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How do you think this ruling will affect the landscape of Radiation Oncology?
How do you think this ruling will affect the landscape of Radiation Oncology?
This is a complex and politically divisive topic.
However we must learn to adapt. On one hand, I think it will be good for patients who can get more reasonable insurance rates. Also, it will prevent people from not getting insurance, becoming catastrophically ill, then getting the govt to pick up the tab. Having kids stay on their parent's policy until age 26 will also help.
It's interesting Obama didn't go for the single payer system but instead mandated that people buy a private insurance product. Better to have more private insurance in the mix rather than Medicaid/Medicare rates for everyone.
It's interesting Obama didn't go for the single payer system but instead mandated that people buy a private insurance product.
I think it will be a disaster. The only real specialties that are safe are those that can charge cash and don't need a hospital to provide services. Given that it's cheaper for many employers to simply pay the penalty "tax" than provide coverage, I would not be surprised if employers dropped employees left and right, which means the end of insurance, and more people covered under the gov. I think we have essentially just become a single payer system. Who in their right mind would cover their employees when it can simply pay a penalty and save thousands?
How much do you think medicare/medicaid will reimburse for services when they have no competition for private insurance?
You make no sense, right now it wouldn't cost anything for employers to not insure their employees; and they still offer insurance because it's a benefit they'll provide to keep those employees. So what you're saying is that in the future when the employers will get fined for not providing insurance, fewer employers will cover their employees?
I'm happy this law passed. It sickens me when I see a patient with cancer who can't get radiation because of lack of insurance.
Obviously, many things in play now. With the new law passed,the concept of employers offering health insurance to their employees is an interesting one, and it's tough to tell how things will go. The health insurance exchanges that the states/fed gov't will set-up will (theoretically) offer different types of plans of different cost/coverage (there will be a set of basic coverage requirements) in an effort to uncouple insurance from employment/employer status. How much will these plans cost? Low cost plans can definitely compete with current plans to lower costs, in order to better compete for individual and employer market share. There's this thought that employers want the best employees to work for them, and offering them good benefits is part of that attractive package - this is true now, but with the job shortage even a good employee can't exactly be picky. It may indeed be cheaper for certain employers to pay the fine, or they may resort to including the health insurance benefits but with lower salaries/vacation/bonus. Let's see.
One of the next questions after today's ruling is how Medicaid will expand. Fed gov't is offering a lot of money, enough for the states (who are already financially pressed) to chip in after the 3 years? With an additional 17 million people (I think that was the number) to be covered under Medicaid, how will hospitals/providers react? Medicaid is already an unpopular insurance among providers...
Lazers: I'm right there with you that I am very happy that our cancer patients will get coverage. Since companies can't look at pre-existing conditions, cancer survivors and those with the complex co-morbidities also have an opportunity to purchase health insurance at a fair rate, if not coupled with their employee. However, there's a lot of cost here, so costs have to be cut from somewhere else. Physician reimbursements have had downward pressure for a long time, and it'll continue. Aside from the ACA, have you guys been following MedPAC (Medicare Payment Advisory Committee) recommendations? These guys recommended a 5.9% cut x 3 years (close to >20% with inflation, etc) in Medicare reimbursement fees for all specialists fees across the board. The only ones untouched are primary care fields (however, inflation eats into these guys as well). These cuts are just for the next 3 years then they are supposed to stay frozen. However, what will be the mode of care delivery then? ACO? Medical homes? Some other kind of hospital-physician-payer relationship? Single payer (ahem, who knows, though doubtful)? Medicare is looking into prospective payment models (i.e. pay by the diagnosis instead of fee-for-service) for cancer hospitals too. Oncology has not yet been included in the ACO model, but its an ever-evolving landscape.
