science research. Some have Ph.D's in other fields. A guy here did an entirely new bachelors (all 4 years) with a 4.0 GPA. You don't have a shot. Come back when you have years of research, a new bachelors, a Ph.D perhaps, set up a clinic in Africa (yes, someone did that), and then ask us if your 2.9 has a shot.

 

[Creed Bratton]

It's true that you don't have a shot. Nothing of what you mention is impressive or worthy of giving you a huge exception as you wish. Take some time to research schools individually instead of relying on aggregated stats. Look at U of New Mexico. They accept a lot more lower GPA students, but why is that? They accept mostly in-state. Have you seen people on these boards with 2.9 GPA that get into med school? I have. What do they have? Some have 10+ years of pure science research. Some have Ph.D's in other fields. A guy here did an entirely new bachelors (all 4 years) with a 4.0 GPA. You don't have a shot. Come back when you have years of research, a new bachelors, a Ph.D perhaps, set up a clinic in Africa (yes, someone did that), and then ask us if your 2.9 has a shot.

I'm also guessing a large portion of the sub 3.0 admissions are urm's.

 

[StoicJosher]

I'm also guessing a large portion of the sub 3.0 admissions are urm's.

Actually no. I was looking at the charts and it seems like ~10% of the pertinent category are URMs. I think it is more what TriagePreMed said... Places like UNM where the avg MCAT is 27 and GPA 3.5.

 

[flodhi1]

OP, quite frankly you're going to have to work hard for at least a couple years. You will have to bring your GPA above a 3.0 to avoid auto filters at most schools. Triage has a point some of the folks that get accepted with 2.9 GPAs have extenuating circumstances and big come backs. You're going to have to complete a SMP program with > 3.7 GPA and score >33 on the MCAT. Your chances at MD schools are NOT over but you have lots of work to do. You're also going to have to apply very broadly compared to the small school list you presented.

 

[Creed Bratton]

Actually no. I was looking at the charts and it seems like ~10% of the pertinent category are URMs. I think it is more what TriagePreMed said... Places like UNM where the avg MCAT is 27 and GPA 3.5.

Well if those 10% were mostly all accepted that's a big chunk of the total acceptances. I don't have the numbers in front of me

 

[sliceofbread136]

Just retake your engineering classes and go DO. Other universities will offer them.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Well if those 10% were mostly all accepted that's a big chunk of the total acceptances. I don't have the numbers in front of me

Actually I was assuming that the OP was white when he said 30%

https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-w-mcatgpa-grid-white.pdf

 

[Goro]

I hate to pour cold water on your logic, but your n of 24 applicants and 8 acceptees is not meaningful when compared the huge pool of 3.6+/MCAT30+ appicants.

Here's a little secret from the AdComs. Those subpar people who miraculously make it in (like your 33% pool), they're called "specials" or "legacies".

Who are they? People related to big or potential donors, or faculty, or Deans, or friends of theirs. Keep in mind that many AdComs only recommedn to the Dean who should be accepted, and he/she is the final arbiter or who is accepted.

Nepotism is very real in medical school admissions, and my faculty have had people like that shoved down our throats. They make awful medical students too.

So, your chances are pretty pretty much nil at MD schools, but you do have a chance at some DO schools. We tend to be forgiving of a bad semester or year in a sea of excellence.

And no medical school cares about how you did in high school, on ACT, or SAT.

They're coming from the AAMC.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-w-mcatgpa-grid-white.pdf

 

[el_duderino]

As an update, I did get a 35 on my MCAT on my first try. Picked up a couple hundred hours of clinical and shadowing experience and finished my BS.

I've had two interviews to MD programs this cycle. Still waiting to hear back on them. I'll update the thread once I find out.

 

[DokterMom]

Wonderful to hear - Congratulations!

I'm curious how you explained your 'Crash and burn' and subsequent comeback. As an interviewer, I'd have to say that would give me pause as well -- though at 19, caving to Dad's 'gotta re-enroll' pressure is pretty forgivable. Do update when you get your first acceptance.

 

[el_duderino]

I just told the truth. That I hit a really rough patch in my life and sorta shut down with no support system around me. I had a tough time with it afterwards, as academic performance had largely been the defining characteristic of my identity, and since then it's been a learning process regarding how to deal with challenges, learning to overcome failure, being more open about my emotional life, etc. The pre-med committee interviewers at my school and the med school interviewers have been receptive to it, not to mention interested. They seem to understand that it was a long time ago, and my history since indicates a great deal of growth.

I still haven't been accepted anywhere yet but I have been on interviews. I'll update with any decisions from programs.

 

[el_duderino]

I'm happy to report that I've been accepted at an MD program for the class of 2018.

