Increasing the stimulus amplitude of an action potential

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kobe200LATE

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What happens when you increase the stimulus amplitude of an action potential?

At first, I was thinking that an increase in stimulus amplitude would increase the frequency of AP firing, but I think that's wrong because the frequency of AP firing is dependent on the refractory period of the neuron. Is this right?

Would increasing the stimulus amplitude only increase the number of action potentials that are fired as a result of that one stimulus?

Thanks,

kobe 200-and-LATE

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Also, another question on the same topic:

If a neuron is in its relative refractory period and a stimulus large enough to bring the membrane potential to threshold is applied, would the amplitude of the resulting action potential be less than or equal to the amplitude of an action potential that was not in the relative refractory period?

Thanks,

kobe-200-and-LATE
 
Also, another question on the same topic:

If a neuron is in its relative refractory period and a stimulus large enough to bring the membrane potential to threshold is applied, would the amplitude of the resulting action potential be less than or equal to the amplitude of an action potential that was not in the relative refractory period?

Thanks,

kobe-200-and-LATE

My guess is that they would be similar, since action potentials are all-or-nothing. Once threshold potential is reached, wouldn't it be just like starting an action potential from the resting potential?
 
Yea thats what I thought too, but for some reason I remember doing a computer simulation lab for one of my classes where we did the same hting, but I remember the AP having a decreased amplitude.

Anyone else have any input on this or the other questions?
 
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Yea thats what I thought too, but for some reason I remember doing a computer simulation lab for one of my classes where we did the same hting, but I remember the AP having a decreased amplitude.

Anyone else have any input on this or the other questions?
I'm not completely sure, but here's my take on this. At the peak of the action potential, when the Na+ channels close, the K+ channels open and this increases K+ conductance (K+ ions leave the cell); this causes the repolarization. However, these K+ channels are open throughout the refractory phases until the end of the relative refractory period. So, when another action potential is initiated during the relative refractory period (due to a stronger stimulus), Na+ ions are rushing into the cell but, at the same time, K+ ions are still leaving the cell (due to some of the channels still being open).

This K+ conductance during the relative refractory period would then cause the amplitude of the action potential during that time to be decreased. Like I mentioned, I'm not completely positive on this, but I'm pretty sure it's right.
 
If a neuron is stimulated into having an action potential during it's relative refractory period, the amplitude of the actions potential will be the same as as action potential produced when it wasn't in its refractory period. As far as I know, an action potential will always depolarize to a single voltage and only the frequency of firing can be changed.

Hope this helps.
 
If a neuron is stimulated into having an action potential during it's relative refractory period, the amplitude of the actions potential will be the same as as action potential produced when it wasn't in its refractory period. As far as I know, an action potential will always depolarize to a single voltage and only the frequency of firing can be changed.

Hope this helps.

This is not true though. If another action potential occurs during the relative refractory period, it's amplitude is lower than that of the original action potential. I tried searching some more as to the reason behind why this happens, but most textbooks/websites I looked just mentioned that the amplitude is lower but not the mechanism behind it. My answer in my previous post makes sense to me, but I'm not completely sure about since I don't know much about the kinetics behind the K+ channel's activation gate. But I do know that the K+ channels are open through the relative refractory period so there is some outflow of K+ during that time. This is what I think is the reason behind the decreased amplitude of the action potential fired during the RRP.
 
I'm pretty sure Kaushik is right. I definitely remember in my lab class that there was a decrease in amplitude of the AP when it was stimulated in a relative refractory period. Does anyone have a definitive answer for why this is?
 
Hmmm. I was under the impression that the K+ flowing out during the refractory period resulted in a larger stimulus being required to cause another action potential. Can you post some links stating that the amplitude decreases if the neuron is activated during the relative refractory period? This is something I want to be clear about, since I'm studying for the MCAT right now as well.
 
Does anyone have anything to say about the first couple of questions that I brought up:

What happens when you increase the stimulus amplitude of an action potential?

At first, I was thinking that an increase in stimulus amplitude would increase the frequency of AP firing, but I think that's wrong because the frequency of AP firing is dependent on the refractory period of the neuron. Is this right?

Would increasing the stimulus amplitude only increase the number of action potentials that are fired as a result of that one stimulus?
 
Does anyone have anything to say about the first couple of questions that I brought up:

What happens when you increase the stimulus amplitude of an action potential?

At first, I was thinking that an increase in stimulus amplitude would increase the frequency of AP firing, but I think that's wrong because the frequency of AP firing is dependent on the refractory period of the neuron. Is this right?

Would increasing the stimulus amplitude only increase the number of action potentials that are fired as a result of that one stimulus?
A greater stimulus would increase the frequency of AP firing, but only up to a certain point, when the refractory periods limit further increases in frequency.
 
