How the hell do you produce 1.5 MILLION a year???

[kerrydds06]

I was chatting with one of our part time faculty who does over one and a half million a year!!! 4 day work week, solo, 3 hygenist and he helps out in our clinic one day a week.

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

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[Rezdawg]

How realistic is this?

I'd appreciate it if all the following responses confirm these possibilities.

 

[jmill0]

Just got done having dinner with a classmate of mine that will do about $1.8 million on 4 days with 2 Hygienists. He works hard though.

I'll finish this year at about $1.3 million 4 days a week with 1 hygienist.

And we've been out for only five years......

Possible? Absolutely!

 

[jk5177]

Can you say more about how that is possible?

I imagine that's only for non-competitive areas of the country.

 

[jmill0]

Can you say more about how that is possible?

I imagine that's only for non-competitive areas of the country.

Non-competitive? I dunno. He's from Lexington, KY where there's a dental school and ton of dentists. I'm in Nashville and there's quite a few more here. Not exactly the "boonies"!

I don't understand how it is NOT possible. What the hell are these docs doing all day in these practices that do $400K?

I keep my hygienist busy with a full schedule and do as much as I can from 2-3 chairs. My schedule is not full every day. Converting from hygiene to my side every day helps. Going ahead and doing that crown or two fillings while they are in the office if I have time.

Doing a root canal a day as well as 2-3 crowns and about 10 fillings is not hard to do. Throw in an extraction or two.... easily $4k on my side. This is the AVERAGE too. If I do an Invisalign case or a Smile Design a couple of times a month, it decreases what I have to do for the other days. Hygienist does about $1K a day. $5K for an easy day. Translates to a million dollars a year.

BTW, my friend and I are both HEAVY into PPO plans and don't get that "full fee" most docs seem to think you have to get to get the million dollar practice. We even both take some public aid as well.

If you break it down and schedule your patients right, $5-6K a day is really not that tough. I've had several $10-15K days that seemed easier than some $2K days because of the schedule.

 

[Rezdawg]

My submandibular gland is about to explode.

 

[Brav989]

So curious..after you pay your staff and all the other bills associated with having a practice, how much money do you actually take home at the end of the year?

 

[drhobie7]

So curious..after you pay your staff and all the other bills associated with having a practice, how much money do you actually take home at the end of the year?

I believe typical overhead for a general dentist is 60-80%, average being 70%. I may be wrong and would like to hear from the practicing dentists their experience with overhead.

 

[jmill0]

So curious..after you pay your staff and all the other bills associated with having a practice, how much money do you actually take home at the end of the year?

My overhead is high. A little over 70%. You figure it from there.........

 

[Brav989]

As per overhead..What exactly are all the expenditures that come with having a private practice?

 

[jk5177]

That's exactly what I'm saying. For the dentist that's making 4,000,000 dollars, after 75% expense that still leaves 1,000,000 dollars. Comparing 1,000,000 to the average of 170,000 is a huge difference. To truly determine if 1 million is an outlier, we need to have the standard deviation that's associated with the average. Without the SD, I still think that 1 million is an outlier case rather than the norm. That's an unbelievable amount of money.

 

[teefRcool]

That's exactly what I'm saying. For the dentist that's making 4,000,000 dollars, after 75% expense that still leaves 1,000,000 dollars. Comparing 1,000,000 to the average of 170,000 is a huge difference. To truly determine if 1 million is an outlier, we need to have the standard deviation that's associated with the average. Without the SD, I still think that 1 million is an outlier case rather than the norm. That's an unbelievable amount of money.

Maybe their averaging the dentists that work for other dentists which should make much less + the dentists that have their own practices.

 

[ElDienteLoco]

I think you guys are missing it... If he produces 1.3 million, he only makes $390k assuming his collections are close to 100%. 390k is still higher than whatever national average you want to claim, but there are very few doctors who are making $1,000,000 take home on their own solo practice (unless you want to count the fraudulent ones).

After liberal-induced redistribution of income (aka taxes for "the wealthiest Americans"), that 390k is a lot closer to 200k and that is still a lot of money, but by no means puts you on the Forbes list.

 

[jk5177]

(ah... the days of DAT math)

Revenue - Cost = Profit

4 million - 3 million = 1 million. Then tax that million, one still gets a whole load of money, is that possible? I'm claiming it's not, but the OP say it is possible. ???

 

[Rezdawg]

(ah... the days of DAT math)

Revenue - Cost = Profit

4 million - 3 million = 1 million. Then tax that million, one still gets a whole load of money, is that possible? I'm claiming it's not, but the OP say it is possible. ???

Where did the OP mention 4 million?

