How to avoid scam in GP jobs

[Shim-stock]

Hello this thread is for GPs to raise awareness among them against scam jobs; this thread will be obviously severely attacked by some DSOs, owners and specialists who try to make the GP a cheap, ugly, limited and by all means not rewarding job. This behavior in my opinion has been linked to some of the suicidal cases that I have heard about and knew myself and so please GPs this is a big deal. In fact, I really belive that there should be an organization for GPs only to defend their rights and protect them against the ugly nature of some greedy and mentally-ill people in the community

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[PerioDont]

could you share some of your experiences? sounds like you have some first hand knowledge

 

[2TH MVR]

Yeah. Lets hear some examples.

 

[Shim-stock]

This is where I want GPs to share their bad experiences so "GPs" can learn from each others and avoid any scams or dirty schemes
My experiences:
Worked for a DSO that never told me at time of signing my contract that I cannot do extractions or implants because "we have to keep the specialist busy"; I did GPR and so I am trained in doing IV sedation, extractions, implants even patients in OR; did not stay there for long
Interviewed with an office owner who after pushing him he confessed that he just wants me to do fillings because he is busy with doing extractions and implants and does not want to do the low yield procedures anymore; did not accept the job
Worked with a medicaid DSO hoping to help low income patients but could not last there for more than few months; they provided me with very old and rusty tools; you have to use your burs for very long time even if they do not cut anymore; you have to buy your own tools to do what you need to do; you have DAs that have no idea about their job (have zero training, straight from the streets into patient mouth)
Now, I am doing perio residency

 

[charlestweed]

Different owners hire associates for different reasons:

1. Owners want the associate to take care of the quicker easier cases for them so they can spend more time doing more difficult/time consuming procedures (molar endo, implants, ext 3rds etc). It’s their practice and their reputation, which takes many years for them to build, and they want to make sure the more challenging cases are done right and get fewer complaints from patients.

2. Some owners accept HMO plans and they want certain cases to be performed by their in-house specialists. That’s because HMO plans pay the GP's nothing but they pay the specialists something (not much but still better than if the GP's do these procedures). HMO offices tend to have higher patient volume and they need to hire associates to help out.

3. They are getting older and want to take time off to be with their family. They want the associate to work on Saturdays and certain days of the week that they don’t want to work.

4. They own multiple offices and can’t be full time at each of the offices.

When you look for a job, it’s important to know the reasons why the owner wants to hire you during the interview. If you have a lot of clinical experiences and can do a wide variety of procedures quickly, it’s best to look for an office that has no owner present (option #3 or 4). But if you just want to have easy low stress job, then choice #1 is not a bad one. There are some older dentists who just want an easy associate job (choice #1) because they are near the retirement age....they don’t want to deal with the stress of owning a practice/the stress of getting sued...they don’t need to make a lot of money.

You will never be 100% happy working as an associate. Practice ownership is the only way that you can have full autonomy. For the owners to pay you well, they have to cut cost somewhere else….such as hiring low pay inexperience assistants or using cheap supplies. If you want to work at a high end, high overhead office with good well paid assistants, then don’t expect the owner to pay you well. Dentistry is a business.

 

[Shim-stock]

Reality is DSOs and owners who do not care about their associate GPs end up having to hire a new associate every 6 months or even less which damages the reputation of the place and cause it to lose patients and so it is very bad for the business. I myself have witnessed this happening in a DSO office that was interviewing for GPs, as soon as I looked at the numbers and schedule I understood that this place keeps flipping GPs. hygienist left afterward, periodontist began to have less busy schedule and so he no longer came and the office was sold to another DSO.
On the other hand, those GPs who found good positions and worked hard benefited themselves and the place they worked for. So in other words, part of having successful business is to take care of your associate GPs and invest in them

 

[emma_m]

I interviewed with several DSOs and I realized in the first 2 minutes I will never fit their culture.
The moment I hear during an interview the word “production”, I know that’s not going to work for me.
I think specialty is the way to go if it’s not too much of a financial burden. You get advanced training and more respect from both GPs and patients.
Eventually you can find good jobs in private practice too as a GP, but it takes time and you never know how they will go. It’s like dating; everything is perfect in the beginning.
You are going to do great as a periodontist. Good luck!

 

[Roto Picante]

I don't agree with everything @charlestweed says but he is spot on here. The fact of the matter is, the owners take all of the risks and thus get to reap the benefits. Yes you are a DDS/DMD but until you sign for a practice loan, you are just an employee. And as is true with any other JOB, there are good boss/jobs and bad ones. The only way avoid this is become a boss yourself.

