How rigorous is med school?

[fonzy]

Hi,

Just curious about how difficult or easy it is to go through the med school. I have gone through grad school [engineering] at a reputed Univ. But there you do 9 or 12 hrs per semester. It is not that difficult to get a B average there.

Could you folks please give me the realistic picture of journey through MD program? It will help me very much.

thanks

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[Doctora Foxy]

it's kind of like endless torture with no reward for hard work...

(but I never liked school)

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by Doctora Foxy
it's kind of like endless torture with no reward for hard work...

(but I never liked school)

Definitely sounds like my finals week!

 

[Jalby]

It's not that bad. Just a ton of useless information, and a small amount of usefull information.

 

[dr barb]

I found the lifestyle much easier than expected. Although studying all that material could be quite time-consuming, it wasn't that stressful. This semester was expecially easy-going, in that attendance wasn't as much of an issue so I was able to study on my own, instead of always having to be bothered with going to class. The life of being a full-time student, not having to work, and not having to really worry about money (considering your financial aid is adequate) is an amazing gift. Anyone who has worked full-time and experienced the agony of working all the time in a job you hate to barely make ends meet, knows that the opportunity to devote all of your time to studying something that truly interests you is the most wonderful blessing one could hope for. Yes, it did require much more of a time commitment than I initially thought it would, and I found myself almost always having to give 110%, but I wouldn't trade that for a full-time job in data entry for all the money in the world!

 

[FrankMD]

I agree with dr barb and flindophile...
Lifestyle is definitely easier than what I expected, but you memorize endless amount of information that are sometimes useful. Some informations you just memorize because the professors tell you that it's going to be on the boards. I find science interesting so it's not as bad as what some of my classmates think, but if you don't like memorizing random facts you won't like medical school too much.

 

[pathstudent]

It isn't so much rigorous like say the detailed work needed to produce a math PhD.

It is more just a ton of information which you are expected to be able to recite verbatim in the form of multiple choice questions.

I'd say it is 85% memorization and 15% reasoning.

 

[southerndoc]

Like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hydrant.

It's doable though. If it was not doable, then there would be no new MD's graduating.

 

[BamaFlip]

I am sure everyone has heard the "its like trying to take a drink from a fire hose" simile. I never realized the truth to this until I actually got to med school last year. Med school to me is more like trying to study for undergrad finals everyday on top of being handed another 1/4 of a semesters worth of material each week just to keep things fun.

What you are sure to discover is that there is no true genious to success in medical school. It is all about how much you are willing to give the savage mistress that medical education can become. Don't worry about how well you will or won't do. Its not worth it. Just study hard, don't fall behind, and enjoy the ride. You'll do fine.

 

[southerndoc]

One must also come to realize that they are going to forget at least half the stuff they learn. It's really disappointing how much I've forgot from the first two years!

 

[babinski bob]

Med school is difficult because of the QUANTITY of information rather than the QUALITY. The quality of info encountered in graduate programs like biology, chemistry, math is much more challenging than the quality of info encountered in med school... just ask any med student who attended grad school first. Med school will kick your ass just because there is SO MUCH info, but it's all pretty straight forward... Most of it you just accept as fact rather than question the material like you would if you were in grad school. It's very doable though... Just learn to LOVE memorizing tons of useless info and hopefully remember the 10-15% that is clinically relevant and youll be set. easier said than done, of course..

 

[powermd]

Originally posted by flindophile

Facts belong on hard drives, not in our brains. Many medical educators don't seem to understand the difference between data, information and knowledge.

You must not be very far along in medical school. In order to do any serious thinking about a patient's problems, you need a large catalog of facts on which to base your reasoning. Clinicians don't have time to open a book and look up all the possible causes of abdominal pain every time a patient presents with this complaint. The patient could die in minutes if the clinician doesn't immediatly recognize what's wrong, and know what can be done to intervene. There's a phrase one of my surgery attendings would repeat over and over, and it should make the importance of factual knowlege obvious- "the eyes do not see what the mind does not know." You are not smart enough to derive all possible scenarios of a patient's complaint from your understanding of principles in medicine. Medicine is just too complicated. You must know what kinds of problems are possible and likely in a given patient, otherwise you will miss something important. There's only one way to accumulate this knowledge efficiently- memorization during med school and residency. If you have a better idea, I'd be curious to hear it.

 

[CANES2006]

Originally posted by BamaFlip
Med school to me is more like trying to study for undergrad finals everyday on top of being handed another 1/4 of a semesters worth of material each week just to keep things fun.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was explaining this to a family member just yesterday! Medical school is really like that. Yet, in the same way it is very doable.

 

[Back34]

It's like being in the Navy Seals for the mind

 

[Resident Alien]

Stuff like microbio, cell bio, genetics, embryo, anatomy, histo and biochem just need to be memorized.
The real quality is physiology and path(at least some of it) in my opinion, in terms of concepts that you need to grasp.