Today's ruling is about getting more patients into the risk pool by paying into the system. Hopefully, this will help in covering those patients who require substantial services but don't pay into the system at all. (And thanks to EMTALA, hospitals must stabilize/ doctors must treat then ship out to your nearest public hospital.) Today's ruling doesn't enforce some kind of a reduction in remibursement etc. But, the big change that will effect you, me, patients, other specialists, and primary care physicians will come in many different ways, including the future waves of novel, innovative care models that look to cut costs tremendously without changing quality one bit.
That ASTRO link was great, and having more patients covered (even if by a tax) is a good thing. I'm sure ASTRO and all of the medical societies will be watching closely and hopefully working together to make sure that these patients get care and integrated into the system.
I think there are a couple of other issues which come up for rad oncs (and a lot of physicians in general):
In order to let more people into the pool, that money has to come from somewhere and we are going to face not only potential reduction in reimbursement (around 6%) but increased taxes as well.
1) Medicare tax will be increased by about 1% on income over $200,000 for an individual, or $250,000 for a couple. That will jumpt to around 5% for investment gains.
2) Many of us who work for large hospitals or universities have excellent insurance plans; as it stands it has been estimated that 50-60% of job-associated plans fall into "Cadillac" plan status and therefore subject to a tax for the institution. I think this will put pressure on these insitutions to either scale back benefits for us or to take the $2000 or so hit per person and get rid of the benefits and let employees find their own insurance on the open market, a far more expensive proposition.
I certainly understand the need to insure as many as possible, the reality is that comes with a cost and it seems that the ACA puts those costs on high earners, those provided excellent benefits, and physicians/hospitals/health care oriented businesses which I don't agree with.
In other words, we get hit from all sides! What can we do to have a more stable situation, and to not get screwed from all angles?
As physicians, we can accept this inevitability, participate in the discussion and mold policies a bit more in our favor *OR* you can live in a fantasy land where you can bury your head in the sand and have our future soley dictated by government beuracrats and insurance companies.
Re: How are we going to pay for this?
Great points, and all of these will hit greater scrutiny now that the SCOTUS upheld the constitutionality of the core insurance mandate (aka healthcare/insurance tax). I didn't mention it yesterday since we were talking about the constitutionality of the ruling and how it would affect our patients, but I definitely have a big problem with how this expansion of insurance coverage is to be paid for. First, the gov't is going to put up $1 trillion more to help with the expansion of medicaid, helping to set-up the health insurance exchanges, and other costs. This trillion is coming from higher taxes for the wealthy, penalties, and fees (on hospitals, for example). If you make >$200k individual or >$250k married filing jointly you'll have to pay about ~1% more. Savvy investor and looking to make gains through the market? (Remember, this does include the elderly who are hoping to ride out their retirement with the interest/capital gains on their nest egg.) In these cases, at least a 2-3% (estimated at ~3.8% on a portion of this income as of now) increase in tax (maybe more).
If you've been counting on that medical flex spending account, it's likely that your max pre-tax dollars that go into it will not be $5000 (well, that limit was specific to my plan) but rather $2500 now (therefore increasing the amount you pay in taxes). As wagy mentioned, if the employer's cost for the employee's health insurance is > ~$10,000/yr (one way the fed govt defines cadillac insurances) there will be a tax on this plan. In essence, they want individuals and employers to choose lower cost insurance plans, which means possibly higher costs to the consumer via copays, deductibles, limitations on certain types of coverage, lower reimbursements to providers --> thereby decreasing the pot of healthcare money. If employers wish to keep providing these higher cost insurance plans, that extra tax to the employer will be funneled back into the federal govt system. The fed gov't is really hoping that this health insurance exchange creates a highway for *reasonably priced* insurances.