 

[2TH MVR]

I interviewed with several DSOs and I realized in the first 2 minutes I will never fit their culture.
The moment I hear during an interview the word “production”, I know that’s not going to work for me.
I think specialty is the way to go if it’s not too much of a financial burden. You get advanced training and more respect from both GPs and patients.
Eventually you can find good jobs in private practice too as a GP, but it takes time and you never know how they will go. It’s like dating; everything is perfect in the beginning.
You are going to do great as a periodontist. Good luck!

You're being naive. Production is a reality whether a DSO or private practice. A dental practice exists to make a profit so you can pay your bills. There was a time when just being a dentist was good enough financially. With this new economy, marketing, online e-commerce, Corps, entitlement issues ...... practicing dentistry is a whole lot harder.

 

[PerioDont]

I interviewed with several DSOs and I realized in the first 2 minutes I will never fit their culture.
The moment I hear during an interview the word “production”, I know that’s not going to work for me.
I think specialty is the way to go if it’s not too much of a financial burden. You get advanced training and more respect from both GPs and patients.
Eventually you can find good jobs in private practice too as a GP, but it takes time and you never know how they will go. It’s like dating; everything is perfect in the beginning.
You are going to do great as a periodontist. Good luck!

curious what you are doing now? In private practice?

I agree with @2TH MVR overall production is reality of dental practice...it's a business.

 

[Shim-stock]

curious what you are doing now? In private practice?

I agree with @2TH MVR overall production is reality of dental practice...it's a business.

Hey PerioDont are you looking for jobs? LOL

 

[Shim-stock]

One thing I am going to add here; I have seen a periodontist fired because of "speed" and not being able to sell perio treatments (which are typically expensive) to patients. I guess no one is immune in this market. It could be that the best way to go at it is to start to raise awareness and promote respect and appreciation among dental practitioners (GPs and specialists)

 

[PerioDont]

Hey PerioDont are you looking for jobs? LOL

lol. I actually am, got a bit over a year left in my residency so not too early imo to start scoping

 

[Shim-stock]

lol. I actually am, got a bit over a year left in my residency so not too early imo to start scoping

Just as a heads up, there is some saturation in perio field mainly because no one is retiring LOL (according to what I understood from my seniors in the program)

 

[yappy]

You're being naive. Production is a reality whether a DSO or private practice. A dental practice exists to make a profit so you can pay your bills. There was a time when just being a dentist was good enough financially. With this new economy, marketing, online e-commerce, Corps, entitlement issues ...... practicing dentistry is a whole lot harder.

I 100% disagree with the bold.

 

[Shim-stock]

You're being naive. Production is a reality whether a DSO or private practice. A dental practice exists to make a profit so you can pay your bills. There was a time when just being a dentist was good enough financially. With this new economy, marketing, online e-commerce, Corps, entitlement issues ...... practicing dentistry is a whole lot harder.

Alright! why MDs are not affected by this economy; in fact, their salaries are continuously increasing vs dentists and specialists (not all). BIG difference between ADA and AMA. Big difference between an MD owner hiring an MD fellow and a DDS/DMD owner hiring a fellow. Both are taking risks as owners, one is respecting his profession and understanding that by enabling and investing in his associate both will be making way more vs dentist owner who just want to pretty much enslave his associate

 

[emma_m]

I am not naive at all. I have previously practiced dentistry and I know very well that when you do good dentistry and maintain your standards very high, money will follow. I also like building a relationship with my patients and not seeing them like walking bags of money. I treat my patients just as I would want my dentist to treat me and patients appreciate that. I never complain about long working hours and I am available whenever necessary. That’s how I have always been professionally.
I did not want to work for DSOs for many reasons, some of which were listed above. Here is how I see dentistry and how I currently practice (in private practice): I do all my restorative under rubber dam isolation unless the patient has some situations where I have to use DryShield (exacerbated asthma/extreme odontophobia/breathing problems/claustrophobia). I use brushes for my direct restorations and model them cusp by cusp until I am perfectly happy with the result. I don’t like “pancake dentistry”. I am allowed to order whatever brand of composites, modeling resin, finishing and polishing kits, rubber dam clamps etc. Try negociating with a DSO to buy a good quality rubber dam for you. They will laugh to your face. I do surgical extractions, 3rd molar extractions, bone grafts, implants and I am allowed to chose what I want to refer and what I want to do and also what biomaterials to use. I do prosthodontics too and emergency care. There are procedures I don’t like doing and nobody ever tried to force me to do any. I was very clear during the interview regarding my expectations. Never mentioned anything about money, just focused on what can help me deliver excellent dental care (CBCT, intraoral scanner, RD as a must, high quality materials and dental lab etc).
I remember one interview with a DSO. In my first minute of discussion I told them I don’t do pediatric dentistry and the interviewer told me I am not a good fit and abruptly ended the zoom meeting 🤣. So rude! I could not work with people who act like that. Another DSO told me they need to keep their specialists busy and will not allow me to do even simple extractions, let alone implants. The best way to demotivate a person is to set up barriers for them.
I firmly believe that as an employer when you treat your employees with respect, support them to perform at the best of their abilities, they will go above and beyond to make your practice more productive. I am very well aware dentistry is a business but I want to be able to go to sleep at night knowing that I did not fail my patients’ trust, that I did something good. My boss (who is a person I look up to professionally) sees that I care and I am not superficial and production oriented and I was told this is a very good quality that I have.
Working with everything you need to provide good care makes you faster, which ultimately makes you more productive financially.

