Impression of fellow Med Students...as a nontrad

[Lazarus]

I see med students all the time (while I am doing my postbac premed) and it makes me wonder:

What is it like as a non-trad in med school specifically regarding interactions with other med students?

-I just wonder is it anywhere similar to postbac pre-med where there is this huge void between students(trad vs. non-trad)? Or is everyone on the same page??
-I also assume that the interaction will depend on the school: class mix and educational philosophy and so on.

Just hoping to get the input of any non-traditional med students.

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[LiveNow]

I see med students all the time (while I am doing my postbac premed) and it makes me wonder:

What is it like as a non-trad in med school specifically regarding interactions with other med students?

-I just wonder is it anywhere similar to postbac pre-med where there is this huge void between students(trad vs. non-trad)? Or is everyone on the same page??
-I also assume that the interaction will depend on the school: class mix and educational philosophy and so on.

Just hoping to get the input of any non-traditional med students.

Hi Lazarus,
I am a fellow non-trad med student (first year), at our school there is no separation within the class, at least not with the students I have been in contact with (mostly all of them). Once you get to studying and taking test after test the post-bac, non-trad labels are pretty much gone..nobody has time to focus on things like that. Try not to separate yourself with these labels, it is easier to embrace your experiences and help others who have not had them. Don't spend energy on these ideas that we are separate. Ultimately everyone is working towards that same goal and ultimately everyone will get there so focus on working hard and giving it your all. This is just my perspective, hope it helps somewhat! Have a great day!

 

[QofQuimica]

Well, other than people staring at the second head I suddenly grew once I started med school, I reckon we've all gotten along pretty much like any other group of people gets along.

All kidding aside, there's nothing mysterious about the social dynamics of medical school. You're in a group of people coming from all different backgrounds. Some people you will click with while others you won't like as much, and their age doesn't have much to do with it. My advice: judge others as individuals, just as you would like them to judge you as an individual.

 

[Nasrudin]

My take is it's as complex as any other similar social situation.

There is a strong universalizing effect on the experience that derives from the fact that we're all in one boat going in the same direction. More so than in the pre med zone, where you might be working full-time and so forth. The average age is a little higher too.

But make no mistake. I'm just old enough to be a father to some of these kids. That's kind of hard not to realize. Daily.

They're are other things that will dicate how well you march in time, that to me, relate more to your own predilections than age. For marching with groups. How well you fall in line. See. There is some momentary illusion that we're our own people. To which most could even care less to begin with.

Maybe if all your idea are soft and warm and user-friendly then it doesn't matter. And cramming tons of science trivia, thoughtlessly, is your idea of living. But. If you have toxic ideas. Especially to authoritative structures. And. You also realize your @ss is owned by every whimsical frown of a superior. Then it's a little more constrictive. And forget that they can smell a trace of dissent like blood hounds...at your own peril.

Some people are comforted by such environs. It makes them feel safe. And productive. And they derive their satisfactions by their complicity with expectations. Part of me does to. Or I flat wouldn't be here. Nor would you for trying to get here. It's part and parcel for the price of passage. What is life if not a series of soul sucking disappointments. I'm sure Q and Ed would agree. The bitter SOB's.

But you have to learn to hide things. That aren't safe to your own skin. We're in a medieval apprenticeship system. Not an igalitarian democracy. It's best to stow yourself accordingly. And learn to live with the stomach cancer that results from that years long suffication.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I'm a non-traditional student who is 39yo and a fourth year. Most medical students don't realize I'm that old (they think I'm in my early thirties, maybe late twenties) and have treated me well. I find it much harder to cram information into my head, and have not done as well as I had once hoped compared to when I was in my early 20's. I don't go out and party with my fellow students as I'm a generation apart, but we do get along. In the clinic, it's strange to have attendings your age or younger, and I think they don't know what to do with me half the time. I'm mistaken for a resident a lot, which can be good and bad. I'm currently applying to general surgery residencies, and they have been known to discriminate based on age (not officially, of course!) but I'll have to deal with that as it comes.

Good luck everyone, it's a rough ride academically when you are older (maybe it's just me), but in the end worth it when you finally get to do what you've always wanted to!

