hypothetically speaking...

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chiberian husky

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So let's say you volunteered at a hospital and there was another volunteer there that made a mistake that inadvertently hurt a patient. Then that volunteer lied about what happened and tried (unsucessfully) to blame you for the mistake. You end up resigning from your volunteer position because you feel unsafe around the backstabbing / unethical volunteer. Fast forward three years later & you find out that same person is now going to be in your class at your medical school... What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?

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Tough one. But I say take your concerns to someone.
A quick story. When I was volunteering I witnessed a nurse slapping, and I mean repeatedly slapping a patient. Haunts me to this day that I never said anything to administration about it.
 
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That's a toughie. However, the likelihood that there will be any resolve (action) taken over it is minimal. Do you have any evidence of their unethical infraction, or is it just heresay (your word against their's)? From an objective point of view, it could look almost slanderous, especially since you have a position of interest in the case as person directly involved. Say you were not involved directly and witnessed (and documented) what had happened, that might lead to another conclusion.

Anyway, if I were in your shoes I would probably let it be while knowing exactly what that person is capable of ethically and morally, if and more likely when, you are working together in the future.
 
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What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?

A person can mature in three years. Did you ever have a conversation with them individually? I'd probably wait to see how that person interacts with others and if you think it's necessary to take any action, I would have a conversation with that person directly. It would speak less of you to mention the scenario to any of your classmates. I don't see the point of bringing it up to administration.

Tough one. But I say take your concerns to someone.
A quick story. When I was volunteering I witnessed a nurse slapping, and I mean repeatedly slapping a patient. Haunts me to this day that I never said anything to administration about it.

I have no words. I've had some jerk off patients. One told me I was "thick" and to lay off the potatoes and kept going on about how muscular I was. I'm a completely average-sized female...he was just being a 300 lb meanie. On Friday, I had a 400+lb GI bleed patient tell me I was being a pain in his a$$ for cleaning the pressure ulcers on his butt. This doesn't even touch the med misadventures like one of my intubated patients on maxed out diprivan and versed wrote on paper he would have his gang come and kill me if I didn't take out the f-ing tube. He ended up pulling his et tube out...bet that hurt. I have NEVER thought about slapping a patient.
 
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Your word vs theirs, really, unless you can document the person's guilt from a hospital administrator.

But telling an administrator about your fears is a good way to start a paper trail in case anything untowards does happen in the future.

So let's say you volunteered at a hospital and there was another volunteer there that made a mistake that inadvertently hurt a patient. Then that volunteer lied about what happened and tried (unsucessfully) to blame you for the mistake. You end up resigning from your volunteer position because you feel unsafe around the backstabbing / unethical volunteer. Fast forward three years later & you find out that same person is now going to be in your class at your medical school... What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?
 
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A person can mature in three years.

Let's assume the person in question was also an older pre-med and knew full well what they were doing.


It would speak less of you to mention the scenario to any of your classmates.

Agreed, I think it would definitely look bad to slander. When does it become okay to mention something? Never? I guess I would just try to avoid the person and hope they don't sabotage any classmates?


But telling an administrator about your fears is a good way to start a paper trail in case anything untowards does happen in the future.

Yes, I would consider this. However, I also lean towards not mentioning anything for fear (as previously mentioned) that saying something may reflect poorly on my own character.
 
I don't see them being able to do anything about this if you do tell someone. It sucks because maybe the grew out of it, but maybe they didn't and you just wonder what's going to happen when they're under the pressure of medical school and trying to match competitively or in residency and sleep deprived and trying to get a fellowship. I can tell you from experience, allied health staff aren't to keen on getting thrown under the bus by a resident trying to lie to cover their butt.