 

[emma_m]

One thing I am going to add here; I have seen a periodontist fired because of "speed" and not being able to sell perio treatments (which are typically expensive) to patients. I guess no one is immune in this market. It could be that the best way to go at it is to start to raise awareness and promote respect and appreciation among dental practitioners (GPs and specialists)

I would rather work with a periodontist who takes their time during procedures and does them well than with someone who rushes everything and who will eventually botch a surgery. That specific periodontist will do better somewhere else where they are appreciated and respected professionally.

 

[Shim-stock]

I am not naive at all. I have previously practiced dentistry and I know very well that when you do good dentistry and maintain your standards very high, money will follow. I also like building a relationship with my patients and not seeing them like walking bags of money. I treat my patients just as I would want my dentist to treat me and patients appreciate that. I never complain about long working hours and I am available whenever necessary. That’s how I have always been professionally.
I did not want to work for DSOs for many reasons, some of which were listed above. Here is how I see dentistry and how I currently practice (in private practice): I do all my restorative under rubber dam isolation unless the patient has some situations where I have to use DryShield (exacerbated asthma/extreme odontophobia/breathing problems/claustrophobia). I use brushes for my direct restorations and model them cusp by cusp until I am perfectly happy with the result. I don’t like “pancake dentistry”. I am allowed to order whatever brand of composites, modeling resin, finishing and polishing kits, rubber dam clamps etc. Try negociating with a DSO to buy a good quality rubber dam for you. They will laugh to your face. I do surgical extractions, 3rd molar extractions, bone grafts, implants and I am allowed to chose what I want to refer and what I want to do and also what biomaterials to use. I do prosthodontics too and emergency care. There are procedures I don’t like doing and nobody ever tried to force me to do any. I was very clear during the interview regarding my expectations. Never mentioned anything about money, just focused on what can help me deliver excellent dental care (CBCT, intraoral scanner, RD as a must, high quality materials and dental lab etc).
I remember one interview with a DSO. In my first minute of discussion I told them I don’t do pediatric dentistry and the interviewer told me I am not a good fit and abruptly ended the zoom meeting 🤣. So rude! I could not work with people who act like that. Another DSO told me they need to keep their specialists busy and will not allow me to do even simple extractions, let alone implants. The best way to demotivate a person is to set up barriers for them.
I firmly believe that as an employer when you treat your employees with respect, support them to perform at the best of their abilities, they will go above and beyond to make your practice more productive. I am very well aware dentistry is a business but I want to be able to go to sleep at night knowing that I did not fail my patients’ trust, that I did something good. My boss (who is a person I look up to professionally) sees that I care and I am not superficial and production oriented and I was told this is a very good quality that I have.
Working with everything you need to provide good care makes you faster, which ultimately makes you more productive financially.

I totally agree! One point I want to emphasis, as a GP you must learn how to do extractions and implants; this is no longer a specialty service; in residency there is lots of crap (literature review and lectures); in real life you have to take it easy first and have some supervision and then it is going to be a piece of cake; in fact, after placing my 10th implant, it became imprinted in my muscle memory to the point that it does not take me more that 30 minutes to place an implant and close. However, it is all about case selection; if you feel there will complications or the patient health is not as you like it to be then by all means refer! this is where our training comes in handy to GP. Those DSO who do not allow the GP to do extractions and implants are a HUGE SCAM; it is an insurance game not health care; they basically treat the insurance not the human being. I highly encourage all GPs to stay away from these DSOs

 

[2TH MVR]