 

[Gauss]

ooooo an engy - what kind of engineering?
I was a mathematician (or still am?) so our minds may work in similar fashions.
You see med school requires the lowest form of intelligence - memorization. All you do is read, remember, regurgitate. And then you end up on the wards just walking around and talking to people or listening to their problems. Usually you get questions that there is no way you could possibly know the answer to and are clearly designed for someone to brag about what knowledge they have that you don't. It's quite sad really, they act like they have some 'special' secret knowledge that you could easily find by looking it up somewhere.
In general, most are intellectually insecure and constantly feel the need to prove their worth. If they could solve the Riemann hypothesis I would be impressed, but not 1 has been able to prove to me that the shortest path between 2 objects in 3 space is a straight line.
Trivial

 

[Lebesgue]

Originally posted by Gauss
ooooo an engy - what kind of engineering?
I was a mathematician (or still am?) so our minds may work in similar fashions.
You see med school requires the lowest form of intelligence - memorization. All you do is read, remember, regurgitate. And then you end up on the wards just walking around and talking to people or listening to their problems. Usually you get questions that there is no way you could possibly know the answer to and are clearly designed for someone to brag about what knowledge they have that you don't. It's quite sad really, they act like they have some 'special' secret knowledge that you could easily find by looking it up somewhere.
In general, most are intellectually insecure and constantly feel the need to prove their worth. If they could solve the Riemann hypothesis I would be impressed, but not 1 has been able to prove to me that the shortest path between 2 objects in 3 space is a straight line.
Trivial

Yes, RH would be quite something...

Tell me, how was the transition from galois theory and measure theory to medicine?

 

[fonzy]

Thanks for the great discussion!

Well, I have grad degrees in both ME and EE. But I have been doing work in biomedical engineering. I like neuroimaging. If at all I get admitted to an MD program, I will be going for radiology where I can do some work in neuroinformatics. I really do not like to memorize but I will if I have to.
Engineering does not give as much gratification as medicine where you see people geting benefits from your knowledge right in front of your eyes. Your knowledge has absolutely no negative effects. Health care is the best way to serve people. I am sure I my engineering knowledge will be useful in medicine as whatever they use in hospital [equipments] is based on engineering.

Why do you want them to prove that shortest distance stuff???
That is reducing 3-d to 2-d [the line in a plane, the plane being 2-d]. The real life is 3-d

Let us keep talking...

 

[Gauss]

Originally posted by fonzy
Well, I have grad degrees in both ME and EE. But I have been doing work in biomedical engineering. I like neuroimaging. If at all I get admitted to an MD program, I will be going for radiology where I can do some work in neuroinformatics. I really do not like to memorize but I will if I have to.
Engineering does not give as much gratification as medicine where you see people geting benefits from your knowledge right in front of your eyes. Your knowledge has absolutely no negative effects. Health care is the best way to serve people. I am sure I my engineering knowledge will be useful in medicine as whatever they use in hospital [equipments] is based on engineering.

Why do you want them to prove that shortest distance stuff???
That is reducing 3-d to 2-d [the line in a plane, the plane being 2-d]. The real life is 3-d

There is no avoiding memorization, you will be force fed material and have to memorize it.

You have a very naive, idealistic notion regarding health care. I have seen knowledge be more harmful than good and our health care system is by no means the best way to help people. REalize that this is not like tinkering with electronic equipment - you screw up and people suffer. There is not ctrl-alt-delete or reset button. Even your best intentions can turn into a disaster. Engineers don't hurt people - Docs do.

Using equipment and knowing how it works is for technicians, not MD's. Your job is to diagnose and treat, even surgeons use equipment as a means to an end and could care less how it works.
Maybe radiology if you're into particle or nuclear physics - but even then you're more involved in anatomy than physics.

Shortest path is a fundamentally simple notion that everyone takes as fact. If you can't prove something so basic to me, how can you prove anything to me? I said 3 space which really requires tensors.
Galois was fun - Riemannian Geometry was heaven
In Medicine I'm bored out of my freakin skull

 

[fonzy]

Gauss,

You say you are bored in medicine. Whys did you change from math to med? Maybe you can do mathematical modeling of biological systems. That world is so fascinating.
I will tell you something...I am a victim of medical assult...a doctor has injured me intentionally...that is one of the major factors why I want to get into med. During the procedure when I screamed in pain and told him it was hurting me, he laughed and injured me more. The nurse started crying. Now I need to go though invasive testing to prove the injury. Then there will be a lawsuit. But I will never overcome the shock I have got. An MD who is well known and earns so much money has acted like a beast. Even animals do not hurt you unless they feel threatened.
So I want to get into med and help people.

