Information about University of Minnesota

[duke10]

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I had a chance to interview at U of MN Pathology in November. I heard not lot of good things about the program. I just met a med student who rotated in pathology, few months back. There surgical pathology fellowship was cancelled for 2 years, not sure why but because of some legal action... and now they have 1 fellow. Residents are treated like **** and made to work. I heard somebody left the program few months back. Even at the interview I felt that the chiefs did not want the rest of the residents to talk to applicants. The residents seemed unhappy.The med student said it was a malignant program with lot of pimping. Residents seem to hate the program. She was not going to apply here, although she is from University of Minnesota. Guess I just wasted my time interviewing there......

 

[Sulfinator]

Don't they have Robert McKenna (big hemepath guy) on faculty there now?

 

[duke10]

Yes, I heard about him. I asked the residents about him as well. They hardly see him, which is kind of strange 😕

 

[2121115]

Yes, I heard about him. I asked the residents about him as well. They hardly see him, which is kind of strange 😕

I think one of the frequent posters around here was a recent graduate of the program at Minn. I'm not entirely sure though. Descutes maybe? I can't remember.

 

[path28]

I had a chance to interview at UMN Pathology In November. I have heard not lot of good things about the program. I just met a med student who rotated in pathology, few months back. The program is not good in teaching, there surgical pathology fellowship was cancelled for 2 years, not sure why but because of some legal action... and just got renewed and now they have 1 fellow. Residents are treated like **** and made to work. Every year residents are leaving the program. I heard somebody left the program few months back. Even at the interview I felt that the chiefs did not want the rest of the residents to talk to applicants. The residents seemed unhappy.The med student said it was a malignant program with lot of pimping. Residents seem to hate the program. She was not going to apply here, although she is from University of Minnesota. The program director is old, strange guy, not very pleasant during the interview. Guess I just wasted my time interviewing there......

I'm at the U of Minnesota, and I am having some serious doubts as to whether you were at the interview in November?! Because this whole post is a whole lot of misinformation. So to answer you point by point (plus your most recent reply about Dr. McKenna which couldn't be more inaccurate):

1) Dr. McKenna is the director of hemepath and signs out one-on-one with med students and residents. You spend a LOT of time with him when you're on heme and he is one of the most approachable and nicest faculty members you could ever meet. On a related note - applicants should specifically ask if you as residents get to interact with the big name people when interviewing because it can certainly be the case that big names don't want to give residents the time of day. Not true at the U of M.

2) Residents leaving the program every year? An exaggeration. We had one resident recently switch to family practice but this had nothing to do with her unhappiness with our program, it was because she missed patient interaction.

3) Residents are not treated like ****. Residents are treated extremely well. I have trained throughout my career at many "big name" institutions where I was not treated as well. As a whole the faculty at the U of MN are extremely responsive to our concerns, and VERY approachable. I personally find it much easier to learn when working with nice people, who don't use put-downs and intimidation to teach, but maybe that's just me. Also - our hours are reasonable, the program is family friendly (you can take up to 6 months of maternity leave).

4) Residents are not unhappy and don't hate the program. We have a great, friendly and fun group of residents and they are one of the reasons I love our program. Also - not sure how you could possibly say the chiefs tried to prevent you from talking to other residents. We had other residents at the Friday night dinner, and you could choose to sit wherever you wanted (i.e. not next to the chiefs). Saturday there were many residents there and you had the choice to talk to anyone you wanted. So this statement is a bit ridiculous.

5) It is not a maligant program. While there is pimping, what I've experienced has always been with the goal of teaching, and never intended to make me look dumb or intimidate me. Quite frankly, if the med student who you spoke to thinks they are going to escape pimping at the scope at a quality program they are mistaken. I'm surprised to hear that a med student who rotated with us had a bad experience, because the vast majority of med students who come through have expressed a strong interest in our program (and many med students from the U of M end up staying at our path program because they like it so much). However, we have had a few med students who have done poorly (no initiative, leaving early, showing a general lack of interest, etc.), and perhaps this student you talked to didn't perform well and thus is choosing to blame our program instead of honestly assessing their performance? Who knows. Not everyone is going to like our program, and I respect that. But really, the whole of this post is completely untrue, so I respectfully disagree (as someone who actually knows, since I'm in the program =)).

