Impacted Feces

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worfndata

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I know Im not supposed to post here but I dont think I can get a better answer anywhere else. How often do EM docs see people with impacted feces that requires manual methods of removal? And who exactly does it, the EM doc or mid level/other folks?

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A lesson I learned from one of my attendings: the ED is a no disempaction / no enema zone. If word gets out on the street that you do this, every clinic within a hundred miles will add this to the indications they automatically turf patients to your door.

All such patients get dulcolax, miralax, and instructions to follow up in clinic within 24 hours.

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A lesson I learned from one of my attendings: the ED is a no disempaction / no enema zone. If word gets out on the street that you do this, every clinic within a hundred miles will add this to the indications they automatically turf patients to your door.

All such patients get dulcolax, miralax, and instructions to follow up in clinic within 24 hours.

Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk

what if the person is in extreme pain an it is obvious in other ways as well they need help this instant? Does this even happen?
 
A lesson I learned from one of my attendings: the ED is a no disempaction / no enema zone. If word gets out on the street that you do this, every clinic within a hundred miles will add this to the indications they automatically turf patients to your door.

All such patients get dulcolax, miralax, and instructions to follow up in clinic within 24 hours.

Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk

This is the problem with academic attendings. They have no idea who butters their bread. The question you should have is this:

Why is it a bad thing if people send you more rectal disimpactions?

These people are generally on Medicare, but if not, probably insured since if they're young it is probably chronic narcotics that got them that way. That means you get paid to do this. (The code is 45915).

Now, ask yourself, "Self, how much do you need to be paid to dig crap out of someone's butt for two minutes before making your nurse give them an enema and send them to the toilet?"

We've all got a number. Is it $10? $200? $2000? $2 Million? I bet we'd all do it for $2 Million, no? Now, go check with your coders and see how much 45915 pays. Is it more or less than your number? If more, then what's the big deal. If less, then it's easy enough to write for miralax. Do you know what 45915 pays in your shop? Why not find out?

Too many salaried docs/residents/academic attendings just don't "get it." It's a business folks. People want you to take care of their problems. They or their insurance company will pay you to do so. Why would you not want the business? That's like a fast food restaurant where every 10th person wants a salad. Do they just keep saying, "We don't do salads here, this is McDonalds." Nope. They add salads to the menu.

Aside from that, this is a person who hasn't crapped in a week, has a stomach ache, and has a softball in their rectum and feels they have an emergency. How would you like it if the doctor said, "Sorry, I don't/can't do that. You can go see a family doctor. They've had special training in this. Here's a list of doctors who might do it. You can probably get in by Thursday or so." Really? That's what you want someone to tell your grandma? Suck it up and help someone. I do these on anyone who needs it, and it probably adds up to a grand total of 2 a year. I'd rather do these all day than deal with a drug seeker, a drunk, or another undiagnosable 25 year old pelvic pain.
 
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Doesn't CPT 45915 require anesthesia? Are these frequently done under conscious sedation?
 
I never minded dis-impacting people. You take a miserable person, with excruciating abdominal pain, and with zero tests, X-rays, or ct scans, cure them, eliminate their horrendous pain and send them home. [Just don't send them to me. Send them to WC Investor ;) ]
 
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Academic attending here - not only do I do these, more than once I have sedated a patient to accomplish the job...

Not an emergency? Umm - it's a bowel obstruction.
 
Academic attending here - not only do I do these, more than once I have sedated a patient to accomplish the job...

Not an emergency? Umm - it's a bowel obstruction.

+1 for sedation. I sedate a lot of these. Better experience for all involved.
 
I would rather disimpact someone and end their pain than deal with the consequences of them returning with a perforated colon (yes, I've seen it before).

The other day I had someone who was so constipated it caused a bowel obstruction, repeated vomiting, that left him dehydrated, in acute renal failure, hyperkalemic, and acidotic as all get out.