The next 1.5 years will be about reshaping the provisions in the law. However, the costs that wagy mentioned are potentially just a starting point, since the penalty employers or individuals need to pay for not getting insurances isn't a lot. This penalty needs to be able to sink its teeth ever deeper in order for there to be an incentive to actually buy the insurance; otherwise, its like adding a tax on more Americans that is supposed to go towards the health care pot. Add on top of that the fact that SCOTUS said that its unconstitutional for fed govt to basically "force" states into or out of medicaid (by threatening to withhold the large sums of money). If less states opt for this option of expanding state medicaid, then that means less people to be enrolled into medicaid (with current estimates, this could include 17 million new people). If there's less people in the medicaid or private insurance systems (since they opt'ed to pay the penalty), all of that means less people than we originally thought would be paying into the system --> which means that fed govt will likely need to increase more taxes to generate revenue to pay for the provisions of the law.
The end game looks like downward pressure on physician reimbursement (see my MedPAC comment above) and higher taxes for the wealthy. Supposedly more people will be taxed for health care, but when close to the majority of Americans do not pay into the tax system (income, etc due to many many reasons), a disproportionate amount of taxing will fall to the wealthy, who Democratic governments feel can and should pay higher taxes. I try to be as centrist as possible, and look fairly at the arguments, but its certain that taxes on the so called wealthy will increase under the current government. The thing is, doctors in general are in a precarious financial situation. We have huge debts that we carry into our 40's (maybe even 50's) and our main asset to our families is our ability to earn a larger salary, which continues to be eaten away by lower reimbursements and higher taxes.
What can we do? Honestly, becoming adept at the legislative/lobbying process can help and finding ways for the medical societies to band together. We're so busy with everything we're doing that adding another time killer to our schedules is not ideal. But voicing the concerns of physicians to your local lawmakers (your US House of Rep, even state lawmakers) is important, and if done in the right way, can help. Getting rid of the SGR, not taking a 20% cut to reimbursements over 3 yrs (MedPAC), and not increasing taxes are things we could all hope for. Support the medical societies who are helping in these efforts, and if you know of fellow rad onc residents who are interested in these things, encourage them!
As physicians, we can accept this inevitability, participate in the discussion and mold policies a bit more in our favor *OR* you can live in a fantasy land where you can bury your head in the sand and have our future soley dictated by government beuracrats and insurance companies.
Aside: Canadian doctors work hours like us and make just as much money as American doctors, more in some cases. Dirty little secret that nobody seems to know. Just ask them... They removed their salary caps. It's a pretty good gig up North. Looked into work there, but needed a fellowship to even be considered.
Aside: Canadian doctors work hours like us and make just as much money as American doctors, more in some cases. Dirty little secret that nobody seems to know. Just ask them... They removed their salary caps. It's a pretty good gig up North. Looked into work there, but needed a fellowship to even be considered.
And this is why we should be involved. Very involved. It's incredibly easy, especially for residents, to have an impact within your state medical societies. Go for it!
How do we get politically involved? And when can we as an overall profession make ourselves stronger?
I actually know very well one of the big public health docs in Canada - someone who has spear headed many of the healthcare reforms and has been a physician advocate. Canadian doctors are pretty happy it seems. They have a stable, known income (vs us - unstable, who knows what income will be next yr). The docs there have even gone on strike in the past for reimbursement issues, and they enter into collective bargaining agreements every year. For instance, all of the physicians in Toronto will get together to negotiate fees with the government. Of course, there's a back and forth, and with the glum fiscal outlook right now, the gov't in Canada wants to cut their salaries. However, their physicians are much more cohesive than we are in the US, and that can certainly help when negotiating. In the US, we're basically made up of hundreds of small businesses (of private practices) that are each negotiating separately with the insurance companies, and we basically don't negotiate the set medicare rates at all.
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to get involved. Tough thing is AMA supported this health care bill, and I'm not sure if I do or will. They sort of spoke as the "voice of doctors", but don't represent even half of us. What do the State Medical Societies do? I've looked into that, as well, but don't seem to see many events/conferences/activism. Rymd - let me know if you anything for MD/VA/DC.
