ID cards for pre-hospital workers

[Siggy]

I've been struck by an idea that could solve the problem of off-duty medical workers helping out.

Everyone says that anyone not in uniform is considered a non-trained bystander because, in all honestly, there is no easy way to verify the level of training of a bystander. It seems to me (I'm currently in a EMT-B class) that it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't expierence in reguards to bystanders. We don't want to keep the EMP from helping us, but we need to be wary of someone claiming to be a EMP when they aren't at the same time. The same goes with all other levels of off-duty responders.


Thus, I was wondering what the current pre-hospital providers would think of a program (which is easier now because of the national registery) where all EMT's (and maybe even board certified EMPs) are issued a national ID card with there level of training on it for quick verification?

Thanks for your input.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Big Papa]

We are already issued cards when we get the certification, I never have it on me because I don't expect to see an accident happen in front me and if it does I don't expect someone to ask for id if I try and help the patient.

This may be different in other states.

 

[DSM]

In general, I will stop and help if the accident is serious and once the EMS team gets on scene, I will identify my level of training and ASK the medic if they want or continue to need my help. If they are in a bind they will usually tell me yes. Also your general demeanor and professionalism will tell the medics much more than a card will about your level of training and experience. Besides, I am not going to be functioning over the level of a basic anyway because of med control issues.

While I have my NREMTP card, being female...it is in my purse in my car and I don't have time to go find it and whip it out in an emergency.

 

[Oats]

Yeah, I'm like DSM. I have everything in my wallet including my state cert. card and CPR cert. Actually, anybody that's working is supposed to have this stuff with them anyway.

 

[HNS]

I vote on demeaner and attitude over all. You interaction with hte first arriving units will dicatie what happens for the balance of the call. Most people will take what you say your training to be accurate. Once you start working in an area everyone starts to get to know one another.

 

[medicality]

Like other people have said, I carry my cards in my purse (one advantage of the female thing) but I have never actually pulled them out for anyone to verify anything. Helping at accident scenes when off duty is always a delicate topic when discussed, but realistically, I have never had a problem when I have stopped. I travel a lot and have come across many accidents. If there are no emergency crews on scene, I always check to see if there are injuries. If they need help, I will provide care at a BLS level until crews arrive to take over. I always choose to identify myself as an EMT, because I am funcitioning as BLS, but will let the arriving crews no that I am a medic when giving a report to them. I have never had a responding crew give me a hard time about any of the care that I have given. The greatest challenge I have had is when a BLS crew arrives and I feel that I should let them know that the patient needs ALS if available.
And just for the record... if you get a physician on scene it is helpful to ask what their specialty is... at one accident I couldn't figure out why the man who had identified himself as a physician was having a tough time figuring out how to hold c-spine until he told me that he was a podiatrist and that he would be happy to do it if I would just remind him how to.

 

[FoughtFyr]

And just for the record... if you get a physician on scene it is helpful to ask what their specialty is... at one accident I couldn't figure out why the man who had identified himself as a physician was having a tough time figuring out how to hold c-spine until he told me that he was a podiatrist and that he would be happy to do it if I would just remind him how to.

Unless I know them personally, I send them back to their cars. This after having helpful chiropractors (twice!), a psychologist, and a vet identify themselves as "doctors" to me on scene. I also had a non-U.S. licensed physician once doing "CPR" on a patient who was not only laying prone, but was talking!

- H

 

[raDiOnut]

I usually carry my NREMT and BLS cards with me. The only time I had to stop was for a rollover (truck + horse trailer, horses included) with no PD or EMS onscene yet. I checked out the people who were ok (only rolled halfway over) and they promptly asked me to help catch their horses! So, I ended up trying to control some HUGE (bigger than Clydesdale) horses by an interstate with horse slobber all over me... The state troopers still tease me about that one....

 

[OSUdoc08]

I've been struck by an idea that could solve the problem of off-duty medical workers helping out.

Everyone says that anyone not in uniform is considered a non-trained bystander because, in all honestly, there is no easy way to verify the level of training of a bystander. It seems to me (I'm currently in a EMT-B class) that it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't expierence in reguards to bystanders. We don't want to keep the EMP from helping us, but we need to be wary of someone claiming to be a EMP when they aren't at the same time. The same goes with all other levels of off-duty responders.


Thus, I was wondering what the current pre-hospital providers would think of a program (which is easier now because of the national registery) where all EMT's (and maybe even board certified EMPs) are issued a national ID card with there level of training on it for quick verification?

Thanks for your input.