Fecal impactions can cause some serious problems, and by not treating it, you are doing your patients a disservice and generated potential malpractice cases.
 
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+1 for sedation. I sedate a lot of these. Better experience for all involved.
Why so aggressive with sedation? Typically after successfully extracted the "plug", I tell the patient to get on the bedside commode (or run to the bathroom) to finish the job. They wouldn't be able to do that if I'd performed conscious sedation. I usually give 4 mg of morphine for pain, and repeat the dose if necessary.
 
So I gather this happens but not every day? Does the attending have to do it? Are there circumstances where the answer is absolutely and other times where its ok for mid level or nurse? Ive been watching lots and lots of youtube videos showing open brain/spine/heart surgery so i can get over my squeamishness. Its working but I feces...I dont know..
 
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Why is it a bad thing if people send you more rectal disimpactions?

Now, ask yourself, "Self, how much do you need to be paid to dig crap out of someone's butt for two minutes before making your nurse give them an enema and send them to the toilet?"

We've all got a number. Is it $10? $200? $2000? $2 Million? I bet we'd all do it for $2 Million, no? Now, go check with your coders and see how much 45915 pays. Is it more or less than your number? If more, then what's the big deal. If less, then it's easy enough to write for miralax. Do you know what 45915 pays in your shop? Why not find out?

Because that is a resource allocation decision in a busy emergency department, not a financial one.
 
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Because that is a resource allocation decision in a busy emergency department, not a financial one.

Again, you're talking like a resident, not a businessman. You don't have enough tables/servers in your restaurant to feed everyone who wants to eat there? Hire more waiters and expand the restaurant. Your message is "We don't want to take care of you even if you paid us."

If we had more patients than we could handle, we'd hire more nurses, more docs, more mid-levels and if we ran out of beds we'd knock out the wall and build some more in the ambulance bay. Each of these people coming to see you is worth thousands of dollars to the hospital and perhaps a couple hundred bucks to you. How many do you want to turn away? I can tell you that your hospital CEO and CFO don't want any of them turned away.

If you're busy, get unbusy. Get the admissions upstairs, bring in your double coverage earlier, get the patients discharged, get enough staff to move the meat, speed up the lab and radiology, build some more rooms etc. I know none of that happens overnight, but come on. The answer to the busy problem isn't to get fewer patients.
 
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Doesn't CPT 45915 require anesthesia? Are these frequently done under conscious sedation?

I think there's a modifer for that, 51 I read somewhere. I don't do my own coding, and I'm not sure if you get paid more for the sedation or the disimpaction (I'm sure you can't get paid for both, that's the way fracture reductions are.) But the point is it is a reimbursable procedure that takes very little time and effort, even if it is unpleasant.
 
So I gather this happens but not every day? Does the attending have to do it? Are there circumstances where the answer is absolutely and other times where its ok for mid level or nurse? Ive been watching lots and lots of youtube videos showing open brain/spine/heart surgery so i can get over my squeamishness. Its working but I feces...I dont know..

Sure, if you can talk the nurse into doing it, I'm all for it. You don't get to bill for it that way, but at least the patient gets what they need. It's like splints- if it's particularly busy the nurse can put it on. Otherwise, it's billable. Do the stuff they pay you to do. In the military, they didn't pay us any more to suture lacerations. Guess who sutured them? That's right, the techs. And they did just fine, most of the time.
 
I don't think you need to talk down to Old_Mil by calling him a resident...Sounds like he is trying to do the best with the resources he has, and you are wishing he would instead try and make things ideal, maybe he cant? I certainly do not care to think like a businessperson, its great if others do of course.
 
I don't think you need to talk down to Old_Mil by calling him a resident...Sounds like he is trying to do the best with the resources he has, and you are wishing he would instead try and make things ideal, maybe he cant? I certainly do not care to think like a businessperson, its great if others do of course.