-S
Simul- For you it'll be the YPS- the young physician section. (a ton of acronyms) I'll get you some info after the weekend.
You are right that the AMA supported this health care bill. There is a ton of background, though in the end it was sit at the table, or be eaten. The AMA chose the lesser of two evils (according to some)...
I've been trying to get more involved with AMA at the national level and the resident and fellows section coordinators have not been as helpful - would appreciate any advice rymd!
State medical societies can be a great venue as well, but depends on the state in terms of resident participation. I'm in a state where the state medical society is VERY strong, with a lot of political clout. I'm definitely hoping to get involved as much as I can...
I think its important to be cognizant of the fact that despite some Canadian physicians making more than their US counterparts, that it the exception, not the rule. You will find some physicians taking in $1 million/year in Canada, you will also find that in the US. On average, US physicians (and especially specialists) do out-earn their physician counterparts throughout the world. Physicians also generally fall in the higher income brackets, and thus physicians in Cananda and Europe pay higher taxes than we do.
Here's an article on the issue: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/
So, our take home pay is much higher than most anywhere else in the world.
That being said, physician reimbursements are not the reason that US health care costs so much. Physician reimbursements are about 20% of health care costs, and after overhead costs that physicians have to pay, its more like 10%. Cutting physician reimbursement is the "easy" solution, but it isn't an effective solution.
You want to have a voice? Join the AMA. And don't just join the AMA, donate to the AMA's PAC and donate to your specialty society's PAC.
I think the AMA was spot on for supporting PPACA because it achieved 80-90% of our goals despite it not addressing malpractice and having a few other flaws. It will help our patients and the profession of medicine immensely at a relatively low cost. I don't agree with all the ways its paid for either, but it FAR better than what the status quo was before. Talk to the AMA DC office. The AMA changed A LOT to make it much more favorable towards physicians.
Don't support AMA positions? Join the AMA and influence it! The AMA is a democratic organization and the House of Delegates makes policy in a democratic way. The fact is that the AMA is the most influential physician society in the country. If you don't like what's happening, you can take advantage of the AMA's immense influence to change that.
I think the biggest problem is the lack of security in reimbursement and that it keeps changing. Why can't they stick to a certain rate and keep it frozen at that rate, not changing constantly? Also I don't see why our salaries get cut when nurses salaries have increasingly gone up, with nurses in places like Kaiser making 54$/hour, CRNA's making more than many primary care docs, and so forth. Shouldn't those costs be reigned in? Clearly if the pie is getting smaller, it should start where the pie matters less and work up.
Maybe you like working for 150k after 13 years of education, but like someone else said, most of us did not sign up to be a martyr.
I'm sorry, I have to take issue with this bit of hyperbole. I think folks out there in the general public (i.e. our patients) would be pretty appalled to hear physicians equating making "only" 150k with martyrdom, especially during a time of economic turmoil. Martyrdom means that you willingly DIE for a greater purpose; pushing a Lexus instead of a Benz hardly qualifies. Let's take a step back and remember that we are incredibly lucky to be physicians, to have a job that makes a meaningful difference in people's lives while being (relatively) well compensated in the process. If the main reason you're in medicine is to make money, you're in the wrong field my friend.
Specialists have traditionally been so well compensated in the US not because they/we bring that much more inherent value to the health care system than other providers, but because our pay has been artificially inflated by an unsustainable fee-for-service model of health care. Does anyone really think that a radiation oncologist making $450k contributes 3 times as much to the public's well being than a primary care doc making $150k? Not to mention the fact that the primary care doc probably works more hours doing what most of us think of as a decidedly crappier job. But, as many have noted, this fee-for-service model is going to end one way or another and specialists' salaries are inevitably going to fall. We can complain about being martyrs, or we can engage in the process of reform to ensure that our patients' needs are being met by the new system. If, when the dust settles on reform, I end up making "only" $150k I will accept the change as a necessary part of a sustainable health care model; I hope most of my colleagues do the same.
