Thanks
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Army HPSP for the money. Naive and future regret?
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6
68PGunner
Do it!!!! It's free money.
Btw, the Army Reserve is wiling to forgive 50k for each year of commitment. I would look into this for someone like you.
You are not made for active duty.
Btw, the Army Reserve is wiling to forgive 50k for each year of commitment. I would look into this for someone like you.
You are not made for active duty.
6
68PGunner
If you have any questions about military medicine especially when it comes to the BN and BDE slots, feel to pm me. I work with two doctors who are BN and BDE surgeons on a regular basis. The warnings about those slots are real and might even be too peachy considering that most docs here are stationed at hospitals without any experience with field medicine.
Finally, the Army is downsizing and slimming down by replacing AMEDD positions with BN and BDE slots. At the end of the day, the Army is an entity that's built to fight and win wars. Therefore, Army leadership is prioritizing field docs over hospital docs.
Finally, the Army is downsizing and slimming down by replacing AMEDD positions with BN and BDE slots. At the end of the day, the Army is an entity that's built to fight and win wars. Therefore, Army leadership is prioritizing field docs over hospital docs.
6
68PGunner
Thanks. So there may be an even higher likelihood of going out in the fields and possibly overseas? Naive thought, but even if I do a residency in pediatrics?
I think I'm really leaning towards cancelling my app, though I'm still trying to research all the pros and cons.
I've heard the 3-year scholarships are more competitive and there aren't automatic acceptances, but if it's any help, my stats are 3.6 and a 32.
I don't know if that's good enough army-wise, so I might not even get it if I apply, which would make things simpler.
I have thought about the Army Reserve as well, but I decided against it since they only pay back what you officially borrowed from banks/lenders. I'll have loans for my 3rd and 4th years, but my parents will be eating up their savings for my 2nd year.
Again, I know I really shouldn't do it for the money, but this would help my parents so much regardless of what they say. They aren't getting any younger, and I feel terrible that they still have to work so hard to help me.
I feel you. But, the chances of you getting the dread BN and BDE are higher especially if you go to primary care. It has historically been that way.
Also, the Army Reserve will only pay back federal funded loans. It doesn't matter the amount. If you have 100k in federal loan, you give the Army Reserve a two year commitment and have that amount erased. If you have 150k in federal loan, you give Army Reserve a three year commitment and etc.
6
68PGunner
It doesn't matter what your stats are. If you apply early, you will get the scholarship. Recruiters tend to exaggerate the prestige of these programs.
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It's not free. You're trading one master for another. You're already a slave to student loans but now you are wondering whether it will be better to be a slave for the military. (Not you 68PGunner, the OP
)OP, I would like to steer you away from joining the military since your entire post talks about money and not wanting to work outside of the country. You will be miserable.
There are other methods of loan repayment that doesn't involve doubling down on your parent's mortgage. Have you checked out the National Health Service Corps? They'll give you 120k in loan repayment in addition to doctor's pay if you agree to work in buck futt nowhere USA as a primary care doc. But hey, at least you'll be in the country right?
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No such thing as free money or services. Someone, somewhere is paying for it.... or you're paying the piper, kind of how Guido the bookie is looking for you.
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First: you're an adult and should t feel compelled by anything your parents say. Take their opinion for what it is.
Second: Do not sign in for HPSP unless you want to serve. Simple as that.
Third: Stop worrying about money. You're going to be able to pay it all off.
Second: Do not sign in for HPSP unless you want to serve. Simple as that.
Third: Stop worrying about money. You're going to be able to pay it all off.
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Your concerns about:
Money: I tried to break down the economics of HPSP here. I think its a reasonable decision for most professions these days and a big financial win for primary care if you're planning for paying for school with just loans, especially if its a private school. I believe that anyone who takes this contract should believe in the military's mission, meaning you should support the troops and believe in the wars that we have been fighting recently. That being said I think the economic side of the analysis is important and a big part of the reason people actually join. Your medical school cost should play heavily into your analysis, there's no reason to join now if you get into a cheap instate school, if that happens just wait and join during or after residency if you still have the itch.