 

[BLKPA2MD]

I'm a non-traditional student who is 39yo and a fourth year. Most medical students don't realize I'm that old (they think I'm in my early thirties, maybe late twenties) and have treated me well. I find it much harder to cram information into my head, and have not done as well as I had once hoped compared to when I was in my early 20's. I don't go out and party with my fellow students as I'm a generation apart, but we do get along. In the clinic, it's strange to have attendings your age or younger, and I think they don't know what to do with me half the time. I'm mistaken for a resident a lot, which can be good and bad. I'm currently applying to general surgery residencies, and they have been known to discriminate based on age (not officially, of course!) but I'll have to deal with that as it comes.

Good luck everyone, it's a rough ride academically when you are older (maybe it's just me), but in the end worth it when you finally get to do what you've always wanted to!

....I will be your age by my MS IV. I can see myself in similar situation. Hey men, keep your heads.

 

[Lazarus]

Thanks for your advice/experience, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[drimpossible]

My take is it's as complex as any other similar social situation.

There is a strong universalizing effect on the experience that derives from the fact that we're all in one boat going in the same direction. More so than in the pre med zone, where you might be working full-time and so forth. The average age is a little higher too.

But make no mistake. I'm just old enough to be a father to some of these kids. That's kind of hard not to realize. Daily.

They're are other things that will dicate how well you march in time, that to me, relate more to your own predilections than age. For marching with groups. How well you fall in line. See. There is some momentary illusion that we're our own people. To which most could even care less to begin with.

Maybe if all your idea are soft and warm and user-friendly then it doesn't matter. And cramming tons of science trivia, thoughtlessly, is your idea of living. But. If you have toxic ideas. Especially to authoritative structures. And. You also realize your @ss is owned by every whimsical frown of a superior. Then it's a little more constrictive. And forget that they can smell a trace of dissent like blood hounds...at your own peril.

Some people are comforted by such environs. It makes them feel safe. And productive. And they derive their satisfactions by their complicity with expectations. Part of me does to. Or I flat wouldn't be here. Nor would you for trying to get here. It's part and parcel for the price of passage. What is life if not a series of soul sucking disappointments. I'm sure Q and Ed would agree. The bitter SOB's.

But you have to learn to hide things. That aren't safe to your own skin. We're in a medieval apprenticeship system. Not an igalitarian democracy. It's best to stow yourself accordingly. And learn to live with the stomach cancer that results from that years long suffication.

Might be time to up the Paxil dosage a wee bit.

 

[MCAT guy]

Might be time to up the Paxil dosage a wee bit.

 

[jinx520]

Oh, children, children. Leave Nas alone; he's a poet.


P.S. If I were to take a gander on which mind-altering substance Nas is partial to, it would be organic ganja. (JK, Nas, you know we all love you!)

 

[Nasrudin]

No. I deserve it. And s/he made me look up paxil. Win-win. I was perhaps a bit moody. Ok a lot moody.

It's not bad at all. Much better when you realize you are the master of your own perception. Which is the largest determinant of how the thing goes for you.

Now that I'm not going to class and treating the curriculum as a review of my own agenda and organization of the material. It's much better. Socially. It's always gonna be weird being in one group of highly ambitious and smart people. While being rated performance-wise against them. No matter what they say about how we're all unique and special, it always comes down to how well you stack up.

How you deal with that phenomenon. Might very well determine your relative enjoyment--hmmm that's not really the right word, but....it can be satisfying when approached correctly. I'm learning about microbes. That's pretty interesting. Being tested on my encyclopedic knowledge of them, not so much...but mindtrick it in the right light and it's alright.

I still miss hanging around a more diverse mental landscape than career driven folks. But. I don't want to go back either.

Those are the ebbs and flows of my perception.

Sometimes narrow and constrictive. Sometimes satisfying. More so the more clinically relevant my work is.

It's different for everybody, I suppose.

But overall, understand, I like my colleagues a lot. It's just, you put a bunch of lions in a pit. And don't expect meows and cuddleing.

And. I like unabashed cuddling. With strangers.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Oh, children, children. Leave Nas alone; he's a poet.


P.S. If I were to take a gander on which mind-altering substance Nas is partial to, it would be organic ganja. (JK, Nas, you know we all love you!)

Right, I will never quite understand Nas. He's like an abstract painting - and I'm glad that abstract paintings exist and are hanging..... in someone else's house.

 

[MCAT guy]

Now that I'm not going to class and treating the curriculum as a review of my own agenda and organization of the material. It's much better. Socially. It's always gonna be weird being in one group of highly ambitious and smart people. While being rated performance-wise against them. No matter what they say about how we're all unique and special, it always comes down to how well you stack up.