If anyone else has any questions about the U of M you can PM me. Overall - the program has vastly improved over the last several years and it is a great place to learn. I have no regrets in choosing to train here. Also - many of our graduates have stayed on as faculty. Because they like it here! If it sucked they wouldn't stick around.

 

[deschutes]

I care, okay? But I'm not stupid. So here's the short version:

If you want to stay in Minnesota, want strong big-name surg path training and are willing to work WAAAY harder than you will work at UMN, then I would go to Mayo. I think med students often end up staying at UMN for residency because the hours are much more family-friendly (Mayo sounds like it has amazing support for family members though) or because the Twin Cities metro area is – to sufficient numbers of people who don't mind the winters – just so freaking awesome. (Srsly!) And then some go to Mayo for fellowship. In the grand scheme of things, UMN is a mid-tier program. Check out my previous posts on the subject.

The long version:

To the OP –

I know, I know, the Saturday mass interview. Recent change. We tried, but they said it was the best solution in terms of scheduling faculty from 4 different sites.

The surg path fellowship was one of the few (if any) remaining PGY-4 fellowships (internal residents basically forfeited a year's worth of elective months). It was cancelled for two reasons: After the last ACGME site visit, more mandatory rotations (e.g. derm and renal/EM if I'm not mistaken) were introduced, and time-wise it was no longer possible to cram in a fellowship "year". Also, the ACGME decided not to allow double-dipping any more i.e. calling a PGY-4 resident a fellow. So not really any legal action there.

The two residents who left during my time there, went into family med and internal med.

I think the med students don't necessarily get the best experience on surg path at the U – I don't know where the scheduling occurs in the medical school administration, but sometimes there are too many of them on at once and they mostly seemed not to be aware that they could do a rotation at HCMC (Hennepin County Med Ctr), which is much more hands-on. I usually recommend people go to the HCME for autopsy experience, and HCMC for surg path (usually includes some hospital autopsies).
EDIT: Or do hemepath. That's a good move if you want hands-on learning and if you want to get into the program.

Dr. Crosson interviewed me, retired the year I started, and came back on to help as program director because of Dr. Rose's illness. I believe he (Dr. Crosson) is still active within the CAP. He has good grasp of PP/community pathology – he "gets" the challenges affecting community pathologists more than any other pathologist of his seniority that I've met (the vast majority seem blissfully unaware).

As for "the program is not good in teaching", like I've said before, it's a mid-tier program. Comparing notes with a fellow at a different mid-tier program who graduated from UMN, I was told that UMN had spottier teaching, but more knowledgeable faculty.

I usually try to avoid subjective descriptors like "pimping". I can think of a few Socratic method-type senior faculty, which you will probably run into anywhere if you're into learning anything. The best way to handle these situations no matter where you end up, is simply to say something. Give the question your best shot, or say you don't know. I still use this. Prolonging the silence just makes it painful for everybody in the room, and makes you seem slow as opposed to thinking on your feet. Some may disagree saying 1st year residents don't know anything, but I counter by saying attendings' expectations of 1st year residents are pretty low in general.

Overall I felt my AP/CP training was adequate: I passed boards on my first try, I'm at a BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEG-Name medical center 😉 😛 doing a surg path fellowship (for which my Abbott-Northwestern private practice rotations most prepared me for – internally regarded for various reasons as the most difficult surg path rotation, which also motivates some residents to try to avoid it), and I have a subspecialty fellowship lined up for the following year without having to pick up my every freaking thing and move AGAIN. I think those things count.

Would I have done it again? Reviewing my rank-order list of 7 mid-tier programs, I think I made the right choice for me (I'm a plain-MD IMG).

I wasn't the best resident in my class though I was probably above average. (Lake Wobegon effect?). Of my class, the most savvy and hardworking AMG went straight out of AP/CP into a small group a few hours away from the Cities. Three are in fellowships, another two are off-cycle from babies. The 6-months maternity thing has to be seen to be believed. I think that is a pretty strong indicator of non-malignancy.