As for your situation, maybe the best thing to do is just avoid the person as much as possible. If after some time in medical school you see more stuff from this person that concerns you with respect to patient safety, and if say you get assigned a physician mentor or advisor you like and respect and have clicked well with and have known for awhile (ie long enough for them to know you aren't a whiny tattletale or whatever), maybe you could bring something up at that point. But I would do it without naming names, more like saying, "say, could I ask you for advice about something? before I got to medical school there was a person I went through x situation with. now they're here in medical school and i was hoping they'd changed but they've jeapordized patient safety by doing x, y, z and I'm not sure if there's something I should do to let someone know or how to handle it. Do you have any thoughts" If the advisor knows you and knows the system at your school they might ask who it is and put word out to keep an eye on that person, or tell you nothing will be done and leave it alone.

But definitely stay as far away as you can, no need to get caught in the crossfire.
 
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You have a right to make known your fears. Also keep in mind that faculty are always alert to acts of unprofessionaism, and so if this person does something wrong, it will blow up in their face. So to reiterate, tell a trusted faculty member and/or administrator, like Dean of Students, and do NOT tell your classmates.


Yes, I would consider this. However, I also lean towards not mentioning anything for fear (as previously mentioned) that saying something may reflect poorly on my own character.[/QUOTE]
 
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So let's say you volunteered at a hospital and there was another volunteer there that made a mistake that inadvertently hurt a patient. Then that volunteer lied about what happened and tried (unsucessfully) to blame you for the mistake. You end up resigning from your volunteer position because you feel unsafe around the backstabbing / unethical volunteer. Fast forward three years later & you find out that same person is now going to be in your class at your medical school... What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?
The toughest thing about this is, the classmate could say, if asked about your allegations, "I tried reporting Chilberian for hurting a patient, but he lied and said it was my fault, so he got away with it..." What would the school do then? My guess is, unless you have hard evidence, either personally or you know the hospital would provide it to the school to prove your classmate was the one who hurt the patient, it could make you look just as bad, or worse, than your classmate, depending on what that individual says. I would keep quite, and be careful, if it were me, not to protect the classmate, but to protect myself. Keep an eye out and just be prepared if you ever rotate with him or her.
 
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The toughest thing about this is, the classmate could say, if asked about your allegations, "I tried reporting Chilberian for hurting a patient, but he lied and said it was my fault, so he got away with it..." What would the school do then? My guess is, unless you have hard evidence, either personally or you know the hospital would provide it to the school to prove your classmate was the one who hurt the patient, it could make you look just as bad, or worse, than your classmate, depending on what that individual says. I would keep quite, and be careful, if it were me, not to protect the classmate, but to protect myself. Keep an eye out and just be prepared if you ever rotate with him or her.

Yes, exactly. If the person is already a known liar... there are any number of ways this can go badly.

There is some good advice here though, thank you everyone.
 
You have a right to make known your fears. Also keep in mind that faculty are always alert to acts of unprofessionaism, and so if this person does something wrong, it will blow up in their face. So to reiterate, tell a trusted faculty member and/or administrator, like Dean of Students, and do NOT tell your classmates.

This is exactly what I would recommend.
 
So let's say you volunteered at a hospital and there was another volunteer there that made a mistake that inadvertently hurt a patient. Then that volunteer lied about what happened and tried (unsucessfully) to blame you for the mistake. You end up resigning from your volunteer position because you feel unsafe around the backstabbing / unethical volunteer. Fast forward three years later & you find out that same person is now going to be in your class at your medical school... What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?

Yes, exactly. If the person is already a known liar... there are any number of ways this can go badly.

There is some good advice here though, thank you everyone.


FWIW, I actually think you have an ethical responsibility to make your fears known. There are two issues here that really trouble me: 1. this person did something to harm a patient and 2. he/she lied about it and put the blame elsewhere. The only reason not to say something is due to fear that there will be negative repercussions towards you. While I am a risk-averse person by nature as well, the fact that you posted this means that you clearly do have concerns. Obviously, only mention your previous experience with this person to couch the fact that you have a concern and wanted to talk to the Dean of Students because you regret not saying something before/don't want it to happen again and not in any other sort of slanderous way.

Also, what exactly did this person do? Can you share the specific action he took to harm the patient and how they blamed it on you?
 
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The other volunteer allegedly lied, but it was the OP who ended up resigning...? Hmmm, let me piece this mystery together.
 