Or you can understand your value as a person is more than rankings or grades!

Hard to understand during school? Maybe.

Ask someone who has been out of school for 15 yrs if "how they stacked up" is of any importance to them today.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Or you can understand your value as a person is more than rankings or grades!

Hard to understand during school? Maybe.

Ask someone who has been out of school for 15 yrs if "how they stacked up" is of any importance to them today.

When you apply to residency, you will care a great deal about "how you stack up" against your medical school peers if you are going into anything that is even slightly competitive (i.e. not Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, Psychiatry).

 

[QofQuimica]

When you apply to residency, you will care a great deal about "how you stack up" against your medical school peers if you are going into anything that is even slightly competitive (i.e. not Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, Psychiatry).

True. And even then, if you're wanting to go to a more competitive program in a noncompetitive specialty, it matters too. The MGH and Hopkins psych programs don't have to take people who are in the bottom quarter of their med school class--or even the bottom three quarters. That being said, people who have so much free time in med school to spend worrying about what everyone is doing could probably get much better grades if they focused all that time and energy on studying instead.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

True. And even then, if you're wanting to go to a more competitive program in a noncompetitive specialty, it matters too. The MGH and Hopkins psych programs don't have to take people who are in the bottom quarter of their med school class--or even the bottom three quarters. That being said, people who have so much free time in med school to spend worrying about what everyone is doing could probably get much better grades if they focused all that time and energy on studying instead.

There is some truth to focusing on studying, but identifying those who are doing well and obtaining their study sheets (more correctly referred to as cheat sheets because they have been passed amongst friends who have already taken the exams, and helps people to focus on what's important for the exams though not technically breaking any honor code). If you are on your own studying, you will not benefit from this shared knowledge that will help you ace the in-service exams and will not help you to figure out how your knowledge-base fairs against the Step exams.

 

[Nasrudin]

Well alright then.

I cede the floor to those with all the answers. And very few questions. Those who want everyone to hush and be good.

It is painfully obvious to me that sdn is not the place for someone to go to wrestle with their own doubts. And things like that. It belongs, like medical school, to those who are self-certain.

Furthermore. Digital scrutiny is flat scary. Given the nature of the game afoot.

My farewell is this. Stick to the shadows and corners and cracks.

Tired of making the platoon do push-ups. For the years that follow. Pvt. Nasrudin does the thousand yard stare.

 

[QofQuimica]

There is some truth to focusing on studying, but identifying those who are doing well and obtaining their study sheets (more correctly referred to as cheat sheets because they have been passed amongst friends who have already taken the exams, and helps people to focus on what's important for the exams though not technically breaking any honor code). If you are on your own studying, you will not benefit from this shared knowledge that will help you ace the in-service exams and will not help you to figure out how your knowledge-base fairs against the Step exams.

I assume you're talking about shelfs/rotation exams, because presumably everyone would take their preclinical exams at the same time. In either case, I agree that getting the right study aids is essential. However, that doesn't translate to worrying about how well other people are doing. There isn't any substitution for studying; even the best "cheat sheets" only work if you use them.

 

[EdLongshanks]

My farewell is this. Stick to the shadows and corners and cracks.

Tired of making the platoon do push-ups. For the years that follow. Pvt. Nasrudin does the thousand yard stare.

Oh Nas, stop that. You know that a flourescent orange only lights up the corner that it "hides" in. You and I will never hide in our (opposite) corners.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Furthermore. Digital scrutiny is flat scary.

At least it beats a digital examination.

 

[MCAT guy]

I like how my comment about having self-worth outside of grades or rankings somehow turned into being in the bottom 1/4 or 1/2 of the class.

The two have NOTHING to do with each other.

 

[MCAT guy]

Well alright then.

I cede the floor to those with all the answers. And very few questions. Those who want everyone to hush and be good.

It is painfully obvious to me that sdn is not the place for someone to go to wrestle with their own doubts. And things like that. It belongs, like medical school, to those who are self-certain.

I don't think anyone like whiners or complainers in general (not saying you are one but the idea of informing everyone of your challenges is not generally pleasant).

BUT, ironically, I think SDN is the exact place for that. This forum attracts many people who want to complain.

