How to retry after rejection letters

[Jessp]

Greetings, I'm reading the different threads, trying to determine my personal chances as well and looking for those statements that confirm my fears: the GRE and research experience really are determining factors when looking to get into a PHD program. I realize that's simplistic, but out of the two programs I applied to, I have one left that I'm waiting for. My first choice school, sent a rejection e-mail right away, which makes me think that it was the GRE. I'll try to be more concise, here. Forgive me, I'm in the throws of "What do I do now?"

I have a BS in Psych (3.5 GPA), MA in MHCounseling '06 (GPA 4.0); have been in the field since then and came to the conclusion over the past 2-3 years that it makes sense to go back to school for the research portion as that is what I'm really lacking, however in my current work it's become obvious that it's what I'm interested in: research-informed practice. I believe I am extremely motivated for the necessary work that would be ahead of me and I am very passionate about the population I want to study.
I sent applications to two programs that have professors studying what I'm interested in and even the particular Dx I'm interested in. I picked the schools not only for their curriculum, what the profs are studying, but also for their location: what were the assets in the area and possible collaboration/ internship sites. I did not want to pick schools that did not have work in my AOI and I did not pick "safety schools". I'm 34, and frankly am not applying for the letters, I'm applying for the work and where that puts me in the field, with the possibilities the work affords me. When applying, I felt that my work experience, experience with my population of interest, extra curricular activities, as well as what I had done in addition to my work were quite competitive, everything on my application seemed competitive, but it feels like these two factors alone are shutting me down.


I knew from the beginning that I was going to struggle in two areas: the GRE and research experience. While I have a master's I do not have anything published and I do not have a CV full of projects with my name somewhere amongst the researchers. My master's was about getting out there and practicing, and that's what I've done for the last 10 years. My GRE is sub-par and despite months of prepwork and even a private tutor, I am afraid to say that will never be in the 90th percentile. I know that may read like, "Well, if you aren't willing to do the work to get that score up there, then you don't deserve the PHD."

While I don't know exactly why the first school could not offer me a slot other than, "we've received a record number of qualified applicants", I did ask for a look at my file. I'm guessing by reading other posts that I can ask again for a "file review", but wonder if that's for students who have already been established. I'm not sure that applicants' files stick around after rejection.

Here's my question: What would you recommend, to someone who is practicing, to do in order to boost the research experience if you think this indeed may be a giant reason for the rejection?
I can surmise all of the what-ifs intrinsic in the application process, but after reading all of the threads and articles when researching whether or not to apply in the first place, I felt like I had my head and heart in the right schools; not too many schools with varying, willy-nilly interests, just two very particular schools with a very particular interest. Aware of work ahead of me and the personal sacrifice etc.
I know this is a bit scattered, and I know I didn't lay out every aspect of my application for scrutiny but I do think this gets at least a bit of the point across.

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[Jessp]

You need to have solid research experience to get into Ph.D. (and reputable Psy.D.) programs. There's no way around this. I really think the chances are about zero otherwise. You didn't mention if you were at zero or if you had some research experience. If you are at zero, you are looking at taking a couple of years to amass the needed experience. There are two routes you can take: 1) apply for jobs as a research assistant/coordinator or 2) try to find a local lab that will allow you to volunteer. I think option 1 is the best route. You may even have an edge for paid research assistant gigs since you have a Master's. You didn't say how low your GREs are. If the program has a hard cutoff and you're below that, I'm don't think there's much to be done but to try to raise your score. If your score is just on the lower end of their accepted range, having stellar research experience and fit can ameliorate this somewhat. The other problem is that even with research experience, I would not expect even the most competitive student to be successful if they only applied to 2 schools. Most students typically average applying to 12-16 programs.

OK, great. This is a big help. Thanks. The 12-15 schools blows my mind, and I guess that's what being out of academics for 10 years gets me.

 

[futureapppsy2]

One of the reasons that schools look for research experience is that they want to have some degree of confidence that you can make it through the thesis and dissertation processes. Not having any research experience at all would likely make those rather difficult, I think, as there's a lot of practical and logistical issues involved in actually conceptualizing and pulling off a decent study that aren't covered in a methods class alone.

Also, it's not clear to me why you want a doctorate--you mention "research-informed practice," but you should already be doing that, honestly. Do you want to conduct your own research? Expand your scope of practice? Work as faculty? Be clear is to why you want to go back for a doctorate in your SOP and tie that in how the program can help you achieve that.

 

[Spydra]

I guess my question would be how can you be sure you want to do research if you don't have research experience or perhaps all of your experience is 10+ years old? I agree that it would be unlikely for a program to accept someone with no experience or very old experience, but a PhD is about research and there is no way around that. At this point in the game you should be trying to gain research experience not just to boost your applications so programs will take you seriously, but also to determine for yourself if its really something you want to do almost exclusively for 5+ years and then afterward in your career.