Your parents: I don't really understand why they're coming into this, or why you would be taking their money. GradPlus loans cover 100% of medical school tuition and that's how most students get through medical school. It could theoretically make sense for your parents to take out a first mortgage vs a 6.8% interest rate on a grad plus loan, but is the rate on a second mortgage really going to be low enough to make it worth getting your finances entangled with theirs? It seems like your real options are loans vs. the HPSP scholarship.
Your recruiter: You don't feel bad for a used car salesman when you don't buy the used car. You should not care, at all, about the 'work' he did for you. BTW it also wasn't that much work.
Travel: This part of your post is ridiculous. You're worried about spending ONE YEAR in GERMANY? You can spend multiple years in SYRIA. Or even if we're at peace, you could likely spend all three years in a small towns so remote that they exist entirely because no one who lives there minds the Army practicing with live artillery rounds. Literally no one in my residency class, or any of the three classes before mine, got moved to major medical center like the locations you said you would find acceptable. Those posts exist to retain senior physicians who have already paid back their scholarship, in between their command tours at undesirable locations. Your first tour will be somewhere so awful they couldn't find competent civilian contractors to fill it. That's why they recruited you in the first place, otherwise they would just use civilian contractors.
Your career plans: Most people change their professional plans multiple times in medical school, I wouldn't bank on being a Family Practice doctor before you've even started clinicals. Alternatively, if you are 100% sure you want to be an FP, the national health service corps could be a good alternative to military service.
You residency training and practice environment: I would like to point out that you did not mention these once in your post, though they should heavily influence your decision to be a military physician. If you don't have a strong understanding of how the military match works, how battalion surgeon tours and GMO tours work, and what a normal work day is like at a small MTF you're not ready to sign yet.
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I am not sure why your parents would take out a second mortgage for you for medical school. You should take out the loans. Professional loans will cover medical school tuition and living allowances. It's a bad idea for parents to take out loans for their kids, when their child can do so for themselves. From what you describe, it sounds like you are a bit of a home-body and a bit cuddled by your parents. The military will be a very poor fit. If you want to do primary care, there are plenty of awful locations within the U.S. that are remote. Before I specialized, I was internal medicine. My first assignment as an internist was in a very remote area where I was 90 miles from a small regional airport and 140 miles from a standard airport. The nearest Best Buy or mall was 90 miles away. The super center Walmart was the only place where I could grocery shop or buy supplies for my place. You will also deploy from anywhere from 4.5 to 9 months depending if your hospital can split a deployment billeting. On my last deployment, there was a FP guy from Germany. His base couldn't afford to send someone to split a tour with him, so he was there the entire 9 months. If you are away from family, you have to request leave (which can be denied) to travel 250 miles outside of your assigned base on your days off.
Like others have said, there are other options for loan repayment. If you don't mind the military, consider joining after residency into active duty or during residency into the reserves. You have a lot more control that way of where you'll be stationed if active duty.
Like others have said, there are other options for loan repayment. If you don't mind the military, consider joining after residency into active duty or during residency into the reserves. You have a lot more control that way of where you'll be stationed if active duty.
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I wonder if we crossed paths... I know those mileage markers too well.
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Boy, I want to add points here, but I think they've been covered. So, I'll just weigh in.
Don't do it.
Your concerns are fledgling in comparison to the real issues you're going to face. As mentioned, you're worried about being stationed in Germany. That's crazy. There are so many scenarios that are far, far worse than being paid quite well (for a FM doc) to travel around Europe for a couple years.
You'll pay off your loans one way or another, unless you fail out of school. Frankly, that option is probably far worse with a military contract than without as well.
And don't worry about hurting your tecruiter's feelings. You won't. He's paid to recruit you. Backing out is no different from telling a telemarketer you're not interested in hearing about the great offer he has for you.
Don't do it.
Your concerns are fledgling in comparison to the real issues you're going to face. As mentioned, you're worried about being stationed in Germany. That's crazy. There are so many scenarios that are far, far worse than being paid quite well (for a FM doc) to travel around Europe for a couple years.