 

[jpollei]

I was chatting with one of our part time faculty who does over one and a half million a year!!! 4 day work week, solo, 3 hygenist and he helps out in our clinic one day a week.

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

How realistic is that? Easy if you do ortho. Latest AAO numbers: 3.5 days/wk avg and $390,000/yr avg income. And that's low. $1.5 mil/yr is easy for ortho...and still not unheard of for a GP (depending on the location). I wouldn't disbelieve it (though I imagine his fees are at probably on the very high end of things).

 

[jmill0]

As per overhead..What exactly are all the expenditures that come with having a private practice?

Here's what my expenses are broken down to every month (minus the actual numbers of course!!)

EXPENSES:
SALARIES - DOCTOR
SALARIES - HYGIENE
SALARIES - DENTAL ASSISTANTS
SALARIES - BUSINESS ASSISTANTS
SALARIES - OTHER
PROFESSIONAL SUPPLIES
ARESTIN
LAB FEES
INVISALIGN LAB FEES
RENT
LEASEHOLD/EQUIPMENT LEASE EXPENSE
UNIFORM/OSHA
CLEANING
OFFICE SUPPLIES
POSTAGE/DELIVERY
PRINTING
UTILITIES
TELEPHONE
MARKETING
REPAIRS & MAINTENANCE
LEGAL & ACCOUNTING
CREDIT CARD FEES
INSURANCE
DUE/FEES/SUBSCRIPTIONS
DONATIONS/CONTRIBUTIONS
MEETINGS
TRAVEL EXPENSE
MEALS
PAYROLL TAXES
TAXES
MISCELLANEOUS
ADVERTISING
SEMINARS/CONT EDUCATION
401(K) EXPENSES
EMPLOYEE BENEFITS
BAD DEBT EXPENSE
TOTAL EXPENSES

 

[Rube]

I think you guys are missing it... If he produces 1.3 million, he only makes $390k assuming his collections are close to 100%. 390k is still higher than whatever national average you want to claim, but there are very few doctors who are making $1,000,000 take home on their own solo practice (unless you want to count the fraudulent ones).

After liberal-induced redistribution of income (aka taxes for "the wealthiest Americans"), that 390k is a lot closer to 200k and that is still a lot of money, but by no means puts you on the Forbes list.

Isn't there a way around paying straight up personal income tax on your profits. Like paying yourself a year end bonus at LTCG tax rates. I think getting taxed at 15% is a pretty nice savings.

 

[dentister]

How realistic is that? Easy if you do ortho. Latest AAO numbers: 3.5 days/wk avg and $390,000/yr avg income. And that's low. $1.5 mil/yr is easy for ortho...and still not unheard of for a GP (depending on the location). I wouldn't disbelieve it (though I imagine his fees are at probably on the very high end of things).

Where did you get that number for Ortho?
All of the orthodontists I met are complaining about competition and OEC. They are doing great but not that great. Last time I checked, ortho's avg income is around 270,000, less than both endo and OS.
Endo is probably the way to go.

 

[jpollei]

Where did you get that number for Ortho?
All of the orthodontists I met are complaining about competition and OEC. They are doing great but not that great. Last time I checked, ortho's avg income is around 270,000, less than both endo and OS.
Endo is probably the way to go.

From ortho programs, and another source (though I'm not sure if it's published, so I'll try to get an actual link/article before I spread any more heresay). Most orthos I know that are 5+ yrs in practice actually make more than what I said...many over $500K.

There are complaints about competition in some locales, and OEC is a pariah that may couase future problems more than now from a saturation perspective...that said, if we as orthodontists and general dentists inform the public of OEC/traditional program differences, then OEC will likely only attract a certain type of patients and not impact most of us to a large extent.

Whatever you want to practice (ortho, endo, OS, etc.) is the way to go. The $$$ is going to be more than enough to live on no matter which specialty you choose.

 

[jk5177]

Whatever you want to practice (ortho, endo, OS, etc.) is the way to go. The $$$ is going to be more than enough to live on no matter which specialty you choose.

And this is why I look into specialities.

Good thread.

 

[jk5177]

Where did the OP mention 4 million?

You're right, it was never mentioned. My bad. Minus one point.

 

[bkwash]

what is OEC?

 

[ItsGavinC]

There are complaints about competition in some locales, and OEC is a pariah that may couase future problems more than now from a saturation perspective...that said, if we as orthodontists and general dentists inform the public of OEC/traditional program differences, then OEC will likely only attract a certain type of patients and not impact most of us to a large extent.

The Imagine Dental offices (OEC practices) here in the Phoenix east valley are swamped with patients, for what it's worth.

 

[ItsGavinC]

And this is why I look into specialities.

Good thread.