How do you get that experience? As others have suggested you can apply for jobs as a research assistant, but keep in mind they almost always want someone with recent research experience. It's hard for them to justify paying someone that can't prove with recent documentation that they can earn their paycheck. You can also look into research labs at universities and colleges nearby and ask about volunteer opportunities. Be very clear about your goals and availability and be prepared for lots of grunt work until they realize you can do more. While a Psych lab would be ideal, don't rule out labs in related fields like Sociology, Public Health, or multi-disciplinary labs. Research skills are very transferable and a number of PhD programs do collaborate with other disciplines and/or support their students wishing to do so. Publishing would be ideal, but not every student entering a PhD program has published.

Now after getting some research experience if you decide you like it and the PhD route makes sense then yes you need to apply to more programs, especially if Clinical Psych is where you want to be. If you're not applying to 12-15 programs (so yes you need to be willing to move and understand there is no such thing as a safety school), especially being a nontraditional applicant, it's kind of wasted effort. Also I would say your Statement may have hurt you (note I said may as I do not know for sure). If it focused too much on your clinical practice experience and how you want to use research to inform your clinical practice then what PhD programs are probably hearing is "I don't want to do research" and those are not the kind of applicants they want to admit. PsyD programs are a little different and may be more open to applicants saying they want to focus on Clinical work first and research second. It may also be that your research interests did not come across clearly, which is why having several people review it can be extremely helpful.

As for the GRE, yes it may hurt you or some programs may feel other parts of your application (like research experience, a high GPA, etc) outweigh a not so great score. It wouldn't hurt to retake it and see how it goes, but that is entirely up to you. When I look at the info programs publish regarding incoming students backgrounds, it's clear that not everyone has a perfect score.

 

[Jessp]

I guess my question would be how can you be sure you want to do research if you don't have research experience or perhaps all of your experience is 10+ years old? I agree that it would be unlikely for a program to accept someone with no experience or very old experience, but a PhD is about research and there is no way around that. At this point in the game you should be trying to gain research experience not just to boost your applications so programs will take you seriously, but also to determine for yourself if its really something you want to do almost exclusively for 5+ years and then afterward in your career.

How do you get that experience? As others have suggested you can apply for jobs as a research assistant, but keep in mind they almost always want someone with recent research experience. It's hard for them to justify paying someone that can't prove with recent documentation that they can earn their paycheck. You can also look into research labs at universities and colleges nearby and ask about volunteer opportunities. Be very clear about your goals and availability and be prepared for lots of grunt work until they realize you can do more. While a Psych lab would be ideal, don't rule out labs in related fields like Sociology, Public Health, or multi-disciplinary labs. Research skills are very transferable and a number of PhD programs do collaborate with other disciplines and/or support their students wishing to do so. Publishing would be ideal, but not every student entering a PhD program has published.

Now after getting some research experience if you decide you like it and the PhD route makes sense then yes you need to apply to more programs, especially if Clinical Psych is where you want to be. If you're not applying to 12-15 programs (so yes you need to be willing to move and understand there is no such thing as a safety school), especially being a nontraditional applicant, it's kind of wasted effort. Also I would say your Statement may have hurt you (note I said may as I do not know for sure). If it focused too much on your clinical practice experience and how you want to use research to inform your clinical practice then what PhD programs are probably hearing is "I don't want to do research" and those are not the kind of applicants they want to admit. PsyD programs are a little different and may be more open to applicants saying they want to focus on Clinical work first and research second. It may also be that your research interests did not come across clearly, which is why having several people review it can be extremely helpful.

As for the GRE, yes it may hurt you or some programs may feel other parts of your application (like research experience, a high GPA, etc) outweigh a not so great score. It wouldn't hurt to retake it and see how it goes, but that is entirely up to you. When I look at the info programs publish regarding incoming students backgrounds, it's clear that not everyone has a perfect score.

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It is regrettable that I didn't find this forum sooner, as I would have loved all of this advice when I was really formulating the plan to apply. It's hard to convey a scenario without writing a book and it seems that I must have conveyed that I don't want to do research and that I have zero research experience. I do have some research experience, and am even allowed to do research in my current position. It's not an official lab but if I were to want to send an inquiry to the hospital IRB, I would be able to. What I do not have is an entire page of citations that contain my name. I believe I have minimal, but enough research experience to ascertain personally that I would be able to and am willing to pursue those interests for 5+ years, while in school and then for the rest of my career.

My original question was if I have minimal research and a low GRE-- is it a NO GO and I should forget it? I am not sure how applying to 15 schools would make a difference: 2 or 15 I still don't have what it takes. However, thanks to all of the replies, I have a new understanding of this and will not poo poo anyone's suggestions. Thanks for your time and advice!