Of all the UMN fellowships, the strongest is hemepath because of Dr. McKenna and because UMN has traditionally had relatively strong CP training. So if you're dead-sure you want to do hemepath, going to UMN will give you a leg up in terms of getting that fellowship. Dr. McKenna instituted MUCH more hemepath scope conference and lecture time after he arrived from UTSW, so I am at a loss to explain why the resident(s) you spoke to would say they hardly see him, apart from that he recently inherited both the positions of director of hemepath, as well as I think hemepath fellowship director. When I did a lymph node elective rotation last January, he let me borrow his study set and see some of his personal consults. Rawr.

I think I came out of the program fairly competent in heme, cyto, GI, GU and Gyn, which are the areas I actually see myself practicing in. I paid attention during slide conferences. I made unknown conferences a priority, and complained when they were getting cancelled too often (that always makes you friends) – there's a more rigorous conference schedule now. I looked up cases after attendings signed them out to see how they actually worded the reports (tedious, but rewarding especially as you progress through residency). I published a paper and a half. Oh, and I learnt to ask. Ask questions, and ask for things.

It may be hard to see, but there are strengths.
(The four rotation sites that they talk about I simply regard as a neutral characteristic of the program – the advantages and disadvantages pretty much cancel each other out.)

Because of the fairly generous UMN book fund, I own more free books than any other fellow in my current program. I went to USCAP every year except for the year that I went to Paris (paid for up to $1500). There are some good support staff who will keep you out of trouble. There are plenty of resources for those who are motivated (you will have to make your own connections though – versus at some other mid-tier programs where faculty seem to put a great deal of effort into getting grads fellowships and jobs).

~
So there you have it.

If I put the time that I spent posting about UMN into writing papers, my name would be all over teh PubMed.

 

[umnpathresident]

As a senior resident at the U of MN Pathology Residency program I was sad and disturbed to see a recent posting by Duke10. I would say 95% of our residents are quite happy. I have been here 5+ years (did a PSF year) and I can tell you that faculty are receptive to resident feedback and have made changes accordingly since I started in 2005.

Definite strengths of our program - you see four (VAMC, Abbott, HCMC, Med Examiner, and U of MN) very different practices. By going to four different sites you see an adequate number of all specimen types and four different ways of signing out. You will have a good idea what type of practice you want to go into.

Despite four different locations, we have 5 hours of resident education that all AP/CP residents go to (unknown slide conference, lectures, journal clubs).

Another strength we have many well known pathologists- to name a few- Dr. Mckenna (heme), Dr. Batts (GI), Dr. Burgart (GI), Dr. Pambuccian (surg path/cyto), Dr. Baker (forensics)and many others amazing teaching faculty.

The surg path fellowship was briefly stopped as the ACGME required the program to accept non-residents - meaning graduates of a residency program. Back when pathology was 5 years instead of 4 years of training, the 5th year was used as a "fellowship" experience. The ACGME required the U of MN to take graduates only in 2009. Obviously that required a bit of an adjustment which took time adn the fellowship was briefly stopped. Now the fellowship is an ACGME accredited fellowship and we have two spots, not one. Please beware that other programs might offer a surg path fellowship but it may not be ACGME accredited.

I would not base my decision to rank the U of MN based on a medical student's perception during a surg path rotation at the U, which is our academic site that is more traditional in teaching. The medical students have a very limited experience on their rotation and do not go to the other 3 sites we rotate to, unless they specifically request time at HCMC.

Again, I am sorry to hear that you had a negative interview experience. I am glad that I have trained at the U of MN.

 

[Surling]

I'm at the U of Minnesota, and I am having some serious doubts as to whether you were at the interview in November?!

Truth

 

[KeratinPearls]

Funny how someone comes on here, bashes a program and is never heard from again.

 

[yaah]

Funny how someone comes on here, bashes a program and is never heard from again.

It's happened before. As always, people should take things that are posted on anonymous internet boards with a grain of salt. Consider the source, consider the motivation, things like that.