HPSP committment?

[MDB0073]

I am possibly looking into the hpsp program through the air force. I just want somebody to set it straight about the committment involved. So, during med school, do they require you to be on active duty during every summer? When I talked to a recruiter he said that it is just one summer plus another course in learning about how the body reacts to altitude. Also, is there any chance they can pull you out of med school or during residency? Last, do you have to try to match in a military medicine program or can you just go for civilian residency programs? Look forward to hearing from you.

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[Mike2010]

I am possibly looking into the hpsp program through the air force. I just want somebody to set it straight about the committment involved. So, during med school, do they require you to be on active duty during every summer? When I talked to a recruiter he said that it is just one summer plus another course in learning about how the body reacts to altitude. Also, is there any chance they can pull you out of med school or during residency? Last, do you have to try to match in a military medicine program or can you just go for civilian residency programs? Look forward to hearing from you.

This is the way I understand it (I hope I am right since I have already been comissioned). Basically you are going to owe 4 years full time post residency. You are required to attempt a match in military medicine residency. You can possibly do a civilian residency if you dont get selected for a military one however if you go this route you owe 4 years after plus another 4 IRR (inactive ready reserve) since you didnt pay this pack during your military residency. So basically they may be able to pull you back in after your active duty comittment if you did a civilian res.. You can be pulled out of residency to serve on a GMO tour, or be made to do one before you even start residency (which sucks) but the army and AF are less likely to do this, in the navy its required. You will not be pulled out of actual med school though b/c that is a waste of you time and more importantly their money. The recruiter has lied to you about ADT,, b/c you have to do one every summer of med school.. one for each year of the scholarship. My recruiter seemed pretty straight up compared to some of the **** ive seen in this forum. You gotta be about the service too... or its just not gonna work for you.

 

[dtn3t]

This is the way I understand it (I hope I am right since I have already been comissioned). Basically you are going to owe 4 years full time post residency. You are required to attempt a match in military medicine residency. You can possibly do a civilian residency if you dont get selected for a military one however if you go this route you owe 4 years after plus another 4 IRR (inactive ready reserve) since you didnt pay this pack during your military residency. So basically they may be able to pull you back in after your active duty comittment if you did a civilian res.. You can be pulled out of residency to serve on a GMO tour, or be made to do one before you even start residency (which sucks) but the army and AF are less likely to do this, in the navy its required. You will not be pulled out of actual med school though b/c that is a waste of you time and more importantly their money. The recruiter has lied to you about ADT,, b/c you have to do one every summer of med school.. one for each year of the scholarship. My recruiter seemed pretty straight up compared to some of the **** ive seen in this forum. You gotta be about the service too... or its just not gonna work for you.

Yes, you are on "active duty" in the sense you get AD pay, but one of those is your training (COT for AF), and I guess another is that aerospace med type of thing they just instituted if you're AF. That's 2 ADTs there. The other two are you getting paid to do regular old rotations (or more like Sub-I's) at places you want to match so that you can pretty much audition and get a sense of the program/specialty/area of the country before you decide on your match list for residency. Army and Navy are slightly different for that 2nd ADT. And they don't have to be during the summer. Sept and beginning of Oct are still prime months for fourth year ADTs.

And your four year committment is only if your residency is 4 years or less, you'll owe more time if your residency is longer, but that's a whole other discussion. And I'm sure that since our moderator is so sticky happy, there has to be something about it somewhere.

 

[IgD]

When you sign the HPSP contract for any branch of service they own you. There are a lots of positives like money, health insurance, experiences you could never have as a civilian, leadership opportunities and VA benefits. In they end the military has absolute control over where you practice and even what you do. During medical school and internship you have to apply for a residency position. Thus the military exerts a pressure on what specialty you go into.

If you can tolerate having all that dictated to you it can be a rewarding experience.

Stand by for negative comments and criticism from the peanut gallery.

I am possibly looking into the hpsp program through the air force. I just want somebody to set it straight about the committment involved. So, during med school, do they require you to be on active duty during every summer? When I talked to a recruiter he said that it is just one summer plus another course in learning about how the body reacts to altitude. Also, is there any chance they can pull you out of med school or during residency? Last, do you have to try to match in a military medicine program or can you just go for civilian residency programs? Look forward to hearing from you.

 

[threepeas]

MS2 Army HPSP, pretty much the same for AF

payback = 1 year AD + 1yr IRR per year medschool
but what you really want to know is after residency how much do you owe?

the best way to explain is via examples.
in general your payback is 8 years for 4 years medschool, but....

