Inpatient psychiatry compensation- Encounter Model

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michaelrack

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Anyone familiar with this model of compensation- base salary that assumes a certain # of patient encounters plus a quarterly bonus for exceeding that # of encounters? (An encounter includes any type of patient visit, admisssion, f/u, consult, d/c, etc). What is the standard encounter rate??

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I'm not familiar with that payment model. It sounds interesting/bad to me, depending on how it plays out in real life. You are compensated the same for each encounter type. So, even though it takes much less time, a followup is the same as an admit, because each is considered an "encounter." This model incentivizes doing followups, which means keeping people in the hospital longer. An unscrupulous physician might purposely extend hospital stays, either through simply not recommending discharge until a later date, or perhaps even going slower with medication titration so the patient gets better less quickly. Additionally, a physician with all his scruples, and no manipulative intentions, might do these things subconsciously. On the flip side, I think our current system of ultra brief admissions (3 days for depression) is probably too short, so this might actually create a system with better patient care.
 
My contract is offering full-time as 2,200 WRVUs and then above productivity rate of 105%, $25/RVU, up to max 25k
 
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Anyone familiar with this model of compensation- base salary that assumes a certain # of patient encounters plus a quarterly bonus for exceeding that # of encounters? (An encounter includes any type of patient visit, admisssion, f/u, consult, d/c, etc). What is the standard encounter rate??
Unless it was spelled out specifically in the contract, it would be hard to keep a measure unless admin was using a weird RVU structure to encourage production.
 
My contract is offering full-time as 2,200 WRVUs and then above productivity rate of 105%, $25/RVU, up to max 25k
What is the base pay for 2,200 RVUs?
How does the productivity work? Above 2,200 you get $25 per RVU? So you can work another 1,000 RVU's get your $25,000? What if you work 5,000 RVUs each year? A salary without a production cap makes way more sense. It's not like the hopsital/clinic is capped on what it can bill. You shouldn't be capped if you are doing the work.
 
The base is 162k
Yes, above 2,200, it's written as $25/ RVU

Yes, the max bonus is 25k, regardless of total RVUs.
 
The base is 162k
Yes, above 2,200, it's written as $25/ RVU

Yes, the max bonus is 25k, regardless of total RVUs.

So you goal is to work between 2200 and 3200 RVUs otherwise you're working for free. I don't know why a hospital would do this to the doctor. It incentivizes the wrong things...namely, trying to avoid work once you hit 3200 RVUs.
 
I'm not familiar with that payment model. It sounds interesting/bad to me, depending on how it plays out in real life. You are compensated the same for each encounter type. So, even though it takes much less time, a followup is the same as an admit, because each is considered an "encounter." This model incentivizes doing followups, which means keeping people in the hospital longer. An unscrupulous physician might purposely extend hospital stays, either through simply not recommending discharge until a later date, or perhaps even going slower with medication titration so the patient gets better less quickly. Additionally, a physician with all his scruples, and no manipulative intentions, might do these things subconsciously. On the flip side, I think our current system of ultra brief admissions (3 days for depression) is probably too short, so this might actually create a system with better patient care.

I can see how one could game the system. I think its purpose is to incentivize the psychiatrist to be willing to carry a larger role (not refuse admissions above a certain cap). The hospitals I am negotiating with are open to a variety of payment schemes, as long as they meet fair market value criteria. ONe hospital has more beds currently than psychiatrists to staff them, so many are not currently in operation. If I was to "game the system", it would be by seeing more of the patients on weekends when I am on call (it is not required to see all of the patients at this hospital; there is midlevel help)- and one can easily argue that this is good for patient care.
I am currently interviewing at several hospitals with psych wards in MS and TN. I don't think the encounter model incentivizes more follow-up's, rather it incentivizes low level encounters (level 2 rather than 3, etc)
 
I think it incentivizes both low level encounters and followups. Whatever the shortest/easiest 'encounter' would be.
 
It is hard to keep insured patients beyond 3 days unless the county foots the bill for detained patients. It is easy to hit 3200 wrvus if you carry 12 beds. Most inpatient hospitals offer salaried positions unless metro area.
 
The base is 162k
Yes, above 2,200, it's written as $25/ RVU

Yes, the max bonus is 25k, regardless of total RVUs.

so your max salary is 187k? If that's a full time non academic inpatient job, that's not very good.

On a related note, things are trending in a rather bleak direction for private inpatient work. There are still plenty of places right now outside gov and academia where one can still make a decent living(either on salary or your own billing) working reasonable conditions/hours, but this is eroding. The number of truly 'open' priv units is decreasing, and that leaves two options left: salaried with a large hospital corp or groups that have acquired an exclusive contract through lowballing the hospital system. The first option is appealing in some ways for practitioners right now, but that's going to change as the HCAs and UHSs of the world get even more leverage.

the future is not a good one.
 
so your max salary is 187k? If that's a full time non academic inpatient job, that's not very good.

