How to balance research and 4th year electives?

[VCorp]

I'm currently half way through my 3rd year, with just IM and surgery left till I'm done. At the moment, if all things go well I'll be done on Halloween day and hope to take CK by Thanksgiving or December 1st, latest. Our school makes us take 26 weeks of electives which comes out to 6.5 months of electives. I'll try to push for 7 months, making me do 7 electives.

My goal is to do 7 GS electives in top University programs, which I've listed below. Just listed them, in no order of preference. The problem I'm having is, I'm trying to get a research spot at GA-Tech. Curious as to how I can do BOTH research and do my electives at these locations.

1. Emory
2. University of Chicago
3. Vanderbilt
4. University of Florida
5. Atlanta Medical Center = I'm an IMG so figured I should have a community program in here as a backup
6. NIH - Neurology/Neuroscience Research
7. Louisville or Mayo

I have the time off so just want to see how I can incorporate doing my electives at good locations, getting stellar LORs, while still being able to do the research. Not really willing to sacrifice either of them. Any suggestions is greatly appreciated it.

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[caffeinemia]

Take this however you choose...

In my frank opinion and in light of the information you have provided, I think you approaching this in the wrong way and that it has a high probability of leading to complete disaster.

1) I do not know what your rotations are like where you go to school, but I can say that rotations at these institutions will be rough. 70-80hrs a week with the expectation to read and prepare before hand. You may down play self care, but if you don't tend to that, it will reflect in your appearance, attitude, performance. People will notice. I highly doubt you will be able to focus on kicking ass on your rotation while doing research in any capacity.

2) I participated in basic science research during a year off. I worked my ass off for a year just to get the data and then the manuscript + revisions took another year to complete. It's unlikely to happen in six months, and even less likely to happen if you are going off on rotations, filling out ERAS, going out on interviews. If you were to do a clinical project for 6months, it might be feasible. That said, I also hustled hard for clinical research papers, and the process for that can be highly variable, taking anywhere from weeks to many many many months. At best, you can realistically expect an abstract/poster-presentation and hope for a clinical paper.

3) Furthermore, unless you are some super star FMG, the fact that you only have one "backup" and chose some academic powerhouses also hints towards delusions of grandeur. In terms of categorical surgery spots, being an FMG is already a strike against you. Then you are going to compete against a broad range of US seniors at huge programs where there is limited space and little attention. Have you realistically considered making a stronger impression by investing more time at a few smaller institutions and showing them that you are worth their consideration and endorsement? A strong letter from a less prominent surgeon is still worth many times more than a form letter from a chairman's secretary.

If you don't believe me, I went to 20+ interviews this year from a broad spectrum of categorical surgery programs (regionally as well as community vs academic), the few FMGs I met were those who had done a prelim year at that institution or had some ridiculous CV rife with pubs and some serious surgeons going to bat for them. The fact that you are still contemplating research and getting LORs does not lend confidence that you already have this on your CV. Consider that their prelim year was the enormous investment/audition that they were doing.

 

[ram006]

I agree with the above. Very unlikely you'll be able to do both well. Have you considered taking a year off and then choosing a more realistic set of places to rotate? Your goal at this point should be to get in to A residency position, not shoot for the stars. One formula I've seen work with some of our prelims is they found a program with a history of taking FMGs, did a dedicated year of research and then rocked a prelim year (or two in one case). I've got two buddies who ended up in Ortho and Urology with this approach. Granted, they both had ridiculous step scores, an insane amount of pubs and were incredibly hard workers...

I realize it's probably frustrating to hear these things, but (as now three people that have been through the process have mentioned) you're not helping yourself by taking such an unconventional approach... at all.

There are a variety of factors that play in to why FMGs are not given the same priority, and you should acknowledge(to yourself at least) that it's an uphill battle to land at even a community program. You mentioned Atlanta. I don't know much about that program or if it even should be called a "back-up", but I do know Atlanta is a decent place to live so it may be a back up for many US grads.

As I alluded to above, not all FMGs are created equal. There's a big difference between a US born FMG that failed to meet the requirements to gain acceptance in to medical school in the states and someone who escaped a war torn country and poverty to come to America while also crushing their step exams. It's not always fair, but it's the truth.

The only thing rotating while trying to conduct research will do is ensure you can do neither to the best of your ability. As caffeinemia mentioned, turning out quality research is time consuming. There's a reason researchers are always looking for people to do the leg work. With your current plan, if a project even gets done, you're basically asking them to put your name on a paper with minimal contribution/effort. No respectable researcher will go for that. I started my research year in July and did countless hours of data acquisition and entry before I passed it over to the statistician in early January. Only today, March 24th, did I submit a manuscript to my PI for revisions. I'm sure the entire document will come back red and require another week or two to touch up. That's one project. I haven't even started the manuscript for my other...

You have a very small margin for error. If you don't shine on your rotations it'll be hard to get letters, much less match at that program.