In the ED:

Interns, med students, and ED nurses are the go to usually with a good strong enema. Ive had patients and relatives try it in the ED. I've done it as a senior resident when it needs to be done. Attendings don't do it

On the floor:

There is a nurse disimpaction order that is frequently used. Usually they have their nursing students or CNAs do it. Otherwise interns and med students. Then a good strong enema. Never done it myself on the floor.
 
Why so aggressive with sedation? Typically after successfully extracted the "plug", I tell the patient to get on the bedside commode (or run to the bathroom) to finish the job. They wouldn't be able to do that if I'd performed conscious sedation. I usually give 4 mg of morphine for pain, and repeat the dose if necessary.

Same reason I sedate for a hip dislocation. The procedure is uncomfortable/painful and if the patient is relaxed it's easier to do. I don't sedate for every single disimpaction, but sedation isn't that big of a deal for me.
 
Takes me less than a minute to do it unless I had to give a dose of fentanyl. I love these patients.
 
I've often heard it pays very well for such a short procedure....but I haven't gotten a confirm from my coder yet. either way I just dig out the bung, give a little relestor (or any rapid laxative of choice) and have them blow the rest out. the only caveat is you should do a KUB to r/o obstruction first. usually the time to toilet (TOT) is around 1 hr or so. when it works the pt's extremely happy, billing is happy and doesn't really take that long. worse comes to worse I admit them if they're still miserable. maybe CMS should start doing that metric with the rest of the crap!
 
What I hate is someone being sent in for asymptomatic hypertension
 
Any tips on the actual procedure for disimpaction? Had one the other day. I could fell the hard stool, but just at the end of my finger tip.
Couldn't figure out how to get it out.
Guy went home with an enema.
Don't know if it worked out, but hasn't bounced back.

As for the discussion above regarding whether this should be done at all.
Some EDs are overflowing with patients and have no way to expand.
One community site where I work would fall into this category.
Admin is unwilling or unable to address many of the requests that could help these problems.
As such, the ED just needs to get the less urgent patients out of the dept ASAP.
Lack of resources and a large % of high acuity patients make this a reality.
A youngish, healthy person with fecal disimpaction.
Rx for bowel regimen, d/c papers.
Old or sick, work up as per warranted.
 
If you can't reach it easily digitally, you treat them with meds from below and above. If you can easily reach it digitally, you just need to break it up (finger roto-rooter), then I give the an enema. It's rare you need to do a manual stool retrieval (which you can just do on your initial exam), let alone of more than a single piece (in which case they get a dose of versed or fentanyl and a formal double gloving). they won't spend more than 30 minutes to an hour in my department max. In residency I used to do the whole double glove and remove as much **** manually as I can. I've only done that once in the 2 years since. And I do it at least every month.
 
I, like multiple above posters, have seen patients DYING from a fecal impaction (impaction->obstruction->vomiting_>dehydration->renal failure and acidosis->hyperkalemia; also obstruction->distended bowel->ischemic bowel->uh-oh).

I work in an ER with no students, no residents, and PAs part of the day.

80% of the time I do my own disimpactions. 20% of the time the nurse does it alone. I get a few gloves, a bunch of lube, 3 or 4 chucks, a bedside commode, an enema [this takes 30s in the supply closet]. I march my arse into the patients room, roll them on side, roto-rooter a bit, pull out some rock-like-poo, and squirt the enema in myself. This takes 2-3 minutes, mostly set up time. I then tell them to hold it in x 10-15min, and show them the bedside commode.

This makes the patient happy. This makes them healthy. This makes you look good. There also might not be a faster way to earn brownie points with nursing that to handle your own disimpaction in 5 minutes while they are busy triaging/pushing IV meds/signing discharge paperwork. Brownie points are nice to have...

And, sadly, while I have heard that it pays well, the CPT code above is intended for GENERAL ANESTHESIA (ie. in OR), and not for ED/office use. If anyone can show me proof of their coders actually billing a procedure code for this and succeeding, I'd LOVE to know. Otherwise, its part of the E&M fee...
 