Another huge problem is the fact that hospitals (and other ancillary healthcare facilities) are hiring NPs and PAs to stand in for physicians in order to "cut costs." Using NPs and PAs does indeed save the hospital money, in fact it might even generate more revenue because NPs and PAs call more consults and order more tests/scans... but in the end this substantially drives up overall healthcare costs for the nation as a whole.
*Disclaimer: I have nothing against NPs and PAs when utilized appropriately*
Clearly use of the word "marty" is hyperbole, but I don't think thats reason to dismiss the argument.
However, using 150k as an actual number to debate, I think clearly it is far too low for a residency that takes 5 years post graduation to complete. For those of us with very high student loans, starting a career at 35 with no savings, lost earnings since your early twenties, a small amount of consumer debt and a first mortgage in student loans 150K just isn't worth it, or sustainable.
I agree that we are lucky to be physicians, but it doesn't need to be a crime to want 13 years of education, training and sacrifice to be worth it financially long term. So while I'd like to be able to "accept the change as necessary", it would likely also make it necessary for me to find other employment so that I can afford to pay off loans, send my kids to college and retire someday. Just my 2 cents.
As an addendum: I agree that physicians need to have a greater voice in the changes, and that specialist incomes are going to fall, but knowing that they will fall eventually doesn't mean we need to blindly accept it as necessary when there is SO MUCH other rampant spending that could be cut to the greater benefit of savings in healthcare.
I'm sorry, I have to take issue with this bit of hyperbole. I think folks out there in the general public (i.e. our patients) would be pretty appalled to hear physicians equating making "only" 150k with martyrdom, especially during a time of economic turmoil. Martyrdom means that you willingly DIE for a greater purpose; pushing a Lexus instead of a Benz hardly qualifies. Let's take a step back and remember that we are incredibly lucky to be physicians, to have a job that makes a meaningful difference in people's lives while being (relatively) well compensated in the process. If the main reason you're in medicine is to make money, you're in the wrong field my friend.
Specialists have traditionally been so well compensated in the US not because they/we bring that much more inherent value to the health care system than other providers, but because our pay has been artificially inflated by an unsustainable fee-for-service model of health care. Does anyone really think that a radiation oncologist making $450k contributes 3 times as much to the public's well being than a primary care doc making $150k? Not to mention the fact that the primary care doc probably works more hours doing what most of us think of as a decidedly crappier job. But, as many have noted, this fee-for-service model is going to end one way or another and specialists' salaries are inevitably going to fall. We can complain about being martyrs, or we can engage in the process of reform to ensure that our patients' needs are being met by the new system. If, when the dust settles on reform, I end up making "only" $150k I will accept the change as a necessary part of a sustainable health care model; I hope most of my colleagues do the same.
Like others have said, I think its not that 150k is bad money, but for the sacrifice, years of education, hugeee opportunity costs, its not worth it.
Why would it be ok for us to make 150k when nurses make 100k, engineers make 100k, NP/PA make more than that, all with much less effort and cost?
We get paid nothing during residency. We deal with that. Now we don't get paid anything as attendings either?
Are you ok with making the same as the nurses who go home after their shift, or making less than them or CRNA's? I'm not. While I love being a doctor and helping patients I also believe I should be well compensated.
Like Sheldor said, many people are finishing long residencies at mid 30s, with lots of student loans, well over a decade than most people finish training, etc.
Are we saying that nurses and midlevels are more important than us since they get better well compensated then? If there are going to be cuts, then I think the first to be cut are those who are not essential, and to bring wages to a more "normal" distribution. I don't feel that I should be making 150k when the PA makes the same and the nurse makes 100k.
And as I have said before, I personally have no loans, and have a business that makes more than I would make in medicine, and my husband works and makes 6 figs. I would be happy to provide free care and to not turn someone away just because they could not pay. My dad was a doc, in another specialty, and I never saw him turn someone away just because of pay. But at the same time, in general, it does not mean that I don't want to be well compensated.