You'll pay off your loans one way or another, unless you fail out of school. Frankly, that option is probably far worse with a military contract than without as well.
And don't worry about hurting your tecruiter's feelings. You won't. He's paid to recruit you. Backing out is no different from telling a telemarketer you're not interested in hearing about the great offer he has for you.
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68PGunner
Ft Irwin or Ft polk as the first assignment should be expected.
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Supporting the troops and believing in the current wars are two different things.
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Being able to make interest + principal payments on student loans is not the same thing as paying them off early and living well while doing it.
Lower paid specialties coupled with private med school compounded debt can be a very, very heavy burden. Med school + residency is a high price to pay for what may turn out to be a barely middle class existence for 10 years or more of loan repayment.
The OP stated interest in a specialty that historically has been on the low end of the pay scale.
The people who do HPSP solely for the money tend to be less happy with the decision, at least compared to people who have prior service (and sorta know what they're getting themselves into) or who want to be military doctors and see HPSP as the logical path to get there.
But we can't totally dismiss the value of the money. Money is a factor in taking any job under any circumstances. OP, don't think of HPSP as a "scholarship" ... think of it as a "job" because that's what it is. They're giving you money in exchange for your services. If you feel the amount of money is appropriate for the amount and type of work you'll be doing, and better than your alternatives, accept the job offer.
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I'm not sure why you chose to decimate your parents savings instead of just taking out loans, but that is water under the bridge. PGG is right on the money, and read the thread perrotfish linked above.
People take the HPSP scholarship for the money all the time. You are the one that has to determine if it is worth it for you. Based on what you wrote, I'd guess it is not. You have to be flexible with your location and open to a deployment, that's the military. In return you are getting about 200k that would have been your parents retirement account and loans. Payback on that is 3-400k. You also make more as a resident, so at least another 100k. You will likely lose some of that benefit during payback, even in primary care, so take off say 50k a year. That nets you about $350k in your pocket vs the bank with interest. Is it worth that? That's a house in most of the country. That's more than Joe public retires with, but is it enough?
There are benefits and things about the military that are great, but you have to crunch the numbers for yourself first.
It used to be horrible to join for the money, but with a loan payback of 3-500k, it's a lot better deal, and warrants real consideration. And you won't lose as much as I did if you end up being a highly compensated specialist.
People take the HPSP scholarship for the money all the time. You are the one that has to determine if it is worth it for you. Based on what you wrote, I'd guess it is not. You have to be flexible with your location and open to a deployment, that's the military. In return you are getting about 200k that would have been your parents retirement account and loans. Payback on that is 3-400k. You also make more as a resident, so at least another 100k. You will likely lose some of that benefit during payback, even in primary care, so take off say 50k a year. That nets you about $350k in your pocket vs the bank with interest. Is it worth that? That's a house in most of the country. That's more than Joe public retires with, but is it enough?
There are benefits and things about the military that are great, but you have to crunch the numbers for yourself first.
It used to be horrible to join for the money, but with a loan payback of 3-500k, it's a lot better deal, and warrants real consideration. And you won't lose as much as I did if you end up being a highly compensated specialist.
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On the money side: if you are really committed to primary care, you will be in better shape than someone undecided who might discover a specialty area that is the field for them. You may even get your whole residency done before having to practice independently, which is an enormous advantage.
On the assignment side: many military docs would love to go somewhere like the UK, Germany or Italy for a tour. There is no shortage of applicants for those billets. You are more likely to be sent as a battalion surgeon to somewhere far less appealing, like Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Syria (let's hope not.) That is part of the basic commitment of a military doctor, in support of the troops, wherever they are. If you cannot live with that--actually if you cannot embrace that--then stop right now. You will be unhappy with your experience and your repayment obligation will be unduly burdensome.
It's nice that your parents are so supportive, but most medical students are using neither the military nor parental funds and yet they manage to get through this.
It really sounds as if you are looking at HPSP for money only and are treating all that goes with it on the back end as something you have to hold your nose and close your eyes to swallow. Not good. Bad for you.