 

[Justanothergrad]

One of the reasons that schools look for research experience is that they want to have some degree of confidence that you can make it through the thesis and dissertation processes. Not having any research experience at all would likely make those rather difficult, I think, as there's a lot of practical and logistical issues involved in actually conceptualizing and pulling off a decent study that aren't covered in a methods class alone.

I sometimes wonder if that is true of it ifs somewhat true but discovered through post hoc reasoning. The emphasis on years of research experience were not a historic focus until the application numbers started to spike about 10-15 years ago, and people have finished their dissertations for decades before that. I wonder how much research experience (nebulous idea anyway since being a lab manager or involved in a study doesn't ensure competence with design) predicts completion of dissertation.

 

[Spydra]

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I am not sure how applying to 15 schools would make a difference: 2 or 15 I still don't have what it takes.

Because you increase your odds. When many programs get 200-300 applications for 4-6 openings I'm sure you can imagine that the majority of those applicants are highly qualified. I'm also not saying you aren't qualified or shouldn't apply at all because that isn't my place, I'm saying its competitive. Sure many applicants will have high GRE scores, high GPAs, publications, etc. But not all of them will. Some programs focus more on an applicants stats on paper and others focus more on other parts of the application such as LORs, writing samples, research experience, etc. Research fit is also extremely important and I doubt high GRE scores or a high GPA is going to trump that. So yes, you do whatever you can to improve your applications and you apply to more programs to increase your odds of being admitted somewhere. Then ideally you'll land a few interviews and an acceptance. FYI I'm not just talking out of my rear, I was in a similar boat as you and have since made improvements to my application, applied to 15 programs this season, and am hoping for the best. But back to you....

It seems like your current job may solve your need for more research experience. If you send an inquiry to the IRB and it is viewed favorably, then will that mean you get to conduct a study solo or as part of a team? If you stick your hands in all parts of the process then why wouldn't your name be listed on the report? Maybe they'd be open to you presenting at a conference or convention. Seems worth considering if you're really committed to going the PhD route.

 

[wtfook]

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It is regrettable that I didn't find this forum sooner, as I would have loved all of this advice when I was really formulating the plan to apply. It's hard to convey a scenario without writing a book and it seems that I must have conveyed that I don't want to do research and that I have zero research experience. I do have some research experience, and am even allowed to do research in my current position. It's not an official lab but if I were to want to send an inquiry to the hospital IRB, I would be able to. What I do not have is an entire page of citations that contain my name. I believe I have minimal, but enough research experience to ascertain personally that I would be able to and am willing to pursue those interests for 5+ years, while in school and then for the rest of my career.

My original question was if I have minimal research and a low GRE-- is it a NO GO and I should forget it? I am not sure how applying to 15 schools would make a difference: 2 or 15 I still don't have what it takes. However, thanks to all of the replies, I have a new understanding of this and will not poo poo anyone's suggestions. Thanks for your time and advice!

But so what IS your GRE score? If you're not comfortable giving a score you could give a percentile. If it's like 40th percentile then most places wont even look at the app. But if it's over 70th-75th sometimes they'll at least look at it. Also, did you apply for counseling psych or clinical psych PhD programs? From interviewing at clinical psych programs with a Master's in counseling, I've noticed that clinical psych people are sort of weird about counseling people. They're just constantly beefing. With a counseling master's and extensive work experience you'd probably have more luck with a counseling psych program. However you'd still need to really beef up your research experience. If where you work has an IRB and people in the building doing research, see if you can't get in on that and make something happen. It really behooves you to learn more about what they're doing and how they're doing it anyway so you can get a feel for what type of research and what kinds of things you want to do in a doctoral program. I don't know that you have to have published papers to get into a PhD program (although it doesn't hurt). However, you should have experience researching for at least a year that is recent in which you've done substantial work, perhaps independently.

 

[madeincanada]

But so what IS your GRE score? If you're not comfortable giving a score you could give a percentile.

I would encourage the OP to disclose information in order to get solid feedback.

 

[futurepsydoc]

I have a question, which I hope will help in identifying your goals.

You mentioned being interested in studying "research informed practice." I was curious about this and have 2 questions:

1) Are you are interested in becoming a research scientist who specializes in the development/dissemination of treatment(s) for specific disorders with a goal of becoming actively involved in academia?

2) In contrast, are you more interested in pursuing research to learn more intensely about specific disorders and evidence based practices for those conditions, with the ultimate goal of returning to clinical practice upon completion of your degree?

In either case, I think the forum could be extremely helpful as you make decisions about reapplying. However, I think identifying your longer term goals and providing relevant information to your application would be helpful.

TO NOTE, I DO NOT mean sharing anything personal or identifiable about yourself. Rather, just percentile ranks for test scores, type of clinical population you are interested in studying, and if you ever completed any type of honors thesis, masters thesis, or independent study during your past education.