 

[dial1010usa]

Congratulations!!!

What was your GPA after retaking classes?

Please share your story so that can encourage other people that it can be done.

As an update, I did get a 35 on my MCAT on my first try. Picked up a couple hundred hours of clinical and shadowing experience and finished my BS.

I've had three interviews to MD programs this cycle. Still waiting to hear back on all three of them. I'll update the thread once I find out.

 

[el_duderino]

GPA: Overall 2.81, BCPM 3.62. MCAT 35. I did an online graduate certificate in public health over the past year and sent an update letter back in Feburary with my grades for that (4.0 GPA there). I've gone to school part time since Fall 2011 (2-3 classes per semester) finishing a BS in Biology. My GPA in that program was 3.93 over the course of about 32 credits. There's not much else to tell. 70 hours of clinical time in the ER as part of an undergrad research course, 60-70 hours of physician shadowing in varying environments, 100 hours of volunteer hours in the ER. Also have some time volunteering as a youth advisor at a church camp, I captain some tennis teams, and a few other minor things. I have a history of some outdoor leadership, a wilderness first aid course, that sort of thing. Nothing mind-blowing, but a fairly solid and diverse background and a solid number of A's recently.

 

[DokterMom]

Congratulations! I'm delighted to hear that you've made it back and are once again on a path to your dreams.

For the benefit of future readers, how many consecutive months of 'good deeds' (MCAT, volunteering, classes, post-bac) did it take before you successfully reapplied?

 

[cookiebandit]

[]

 

[el_duderino]

Not really sure what you mean by consecutive so I'll just give the timeline. I started half-time classes towI ards finishing my BS in Spring 2011. Took the MCAT in May 2012 (35R). Finished my BS in Spring 2013. I did a graduate certificate (one year, part time, not really a post bac) that I just finished in Spring 2014.

I did all my shadowing between September 2012 and May 2013. Volunteered at the ER from August to January 2013, and the clinical research time was January to May 2013 as part of a one-semester class. The church camp volunteering was summer of 2012 and 2013. [I have some other stuff, since and in the future, that's not on the application.] There's some leadership stuff that's ongoing for the past several years, as well as some other stuff (outdoor leadership) in the relatively distant past. I've also been employed full-time at the same organization in a technical field the past 10 consecutive years.

So basically I went back to school part time starting in Spring 2011, took the MCAT in Spring 2012, did some medical volunteer work, research assistant work, and shadowing in fall 2012/spring 2013.

I applied for Fall 2013 entry to a number of schools at the end of the cycle and got nowhere. That app had very little in terms of shadowing and volunteer work, and no research experience.

 

[VegasPreMed]

Jonnythan, you are a beast. Congratulations, seriously. Gives me hope. Thank you.

 

[bball4]

GPA: Overall 2.81, BCPM 3.62. MCAT 35. I did an online graduate certificate in public health over the past year and sent an update letter back in Feburary with my grades for that (4.0 GPA there). I've gone to school part time since Fall 2011 (2-3 classes per semester) finishing a BS in Biology. My GPA in that program was 3.93 over the course of about 32 credits. There's not much else to tell. 70 hours of clinical time in the ER as part of an undergrad research course, 60-70 hours of physician shadowing in varying environments, 100 hours of volunteer hours in the ER. Also have some time volunteering as a youth advisor at a church camp, I captain some tennis teams, and a few other minor things. I have a history of some outdoor leadership, a wilderness first aid course, that sort of thing. Nothing mind-blowing, but a fairly solid and diverse background and a solid number of A's recently.

Hey @jonnythan ,
First of all congrats! Yours is such an awesome redemption story and it was really encouraging to hear/read that such a dramatic comeback can get you in.

Similar to you, I suffered a terrible tragedy during my junior year with the loss of one of my best friends. However, unlike you, I had been a way below-average student to that point (2.3 GPA). I dropped out and worked full-time for the next two years. After lots of soul-searching, I returned to school hungry and with a renewed sense of purpose. I earned straight A's and graduated in a year. Realizing my GPA still needed some serious repair, I started a DIY post-bac of sorts at my state school where I've taken 44 credits of upper level sciences (3.95 GPA). Despite this strong upward trend, I still am sitting at a 2.8 for both cGPA and sGPA. I've taken so many credits at this point that I'd need at least another year and a half just to crack a 3.0 GPA. My question then is how did you address your GPA, the tragedy you faced, and how you overcame it in the personal statement? Fitting all that in under 5300 characters is proving to be my most difficult task yet.

Forgot to mention: MCAT = 35 as well

 

[el_duderino]

I answered that in as much detail as I'm comfortable giving a few posts up.