I am not naive at all. I have previously practiced dentistry and I know very well that when you do good dentistry and maintain your standards very high, money will follow. I also like building a relationship with my patients and not seeing them like walking bags of money. I treat my patients just as I would want my dentist to treat me and patients appreciate that. I never complain about long working hours and I am available whenever necessary. That’s how I have always been professionally.
I did not want to work for DSOs for many reasons, some of which were listed above. Here is how I see dentistry and how I currently practice (in private practice): I do all my restorative under rubber dam isolation unless the patient has some situations where I have to use DryShield (exacerbated asthma/extreme odontophobia/breathing problems/claustrophobia). I use brushes for my direct restorations and model them cusp by cusp until I am perfectly happy with the result. I don’t like “pancake dentistry”. I am allowed to order whatever brand of composites, modeling resin, finishing and polishing kits, rubber dam clamps etc. Try negociating with a DSO to buy a good quality rubber dam for you. They will laugh to your face. I do surgical extractions, 3rd molar extractions, bone grafts, implants and I am allowed to chose what I want to refer and what I want to do and also what biomaterials to use. I do prosthodontics too and emergency care. There are procedures I don’t like doing and nobody ever tried to force me to do any. I was very clear during the interview regarding my expectations. Never mentioned anything about money, just focused on what can help me deliver excellent dental care (CBCT, intraoral scanner, RD as a must, high quality materials and dental lab etc).
I remember one interview with a DSO. In my first minute of discussion I told them I don’t do pediatric dentistry and the interviewer told me I am not a good fit and abruptly ended the zoom meeting 🤣. So rude! I could not work with people who act like that. Another DSO told me they need to keep their specialists busy and will not allow me to do even simple extractions, let alone implants. The best way to demotivate a person is to set up barriers for them.
I firmly believe that as an employer when you treat your employees with respect, support them to perform at the best of their abilities, they will go above and beyond to make your practice more productive. I am very well aware dentistry is a business but I want to be able to go to sleep at night knowing that I did not fail my patients’ trust, that I did something good. My boss (who is a person I look up to professionally) sees that I care and I am not superficial and production oriented and I was told this is a very good quality that I have.
Working with everything you need to provide good care makes you faster, which ultimately makes you more productive financially.

You sound like a good person. Yes. There are many, (probably all lol) terrible DSOs out there. They unfortunately serve a purpose or they would not exist. I personally believe that the growth of the DSOs is what is wrong with dentistry today.

I've posted previously that if I was a new grad or a rookie dentist .... I would never work at a DSO as a LONGTERM situation. DSOs seem to attract the soon to be retired dentists, dentists who had trouble in private practice, or those new grads looking to make some money.

The unicorn situation is to find that ideal private practice with a senior mentor. But this is so tough. Usually alot of these "ideal" practices are not busy enough to employ a new young dentist. Most likely because this practice was not ran as a business. Or the older dentist just let things (lack of production) decline.

Work with a quality private practice and learn the BUSINESS for a couple of years.. Find an ideal area where there are few Corps (tough). Have a private office and treat patients HOW YOU WANT TO TREAT THEM. Make sure you make enough money to pay the bills and most importantly .... pay YOU.

 

[charlestweed]

You're being naive. Production is a reality whether a DSO or private practice. A dental practice exists to make a profit so you can pay your bills. There was a time when just being a dentist was good enough financially. With this new economy, marketing, online e-commerce, Corps, entitlement issues ...... practicing dentistry is a whole lot harder.

I agree with you 100%. A practice can’t exist if it fails to produce and fails to make profit. It’s the profit that helps motivate me to work harder to keep my patients happy. Happy patients = more word of mouth referrals = more profit. Unhappy patients = patient complaints, stress, and potential malpractice law suits = loss of patients = decline in production. I’d feel very depressed if my practice couldn’t generate a net positive income to support my family despite all the hard work, efforts, and a lot of sleepless nights, that I put into it. It’d be a waste of time and money to spend 4 years in dental school….and a couple of hundred grands to set up an office. It’d be better just to work for someone else than to own a practice. And that’s what a lot of failed practice owners did….they sold their failed practices…and they came to work for the corp offices. The success (financial success) of my practice is what makes me happy to show up for work every day. The success of my practice is the reason why I come to this forum to write good things about this awesome profession.

When you are an owner, you are the last person who gets paid…..you have to pay your staff and rent and all other fixed expenses first. You are the first one to show up and the last one to leave the office, especially at the beginning when your new office doesn’t generate enough income to hire enough employees.

I don’t hate the DSO that I work for. I want my company to be successful so I can keep my job and earn my bonuses. If my boss struggles and can’t afford to pay me, I’d lose my job.