And, sadly, while I have heard that it pays well, the CPT code above is intended for GENERAL ANESTHESIA (ie. in OR), and not for ED/office use. If anyone can show me proof of their coders actually billing a procedure code for this and succeeding, I'd LOVE to know. Otherwise, its part of the E&M fee...

Well that's really lame. How about if I give enough propofol that I have to bag them, then can I bill it? :) Seriously though, maybe I should start calling the surgeons to take them to the OR since that's apparently the only way to get paid to do this!

Even if you don't get paid, it's still the right thing to do.
 
I don't think you need to talk down to Old_Mil by calling him a resident...Sounds like he is trying to do the best with the resources he has, and you are wishing he would instead try and make things ideal, maybe he cant? I certainly do not care to think like a businessperson, its great if others do of course.

The resident comment has nothing to do with his intelligence or level of training, but instead a mindset of being on a salary. When you're on a salary (resident, military doc, employee, academic attending etc) extra work doesn't come with extra money. When you're a business owner, extra work bring in extra income.

And if you don't start thinking like a business person, don't complain you're not being paid what you're worth when you find out some kitchen scheduler is pocketing 45% of everything you earn. You're already working for free every Friday, no sense in doing it on Wednesday and Thursday too.
 
Yes about doing the right thing I agree with ya. But oh my goodness, the way @Janders visually described it made me feel sick. If I ever have the privilege of being a physician, I think Im gonna be the ass that makes all the nurses do it for me. :/
 
Yes about doing the right thing I agree with ya. But oh my goodness, the way @Janders visually described it made me feel sick. If I ever have the privilege of being a physician, I think Im gonna be the ass that makes all the nurses do it for me. :/

It gets a lot worse than poop. How about bloody poop? Or poopy vomitus? Or butt pus under pressure? No, poop isn't that big a deal. It isn't even illness, nor does it splatter, at least when it's impacted. If it doesn't splatter, then it can't get in your mouth.

I hear real estate pays well....
 
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Totally agree, even if it is only a level 3 or 4 E&M fee... thats bout $50-100 medicare for the 3 minute conversation, 5 minute procedure, and 3 minute charting.

It's like a gross sprained ankle... not glorious but it will pay the bills, right?
 
Well doc, im not giving up that easily. Though em might not be a good fit though who knows really at this point? :) I think I got the answers I wanted. Thank you gentleman.
 
Most grateful patients:
fecal disimpaction
cerumen removal

I kid you not. Save their life? Yeah, whatever. Lyse their PE? Who cares. Make their bowels work again and you are a god!
 
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Academic attending here - not only do I do these, more than once I have sedated a patient to accomplish the job...

Not an emergency? Umm - it's a bowel obstruction.

+1
 
I would rather disimpact someone and end their pain than deal with the consequences of them returning with a perforated colon (yes, I've seen it before).

I have seen constipation cause death (perforated bowel--> overwhelming sepsis). Yes, the person was already severely, chronically ill, but a fecal impaction killed him.
 
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Most grateful patients:
fecal disimpaction
cerumen removal

I kid you not. Save their life? Yeah, whatever. Lyse their PE? Who cares. Make their bowels work again and you are a god!
Plus, we get the PG from the former, not the latter. d=)

Academic physician here, and I disimpact my own patients because it's the right thing to do.

-d
 
If you can't reach it easily digitally, you treat them with meds from below and above. If you can easily reach it digitally, you just need to break it up (finger roto-rooter), then I give the an enema. It's rare you need to do a manual stool retrieval (which you can just do on your initial exam), let alone of more than a single piece (in which case they get a dose of versed or fentanyl and a formal double gloving). they won't spend more than 30 minutes to an hour in my department max. In residency I used to do the whole double glove and remove as much **** manually as I can. I've only done that once in the 2 years since. And I do it at least every month.