Does anyone have anything to say about the first couple of questions that I brought up:

What happens when you increase the stimulus amplitude of an action potential?

At first, I was thinking that an increase in stimulus amplitude would increase the frequency of AP firing, but I think that's wrong because the frequency of AP firing is dependent on the refractory period of the neuron. Is this right?

Would increasing the stimulus amplitude only increase the number of action potentials that are fired as a result of that one stimulus?
Increase stimulus amplitude of an action potential --> increases frequency of AP firing but NOT the amplitude of APs, remember that they are all or nothing events.

There is a relative refractory period that follows an action potential and an absolute refractory period. To some degree, APs can be fired during the relative refractory period, but none during the absolute refractory period which will ultimately be the limiting factor, but the key thing to know is that the AP firing rate CAN increase!
 
Can an action potential still be fired during the absolute refractory period?

Although some VG-Na+ channels are inactivated, aren't some of them still able to be activated, meaning a smaller amplitude AP is produced? Isn't this what happens during temporal summation?
 
Can an action potential still be fired during the absolute refractory period?

Although some VG-Na+ channels are inactivated, aren't some of them still able to be activated, meaning a smaller amplitude AP is produced? Isn't this what happens during temporal summation?
No, an action potential CANNOT be fired during the absolute refractory period. All the Na+ channels still have their inactivation gates closed during the absolute refractory period; when they start opening up, you're in the relative refractory period, not the absolute. Remember that the Na+ inactivation gate closes moments after the activation gates open; so at the peak of the action potential, the inactivation gates close. These gates stay closed from the spike to a time after repolarization is almost complete. This time from the initiation of the spike to the opening of the inactivation gates is the absolute refractory period. So you cannot have an action potential fired during this time. Hope this helps.
 
So I understand what you're saying about the absolute refractory period and that the VG-Na+ channels close, but what I'm asking is whether or not ALL of the VG-Na+ channels are inactivated during the absolute refractory period.

Couldn't some VG-Na+ channels not yet be inactivated and can't they fire when a stimulus is applied and produce another AP on top of that AP with a lower stimulus amplitude? Isn't this what happens during temporal summation when you stimulate the neuron BEFORE it can fully repolarize back to its resting membrane potential?
 
So I understand what you're saying about the absolute refractory period and that the VG-Na+ channels close, but what I'm asking is whether or not ALL of the VG-Na+ channels are inactivated during the absolute refractory period.

Couldn't some VG-Na+ channels not yet be inactivated and can't they fire when a stimulus is applied and produce another AP on top of that AP with a lower stimulus amplitude? Isn't this what happens during temporal summation when you stimulate the neuron BEFORE it can fully repolarize back to its resting membrane potential?
There is a very high probability that all the Na+ channels are closed during the absolute refractory period. The inactivation gates cannot open until a certain level of repolarization is achieved. So if the cell doesn't repolarize to the potential value where the inactivation gates start opening, they can't open. Until the cell's potential repolarizes to this value where the inactivation gates start opening, it's in absolute refractory period; so, ALL the Na+ channels are very, very likely to be closed during the absolute refractory period.

Also, I can't tell if you're thinking of summation in the sense that it involves action potentials firing. Summation allows the potential to reach threshold to fire an action potential. So you're not firing action potentials rapidly, rather you're using summation to initiate (or inhibit) an action potential. In your example of temporal summation, the frequency of incoming potentials (not action potentials) is high enough that the inward currents sum up to the threshold to produce an action potential. Ex: the first potential causes some depolarization before the ion channels it uses start closing; if the next potential arrives before the membrane potential is repolarized to normal, the inward current causes even more depolarization (since the cell was slightly depolarized from the previous potential), and so on. This continues until the threshold potential for firing an action potential is reached. If the threshold is reached, an action potential is fired; if the threshold is not reached, no action potential is fired.

If the frequency of the temporal summation is slow enough that it depolarizes the cell but not to threshold, yes, some Na+ channels will close until the membrane potential repolarizes to a certain extent. Remember that temporal/spatial summations are not firing action potentials; they are used to initiate or inhibit an action potential. They involve neurotransmission and the neurotransmitter can open/close ion channels in the postsynaptic cell. Hope this helps.

PS. Sorry if I repeated things you already knew about summation. I couldn't tell if you were confused as to what summation is or not so I figured I should go the safe way and explain it anyways. :)
 
Hey guys I know this is an old thread but it helped me out a lot with some questions that I had, so thanks!
Im going to attach a link that I also found to be helpful for others in the future looking up these types of questions.

http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s1/chapter01.html

-This is a lecture video, plus is has some simulations on the website. The key thing I took away was that, an AP is an all-or-nothing response (you will get the same peak), but the intensity of the stimulus will determine the frequency of that AP.
 
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