 

[charlestweed]

I think it’s a good idea for the new grads to work at a busy DSO office. They will learn a lot more than working at a slow private practice. The busy schedule at a DSO forces you learn to do things quickly and efficiently. You learn to avoid being behind (and patient complaints) and manage the chair time more effectively. You learn how the the corps keep their overhead very low. You learn how to deal with slow inexperienced assistants. You learn a lot when you face difficulties (busy schedule, inexperience assistants, limited supplies etc). When you are ready to open your own practice, you can apply what you had learned to your new practice. Since corps don’t have very strict non-compete clause, you can open your own office nearby and continue to work part time for the corp to supplement your income. That’s what many of my GP and specialist friends and I did. The stable income flow from our part time jobs at the corps helped finance our practices that the beginning when we didn’t have a lot of patients. When you have your own practice, you can do anything you want…..you can do things that the corp doesn’t allow you to do.

 

[Shim-stock]

I agree with you 100%. A practice can’t exist if it fails to produce and fails to make profit. It’s the profit that helps motivate me to work harder to keep my patients happy. Happy patients = more word of mouth referrals = more profit. Unhappy patients = patient complaints, stress, and potential malpractice law suits = loss of patients = decline in production. I’d feel very depressed if my practice couldn’t generate a net positive income to support my family despite all the hard work, efforts, and a lot of sleepless nights, that I put into it. It’d be a waste of time and money to spend 4 years in dental school….and a couple of hundred grands to set up an office. It’d be better just to work for someone else than to own a practice. And that’s what a lot of failed practice owners did….they sold their failed practices…and they came to work for the corp offices. The success (financial success) of my practice is what makes me happy to show up for work every day. The success of my practice is the reason why I come to this forum to write good things about this awesome profession.

When you are an owner, you are the last person who gets paid…..you have to pay your staff and rent and all other fixed expenses first. You are the first one to show up and the last one to leave the office, especially at the beginning when your new office doesn’t generate enough income to hire enough employees.

I don’t hate the DSO that I work for. I want my company to be successful so I can keep my job and earn my bonuses. If my boss struggles and can’t afford to pay me, I’d lose my job.

You sound like a good person. Yes. There are many, (probably all lol) terrible DSOs out there. They unfortunately serve a purpose or they would not exist. I personally believe that the growth of the DSOs is what is wrong with dentistry today.

I've posted previously that if I was a new grad or a rookie dentist .... I would never work at a DSO as a LONGTERM situation. DSOs seem to attract the soon to be retired dentists, dentists who had trouble in private practice, or those new grads looking to make some money.

The unicorn situation is to find that ideal private practice with a senior mentor. But this is so tough. Usually alot of these "ideal" practices are not busy enough to employ a new young dentist. Most likely because this practice was not ran as a business. Or the older dentist just let things (lack of production) decline.

Work with a quality private practice and learn the BUSINESS for a couple of years.. Find an ideal area where there are few Corps (tough). Have a private office and treat patients HOW YOU WANT TO TREAT THEM. Make sure you make enough money to pay the bills and most importantly .... pay YOU.

Alright so you both make me feel that is OK to abuse each other as if we are in a jungle!!! as emma-m said "do good dentistry and maintain your standards very high, money will follow" as dentists we are doing what the patient needs to make money for our time not the other way around. Looks like you both are very not good places to work with LOL. As ortho you rely on referrals so keep up that attitude and I promise you will be out of business in no time and Yes we treat people not their money do good dentistry and explain findings and treatment options well to your patient and you be doing well financially

 

[Shim-stock]

I think it’s a good idea for the new grads to work at a busy DSO office. They will learn a lot more than working at a slow private practice. Their busy schedule at a DSO forces you learn to do things quickly and efficiently. You learn to avoid being behind (and patient complaints) and manage the chair time more effectively. You learn how the the corps keep their overhead very low. You learn how to deal with slow inexperienced assistants. You learn a lot when you face difficulties (busy schedule, inexperience assistants, limited supplies etc). When you are ready to open your own practice, you can apply what you had learned to your new practice. Since corps don’t have very strict non-compete clause, you can open your own office nearby and continue to work part time for the corp to supplement your income. That’s what many of my GP and specialist friends and I did. The stable income flow from our part time jobs at the corps helped finance our practices that the beginning when we didn’t have a lot of patients. When you have your own practice, you can do anything want…..you can do things that the corp doesn’t allow you to do.

I like this posting! I totally agree with it!

 

[charlestweed]

Alright so you both make me feel that is OK to abuse each other as if we are in a jungle!!!

I’ve never said that. For an associateship to last there has to be a mutual respect from both parties. If an associate wants his boss (and the boss’staff) to respect him, he must also respect the boss and the staff. If you feel you are abused, you can always leave. The good thing about dentistry is there are plenty of associate jobs available.