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The other volunteer allegedly lied, but it was the OP who ended up resigning...? Hmmm, let me piece this mystery together.

Crazier things have happened.

This could have caused a hostile work environment against the OP in which case I can see a resignation as a possibility.
 
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Crazier things have happened.

This could have caused a hostile work environment against the OP in which case I can see a resignation as a possibility.
Yeah, if someone I worked with did something wrong, and tried to blame me, I would probably leave the position if at all able to if that person was not terminated him or herself. No reason to assume the OP was at fault just because he or she resigned over it......
 
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Yeah, if someone I worked with did something wrong, and tried to blame me, I would probably leave the position if at all able to if that person was not terminated him or herself. No reason to assume the OP was at fault just because he or she resigned over it......
No, but it makes the OP look guilty. And for someone from the outside who doesn't know the people involved, it's a lot easier to believe that the guy who didn't turn tail and run is the guy who is telling the truth. I'm also trying to think of what a volunteer could possibly have done that would be so harmful to a patient. A lot of hospitals don't even let the volunteers touch the patients. But regardless.....

OP, this should be a learning experience for you. You screwed up three years ago when you presumably had the means to report what you knew about this person and you walked away instead, making it look like YOU were the one who did something wrong. Presumably the other person never got caught or disciplined for what they did, and it's understandable you feel bad about not speaking up at the time. However, unless now, three years later, you have some hard evidence that they did something wrong, I suggest you give that guy or gal a wide berth, and you keep your trap shut. The administration is not going to appreciate you being a s*** disturber starting the second you arrive on campus. Also, considering your own suspicious-looking early departure from the volunteer gig, you digging up this "closed case" without any evidence for them to act upon is only going to make you look vindictive and unprofessional.

But if something like this ever happens again, then speak up. Running only makes it look like you're the one who did something wrong, and as you can see, it obviously solved nothing.
 
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The other volunteer allegedly lied, but it was the OP who ended up resigning...? Hmmm, let me piece this mystery together.

Wow, just wow. I came here for help & now I'm being blamed. Geez, you guys are awesome. Why even comment here? Don't you have anything better to do than mess with someone looking for genuine advice?


But if something like this ever happens again, then speak up. Running only makes it look like you're the one who did something wrong, and as you can see, it obviously solved nothing.

For the record, I did try to resolve this "hypothetical" situation professionally & to the best of my ability but in the end nothing was done and nothing happened to that volunteer because they were able to lie their way out of any fault. So after being forced to continue working with this person and living with the fear that they may do something like this again, the only power I had left in the situation was to walk away.
 
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Wow, just wow. I came here for help & now I'm being blamed. Geez, you guys are awesome. Why even comment here? Don't you have anything better to do than mess with someone looking for genuine advice?

For the record, I did try to resolve this "hypothetical" situation professionally & to the best of my ability but in the end nothing was done and nothing happened to that volunteer because they were able to lie their way out of any fault. So after being forced to continue working with this person and living with the fear that they may do something like this again. The only power I had left in the situation was to walk away.

1) This is SDN. A significant amount of people here are various form of gunner and will not be helpful. Now the people who are helpful will be very helpful. It is very much an extreme.

2) Personally the reason I know crazier things have happened is because I was forced to resign from my volunteer position because I spoke up against something that was harming patients and people retaliated against me by accessing my medical information (clear violation of HIPAA) and made it very very hostile for me. So you have my sympathies. I've had to walk away from other positions when they became toxic.
 
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How big is the school? Is it likely that you will have to work with him/her?

I think the person can be avoided in most circumstances, best case scenario there may even be a chance the person doesn't remember me &/or has ever even thought twice about what they had done.
 
1) This is SDN. A significant amount of people here are various form of gunner and will not be helpful. Now the people who are helpful will be very helpful. It is very much an extreme.

2) Personally the reason I know crazier things have happened is because I was forced to resign from my volunteer position because I spoke up against something that was harming patients and people retaliated against me by accessing my medical information (clear violation of HIPAA) and made it very very hostile for me. So you have my sympathies. I've had to walk away from other positions when they became toxic.