On the assignment side: many military docs would love to go somewhere like the UK, Germany or Italy for a tour. There is no shortage of applicants for those billets. You are more likely to be sent as a battalion surgeon to somewhere far less appealing, like Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Syria (let's hope not.) That is part of the basic commitment of a military doctor, in support of the troops, wherever they are. If you cannot live with that--actually if you cannot embrace that--then stop right now. You will be unhappy with your experience and your repayment obligation will be unduly burdensome.
It's nice that your parents are so supportive, but most medical students are using neither the military nor parental funds and yet they manage to get through this.
It really sounds as if you are looking at HPSP for money only and are treating all that goes with it on the back end as something you have to hold your nose and close your eyes to swallow. Not good. Bad for you.
I've been in for over 10 years so it's a very high likelihood that we've crossed paths.
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Oi... "high price" compared to what? Folks justify HPSP by talking the doom and gloom of medical school loans, but I haven't heard a lot of good examples of more financially secure pathways.
You take out $200-$300K in student loans and are given a $200-400K job for life. Do the math on this. How many other professions are better educational investments? Sports or investment banking, sure, but most folks who aspire to get those jobs never get them. In medicine, once you get in to medical school, you're essentially set for your future.
As for the "barely middle class existence for 10 years or more of loan repayment," that's just silly. You can pay off your loans in 10 years and be in a very comfortable financial class. And if you're very debt averse, there are other ways to get it paid off without all the savings. Work with the underserved and get $50K lopped off by NHSC. Work for the VA and get $120K taken off. Look around and you'll find many civilian employers have loan repayment plans as a perk.
Not saying that HPSP can't be a good choice for some folks. It's just not the only choice. And given the lack of freedom in job assignment, the lack of choice in residency programs (many of which are substandard to what you could get in to on the civilian side), and all of the constraints of military service, folks need to make the decision carefully.
And pretending that taking out student loans for medical school will sign you away to more restrictions than you'll find in the military is just silly.
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Agreed with notdeadyet.
I would agree with pgg that it is better to think of HPSP as a job offer than a scholarship. However (big however), it's actually quite a bit more binding than a job offer. I've had a lot of jobs in my life, and generally speaking other than the typical office hierarchy and drama (which is predictible in-and-of-itself and also present in the military), you usually have an idea of what you're getting yourself into when you apply. If you don't like it, you can job hunt and leave at any time. When you sign on for HPSP, you're eating the whole $#!Tburger, whether your're full or not. You can't leave until the job is done, and I essentially guarantee that you don't know what you're getting yourself into when you accept "the job." So thinking of HPSP as a scholarship is definitely not reflective of what it entails. Thinking of it as a job is somewhat moreso. I would think of it as accepting a job for a manned mission to Mars and back. Strap in, bucko, because the only way off the ship is through the airlock.
I would agree with pgg that it is better to think of HPSP as a job offer than a scholarship. However (big however), it's actually quite a bit more binding than a job offer. I've had a lot of jobs in my life, and generally speaking other than the typical office hierarchy and drama (which is predictible in-and-of-itself and also present in the military), you usually have an idea of what you're getting yourself into when you apply. If you don't like it, you can job hunt and leave at any time. When you sign on for HPSP, you're eating the whole $#!Tburger, whether your're full or not. You can't leave until the job is done, and I essentially guarantee that you don't know what you're getting yourself into when you accept "the job." So thinking of HPSP as a scholarship is definitely not reflective of what it entails. Thinking of it as a job is somewhat moreso. I would think of it as accepting a job for a manned mission to Mars and back. Strap in, bucko, because the only way off the ship is through the airlock.
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There are a fair number of pediatrics and FP new grads who aren't making anywhere near $200-400K/yr.
There are a fair number of people who exit residency with more than $300K of debt, particularly those with private undergrad + private med school loans. Keep in mind that "average" med school debt looks reasonable, but it's not a normal distribution - there are a lot of people who finish with no debt (family money) and a lot of people with obscene debt.
The overlapping areas in that particular Venn diagram is the stuff nightmares are made of.