What do you say now....

best

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by fonzy
Gauss,

You say you are bored in medicine. Whys did you change from math to med? Maybe you can do mathematical modeling of biological systems. That world is so fascinating.
I will tell you something...I am a victim of medical assult...a doctor has injured me intentionally...that is one of the major factors why I want to get into med. During the procedure when I screamed in pain and told him it was hurting me, he laughed and injured me more. The nurse started crying. Now I need to go though invasive testing to prove the injury. Then there will be a lawsuit. But I will never overcome the shock I have got. An MD who is well known and earns so much money has acted like a beast. Even animals do not hurt you unless they feel threatened.
So I want to get into med and help people.

What do you say now....

best

Oh my God... If you don't mind my asking, what happened!??! I'm very sorry to hear about this experience. Why would anybody do that?

 

[SunnyS81]

Hey,

Stop trash talking the ME/EE.

He'll have to memorize, but how many people like memorizing? Give it to an engineer if you want to find the least amount of information you need to memorize (which is a lot less than people usually think).

There is definitely a place for the blend of engineering knowledge and MD in radiology. At several of my interviews, my interviewers who were radiologists were excited at the idea at the idea of things you can do in radiology if you know both digital image processing, advanced mathamatics, and medicine. If memory serves me correctly, Harvard and MIT have a joint MD program for people exactly like this.

 

[fonzy]

Originally posted by SunnyS81
Hey,

Stop trash talking the ME/EE.

What exactly do you mean?

 

[klinzou]

EE's rule!!!

 

[carrigallen]

Originally posted by fonzy

I will tell you something...I am a victim of medical assult...a doctor has injured me intentionally...that is one of the major factors why I want to get into med. During the procedure when I screamed in pain and told him it was hurting me, he laughed and injured me more. The nurse started crying. Now I need to go though invasive testing to prove the injury. Then there will be a lawsuit. But I will never overcome the shock I have got. An MD who is well known and earns so much money has acted like a beast. Even animals do not hurt you unless they feel threatened.

WTF. Why would a doctor purposely hurt someone like you describe?

It's not that I don't believe your story, only that I do believe it is implausible from the way it is described above.

 

[fonzy]

Originally posted by carrigallen
WTF. Why would a doctor purposely hurt someone like you describe?

It's not that I don't believe your story, only that I do believe it is implausible from the way it is described above.

It really happened. I was scheduled for something else but later on his PA scheduled me for this procedure. The doctor got mad about it. In fact I did not have any problem. They were just performing different procedures to make money. Also, it seemed he developed personal problem with me.
But after laparoscopy he might be in jail.

best

 

[irlandesa]

wow, it's amazing how many personality disorders can be diagnosed on this thread alone.. perhaps I have learned some useful information in the first 2 years after all!

 

[carrigallen]

Originally posted by fonzy

During the procedure when I screamed in pain and told him it was hurting me, he laughed and injured me more. The nurse started crying. Now I need to go though invasive testing to prove the injury. Then there will be a lawsuit. But I will never overcome the shock I have got.

well, i hope the big lawsuit teaches the surgeon a lesson about mercilessly torturing little boys on the operating table. best wishes with the litigation.

 

[fonzy]

Despite my belief that taking care of the health of people is the best way to serve the society [I do not mean to disparage other prefessions; I am myself an engineer], there are some black sheep in the medical profession. I do agree with Gauss about the malpractice. In my case, it was an assult, an inhuman act, not a mistake or negligence. I wanted to share my experience. That inspired me even more to get into this field and serve people. However I suffer from chronic pain now and will need nerve blocks. It is a nightmare.

Anyway I did not mean to digress anyone from the original issue.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by BamaFlip
I am sure everyone has heard the "its like trying to take a drink from a fire hose" simile. I never realized the truth to this until I actually got to med school last year. Med school to me is more like trying to study for undergrad finals everyday on top of being handed another 1/4 of a semesters worth of material each week just to keep things fun.

What you are sure to discover is that there is no true genious to success in medical school. It is all about how much you are willing to give the savage mistress that medical education can become. Don't worry about how well you will or won't do. Its not worth it. Just study hard, don't fall behind, and enjoy the ride. You'll do fine.

I totally agree with BamaFlip! It was like orgo finals every week.

Honestly, how can the lifestyle be good when you are memorizing boring stuff every week? I found basic science part of it unbearable especially when it is sunny outside. I mean, you get plenty of sleep and all, but super super boring stuff just make my standard of living goes downhill!!!!!

You know, I read some feedbacks from alumni who graduated from my undergrad. They returned some survey and leave them in the premed advising office. Many of them said that my undergrad prepared them for med school. I would just call those BS. Nothing will prepare you for med school (although I have heard that some Master's program in human anatomy or physiology cover a lot of the material in med school already and one of my classmates did go through it and honored pretty much everything and got junior AOA). Therefore, the only thing that my undergrad prepared us was to sit down and memorize the heck out of everything.

Then there is the 3rd year.... It was a torture.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65024

In the end, you have to find something within medicine that interests you or else, you will become bitter real soon