Thank you for your response, it is so helpful to hear about similar situations & I'm so sorry that happened to you. - it is absolutely terrifying

I didn't resign right away and I left in good standing with the institution, my supervisor, and other colleagues. I just couldn't stay there and be blindsided again, & so like you experienced, the environment had become too toxic.
 
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Also, what exactly did this person do? Can you share the specific action he took to harm the patient and how they blamed it on you?

I made this a "hypothetical" question because I don't want any identifying details on a public forum. So I will not say the how, when, & where this actually happened, just that it did happen. Sorry.
 
Wow, just wow. I came here for help & now I'm being blamed. Geez, you guys are awesome. Why even comment here? Don't you have anything better to do than mess with someone looking for genuine advice?
I'm sorry you dislike my opinion. For the record, I *am* giving you "genuine advice." I'm also not blaming you for anything; I wasn't there, and I don't even know the circumstances of what happened. Nor do I really care to know the details, TBH. But what I can tell you as the one person responding to your "hypothetical situation" who has actually gone through an entire medical school curriculum and an entire residency program, is this: no one at your future school likes a freshman med student trouble maker. Medicine is a hierarchical field full of people who are conservatives and conformers. If you go looking for trouble and turn yourself into the nail that sticks out, it's going to be you that gets hammered. I'm not saying you shouldn't stick up for what's right if you feel it's warranted. But no one's life is exactly at stake here three years after the fact.

For the record, I did try to resolve this "hypothetical" situation professionally & to the best of my ability but in the end nothing was done and nothing happened to that volunteer because they were able to lie their way out of any fault. So after being forced to continue working with this person and living with the fear that they may do something like this again, the only power I had left in the situation was to walk away.
So you've already done your duty by reporting the incident, someone did investigate, and there was no evidence the other person did anything wrong then, or now. In that case, definitely keep your mouth shut, and keep your distance from them. Nothing good will come out of you dredging up a three year old incident with no proof. And if this person really is an outright sociopath, they're likely a very convincing liar and better at manipulating people's opinions than you are.
 
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Tough one. But I say take your concerns to someone.
A quick story. When I was volunteering I witnessed a nurse slapping, and I mean repeatedly slapping a patient. Haunts me to this day that I never said anything to administration about it.


I'm sorry to sound harsh, but yes. It should haunt you. Something like that should have been written up and reported immediately. And the same thing goes for the OP's concerns.
It's kind of late now to say anything about it--no written communication or even verbal expression of concern close to the time the events took place. You have to document carefully. It's tough for people to go with "He said, She said," that is, if they are fair people in the first place. If the person was liked or had more clout than you, well, that's something that happens in life all the time. Document, make your concerns known to all the appropriate people, and move on--whether it is leave b/c now it's a hostile environment, or stay and try to continue at the volunteer experience. I wish I could tell you that you will not see other situations like this in your future. I cannot. It's a reality. Often truth is something akin to perception; and that's a sad thing. Do the best and most ethical thing, document, and move on. At this point, it's too late to do anything, so learn, like Q says--and not simply b/c how it might make you look--but because it is the ethical thing to do. Things can end up looking all kinds of ways. Eventually the unethical person will reveal how he/she really is. Unfortunately, not necessarily before someone is somehow hurt. Yes, you can be lied about for taking the high road--been there--done that--more than once; but my conscience is truly clear. At the end of the day, you have to go to bed with you--who you are, what you believe, what you are about.

People can take a ton of ethics courses--even get A's in them. But the work of applying ethics involves overcoming fear. Yes. Sometimes you stand alone. Sometimes you may suffer loss for doing the ethical thing--that can be how politics works--and healthcare is TEEMING with politics.

At the least, we all can learn to determine how we are going to live, think, practice when things that are out and out unethical come upon us--and they will, at one point or another. Determine now the kind of human being/practitioner you will be.

That's my take-away from this thread.
 
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no one at your future school likes a freshman med student trouble maker.

100% Agree.

I don't want to stick out, I just want to work hard & get my education without fear. I'm only looking for advice, I appreciate your advice too.
 