But don't forget that general dentists can and do earn incomes that eclipse those of specialists. Because of this, money ought to not be your deciding factor, and you *really* ought to choose something that interests you. If you can't decide then practice for a couple of years, or do a GPR/AEGD and apply to specialties.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

Quite realistic, depending on the patient pool. A couple of crowns (or a 3-unit bridge), 5-10 fillings, and a simple RCT could cover that 5k.

 

[kato999]

The Imagine Dental offices (OEC practices) here in the Phoenix east valley are swamped with patients, for what it's worth.

From the ortho's I have talked to, the non-oec practices are swamped with patients as well in the east valley. It still blows my mind because I swear I see an ortho office on every other corner.

 

[eddyRDH]

I was chatting with one of our part time faculty who does over one and a half million a year!!! 4 day work week, solo, 3 hygenist and he helps out in our clinic one day a week.

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

I am a hygienist and I have worked in similar practices before.

Think about it, bleaching $500, crowns $800, veneers, fillings.... the list is endless.

Now consider your hygiene department.... $79 a pano, $42 bitewings, $58 prophy , $42 for an exam, and $26 for fluoride treatment. Oh, here is the kicker, perio scale: $175 per quad!!!!! Don't forget arestin @ $26 per tooth with 5mm pocket or more!!!

A practice reaching over 1 million can only do so with a strong staff.....
Front desk (very crucial, they see them before they see you!)
Hygiene ( crucial as well, patients will be seeing them every 6 mos or every 3mos)
Dental Assistant- must be very people oriented as well.... the pt will be spending as much time (if not more) with the assistant than you.
DDS- not only here to take care of patients....but must be very business oriented as well!!!!

Don't forget...... retain your patients! Make them happy!!! They will continue to come back and refer people, making your client list SOLID !!!!

To keep the pt happy, the staff has to be happy. My DDS gives us bonuses and other perks to keep production flowing smoothly and happily!

 

[dentister]

From ortho programs, and another source (though I'm not sure if it's published, so I'll try to get an actual link/article before I spread any more heresay). Most orthos I know that are 5+ yrs in practice actually make more than what I said...many over $500K.

There are complaints about competition in some locales, and OEC is a pariah that may couase future problems more than now from a saturation perspective...that said, if we as orthodontists and general dentists inform the public of OEC/traditional program differences, then OEC will likely only attract a certain type of patients and not impact most of us to a large extent.

Whatever you want to practice (ortho, endo, OS, etc.) is the way to go. The $$$ is going to be more than enough to live on no matter which specialty you choose.

jpollei,
Do you plan on applying to ortho or endo?
If you have information regarding endo income, please post them.

 

[Sprgrover]

...Don't forget...... retain your patients! Make them happy!!! They will continue to come back and refer people, making your client list SOLID !!!!

To keep the pt happy, the staff has to be happy. My DDS gives us bonuses and other perks to keep production flowing smoothly and happily!

This is great advice, not just for a dental office, but for any business. One of the many valuable lessons I learned in my business management and leadership skills courses was that good staff members are worth their weight in gold and treat them as such.

 

[edkNARF]

This is great advice, not just for a dental office, but for any business. One of the many valuable lessons I learned in my business management and leadership skills courses was that good staff members are worth their weight in gold and treat them as such.

Agreed. When I worked in the business world, the internal company motto was that in order for the employees to care of the customers effectively, managment must take care of the employees even more effectively.

 

[aphistis]

Where did you get that number for Ortho?
All of the orthodontists I met are complaining about competition and OEC. They are doing great but not that great. Last time I checked, ortho's avg income is around 270,000, less than both endo and OS.
Endo is probably the way to go.

I dunno about that. I did my first root canal Friday afternoon (start to finish in one appointment! ), and it was cool, but I don't know that I could make a career out of them.

 

[drhobie7]

But don't forget that general dentists can and do earn incomes that eclipse those of specialists. Because of this, money ought to not be your deciding factor, and you *really* ought to choose something that interests you. If you can't decide then practice for a couple of years, or do a GPR/AEGD and apply to specialties.

Very true. Good advice.

 

[ItsGavinC]

From the ortho's I have talked to, the non-oec practices are swamped with patients as well in the east valley. It still blows my mind because I swear I see an ortho office on every other corner.

Very true!

 

[ItsGavinC]

I dunno about that. I did my first root canal Friday afternoon (start to finish in one appointment! ), and it was cool, but I don't know that I could make a career out of them.

Right on! Glad you had a good experience. I'm doing #4 on Monday and #5 on Tuesday. Hopefully I can finish em' up nicely.

 

[kerrydds06]

very good input everyone. but how do I determine my fees?
Bleaching $500!!! I dunno if i can sleep well charging this much for peroxide?

 

[jk5177]

My DDS gives us bonuses and other perks to keep production flowing smoothly and happily!