Not only do all certified have wallet cards----they are required to carry them on their person at all times while on duty.

 

[Siggy]

Just wondering because no one has destroyed the second part. I've read tons of storys about "doctors" (ODs, DCs, etc) stopping for help when it was clearly out of their field. How would you all feel about EMPs and MICN carrying some sort of ID to advoid any confusion about what their scope of practice is?

 

[Oats]

 

[OSUdoc08]

Just wondering because no one has destroyed the second part. I've read tons of storys about "doctors" (ODs, DCs, etc) stopping for help when it was clearly out of their field. How would you all feel about EMPs and MICN carrying some sort of ID to advoid any confusion about what their scope of practice is?

It shouldn't matter, since hospital providers don't have jurisdiction in the field anyway. Only EMS personnel have the final say out-of-hospital, unless it is the medical director himself. Direction from a physician or nurse can be ignored in the field by the EMS provider.

 

[12R34Y]

OSUdoc08,

NOT TRUE! at least the two states I worked the physician (MD, DO) could take over the call IF he had proof of who he/she was and that they had a license in that state, would sign off on all paperwork and ride in with the patient. Of course, NOBODY ever wants that responsibility, but if they are physicians on the scene they are the highest ranking person and therefore can trump a medic or nurse.

Now having said that....if the opthalmologist wants to stick a needle in somebody's eye because they are seizing or something ridiculous and grossly negligent than the medic should call medical control and stop the doctor from harming the patient, but if a EM doc or trauma surgeon shows up they can trump you at least in (make that 3) states that I have worked in.

later

 

[OSUdoc08]

OSUdoc08,

NOT TRUE! at least the two states I worked the physician (MD, DO) could take over the call IF he had proof of who he/she was and that they had a license in that state, would sign off on all paperwork and ride in with the patient. Of course, NOBODY ever wants that responsibility, but if they are physicians on the scene they are the highest ranking person and therefore can trump a medic or nurse.

Now having said that....if the opthalmologist wants to stick a needle in somebody's eye because they are seizing or something ridiculous and grossly negligent than the medic should call medical control and stop the doctor from harming the patient, but if a EM doc or trauma surgeon shows up they can trump you at least in (make that 3) states that I have worked in.

later

What are those 3 states?

I've worked in Texas & Oklahoma, and the only time a physician has ANY SAY WHATSOEVER is if that physician is that patient's personal physician and has some sort of documentation approving this. Their control is only in a limited manner. Otherwise, the EMS personnel can take over the scene. The physician can only ride in the ambulance at the approval of the EMS personnel.

 

[12R34Y]

Missouri, Kansas and Iowa. All of the services I've worked there (private transports and 911) have a laminated card we give all people saying they are physicians. It says things like I mentioned. If they agree to accompany a patient to the hospital then they're the man.

All 3 of my respective medical societies/directors approved that scenario. I talked with a friend of mine who worked in Illinois and Minnesota as well and she said that they had the same kind of rules.

later

 

[OSUdoc08]

Missouri, Kansas and Iowa. All of the services I've worked there (private transports and 911) have a laminated card we give all people saying they are physicians. It says things like I mentioned. If they agree to accompany a patient to the hospital then they're the man.

All 3 of my respective medical societies/directors approved that scenario. I talked with a friend of mine who worked in Illinois and Minnesota as well and she said that they had the same kind of rules.

later

Is this true only for Emergency Physicians, or can any Urologist or Psychiatrist do this as well?

 

[jwk]

Not only do all certified have wallet cards----they are required to carry them on their person at all times while on duty.

Why?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Why?

If the State Department of Health drops by when you are on duty, they may request to see all of your certifications. If you do not possess them, you may fined or suspended, and possibly lose your certification.

 

[12R34Y]

No, it is not just for EP's. Any licensed physician can do that, BUT having said all of that no urologist in his right mind is going to want any part of an EMS scene. Likewise with a psychiatrist etc.....Like I said if they do want to take responsibility for the patient and start doing something that is detrimental to the patient the medic has the right to call medical control and remedy the situation.

Personally, I've had an anesthesiologist on scene at a code that we couldn't intubate and he tubed him for us. nice guy. We knew him from one of our area hospitals took down his name, number, etc...

most of the time this isn't an issue at all. Like I said most non -EM guys aren't going to touch EMS with a ten foot pole. I've never encountered a bad situation involving a doc. Most of them are great.

later

 

[jwk]

If the State Department of Health drops by when you are on duty, they may request to see all of your certifications. If you do not possess them, you may fined or suspended, and possibly lose your certification.