100% Agree.

I don't want to stick out, I just want to work hard & get my education without fear. I'm only looking for advice, I appreciate your advice too.
I know. And certainly if this person threatens you in any way, I'm all in favor of you recording each incident and reporting it; you have every right to not be harassed by them. But don't go provoking a fight with them either, and don't go creating an unnecessary "problem" for some administrator who is going to blame you for it. That's all I'm trying to say.

I don't think premeds or even med students realize sometimes how much being disliked by those in charge can cause problems for medical trainees. Both of the residents I knew personally who were fired during residency had done some bad/stupid things, but so had plenty of other residents who didn't get fired. Heck, probably most if not all residents would have a legitimate mark on their record if the PD was out to nail them. I can certainly think of a couple really dumb things that I did. The big difference between the two who did actually get fired and some others who had done equally egregious things but were kept on, is that the fired residents had made multiple enemies among other residents and faculty in the department, and the administration eventually decided that they were more trouble than they were worth. Hence my advice to tread lightly.
 
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@QofQuimica I think the being blamed comment was in reference to the other posters post.

I can't emphasize enough the suck of the power differential that occurs in medicine, and other fields as well. We have some departments where I work that are awesome, team oriented, collaborate and problem solve, share your ideas/concerns, with leadership who is very good at what they do and will listen and thoughtful consider what you say (my current area). Then there are others where you put your head down, keep quiet, and shut up unless you want trouble. Unfortunately in quite a few places if you point out a problem, you're considered to be the problem. Which is why I agree to just let this go and steer clear unless you observe risks to patients in the future and then tread carefully.
 
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You can't keep things bottled up or you'll get cancer.

Be bold, speak up, and stand for what's right.
 
@QofQuimica I think the being blamed comment was in reference to the other posters post.

I can't emphasize enough the suck of the power differential that occurs in medicine, and other fields as well. We have some departments where I work that are awesome, team oriented, collaborate and problem solve, share your ideas/concerns, with leadership who is very good at what they do and will listen and thoughtful consider what you say (my current area). Then there are others where you put your head down, keep quiet, and shut up unless you want trouble. Unfortunately in quite a few places if you point out a problem, you're considered to be the problem. Which is why I agree to just let this go and steer clear unless you observe risks to patients in the future and then tread carefully.


^ this, Sadly this and what Q shares above happens a lot. I have witnessed it over 20 years. You don't go looking for trouble, and you cautiously tread the terrain and take in the culture. Nevertheless, there will be times when your ethics and morals lead you to take a stand. Yes. You may take some or even all the risk. Do the right thing. But no. Don't go looking for trouble. Sometimes it may come down to an ethical or moral dilemma. Live by integrity. It's more important to know who and what you really are--more than a position or even a title.

I feel for you OP. Trouble is, the opportunity to address the issue has past, and I would only get down into those weeds if you see a similar or worse situation rising up. In the end, live by you integrity. That determines the real "you" or " me," so to speak.

Intentional harm or neglect is a an issue that does arise in healthcare...and even some borderline unethical "business" decisions in healthcare can make people want to turn away and never come back.
 
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I would express your concerns to someone in admin, and make sure to have it recorded. I was falsely accused of altering medical records, but was able to prove that the person making the accusations had systemically been trying to force me out of my position over time by documenting and reporting small instances where I felt uncomfortable with a the situation and/or way I was being treated. Mine wasn't a patient care issue, rather two competing departments, and I was the middle person. (I work for Materials Management, in Surgery, who historically have run their entire department, but I was part of the team that transitioned them away from that and they basically are clinical only now). In the end I was cleared after I was able to show not only did I follow proper procedure (had to do with logging of tissues), but I had proof of continual hostility and that the accusation was based purely out of what they thought was a way to force me out and take the position back to their department. In the long run I was able to keep my job, and that person is no longer with the organization. I was forced to tough things out for a long time, but because I kept detailed records of everything and spoke confidentially to HR, legal, and others, when **** really hit the fan I had nothing to worry about.