Look, I'm not disputing, at all, that medicine in general is still pretty much a sure thing to at least an upper middle class life. I'm simply pointing out that it's not exactly a luxurious path for the average FP grad who's leaving residency with the an extra $300K+ 10-yr mortgage at 6.8% and starting a job at $150K.
There's a reason why there's such a thing as "income based repayment" for doctors, and the various serve-the-underserved loan reduction and repayment programs. Let's not pretend med school debt ain't no big deal because we've got it better, on the whole, than baristas and retail workers.
There are a fair number of people who exit residency with more than $300K of debt, particularly those with private undergrad + private med school loans. Keep in mind that "average" med school debt looks reasonable, but it's not a normal distribution - there are a lot of people who finish with no debt (family money) and a lot of people with obscene debt.
The overlapping areas in that particular Venn diagram is the stuff nightmares are made of.
Look, I'm not disputing, at all, that medicine in general is still pretty much a sure thing to at least an upper middle class life. I'm simply pointing out that it's not exactly a luxurious path for the average FP grad who's leaving residency with the an extra $300K+ 10-yr mortgage at 6.8% and starting a job at $150K.
There's a reason why there's such a thing as "income based repayment" for doctors, and the various serve-the-underserved loan reduction and repayment programs. Let's not pretend med school debt ain't no big deal because we've got it better, on the whole, than baristas and retail workers.
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Sure. There are also folks with multiple mortgages and folks taking care of ill parents. There are many scenarios of deep debt. And in those scenarios, folks are almost always better off NOT going HPSP, as they will have much more freedom in selecting residencies and jobs with higher income potential.
True. The "average" medical school debt was something like $130K when I last looked. Family money (and HPSP and NHSC) definitely drive that down.
And often a nightmare folks have to have some accountability for. I notice that folks with the $400K debt tended to go to private schools rather than their lowly state school. I predict that with the proliferation of DO schools and for-profits (and the fact that the young are more into immediate gratification rather than taking the slow-and-steady path) the number of grads with high debt will likely increase.
Agreed. I think it's important to emphasize this to folks. Go to a junior college and/or state school. Choose the cheapest medical school you can. And when all is said and done, it's going to suck paying it all back. Whether military or civilian.
Noooooooooo. We got in on the IBR/PSLF through a loophole. That was never intended for physicians. And when 2017 rolls around and rather than teachers and social workers wiping out their $70K of debt, you have a bunch of docs making $200K trying to wipe out $200K of debt, you're going to see that thing close double-time. I'd strongly recommend folks not expecting IBR/PSLF to be a way to avoid their paying back what they've borrowed.
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I think we actually disagree less than I thought we did a moment ago.
But - the fact that doctors weren't the intended beneficiaries of that program alter the fact that a lot of doctors are using it because their debt load is so high, which was my point.
I think you're absolutely right, and would expect rich greedy doctors to be excluded when the day comes that the program comes up for revision.
But - the fact that doctors weren't the intended beneficiaries of that program alter the fact that a lot of doctors are using it because their debt load is so high, which was my point.
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I am greedy... I need moar ammo.
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Reload.
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nevermind
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sorry if it seems like i'm hijacking your post but i'm kinda in a similar predicament. I did want to join the army or USMC after high school (b/c of all the brainwashing) but after college, i don't want to serve politicians that do all these effed up things. i still believe in supporting the troops though, as a good amount of my high school buddies joined the military and i would like to serve them and their families as a physician. i already got my HPSP app started with a recruiter but kind of regret it now. reading this forum makes me think that the cons of HPSP far outweigh the pros. do you know what you're gonna do?
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What?? NO "nvm"??? Like HUNDREDS of other posts? You're slipping!!
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Go civilian. When done, go join the VA
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I'd say do HPSP if the MILITARY is your first choice, money or whatever second, third, etc. I'd do Army HPSP if I'm accepted (3 II's incoming), because when I started college was when 9/11 happened, I joined the Army ROTC as a permanent resident, planning to be a career line officer, then the immigration service lost my paperwork and I didn't become a US citizen by the end of the 2nd year so had to drop out of the Army ROTC program I enjoyed so much. Family is my secondary concern, money is tertiary or even of no concern since I've already acquired a significant amount of assets working 6+ years as a pharmacist.