What kind of perks do you get?

 

[phremius]

what kind of animal lives off of 390k a year?!?! You'd still have to fly coach on that.

**** I want to quit school right now.

 

[esclavo]

I was chatting with one of our part time faculty who does over one and a half million a year!!! 4 day work week, solo, 3 hygenist and he helps out in our clinic one day a week.

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

Did he have a solarium on the side of his practice growing some suspicious plant life? Young people standing behind the building with AC/DC t-shirts smoking cigs?

In all reality, good for him. In America, the sky is the limit. I love it. If we let the communists take over the country we'll all work hard (inefficiently) and give over half of it to people who don't have the burning dream, work drive, and stubborness to know how to get there. I love this country. One generation from trailer park in some small town from parents who didn't even finish high school to the potential of being a millionaire, secure, and personally fulfilled. I'm not just talking about dentistry....just gotta dream a little and bust your hump.... instead of asking how your professor can possibly do what he claims, say why not!

 

[TKD]

Very true!

GavinC, what are the non-oec practices doing?? lowering fees?

 

[Pelotari]

Where did the OP mention 4 million?

Excuse my lack of knowledge in this forum's acronysms, but what the heck is OP?

TAB (Thanks a Bunch).

 

[Rezdawg]

Excuse my lack of knowledge in this forum's acronysms, but what the heck is OP?

TAB (Thanks a Bunch).

OP = Original Poster...thread starter.

 

[maksidaa]

just to add some info a dentist i shadow just opened his own practice in january 2005 and by the end of august had done $750k. that's just his first year and he only had one hygeniest for several months. he said over the next few years he should be doing between 1 and 1.5 million a year with between 60-70% overhead.

 

[Unemployed]

just to add some info a dentist i shadow just opened his own practice in january 2005 and by the end of august had done $750k. that's just his first year and he only had one hygeniest for several months. he said over the next few years he should be doing between 1 and 1.5 million a year with between 60-70% overhead.

where's his location?

 

[jpollei]

jpollei,
Do you plan on applying to ortho or endo?
If you have information regarding endo income, please post them.

Already applied to ortho...endo typically does as well as ortho or better (income is about the same, but endos often work 1/2 day less per week).

 

[jpollei]

very good input everyone. but how do I determine my fees?
Bleaching $500!!! I dunno if i can sleep well charging this much for peroxide?

I imagine my mechanic sleeps fine charging $80/hr to fix whatever on my car...and that without a 4 year professional and/or college degree. Charge what you feel you're worth.

 

[Bifid Uvula]

To keep the pt happy, the staff has to be happy. My DDS gives us bonuses and other perks to keep production flowing smoothly and happily!

Perks like... being able to keep your job

 

[ItsGavinC]

I imagine my mechanic sleeps fine charging $80/hr to fix whatever on my car...and that without a 4 year professional and/or college degree. Charge what you feel you're worth.

Sage advice.

 

[Happy2th]

Here's what my expenses are broken down to every month (minus the actual numbers of course!!)

EXPENSES:
SALARIES - DOCTOR
SALARIES - HYGIENE
SALARIES - DENTAL ASSISTANTS
SALARIES - BUSINESS ASSISTANTS
SALARIES - OTHER
PROFESSIONAL SUPPLIES
ARESTIN
LAB FEES
INVISALIGN LAB FEES
RENT
LEASEHOLD/EQUIPMENT LEASE EXPENSE
UNIFORM/OSHA
CLEANING
OFFICE SUPPLIES
POSTAGE/DELIVERY
PRINTING
UTILITIES
TELEPHONE
MARKETING
REPAIRS & MAINTENANCE
LEGAL & ACCOUNTING
CREDIT CARD FEES
INSURANCE
DUE/FEES/SUBSCRIPTIONS
DONATIONS/CONTRIBUTIONS
MEETINGS
TRAVEL EXPENSE
MEALS
PAYROLL TAXES
TAXES
MISCELLANEOUS
ADVERTISING
SEMINARS/CONT EDUCATION
401(K) EXPENSES
EMPLOYEE BENEFITS
BAD DEBT EXPENSE
TOTAL EXPENSES

That looks like it came from Heartland.

 

[Happy2th]

I was chatting with one of our part time faculty who does over one and a half million a year!!! 4 day work week, solo, 3 hygenist and he helps out in our clinic one day a week.

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

1.5 million is very doable with the right systems in place. We're going to do close to $1.7 million this year.

1 dentist (yours truly)
3 hygienists
3 dental assistants
1 hygiene assistant
1 receptionist
2 schedulers
1 finance coordinator
7 operatories

Overhead is 70%. We work 4 days per week, 8 am to 5 pm with an hour for lunch.