Never be afraid to speak up about a situation like this. BUT, make sure you approach it in a way that is profession and responsible. I would indicate that you had an issue with the person at a previous time, and it ended with your leaving a position due to your fear. I wouldn't say they "lied and framed you", but rather a more nuanced way of saying you were put in a compromising situation. Make it clear that you just want someone to know your fears, while not accusing the person or slander them.
 
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So let's say you volunteered at a hospital and there was another volunteer there that made a mistake that inadvertently hurt a patient. Then that volunteer lied about what happened and tried (unsucessfully) to blame you for the mistake. You end up resigning from your volunteer position because you feel unsafe around the backstabbing / unethical volunteer. Fast forward three years later & you find out that same person is now going to be in your class at your medical school... What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?

The thing that keeps sticking out to me in reading through all this is the "inadvertently". I'm with Q on this- 1) trainees screw up all the time and 2) nobody likes a troublemaker. That this other person lied about it is obviously problematic and worrying, though I've seen this sort of defensive lying before. It's not excusable at all, but it is understandable to an extent. This person may have grown up since then and it might never be an issue that comes up in the future. You though, shouldn't be making waves so early, for your own sake.

But since you obviously need to get this off your chest and do something to feel better, my thought is to write out the whole, detailed, honest story with your concerns (both about the other person and your own position), then either email it to yourself or go get it notarized. Don't sent it to anybody, but have a dated statement filed away. If something comes up in the future that you feel the need to bring to someone's attention, you have a documented record started that can be added to whatever else may happen. Then avoid that other person like the plague.

Q, Goro, Med students- Does this sound like a reasonable thing for the OP to do?
 
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The thing that keeps sticking out to me in reading through all this is the "inadvertently".

Yes, inadvertently is a key word, the wording of my original post was carefully thought out. I find the disturbing part to be the lack of remorse & the backstabbing. If you make a mistake & it hurts someone the correct response is to admit your fault & apologize.

I do like the idea of writing everything down somewhere. This may be more theraputic than anything, but you never know, I may need it someday.


What would you do? Would you mention anything to an administrator at the school? What do you do if you fear they may harm you or someone else in the future?

These are the questions from my original post. I never said I was going to tell anyone, I was merely asking if I should. I then mentioned in later posts that I had serious reservations about telling anyone. I'm not quite sure why some people assume I am going to go around trying to slander this person. Many of the responses confirm my initial leaning: to not say anything & to avoid this person like the plague.

I do believe people can change, but I only believe it when I actually see it. So until I am proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this person is a sociopath & to be avoided at all costs.
 
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I find the disturbing part to be the lack of remorse & the backstabbing. If you make a mistake & it hurts someone the correct response is to admit your fault & apologize.

I do like the idea of writing everything down somewhere. This may be more theraputic than anything, but you never know, I may need it someday.


Like I said, don't put too much stock in NOT seeing lack of remorse or backstabbing--especially when people find that there may be much for them to lose. Genuine integrity is a very, very precious value that many want to believe they hold. Still, when the feet are held to the fire, they may choose the "lesser path"--the one of "self-protection" at the expense of others or doing the right thing. You don't just have to be in business to see this. Trust me, you will see it in healthcare and education.

You expect something like medicine, nursing, and healthcare to be filled to the top with altruism. You can't breath all of that fairy dust. The less than ethically ideal is more pervasive than one may first realize.

Thankfully there are ethical people in healthcare; but remember that people can go into "self-protection" mode, and in that state, they rationalize their behaviors, attitudes, responses. Sure, we all may do this to some degree, but when it comes to the more important values, well, some face the fire and walk the coals, and some don't.

Personally, I think the toughest lessen for me as an adult, throughout life, is that life and people are not always fair. I was raised to believe in certain values, and I assumed that, in general, others really held fast to those values also.
Having values can be painful--just like making reality your friend can be and often is painful. We believe murder and abuse and neglect is wrong; hopefully, we view it as abhorrent. Yet, daily on the news there are people here and abroad murdering, abusing, raping, selling kids into sex-slavery.