 

[MCAT guy]

There is some truth to focusing on studying, but identifying those who are doing well and obtaining their study sheets (more correctly referred to as cheat sheets because they have been passed amongst friends who have already taken the exams, and helps people to focus on what's important for the exams though not technically breaking any honor code). If you are on your own studying, you will not benefit from this shared knowledge that will help you ace the in-service exams and will not help you to figure out how your knowledge-base fairs against the Step exams.

Better to be in the top 10% as a cheater or the top 25% as an honest man?

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Better to be in the top 10% as a cheater or the top 25% as an honest man?

Well I always believe in honesty, period. But, cheating can get you far in medical school. I've seen it, and people get away with it. And those grades matter. But in the end, I feel better being at the bottom half with my integrity intact.

 

[MCAT guy]

Well I always believe in honesty, period. But, cheating can get you far in medical school. I've seen it, and people get away with it. And those grades matter. But in the end, I feel better being at the bottom half with my integrity intact.

Bravo to you!

 

[dragonfly99]

Better to be in the top 10% as a cheater or the top 25% as an honest man?

How about if the choice is between being in the bottom 1/3 doing honest work and "not worrying" about how others perceive you, but only about what you are learning, or being in the top 20% by sucking up and using the right "cram sheets"/insider tips for studying, but perhaps learning less overall (other than the high-yield buzzword test materials)? What is that is your choice.

For what it's worth, I think Nasrudin has a lot of this right, and I've been where you all are now...so maybe you shoudn't pile on, even if he sometimes expresses himself in kind of a unique way...LOL.

 

[dragonfly99]

It IS inherently problematic trying to rank students on a bell curve (particularly at the more competitive schools, where the GPA and MCAT range is already narrow to start with). However, some/a lot of med schools still do, though the difference between a so-called "top" student (academically speaking) and all but a very few stragglers is probably not very significant. People start looking for hairs to split...and clinical grades often end up being more about who kissed the most a-- rather than who worked the hardest, learned the most or took the best care of his patients.

Medicine is worth doing anyway.

 

[QofQuimica]

How about if the choice is between being in the bottom 1/3 doing honest work and "not worrying" about how others perceive you, but only about what you are learning, or being in the top 20% by sucking up and using the right "cram sheets"/insider tips for studying, but perhaps learning less overall (other than the high-yield buzzword test materials)? What is that is your choice.

You of all people don't need me to tell you that what you've set up is a complete false dichotomy. Assuming a student doesn't have an exam every day, and I know of no medical school that operates on such a schedule (most don't even have exams every week), there is no reason why you can't (and shouldn't) do some of each. When it comes to exams, yes, you have to memorize a lot of pointless minutiae, and there ain't no better example of that than the granddaddy of all med school tests known as Step 1. (G protein-receptor coupling for 200, Alex?) But there is most definitely time in between cramming for tests to really learn things on your own, if that's something you want to do. In my case, it was pharm--I definitely spent way more time studying pharm in med school than the average student does, and moreover, than the average student *wants* to do.

 

[siliso]

I don't really feel like I have a lot socially in common with people who are at an extremely different stage of their lives than I am, outside of school. I like them in general and get along with them fine, but we're not going to kick it on the weekend probably.

Once or twice I have had people assume that I'm gonna be humorless or easily offended, either because I'm older than them or because I'm a parent. I'm not, so it's easy to get past that. Once or twice I have been taken back when I realized there really is a gulf between me and someone else, maybe in terms of experience with being on your own, and with how unforgiving life can be.

I can't study 12 hours a day or hit the bars on Thursday night. It's okay, because I'm not 22 and so I don't want to. School is important but it's not the most important thing in my life. Stacking up fine for the moment, but it's not like there's anything you can do about that anyway but to do your best within reason.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Sarcasm? LOL (re: clapping man)

 

[MCAT guy]

Sarcasm? LOL (re: clapping man)

lol.

No, not sarcasm. Character is the most important thing.

 

[SFO-IST]

lol.

No, not sarcasm. Character is the most important thing.

I agree. And it's not just "believing in honesty". If you think about it, one would be much more likely to study hard if they could genuinely believe that they have the ability to kick everyone's ass on an exam. If you get a good grade by cheating, you rob yourself of that bragging right. You rob yourself of the ability to look at yourself in the mirror and say "I deserve to be the best".

 

[spiderpete]

I don't really feel like I have a lot socially in common with people who are at an extremely different stage of their lives than I am, outside of school. I like them in general and get along with them fine, but we're not going to kick it on the weekend probably.