While my friends were having fun, I was studying my butt off for the MCAT, to get through pre-reqs, to get through med school, and the steps, and so on. I will never get that time back. I have post-poned many things in life, as I'm sure many of you have. And while I don't feel that I need to make astronomical amounts of money to be happy and practice and better the lives of my patients, I also feel that all our sacrifice and value needs to be recognized and paid accordingly. Further, I certainly don't think that I should be making the same as midlevels. No way!!!!
Someone please explain to me why there are nursing making 6 figures, and getting paid 40-60$ an hour, making 100-200k, and why there is money for that but not to pay physicians well? I'm very surprised no one is more upset about this, and why we keep just taking it like there is no tomorrow. Nurses, for example, made as much as some PCPs with overtime pay. They have blocked several bills by the White House to stop overtime pay. I ask-why arent nurses salaried employees like many doctors? How is it ok for docs ot take a pay cut but not to for nurses? Why do they work in shifts, but we work 30 hours straight? If no one is bothered by this, again I am shocked. Cutting nurse overtime would likely save billions. Why are these nurses successful in their attempts to block their salary reductions but us, as doctors and as the ones who are the most essential part of the healthcare structure, continuously lose ground? It boggles my mind.
The nursing lobby is very powerful. Nursing organizations make political donations and public endorsements of candidates. No one wants to cross them. Physicians just don't organize the same way and there aren't as many of us.
Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my (apparently more incendiary than anticipated) post. I think folks make a lot of good points. A couple things in response:
1) I do happen to think that radiation oncologists (and specialists in general) should be paid more than 150k, and that we should continue to be compensated better than nurses, PAs, PCPs, etc. But the world is full of highly educated, bright, hardworking people who contribute a ton to society and don't get paid very well in return. Teachers with master's degrees get paid 40-50k for a challenging job that requires long hours. Physics professors (who are the intellectual "cream of the crop" by most measures and spent >6 years in earning a PhD) get paid 80-100k for similarly hard work. Even within radiation oncology, folks in academia take a substantial pay cut compared to PP yet work way harder. The point is that there is only a weak link between income and intelligence/education years/hard work in society in general, and I don't think we as physicians should feel entitled to a particular salary when so many others out there are doing hard work and good work for much, much less. By all means let's advocate for our ourselves as physicians and ensure that we get a fair slice of the shrinking health care pie, but just take a deep breath and realize that nobody reading this post is going to die in penury as a result of a modest pay cut.
2) Yes, nurses do make a pretty decent salary, especially for length of training and hours worked. But even if nursing salaries were identical to physician salaries, I would still choose to be a physician (even with the long training and long hours), mainly because I think being a doc is a way better job! We get to develop great relationships with patients, tackle complex and interesting clinical questions, and generally get mad respect. No code browns, no sponge baths, no getting orders barked at me by entitled physicians. I wonder- how many people on this thread would rather be a floor nurse than a physician given identical pay? Maybe I'm in the minority on this.....
Couldn't agree more with you. The problem is that regardless of who owns the equpment, if it is a private entity (physician, private equity group, etc.) there will always be pressure placed and incentives given to the treating physicians to maximize return on investment. How do we eliminate this to practice medicine in an ethical and evidence based manner without eliminating the private model? I know a lot of private groups that do but every 10 that act the right way 1 or 2 aren't and they set the tenor for this discussion.
How do you think this ruling will affect the landscape of Radiation Oncology?
Question:
Why should any physician own any equipment that they can self-refer to? I went to advocacy day, and lobbied for closure of the Stark loophole. But then, I thought about it. The incentive is still to over treat, no matter what specialty owns the linac. I'm just saying, if we studied fractionation patterns at academic centers vs. freestanding centers, we might be a little embarrassed at what we find...