 

[VCorp]

I agree with the above. Very unlikely you'll be able to do both well. Have you considered taking a year off and then choosing a more realistic set of places to rotate? Your goal at this point should be to get in to A residency position, not shoot for the stars. One formula I've seen work with some of our prelims is they found a program with a history of taking FMGs, did a dedicated year of research and then rocked a prelim year (or two in one case). I've got two buddies who ended up in Ortho and Urology with this approach. Granted, they both had ridiculous step scores, an insane amount of pubs and were incredibly hard workers...

I realize it's probably frustrating to hear these things, but (as now three people that have been through the process have mentioned) you're not helping yourself by taking such an unconventional approach... at all.

There are a variety of factors that play in to why FMGs are not given the same priority, and you should acknowledge(to yourself at least) that it's an uphill battle to land at even a community program. You mentioned Atlanta. I don't know much about that program or if it even should be called a "back-up", but I do know Atlanta is a decent place to live so it may be a back up for many US grads.

As I alluded to above, not all FMGs are created equal. There's a big difference between a US born FMG that failed to meet the requirements to gain acceptance in to medical school in the states and someone who escaped a war torn country and poverty to come to America while also crushing their step exams. It's not always fair, but it's the truth.

The only thing rotating while trying to conduct research will do is ensure you can do neither to the best of your ability. As caffeinemia mentioned, turning out quality research is time consuming. There's a reason researchers are always looking for people to do the leg work. With your current plan, if a project even gets done, you're basically asking them to put your name on a paper with minimal contribution/effort. No respectable researcher will go for that. I started my research year in July and did countless hours of data acquisition and entry before I passed it over to the statistician in early January. Only today, March 24th, did I submit a manuscript to my PI for revisions. I'm sure the entire document will come back red and require another week or two to touch up. That's one project. I haven't even started the manuscript for my other...

You have a very small margin for error. If you don't shine on your rotations it'll be hard to get letters, much less match at that program.

Thank you for the informative responses. Same goes to southernIM.

Reading these responses just made me extremely disappointed. Feel like wanting to do well in life, is costing me, for the shortcuts which I took in my early 20s. I guess wanting to end up at a good academic program is going to be tough. I had already planned on taking a year off since the way my schedule ended, it would've worked out perfectly fine. However, I was sent home for some issues and it's eating into my year-off time.

I'm not sure what I should do now. Feel like I can 1. Go into those "powerhouse" institutions and grind my way through and meet the demands and do my absolute best. All without have any type of research publication OR 2. Go into places that're less demanding and do research simultaneously and try to get a publication under my belt.

I can already feel a headache coming in from this.

 

[ram006]

You sort of glossed over a potentially big detail. You don't have to go in to detail, but being "sent home" could be a pretty big red flag...

Also I'll second southernIM. Don't make the mistake of thinking residents/students at community programs don't work as hard. With fewer residents and no fellows it can be quite the opposite.

As someone who also has made some mistakes academically, I feel I should share one thing with you. Very few people actually care about why x,y or z happened, why you're an FMG, or in my case why your step 1 score sucks. They'll empathize or whatever, but if it comes down to you and someone with better qualifications don't expect it to be you. Medicine in general is incredibly competitive. That's the career you chose.

If being a surgeon is what you want you have to decide how much you're willing to put yourself through but you mentioned in your post you took shortcuts in the past and it didn't work out. Don't make the same mistake again. There are no easy options for you.

Find a one year research fellowship somewhere that takes FMGs and murder every test you take for the rest of your life. Simple plan, very difficult to execute. Good luck, boss.

 

[VCorp]

You sort of glossed over a potentially big detail. You don't have to go in to detail, but being "sent home" could be a pretty big red flag...

Also I'll second southernIM. Don't make the mistake of thinking residents/students at community programs don't work as hard. With fewer residents and no fellows it can be quite the opposite.

As someone who also has made some mistakes academically, I feel I should share one thing with you. Very few people actually care about why x,y or z happened, why you're an FMG, or in my case why your step 1 score sucks. They'll empathize or whatever, but if it comes down to you and someone with better qualifications don't expect it to be you. Medicine in general is incredibly competitive. That's the career you chose.

If being a surgeon is what you want you have to decide how much you're willing to put yourself through but you mentioned in your post you took shortcuts in the past and it didn't work out. Don't make the same mistake again. There are no easy options for you.

Find a one year research fellowship somewhere that takes FMGs and murder every test you take for the rest of your life. Simple plan, very difficult to execute. Good luck, boss.

Thanks a lot fellas. I greatly appreciate it. southernIM the reason I chose those places were because they accept FMG visiting students. My offensive strategy was to do exceptionally well at those places and get a strong LOR from the program director. I was thinking how many academic GS spots are there across the US? A lot, but not as many as community GS spots. I figured most of the PDs from academic places probably know each other from conferences and other meetings.

Getting letters from one academic institution and applying broadly would give me the insurance I'd need, since the PDs can vouch for me, and if my theory of academic PDs knowing each other - it should be ok. Typed this up on the iPhone so I hope it makes sense what I said...lol.