On a related note, things are trending in a rather bleak direction for private inpatient work. There are still plenty of places right now outside gov and academia where one can still make a decent living(either on salary or your own billing) working reasonable conditions/hours, but this is eroding. The number of truly 'open' priv units is decreasing, and that leaves two options left: salaried with a large hospital corp or groups that have acquired an exclusive contract through lowballing the hospital system. The first option is appealing in some ways for practitioners right now, but that's going to change as the HCAs and UHSs of the world get even more leverage.

the future is not a good one.
The future is not good in many specialties in medicine right now besides derm and surgical subspecialties and a few others.
 
so your max salary is 187k? If that's a full time non academic inpatient job, that's not very good.

On a related note, things are trending in a rather bleak direction for private inpatient work. There are still plenty of places right now outside gov and academia where one can still make a decent living(either on salary or your own billing) working reasonable conditions/hours, but this is eroding. The number of truly 'open' priv units is decreasing, and that leaves two options left: salaried with a large hospital corp or groups that have acquired an exclusive contract through lowballing the hospital system. The first option is appealing in some ways for practitioners right now, but that's going to change as the HCAs and UHSs of the world get even more leverage.

the future is not a good one.
on the flip side, 3300 RVUs per year is a part time job.
 
The future is not good in many specialties in medicine right now besides derm and surgical subspecialties and a few others.

I don't fully agree with this.....yes there are many problems(unique to each field), but the ones in psychiatry are much more severe from a provider standpoint.
 
on the flip side, 3300 RVUs per year is a part time job.

well if you work say...240 days, that would be almost 14 rvus per day. While I agree that's not being extremely productive, that's also more than what I would call a part time job either. Just because of the way I suspect the job is set up-The way he describes this job(a salaried position), he probably has a work schedule/flow associated with this job that makes it his real job.

What Im getting at is this is probably closer to his 'main job' than something he just fits in during the week alongside a main job.
 
I don't fully agree with this.....yes there are many problems(unique to each field), but the ones in psychiatry are much more severe from a provider standpoint.
You must hate yourself for picking psychiatry then. But for some reason I get the feeling that you wouldn't have matched into fields like ortho anyway.
 
You must hate yourself for picking psychiatry then. But for some reason I get the feeling that you wouldn't have matched into fields like ortho anyway.

no I wouldn't have, never said otherwise....I wouldn't have wanted to either.

I don't regret doing psychiatry at all. I wouldn't enjoy being a neurologist or whatever, and I don't think I'd be a very good one. One can lament certain aspects of a field(the compensation model going forward for example) and still be comfortable in their decision to do it.

What I see frequently here(and to be honest baller I really have no idea if you fit in this category or not) are med students who come on here having already made the decision to do psychiatry and then are asking for validation to assuage their concerns(or rather since they've already made the decision....for us to tell them that what they wish were different really is). It's like a couple going to a travel agent and debating between a golf vacation in south florida or phoenix. They pick South Florida, and then tell the travel agent "but I'm concerned about the humidity. Is that really a problem?". What they really are looking to hear is "no, won't notice it at all. In fact if you are close to the beach it really doesn't feel much different than the heat in Arizona". When a better answer is "heck yes it's going to be humid as hell. But all in all south florida is probably still better for you".
 
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What I see frequently here(and to be honest baller I really have no idea if you fit in this category or not) are med students who come on here having already made the decision to do psychiatry and then are asking for validation to assuage their concerns(or rather since they've already made the decision....for us to tell them that what they wish were different really is).
I think where you're hitting the resistance, V, isn't your point of view but the authority with which you speak it.

You're a few months out of residency but you seem to imply you have a lot more experience and insight than you have. You think the field is doomed. Check. Not an uncommon opinion, frankly. Medicine attracts the financially risk adverse and psychiatry even more so, so folks running around claiming that the sky is falling because the gravy train is slowing down is to be expected.

But these are opinions and best expressed with "I think" and entertaining opposing viewpoints. You get resistance from folks because your knee jerk reaction to someone who disagrees with your months-old perspective as a full-time professional in the field is "lmao."

So when folks disagree with you strongly, I don't think it's necessarily that your POV is so crazy, they're just dismissing the weight with which you give your own opinions. Hat >>> Cattle...
 
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I think where you're hitting the resistance, V, isn't your point of view but the authority with which you speak it.