Looks like you both are very not good places to work with LOL.

I don't hire any associate. Two of my F/T assistants have stayed with me for 15+ years. Both of them were worried when I mentioned that I wanted to retire in 5-10 years. I currently work part time as an associate ortho at a DSO to supplement my income; therefore, I know how to treat my own employees and keep them happy.

As ortho you rely on referrals so keep up that attitude and I promise you will be out of business in no time.

All of my referring GPs are very understanding people because they are business owners like me.

Yes we treat people not their money do good dentistry and explain findings and treatment options well to your patient and you be doing well financially

We treat people and we should be compensated for our work and efforts. The boss has to get paid in order for him to pay us. Can’t treat the patients for free. Patients tend to appreciate the value of our work more when they pay for the treatment. I guess you can never make people happy. When you charge too much or worry about getting paid, people call you greedy. But when you charge patients low fees, your colleagues say you cheapen our profession.

The point of all of my posts here is you should never make a generalized statement that all DSO offices and all owner dentists are evil and abusive. If you have such opinion in your head, you will miss out a lot of good job opportunities. One dentist may hate the job at the office he works for but another dentist may love the job at this same office. Not all dentists are created equal. A slow associate dentist A may think it’s abusive to give him too many patients. A fast and experience dentist B may think, he doesn’t have enough patients to keep himself busy for the same amount of patients that the slow dentist A has. As I said earlier, you will never be 100% happy when you work for someone else.

You mentioned about the MDs who are better treated by colleagues than us, dentists. I have a lot of friends and cousins who are MDs. My younger brother is a GI doc. It’s not as rosy as you might think. A few of them couldn’t stand their jobs and had to leave their profession. I know an anesthesiologist who switched to pain management because he hated his work schedule and the politics at the hospital. Another physician (he married to my cousin) switched to doing IT work for the hospital.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

MDs; in fact, their salaries are continuously increasing

You sure about this?

keep up that attitude and I promise you will be out of business in no time

They both ran extremely successful businesses. One of them still does. So I doubt your prediction here.

You mentioned about the MDs who are better treated by colleagues than us, dentists. I have a lot of friends and cousins who are MDs. My younger brother is a GI doc. It’s not as rosy as you might think.

This is true. I work with MDs/DOs on a daily basis who are trained in many different specialties. It definitely is not as rosy as people claim it to be...especially by people who don't know much, if at all, about this side of health care.

 

[Shim-stock]

You sure about this?

They both ran extremely successful businesses. One of them still does. So I doubt your prediction here.

This is true. I work with MDs/DOs on a daily basis who are trained in many different specialties. It definitely is not as rosy as people claim it to be...especially by people who don't know much, if at all, about this side of health care.

Chief's pineapple, are you done! both my parents and 2 brothers of mine are MDs; just FYI! When you join a practice as an MD you often get the chance to partner in few years and so your income increases further more. vs good proportion of DSOs and dental clinics which keep flipping associates to keep the pay as low as possible and at the same time ask the associate to work as hard as possible.

 

[charlestweed]

The corp office’s manager has just approached me a few minutes ago to ask me if she can close the 23rd of this month. It’s 2 days before Xmas. A lot of people have cancelled their appointments. On that day, we will only have 20+ patients on the appt book, instead of the usual 60-70 patients. This means that I will lose a full day pay and the manager was afraid that I may get mad. I am pretty sure if I said no, the corp manager wouId keep that day opened for me. But don’t think it’s fair for them to pay me a full day salary with only 1/3 of the number of patients on the book. So I told her that it's ok to close the Dec 23rd day. My son has just came home from college and I'd like to spend more time with him. I’ve been with this same corp office for more than 20 years……ever since I finished my ortho training in 2001. I had also worked for 3 other companies but I like this one the most.

 

[Shim-stock]

Hearing success stories and seeing dentists doing well warm my heart! I hope all of us do very well! my goal from this post is to help expose the schemes that some DSOs and owners use to enslave the GPs. My all due respect to you and your family.

 

[Roto Picante]

@shimstock, just wait until you have a bitter, angry employee like yourself. You just recently started posting and you have already managed to make an ass of yourself. We get that you are unhappy with your previous employment. Employment is a 2 way agreement, maybe the problems were 2 sided here? With the attitude you've exhibited here, even the best of employers may have struggled with you.

 

[Shim-stock]

@shimstock, just wait until you have a bitter, angry employee like yourself. You just recently started posting and you have already managed to make an ass of yourself. We get that you are unhappy with your previous employment. Employment is a 2 way agreement, maybe the problems were 2 sided here? With the attitude you've exhibited here, even the best of employers may have struggled with you.