ER 3 yr residency= 4yr AD, 1yr IRR
OB/GYN 4 yr residency= 4yr AD, 0yr IRR
GS if 5yr residency= 5yr AD, 0yr IRR
anesthesiology with critical care fellowship (military) 4 yr residency, 1yr fellowship= 6 yr AD (see below for why its not 5yrs), 0 IRR
critical care via IM 3yr residency, 2 yr CCM fellowship (military)= 6yr AD (4 for medschool + 2 for fellowship) + 1yr IRR
cardiology 3 yr IM residency, 3yr fellowship= 7yr AD (4yrs medschool + 3yrs fellowship) + 1 yr IRR
GS + plastics in military= 5-6 GS residency + 2yr plastics fellowship= 7-8 yrs AD (residency length + fellowship) + 0 IRR
you get attending salary while doing military fellowship but you add more AD payback time.

what's the formula you say?

base AD payback is based on which is longer: medschool vs. residency
for residencies that are 3-4 yrs and no fellowships your AD will be 4 yrs.
for residencies that are >4yrs like GS your AD is based on your residency length.
if you do a military fellowship the formula is..if you do a 1 or 2 yr fellowship your AD payback is 2 yrs, >2yrs fellowships (like cards) it is year for year.

IRR: if your residency length + medschool is < 8yrs (FP,IM,ER,peds,etc.) you will owe 1 yr IRR. for residencies 4yr or great no IRR. that is why cards and IM/CCM still have 1 yr IRR leftover from there original payback, but anesthesiology/CCM doesnt.

If you dont do a military residency your IRR time goes up because your aren't "paying that back" during residency. so ER civilian will be 4 yrs AD + 4yrs IRR. when recruiters tell you your payback is year for year of medschool they dont tell you that is based on a 4yr military residency.

you cannot "choose" to do a civilian vs. military residency per se. the military makes that choice. you can request though, but.....
here are some situations for deferrment:
army needs anesthesiologists and GS and NS so if there are too many applicants they will let the extras go to civilian residencies, but they will keep the best for themselves.
some peeps try and get deferrments by not doing ADT rotations in the field they want to go into hoping that residency directors wont pick them if they dont know them. however for some this has worked and for some if hasnt. if you are own outstanding candidate you may still get picked up.

Word on the street is that Army is very good at letting you go into what you want despite their needs, but AF isnt. This is from my dean of student affairs who deals with residency matching.

if you want to make a career of the military and you do a civilian residency have the military pay for it. you will owe extra time but doesnt matter if you are staying in, you get military pay and benefits, and civilian residency directors love you b/c you are free labor.

while in medschool your ADTs are slightly different for AF vs. Army.
but we all do 4 ADTs (6 weeks) for 4 yrs of medschool sponsored.
Army has a 6wk officer basic course either before or after 1st year which counts as your 1st yr ADT. 2nd yr ADT is done at school studying for step 1 exam. your last two ADTs are audition rotations at military sites. our school doesnt allow away rotations during 3rd year so i will do them both at the beginning of 4th year. remember military match apps are due october 15 of your 4th year and you find out dec 15 of your fourth year which is alot earlier than civilian (find out in march of fourth year) so plan ahead.

 

[usnavdoc]

IRR: if your residency length + medschool is < 8yrs (FP,IM,ER,peds,etc.) you will owe 1 yr IRR. for residencies 4yr or great no IRR. that is why cards and IM/CCM still have 1 yr IRR leftover from there original payback, but anesthesiology/CCM doesnt.

If you dont do a military residency your IRR time goes up because your aren't "paying that back" during residency. so ER civilian will be 4 yrs AD + 4yrs IRR. when recruiters tell you your payback is year for year of medschool they dont tell you that is based on a 4yr military residency.QUOTE]

This is accurate to a sense but is stated in a way that may confuse people who are not in the military and are considering HPSP.

It doesnt matter if you choose a 4 year hpsp or a 3 year hpsp. Your scholarship payback is 8 years. It will be some combination of Active duty(AD) and IRR depending on several factors. (I have no experience with 2 year scholarships so there may be some differences.)The longer you spend on AD the less time you spend in IRR. Generally people do not worry about the time spent on IRR. When talking about Service Comittments you are talking about time spent on active duty.


Internship is not counted towards payback and additional training(residency beyond internship) accrues more comittment but concurrantly counts towards HPSP ADSC. See the examples in the previous post.

Be aware that GMO time counts towards HPSP ADSC. So if you spend time as a gmo and then do a military residency then you will accrue an even longer ADSC by gaining time in residency(year for year). Gen surg=4 years, Anesthesiology=3years, IM=2 years

EX.. 4 year HPSP....=1year internship+2 year GMO+4year General surgery Residency+ 4 year ADSC= resignation with 11 years on AD and No IRR for a 4 year HPSP scholarship. Flight Surgery and Dive medical officer generally require 3 years so your total time on AD would be 12 years instead of 11.