You're a few months out of residency but you seem to imply you have a lot more experience and insight than you have. You think the field is doomed. Check. Not an uncommon opinion, frankly. Medicine attracts the financially risk adverse and psychiatry even more so, so folks running around claiming that the sky is falling because the gravy train is slowing down is to be expected.

But these are opinions and best expressed with "I think" and entertaining opposing viewpoints. You get resistance from folks because your knee jerk reaction to someone who disagrees with your months-old perspective as a full-time professional in the field is "lmao."

So when folks disagree with you strongly, I don't think it's necessarily that your POV is so crazy, they're just dismissing the weight with which you give your own opinions. Hat >>> Cattle...

several issues here notdead: I *always* explain why I feel a certain way regarding a compensation model/practice setting, and it's usually based on my experience working in that setting. I work in a few different settings now and have explored different compensation areas in those same settings for the last few years. Before finishing residency I worked in a number of different settings as a resident, always focusing on the compensation models there. Same thing for the job search(in those same settings) in different areas of the country. I don't think one needs 10 years of work in these settings to get a feel for how the $$ are passed around and how various system issues work.

Furthermore, this forum in case you didn't notice has a paucity of practitioners who have experience in the settings I typically report on. How many people here work for a large for profit hospital corp for example? We have some academic people, we have some govt people, we have some cash pay people. You'll note that I don't typically speak at length about compensation models on those things. I don't give my opinions on what the compensation model or future for that area holds(although they are all related in some ways). Because I don't know that. Sure I could comment on what Ive heard a VA somewhere pays, and that's what I'll occasionally do....but I don't go beyond that. I leave that to the people who actually work at the VA or some academic job. There are a few people that do work in practice settings more similar to what I suspect I do(fonzie with the per hour community psych work apart from his pp, Michael rack with various work in the past) and in general the experiences they report match up very closely with what I experience in these settings.

But essentially, do I feel I have more to offer speaking on a compensation model about setting x and y if I've worked in those settings than someone who hasn't? Of course. Even if they have been in practice for longer. And likewise someone who has worked at the VA(just to pick one example) for 8 years I'm going to defer to on a discussion involving what the pension is like at the VA....or what the hiring preferences are there.
 
several issues here notdead:
Summary: 9 months full-time work and lots of moonlighting. Check.

But don't limit yourself to voicing opinions to only your type of place of employment (nor have you: you've had strongly held opinions to every practice model brought up that I can see). In fact, you should feel to opine about the financial model of any particular set-up. None of us are accountants that I know of. You're welcome to toss out your opinions with everyone else.

But the keyword is opinion. Working at Kaiser for 6 months doesn't give you an iron-clad opinion on their financial future of HMOs anymore than working a year for the county gives you the lock on public psychiatry. You're just gazing at the tea leaves like everybody else.

You came to SDN and misrepresented yourself. If it was purely an ego trip, I suspected you would have burnt out by now. I may be giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I really think you want to have your opinions heard and taken seriously. That's more likely to happen if you give the impression that you actually listen to differing viewpoints and incorporate other ideas and conflicting data. When you just "lmao" anyone who disagrees, you position yourself as someone whose opinion likely doesn't hold much weight. Folks who can't tolerate dissenting opinions are right the same way a broken clock tells the right time twice a day.

Try tolerating alternative viewpoints. When you talk about things being one extreme or another and folks disagree, try dialogue rather than shouting them down. You'll find that folks will listen to your views rather than tolerate them. I have a hunch you'd like that.
 
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Summary: 9 months full-time work and lots of moonlighting. Check.

But don't limit yourself to voicing opinions to only your type of place of employment (nor have you: you've had strongly held opinions to every practice model brought up that I can see). In fact, you should feel to opine about the financial model of any particular set-up. None of us are accountants that I know of. You're welcome to toss out your opinions with everyone else.

But the keyword is opinion. Working at Kaiser for 6 months doesn't give you an iron-clad opinion on their financial future of HMOs anymore than working a year for the county gives you the lock on public psychiatry. You're just gazing at the tea leaves like everybody else.

You came to SDN and misrepresented yourself. If it was purely an ego trip, I suspected you would have burnt out by now. I may be giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I really think you want to have your opinions heard and taken seriously. That's more likely to happen if you give the impression that you actually listen to differing viewpoints and incorporate other ideas and conflicting data. When you just "lmao" anyone who disagrees, you position yourself as someone whose opinion likely doesn't hold much weight. Folks who can't tolerate dissenting opinions are right the same way a broken clock tells the right time twice a day.

Try tolerating alternative viewpoints. When you talk about things being one extreme or another and folks disagree, try dialogue rather than shouting them down. You'll find that folks will listen to your views rather than tolerate them. I have a hunch you'd like that.

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