We believe in being forthright, or owning up to mistakes; yet too often when a person has the integrity to stand accountable, the hospital or organization needs a fall guy. What kind of message does that send to others in healthcare. "Since you put so much time, energy, and money into this career, watch out--take cover--b/c you may become the fall guy." That's counterproductive to growth and raising the right people up in healthcare; but it's what influences people to compromise and then duck and cover--or even turn the focus on to someone else in an unfair manner. It doesn't support the use of accountability and integrity.

I'll end with this quote from Scent of a Woman:

Lt. Col. Frank Slade: "I'm not finished! As I came in here, I heard those words, "Cradle of Leadership". Well, when the bough breaks, the cradle will fall. And it has fallen here. It has fallen. Makers of men, Creators of leaders. Be careful what kind of leaders you're producing here. I don't know if Charlie's silence here today is right or wrong. I'm not a judge or jury, but I can tell you this: He won't sell anybody out to buy his future! And that, my friends, is called integrity. That's called courage. Now that's the stuff leaders should be made of. Now I have come to the crossroads in my life. I always knew what the right path was. Without exception, I knew. But I never took it. You know why? It was too damn hard. Now here's Charlie. He's come to the crossroads. He has chosen a path. It's the right path. It's a path made of principle that leads to character. Let him continue on his journey. You hold this boy's future in your hands, committee. It's a valuable future. Believe me. Don't destroy it. Protect it. Embrace it. It's gonna make you proud one day, I promise you."

BTW, before getting sidetracked, the point of the colonel's exhortation is not that Charlie is right or wrong for not ratting out his friends--it was that the headmaster wanted to buy Charlie's tattling. Obviously if personal injury was a factor, it would have been a completely different matter. The point is, given the situation, Charlie wouldn't sell out, even when one of his classmates, held in his daddy's pockets, did.

OP, I think just by discussing this issue here on this thread, you may have allowed for us to think more carefully about such matters; b/c they do occur. I can even see what the poster prior to your last response is saying, b/c unfortunately people are in a tough spot until they have something to which they can evaluate. At some point after the fact, it's hearsay. But with regard to this student, remember this:

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
Maya Angelou

Now, I try not to be too harsh with that b/c people are human or there may be more to the story than I know, and I do not want to run the risk of unfairly condemning an individual. That is part of my value system, and yes, I have paid for having it--b/c it's something you have to be careful with--the right balance of truth and intuition.

This, I think, is a good thread, b/c it brings out the opportunity to see some things as they are and consider ourselves and our own values in the process.
 
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The thing that keeps sticking out to me in reading through all this is the "inadvertently". I'm with Q on this- 1) trainees screw up all the time and 2) nobody likes a troublemaker. That this other person lied about it is obviously problematic and worrying, though I've seen this sort of defensive lying before. It's not excusable at all, but it is understandable to an extent. This person may have grown up since then and it might never be an issue that comes up in the future. You though, shouldn't be making waves so early, for your own sake.

But since you obviously need to get this off your chest and do something to feel better, my thought is to write out the whole, detailed, honest story with your concerns (both about the other person and your own position), then either email it to yourself or go get it notarized. Don't sent it to anybody, but have a dated statement filed away. If something comes up in the future that you feel the need to bring to someone's attention, you have a documented record started that can be added to whatever else may happen. Then avoid that other person like the plague.

Q, Goro, Med students- Does this sound like a reasonable thing for the OP to do?
Sure. If nothing else, might be therapeutic for the OP to get it off their chest. Kind of like writing about it in a diary. But then they should let it go. And no need to go to the trouble of finding a notary. OP could just pop the statement in an envelope and snail mail it to him/herself. When it arrives, file it away unopened. The date it was mailed will be stamped on there by the post office.
 
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Oh this is an easy one.

You don't do anything, but stay the hell away from that person. Don't do any favors for them, don't help them out, and don't put yourself in a position for them to take advantage of you. This is politics 101, and you will see this sort of behavior over and over from ladder climbers. Tattling three years later won't resolve anything, makes you look bad, and you have no proof so the other person can deny everything. Choose your battles.
 
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