 

[NavyDMO]

I am looking for a Navy instruction for obligation left and orders. I am a GMO/DMO getting ready to negotiate orders in a couple weeks. My obligation to the NAVY is only 2 more years. Can the detailer force me to accept orders that will extend me over my obligation? This has happened to alot of GMO's that are looking to get out and once the orders are accepted they are screwed! However, the choice in billetes is limited......usually one.

 

[NavyDMO]

When you sign the HPSP contract for any branch of service they own you. There are a lots of positives like money, health insurance, experiences you could never have as a civilian, leadership opportunities and VA benefits. In they end the military has absolute control over where you practice and even what you do. During medical school and internship you have to apply for a residency position. Thus the military exerts a pressure on what specialty you go into.

If you can tolerate having all that dictated to you it can be a rewarding experience.

Stand by for negative comments and criticism from the peanut gallery.

THere is no solid answer for any of the scholarship programs. When it comes time to get out, answers are hard to come by. Just remember the AF will own you. They willl tell you where they want you, when, and when they want to tell you. The needs of the military superceede your personal life.

 

[IgD]

Just be upfront and honest. Tell the detailer you are getting out in 2 years. They can't give you orders for longer than your obligation.

I am looking for a Navy instruction for obligation left and orders. I am a GMO/DMO getting ready to negotiate orders in a couple weeks. My obligation to the NAVY is only 2 more years. Can the detailer force me to accept orders that will extend me over my obligation? This has happened to alot of GMO's that are looking to get out and once the orders are accepted they are screwed! However, the choice in billetes is limited......usually one.

 

[usnavdoc]

THere is no solid answer for any of the scholarship programs. When it comes time to get out, answers are hard to come by. Just remember the AF will own you. They willl tell you where they want you, when, and when they want to tell you. The needs of the military superceede your personal life.

You do have to be careful taking certain orders and pay attention to dates that your detailor uses when he write the orders(once you execute you have comitted yourself to whatever he writes) Taking overseas orders and desired locations like hawaii can increase your time because the minimum committment at your duty station will likely be increased.

This will be your second set of orders after completing NUMI? If so and your detailor isnt working with you you can always use the GMO detailor.

Remember any detailor is lying when they say they only have one billet to send you. For instance they just opened 2 here at lejeune for the new Marine Specops unit.

 

[IgD]

There is a really good thread where MilitaryMD explains how he got caught apparently trying to manipulate the detailer:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=236513
It looks to me like the detailer responded by sending him on an unaccompanied tour to a remote location.

I would recommend being candid with your intentions when you speak to the detailer.

 

[usnavdoc]

There is a really good thread where MilitaryMD explains how he got caught apparently trying to manipulate the detailer:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=236513
It looks to me like the detailer responded by sending him on an unaccompanied tour to a remote location.

I would recommend being candid with your intentions when you speak to the detailer.

Amazing!

Did you actually read that thread posted by MilMD??? Its all about how detailors are snakey bastards. It had nothing to do with him "manipulating anything."

Detailors are liars. Plain and simple. They will do whatever they want and call it the good of the Navy(or Army or AF). They will tell you one thing then when you are sitting next to someone else calling they will completely contradict themselves. And when questioned you will find yourself at Camp Lejeune awaiting a trip to the Mid East.

And where do ex detaliors get stationed??? Any cush assignment they desire with their families.

 

[GMO_52]

Just be upfront and honest. Tell the detailer you are getting out in 2 years. They can't give you orders for longer than your obligation.

Yeah they can, and if you accept 'em, you've just extended. How nice of you. Many tours have minimum obligations, especially the ones that you actually want (shore duty type stuff). A friend of mine ran into this and she was able to get out on time despite what her orders said but it was a bit of a struggle. Can you just extend where you are? Thats usually an easy way to do it.

 

[militarymd]

Just be upfront and honest. Tell the detailer you are getting out in 2 years. They can't give you orders for longer than your obligation.

Wrong, they can and HAVE given orders for longer than obligated service....

 

[militarymd]

There is a really good thread where MilitaryMD explains how he got caught apparently trying to manipulate the detailer:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=236513
It looks to me like the detailer responded by sending him on an unaccompanied tour to a remote location.

I would recommend being candid with your intentions when you speak to the detailer.

To the OP,

Read the thread, IgD is dilusional....beware of the detailer.

 

[NavyDMO]

To the OP,

Read the thread, IgD is dilusional....beware of the detailer.