I've done the roto-rooter a few times but never pulled out the poop. Do you use your thumb and index finger? or index and middle? Or try to scoop it with one finger? Seems like using thumb+index would be too painful and won't reach far enough, though it would be harder to get a good grip on poop with index+middle finger.
 
I've done the roto-rooter a few times but never pulled out the poop. Do you use your thumb and index finger? or index and middle? Or try to scoop it with one finger? Seems like using thumb+index would be too painful and won't reach far enough, though it would be harder to get a good grip on poop with index+middle finger.


SDN EM forum versus Poopball, 2014 Disimpaction Bowl


"And the winner is......"

"Once again....Poopball!!!!!!!" (Arm heroically raised by MC, in victory.)




Break it in to pieces with your finger, then have the nurse give a turbo powered enema. Come on people, this is not brain stem surgery.






(JK, ERPA, just messing with ya')
 
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At my hospital the go to guys were the surgery residents. The other docs or the RNs would just stat consult the gen surgery residents to come and do it as they couldn't refuse stat consults even if abused. (I was called many time as a gen surgery resident)
 
The resident comment has nothing to do with his intelligence or level of training, but instead a mindset of being on a salary. When you're on a salary (resident, military doc, employee, academic attending etc) extra work doesn't come with extra money. When you're a business owner, extra work bring in extra income.

And if you don't start thinking like a business person, don't complain you're not being paid what you're worth when you find out some kitchen scheduler is pocketing 45% of everything you earn. You're already working for free every Friday, no sense in doing it on Wednesday and Thursday too.

As a physician, I am on a salary. Although I am aware that my salary depends on the financial health of the institution I work for, I do not have the authority to change any aspect of my work life except one: work somewhere else. So given the fact that the cavalry isn't riding to the rescue - it is great if they are at your shop - clinic things need to go to clinics.

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As a physician, I am on a salary. Although I am aware that my salary depends on the financial health of the institution I work for, I do not have the authority to change any aspect of my work life except one: work somewhere else. So given the fact that the cavalry isn't riding to the rescue - it is great if they are at your shop - clinic things need to go to clinics.

Okay for you. If clinic things want to pay me $200 to tell them that clinic things need to go to clinics, my doors are wide open. Heck, for $200, I'll apparently even dig poo out of your butt. By the way, while researching just how much I get paid to do a rectal disimpaction, I also discovered that I don't get paid for removing zuccinnis, dildos, hamsters, apples, or soda bottles from rectums. This is totally unfair. I think we should lobby Congress to include this in ICD-12. Why should we get paid for nasal FB removal but not rectal FB removal? I'm sending my next hamster to clinic.
 
I never minded dis-impacting people. You take a miserable person, with excruciating abdominal pain, and with zero tests, X-rays, or ct scans, cure them, eliminate their horrendous pain and send them home. [Just don't send them to me. Send them to WC Investor ;) ]

Lol
 
Okay for you. If clinic things want to pay me $200 to tell them that clinic things need to go to clinics, my doors are wide open. Heck, for $200, I'll apparently even dig poo out of your butt. By the way, while researching just how much I get paid to do a rectal disimpaction, I also discovered that I don't get paid for removing zuccinnis, dildos, hamsters, apples, or soda bottles from rectums. This is totally unfair. I think we should lobby Congress to include this in ICD-12. Why should we get paid for nasal FB removal but not rectal FB removal? I'm sending my next hamster to clinic.

zucchinis, dildos and hampsters? lol. At my hospital, they do get paid to remove soda bottles from rectums I believe.
 
, I also discovered that I don't get paid for removing zuccinnis, dildos, hamsters, apples, or soda bottles from rectums. This is totally unfair. I think we should lobby Congress to include this in ICD-12. Why should we get paid for nasal FB removal but not rectal FB removal? I'm sending my next hamster to clinic.
not get paid for saving a hamster?! so I should pull the hamster out and stick it in their nose then remove it? is that double billing?
 
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