Thank you Roto Picante for calling me an ass; this reflects how polite and nice you are! I am trying to bring up to the community my (and other GPs') suffering with ass employers who are all about sucking the blood of the new graduates and destroying them as much as possible in the name of running successful business. I personally know a dentist who committed suicide because of this and so I am OK with being an ass to ass off the real asses

 

[2TH MVR]

Alright so you both make me feel that is OK to abuse each other as if we are in a jungle!!! as emma-m said "do good dentistry and maintain your standards very high, money will follow" as dentists we are doing what the patient needs to make money for our time not the other way around. Looks like you both are very not good places to work with LOL. As ortho you rely on referrals so keep up that attitude and I promise you will be out of business in no time and Yes we treat people not their money do good dentistry and explain findings and treatment options well to your patient and you be doing well financially

Dude. I love it. New member coming on here to spout off and insult members who have been here a long time. You're making plenty of friends here buddy. Keep it up. Frankly. You should go over to Dental Town. They actually may listen to your crap. lol.

We all agree that patients should be individually diagnosed and treated to the highest tx level without regards to production goals. That means that if a patient requires advanced SPECIALTY care .... their tx would be best treated by a specialist. Sure. A DSO makes more on these SPECIALTY procedures if a specialist performs them. They also improve their chances that the procedure will be done RIGHT the 1ST time. The DSO I work for tried using GPs to place simple implants. IT FAILED. The DSO I work for only allows ORTHODONTISTS to do ortho tx. The DSO periodontist had to fix most of the GP placed implants. Trust me. He was pissed. No specialist likes to fix something done by a GP.

If you do not like DSOs (I don't either) or employer GPs ..... then open your own private practice and stop complaining.

 

[Shim-stock]

Dude. I love it. New member coming on here to spout off and insult members who have been here a long time. You're making plenty of friends here buddy. Keep it up. Frankly. You should go over to Dental Town. They actually may listen to your crap. lol.

We all agree that patients should be individually diagnosed and treated to the highest tx level without regards to production goals. That means that if a patient requires advanced SPECIALTY care .... their tx would be best treated by a specialist. Sure. A DSO makes more on these SPECIALTY procedures if a specialist performs them. They also improve their chances that the procedure will be done RIGHT the 1ST time. The DSO I work for tried using GPs to place simple implants. IT FAILED. The DSO I work for only allows ORTHODONTISTS to do ortho tx. The DSO periodontist had to fix most of the GP placed implants. Trust me. He was pissed. No specialist likes to fix something done by a GP.

If you do not like DSOs (I don't either) or employer GPs ..... then open your own private practice and stop complaining.

Please do not take things personal! as your "dude" I want to say this: I agree that a GP without any experience in placing implants should have enough training and supervision until he is good enough to be by himself. We definitely do not want anyone to experiment on patients. My friend from dental school works for Aspen dental, he places implants every week; he did not do GPR; he was trained by the owner through Aspen training programs. He placed so far more than what I will be placing in my entire residency since a big proportion of my training so far is literature review (most of it is nonsense) and classes (most of it is already covered in dental school). He will be soon a partner in the office. This is a bright example of how it should be! Many GPs I met place implants and have an excellent log of cases to prove to anyone that they can do it. In fact another friend of mine from dental school hired a periodontist via a training program (I believe via the Maxicourse) to come and teach him how to place implants and now he does cases almost every week. I also have seen implant cases done by periodontists that was a COMPLETE FALIURE BY ALL MEANS; one of these cases, patient came with the implant and the crown in her hand and her sinus was open "literally sneezed out her implant"; another case, the implant came out with the impression; another case 2 implants are almost kissing each other (not restorable), another case, the implant was less than 1 mm close to adjacent tooth and both implant and tooth got loose "go perio I guess LOL"! Nowadays, guided surgery is very reliable, convenient and in fact quick way to do implants (even sinus lifts) based on well calculated plan. In my GPR, we did many guided implants including all on 4 using the BlueSkyBio and it was fantastic; good implant system like Straumann or Nobel, good bone grafting material and good technique and it should be no problem for GPs to do implants

 

[PerioDont]