Don't you think that's overkill? Is that something peculiar to your state or is it common? Why would a paramedic need to carry their actual certification on their person any more than any other health care professional?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Don't you think that's overkill? Is that something peculiar to your state or is it common? Why would a paramedic need to carry their actual certification on their person any more than any other health care professional?

Texas State Law.

Does your state Department of Health not do random inspections of your ambulances as well to make sure they are fully stocked? It is the same principle to have currently certified persons working on the unit.

 

[jwk]

Texas State Law.

Does your state Department of Health not do random inspections of your ambulances as well to make sure they are fully stocked? It is the same principle to have currently certified persons working on the unit.

I'm a former paramedic.

In four years of EMS, we never had our ambulances checked. I'll qualify that by saying it was almost 30 years ago in Missouri.

Phsyicians, PA's, RN's, pharmacists, etc.......none are required to carry their license or certification of any type on their person. I simply don't see the point, particularly if it's just in case an inspector comes by.

 

[12R34Y]

Yeah, in the three aforementioned states I've worked in I've never heard of a rule that you had to carry any proof of certification on you at all times. Especially at work you would think you WOULDN'T need it. For heaven's sake you are WORKING for the ambulance company. doesn't that imply that you are certified etc...

who cares. i'm sure state laws vary from state to state.

later

 

[OSUdoc08]

I'm a former paramedic.

In four years of EMS, we never had our ambulances checked. I'll qualify that by saying it was almost 30 years ago in Missouri.

Phsyicians, PA's, RN's, pharmacists, etc.......none are required to carry their license or certification of any type on their person. I simply don't see the point, particularly if it's just in case an inspector comes by.

I worked for 3 ambulance services in Texas. Each service was inspected about twice a year by Department of Health officials. If anything was missing from the ambulance or it contained anything expired, the service was fined for each item. We were also required to produce our certifications. If we did not have our certifications, we were also fined, and we suspended for the day.

 

[BaylorHopeful]

I worked for 3 ambulance services in Texas. Each service was inspected about twice a year by Department of Health officials. If anything was missing from the ambulance or it contained anything expired, the service was fined for each item. We were also required to produce our certifications. If we did not have our certifications, we were also fined, and we suspended for the day.

This is the way it is in Massachusetts....granted, I've never seen it actually happen, I've heard about it happening from friends working for other services.....If you work any 911, I would almost expect it as if anything's outta order you could easily be considered putting Public Health of your various communities at risk

 

[OSUdoc08]

This is the way it is in Massachusetts....granted, I've never seen it actually happen, I've heard about it happening from friends working for other services.....If you work any 911, I would almost expect it as if anything's outta order you could easily be considered putting Public Health of your various communities at risk

The Texas Department of Health does random inspections on all ambulances, whether they do 911 only or transport only.

They do the same thing to restaurants and hospitals. It just makes sense to make sure everyone is following regulations.

Hearing that other state departments don't inspect ambulance services concerns me, since any "Jim Bob" can drive around his ice cream truck and put lights and sirens on it call it an ambulance without being certified.

 

[12R34Y]

Yeah. Jim Bob's driving around with lights and sirens responding to 911 calls and nursing home transports is pretty darn common.

you're kidding right?

it seems funny to me that only you and one other poster here says that they have every heard of EMS carrying certs 24-7.

I didn't say that we never got checked. We got checked by OSHA occasionally and they NEVER ever asked for our personal identification. they checked the ambulance papers, if we had gloves, no food in the back etc....

you are obviously in the minority here so I don't think making Jim bob comments is quite warranted.

just because they do it in texas don't make it gospel.

later

 

[DSM]

Our ambulances are routinely inspected by the state by "spot" inspections but that inspector does not check for licenses. A different one does those and they just pop up at a random hospital or service and do checks. As long as we have them nearby....as inside the ambulance, we are ok. We are not required to carry them on our "actual" person. Besides as a former supervisor, I know that the service is required to make sure each and every employee has the appropriate certifications and that they are current. If they don't and an "uncertified" employee runs a call not only does the EMT or Paramedic get fined, so does the service. So no one can just hop in an ambulance and start running calls. Trust me, that would be spotted pretty soon!

 

[12R34Y]

EMS is generally run by State EMS boards. NOT nationally. What the ACEP president does in texas hardly reflects what is done by each state EMS board and for that matter each and every regional/local medical director.

Again.....just because texas does it doesn't make it gospel. Obviously since there are numerous examples of people never hearing of "texas's way".

later