I don't know. I got along very well with the undergrads and fellow non trads (even they were half my age) during my post bacc year. We socialized pretty regularly, happy hour after class on Friday, out to my place for boardgames and dinner a few times, fundraisers we were involved in. It was not near as frequent as when I was an ug myself, but often enough that we have enduring friendship. These are the first friends I call with news about school. They get it more than my other friends. I guess it comes down to who you meet and what you make of it.

 

[Lazarus]

I agree. And it's not just "believing in honesty". If you think about it, one would be much more likely to study hard if they could genuinely believe that they have the ability to kick everyone's ass on an exam. If you get a good grade by cheating, you rob yourself of that bragging right. You rob yourself of the ability to look at yourself in the mirror and say "I deserve to be the best".

Motivated by bragging rights I like it! (I'm just poking fun).

 

[Lazarus]

I don't know. I got along very well with the undergrads and fellow non trads (even they were half my age) during my post bacc year. We socialized pretty regularly, happy hour after class on Friday, out to my place for boardgames and dinner a few times, fundraisers we were involved in. It was not near as frequent as when I was an ug myself, but often enough that we have enduring friendship. These are the first friends I call with news about school. They get it more than my other friends. I guess it comes down to who you meet and what you make of it.

Does this situation affect your experience at school: gaining knowledge, grades, overall experience?

I feel like I have nil in common with undergrads in my classes, and back in grad school I felt like I had nil in common with students who were straight out of undergrad; but it did not seem to have any impact upon school.

I just wonder how much of the Med school experience is based upon peer interaction.

 

[spiderpete]

Does this situation affect your experience at school: gaining knowledge, grades, overall experience?

I feel like I have nil in common with undergrads in my classes, and back in grad school I felt like I had nil in common with students who were straight out of undergrad; but it did not seem to have any impact upon school.

I just wonder how much of the Med school experience is based upon peer interaction.

I'd have to say it made a huge impact on my experience as a post-bacc, and I expect it will as a med student. It's more enjoyable to go to class when you have friends to sit with. The work goes more smoothly when there is someone you trust to bounce ideas off, study with, etc.

At the risk of overemphasis, the quality of my experience in school and career has been driven mostly by the quality of the people with whom I interacted. I think one of the key reasons people try to work for great companies or attend great schools is to work with smart, personable, highly motivated people.

It's worth the effort to get to know the students (and profs too for that matter).

 

[siliso]

Does this situation affect your experience at school: gaining knowledge, grades, overall experience?

I feel like I have nil in common with undergrads in my classes, and back in grad school I felt like I had nil in common with students who were straight out of undergrad; but it did not seem to have any impact upon school.

I just wonder how much of the Med school experience is based upon peer interaction.

Well, you're all in school together, taking all the same classes, participating in small group activities/PBLs together, so you'll have that in common. I wasn't saying I'm totally isolated with no friends or something - just that when it comes to non-official activities, I tend to gravitate toward people who share some of my non-school priorities and values.

 

[jl lin]

Well alright then.

I cede the floor to those with all the answers. And very few questions. Those who want everyone to hush and be good.

It is painfully obvious to me that sdn is not the place for someone to go to wrestle with their own doubts. And things like that. It belongs, like medical school, to those who are self-certain.

Furthermore. Digital scrutiny is flat scary. Given the nature of the game afoot.

My farewell is this. Stick to the shadows and corners and cracks.

Tired of making the platoon do push-ups. For the years that follow. Pvt. Nasrudin does the thousand yard stare.

Nas. . .NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Don't Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will so ruin SDN (especially Nontrads) if you leave. Seriously. And now that you are in the MS, many of us want your insights more than ever.

I enjoy your responses. . .truly. . .even every, single sentence fragment.

I'm not kidding. When you take your breaks from studying, you had better be dropping by and sharing here.


As some say in my neck of the woods, "Don'ta maakaa me smacka you!"

 

[sindadel]

I like my classmates and get along well with them. My closer friends are probably on the older side, but there's really not much of a pattern.

And my advice is to go out drinking and dancing with them every once in a while. They'll really appreciate it.

And Nas - Please please don't go!!!!

 

[Dharma]

Nas you are an alchemist with the written word. The opinions of the blinder-wearing rugrats don't mean a thing. Keep up the good work and bringing the real.