Please do not take things personal! as your "dude" I want to say this: I agree that a GP without any experience in placing implants should have enough training and supervision until he is good enough to be by himself. We definitely do not want anyone to experiment on patients. My friend from dental school works for Aspen dental, he places implants every week; he did not do GPR; he was trained by the owner through Aspen training programs. He placed so far more than what I will be placing in my entire residency since a big proportion of my training so far is literature review (most of it is nonsense) and classes (most of it is already covered in dental school). He will be soon a partner in the office. This is a bright example of how it should be! Many GPs I met place implants and have an excellent log of cases to prove to anyone that they can do it. In fact another friend of mine from dental school hired a periodontist via a training program (I believe via the Maxicourse) to come and teach him how to place implants and now he does cases almost every week. I also have seen implant cases done by periodontists that was a COMPLETE FALIURE BY ALL MEANS; one of these cases, patient came with the implant and the crown in her hand and her sinus was open "literally sneezed out her implant"; another case, the implant came out with the impression; another case 2 implants are almost kissing each other (not restorable), another case, the implant was less than 1 mm close to adjacent tooth and both implant and tooth got loose "go perio I guess LOL"! Nowadays, guided surgery is very reliable, convenient and in fact quick way to do implants (even sinus lifts) based on well calculated plan. In my GPR, we did many guided implants including all on 4 using the BlueSkyBio and it was fantastic; good implant system like Straumann or Nobel, good bone grafting material and good technique and it should be no problem for GPs to do implants

Why are you doing the residency in that case? Why not just do the Aspen training program instead of the 'nonsense' taught in your program?

The liability and likelihood of a case gone south with a specialist is significantly less than done by a GP. Yes some select GPs could do specialty work better than specialists. But the chances are very likely that the average specialist is much better at doing specialty procedures than the average GP.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

When you join a practice as an MD you often get the chance to partner in few years and so your income increases further more.

Oh, decreasing reimbursements and inflation are just figments of my imagination. My mistake.

Trolls are just going to troll.

 

[Shim-stock]

Oh, decreasing reimbursements and inflation are just figments of my imagination. My mistake.

Trolls are just going to troll.

Oh, it is affecting you as well in a worse way; looks like you are the one who is looking for attention here; I have seen patients living with broken teeth for several years without any problem; I have not seen patients with MI ignoring it and living OK with it.

 

[Shim-stock]

Why are you doing the residency in that case? Why not just do the Aspen training program instead of the 'nonsense' taught in your program?

The liability and likelihood of a case gone south with a specialist is significantly less than done by a GP. Yes some select GPs could do specialty work better than specialists. But the chances are very likely that the average specialist is much better at doing specialty procedures than the average GP.

Why? none of your business! LOL! I did not join perio to learn implants; I learned implants in my GPR. If a case goes south on a GP he refers it to a specialist; if GP uses surgical guides, chances of having big complications is close to zero.

 

[Shim-stock]

I will finish my contribution to this link by emphasizing the important role of GPs in dental health care; I highly encourage GPs to work together to prevent any DSO or owner from abusing them! If no GP accepts sh***ty jobs, those places that offer those jobs will have to change their mind or they will be out of business in no time without a GP onboard. I have refused many sh***ty jobs and I never had a problem finding another job in few days after I left. Always negotiate your contract; always look for good CEs especially hands-on courses to learn and expand your skills and never hesitate to refer difficult cases to specialists; case selection is a key; give the high risk cases to your specialist, they are there to help you but not to force you to refer all cases to them so that you end up doing prophy; one DSO specifically does that and have licensed fully trained DDS/DMD doctors do prophy so that hygiene can do SRPs. When I was placed in that situation, I never accepted doing a prophy no matter what was the pressure. For me, I had to stay around my family and my school since I know I want to do perio but there were so many job openings out there who are looking for doctors, pay them will and respect their importance in the field

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

Oh, it is affecting you as well in a worse way

No it's not. I get yearly pay raises, like everyone in my field across all corporate chains of hospitals, unlike you doctorate-degree holders. Benefits of being a lesser peon, I suppose. I do have to park farther away, though.

And broken teeth is not at all comparable to an MI. Quit being obtuse.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

Ah so you are the arrogant oral surgeon who works for the navy, makes less than 250k a year and get few extra cents in yearly pay raises; good for you Mr. arrogant. One of my brothers is an ENT, I think that is enough for me to wake you up from your "hyperarrogance" shock

You have trouble reading, don't you? I work for corporate hospitals (so not the Navy) and I don't hold a doctorate (so not an OMFS). But you seem to be projecting...

 

[2TH MVR]

You have trouble reading, don't you? I work for corporate hospitals (so not the Navy) and I don't hold a doctorate (so not an OMFS). But you seem to be TROLLING..

Here. I fixed it for you.

 

[gyngyn]

In the interest of transparency, the OP was banned for multiple violations of ToS.
These included repeated use of vulgar language and name calling.
Some of these posts have been deleted.