I have read the responses. I have NOT accepted orders yet. I know that if I do I am screwed, which has happened to several classmates. The detailers basically told them..haha you accepted , now you are extended. There has got to be in writting something, somewhere which allows me to turn down orders loner then my EOAS. Talking to the detailer is not an option. It will get me nowhere.

BTW: I have the instruction for FS and UMO/DMO it is a minimum of 2 years of service, it does not state you are required to serve 3 years. I was told that by another detailer and it is wrong

 

[NavyDMO]

Yeah they can, and if you accept 'em, you've just extended. How nice of you. Many tours have minimum obligations, especially the ones that you actually want (shore duty type stuff). A friend of mine ran into this and she was able to get out on time despite what her orders said but it was a bit of a struggle. Can you just extend where you are? Thats usually an easy way to do it.

No, I am graduating UMO/DMO this June. We start "negotiating" in a couple weeks.

 

[IgD]

NavyDMO, have you actually spoken with the detailer? It's sounds like you are relying on second hand information. I would recommend having direct communication with the detailer and informing him that you plan to get out in 2 years. Ask for assistance. Be professional about it and don't badmouth the military. There is nothing wrong with completing your obligation and getting out. Remember that detailers are human beings and they aren't out to screw you but to get their job done.

Once you've contacted the detailer, write back and let us know how it went and we can help you from there.

I have read the responses. I have NOT accepted orders yet. I know that if I do I am screwed, which has happened to several classmates. The detailers basically told them..haha you accepted , now you are extended. There has got to be in writting something, somewhere which allows me to turn down orders loner then my EOAS. Talking to the detailer is not an option. It will get me nowhere.

BTW: I have the instruction for FS and UMO/DMO it is a minimum of 2 years of service, it does not state you are required to serve 3 years. I was told that by another detailer and it is wrong

 

[usnavdoc]

I have read the responses. I have NOT accepted orders yet. I know that if I do I am screwed, which has happened to several classmates. The detailers basically told them..haha you accepted , now you are extended. There has got to be in writting something, somewhere which allows me to turn down orders loner then my EOAS. Talking to the detailer is not an option. It will get me nowhere.

BTW: I have the instruction for FS and UMO/DMO it is a minimum of 2 years of service, it does not state you are required to serve 3 years. I was told that by another detailer and it is wrong

My understanding of the three year comittment was that on your initial tour as a FS or DMO you have 6 months of training then you take orders for 2 years and then most extend another 6 months because that puts them back in line to start GME or PCS on cycle with everyone else?

Your 6 month training period does not count towards your 2 years. So the minimum you would spend post internship on one tour as a DMO or FS would be 2 1/2 years. Is that right?

 

[NavyDMO]

My understanding of the three year comittment was that on your initial tour as a FS or DMO you have 6 months of training then you take orders for 2 years and then most extend another 6 months because that puts them back in line to start GME or PCS on cycle with everyone else?

Your 6 month training period does not count towards your 2 years. So the minimum you would spend post internship on one tour as a DMO or FS would be 2 1/2 years. Is that right?

No the training does count. 2 years this July

 

[mumiitroll]

Hi, i have questions about navy fs or dmo:
1) should you do 2,3, or 4 year hpsp if you're only interested in doing 1 tour?
2) please describe what happens if you are to be a DMO with a marine unit or a FS. In the marines, do you first do 1yr of internship, then 6months of tbs, then 23wks of DMO school and then you serve out your contract? how long is the minimal dmo or fs tour? Or physicians don't do tbs?
3) if you do this tour on some shore base, for example san diego, can you moonlight?
4) as a dmo or fs, is it possible to go on overseas deployments(i.e. 3-6months) where you get to visit places like brazille,australia or spain? how about a tour of duty on some overseas base like spain, would it be extremely competitive?
thanks

 

[mumiitroll]

if you are in hpsp only for the gmo/dmo/fs , that is you plan to do a civilian residency, is navy by far the best choice?

 

[mumiitroll]

No the training does count. 2 years this July

for flight surgery, the training does not count:

"http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/Academics/flightsurgeon.htm
A minimum two-year utilization tour is required AFTER training. This allows the new flight surgeon time to practice and perfect their newly acquired skills. There are more than 260 flight surgeon billets in Spain, Italy, Japan, Bermuda, the United Kingdom, and all over the United States. Normally, a list of available billets is announced about midway through the six-month course."

It says that you can do the tour in Bermuda, Spain, or Italy. Are those spaces reserved for people doing the 2nd tour, or a place like San Diego might be even more competitive? Are DMO billets also offered in the same way?

 

[mumiitroll]

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