But I still want to do HPSP. I even applied to USUHS-SOM. Besides, I'd LOVE myself a year's deployment to Germany. Or Japan. Gotta love them German beer, cars, and girls. And censored Jap porno. J/k.
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Or Fort Riley? How about FLW? Far more likely.
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HA! Ft. Lost in the woods....
Would have a better time at P.I. ah recon...
Would have a better time at P.I. ah recon...
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68PGunner
Try Ft Irwin or Ft Polk. LOL at noobs here expecting these nice assignments out of residency. Reality is going to hard and painful then.
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I was referring to and making fun of the OP's dreaded scenario, lol. Personally I don't really care where I'll be stationedat, as long as i contribute to the Army and our soldiers.
I'll make this extremely clear and and an easy decision for you to make. Do not do this solely for the money. You will inevitably at some point be miserable, resentful and bitter. You will become a disservice to your colleagues, yourself and ultimately to your patients.
Military service truly is an honor and a privilege whether being a soldier or physician. If you are doing it solely for monetary reasons your life truly will turn into a world of ****.
Thanks
Military service truly is an honor and a privilege whether being a soldier or physician. If you are doing it solely for monetary reasons your life truly will turn into a world of ****.
Thanks
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Let me give you my big picture perspective on how things are right now
- The military is in a draw down, so they are finding reasons to give people the boot. Promotions are getting more difficult, those gunning for promotions are doing silly things to try and stand out (such as creating policies)
- New policies lead to new mandatory trainings that are basically useless. Let's be honest, how many people just click through straight to the test at the end?
- The military is in a draw down and budget crunch. To save money, there are holds on hiring for ancillary staff (RN, LPN, admin staff) and actually getting one is nearly impossible and takes months, if at all
- Due to the budget crunch, the military has created policies that eligible patients (dependents of active-duty and retirees) must be retained and treated IN NETWORK unless there's a good reason not to be
- Operational and combat deployments continue, meaning absent providers require coverage of whatever their active panel is at the time of deployment
- Mandatory TDY trainings and courses mean that providers will be absent and require coverage of their panel
- High attrition rate for military providers separating at first chance, and it seems there's an increasing turnover rate for DOD civilians
When a civilian provider finds himself regularly staying until 7PM-8PM every night to write needlessly-lengthy notes filled with, "check the box" information of no clinical value within the mandated time limit because his schedule was jammed with patients who otherwise would have stayed with primary care or been referred to the network, he can throw up his hands and quit.
If you're active duty, tough ****. Pick who you want to disappoint -- your superiors or your family. Because you don't have enough time to devote to both.
Do the math and see your future...
- The military is in a draw down, so they are finding reasons to give people the boot. Promotions are getting more difficult, those gunning for promotions are doing silly things to try and stand out (such as creating policies)
- New policies lead to new mandatory trainings that are basically useless. Let's be honest, how many people just click through straight to the test at the end?
- The military is in a draw down and budget crunch. To save money, there are holds on hiring for ancillary staff (RN, LPN, admin staff) and actually getting one is nearly impossible and takes months, if at all
- Due to the budget crunch, the military has created policies that eligible patients (dependents of active-duty and retirees) must be retained and treated IN NETWORK unless there's a good reason not to be
- Operational and combat deployments continue, meaning absent providers require coverage of whatever their active panel is at the time of deployment
- Mandatory TDY trainings and courses mean that providers will be absent and require coverage of their panel
- High attrition rate for military providers separating at first chance, and it seems there's an increasing turnover rate for DOD civilians
When a civilian provider finds himself regularly staying until 7PM-8PM every night to write needlessly-lengthy notes filled with, "check the box" information of no clinical value within the mandated time limit because his schedule was jammed with patients who otherwise would have stayed with primary care or been referred to the network, he can throw up his hands and quit.
If you're active duty, tough ****. Pick who you want to disappoint -- your superiors or your family. Because you don't have enough time to devote to both.
Do the math and see your future...
