Interesting case of a professor denied tenure

[futureapppsy2]

So, this is in political science, not psych, but I found it interesting as she actually posted all her tenure materials. external letters, and decision letters, as well as her previous review letter. Usually, all you get in these cases is hearsay, so it's interesting to see the actual documents. Library — "When one door closes ... "

Notes:
-R2 university, standard six-year track, with two years of "stopping the clock" child birth/maternity leave (so, 8 years total in rank).
-Had previously had tenure at an R1 but gave it up to go the R2.
-Total research outputs are one book, one textbook, two book chapters, two encyclopedia entries, and nine journal articles. Research materials at the current institution are one textbook, two encyclopedia entries, two book chapters, and two articles.
-Decision letters praise teaching and service but recommend tenure denial based on the lack of peer-reviewed publications in the current clock, and concerns over the quality of those publications/the outlet.

Tbh, my thought, is... yeah, if you wait until your last year in your tenure clock to have any peer-reviewed publications, you probably aren't going to get tenure at an R2. At the R2 where I did my PhD, I saw a professor denied tenure for having around 6 journal articles (limited funding success as well)--he had a big deal dissertation but couldn't develop a strong research agenda beyond that. I know someone from grad school who will be going up for tenure at an R1 with 5 articles (only one first author, and that's one in a predatory journal), one book chapter, and no external funding/limited internal funding, and I'm wondering how they will fare.

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[Sanman]

A bit off the main point, I just don't get the draw of academia at this point in time. It feels like there are an increasing number of hurdles for what feels like constantly diminishing returns on the part of universities.

 

[futureapppsy2]

A bit off the main point, I just don't get the draw of academia at this point in time. It feels like there are an increasing number of hurdles for what feels like constantly diminishing returns on the part of universities.

Eh, there are some perks--a ton of schedule flexibility, for one, and you really do get to shape your own research agenda. Going anywhere outside of R1, strong R2, or well-endowed LAC could be risky, though, and personally, I could never do the soft money only thing--been there, done that, and found it incredibly stressful.

 

[borne_before]

A bit off the main point, I just don't get the draw of academia at this point in time. It feels like there are an increasing number of hurdles for what feels like constantly diminishing returns on the part of universities.

Don't forget the ****ty salary and higher cost of living...

 

[Ollie123]

Can't speak for poli sci standards, but for psychology this simply wouldn't be a strong tenure dossier for exactly the reasons you state. Again, poli sci may be different but at research universities in psych, its pretty much common knowledge you don't write textbooks until after tenure. I think that is a shame as it is very valuable work, but this shouldn't exactly come as a surprise. By that stage, you should kinda know the rules of the game.

RE: Academia - I do see your point, but until I find another position with the job description "Have fun researching whatever you like" I think many people - including myself - are kinda stuck with it. As tough as academia may be, its vastly preferable to a full-time clinical role for me and many others. I'd go back to school before I'd do that long-term. If you have a very particular interest some industry gigs can work and there are a handful of other options (e.g. independent research institutes) that offer flexibility, but otherwise options are kind of limited.

Salary depends on a lot of factors in academia - including what level you play at - but its not necessarily as bad as many believe. If you are a newly minted assistant prof of psychology at a mid-tier SLAC? Yeah, you'll be lucky to make 60k. Full professor at an AMC? 200+ is normative. Even most junior faculty I know are making > 100 these days. Not incredible, but certainly not terrible.

 

[psych.meout]

well-endowed LAC

No one is going to take this one? Really?

 

[futureapppsy2]

No one is going to take this one? Really?

Heh. But seriously, look at endowments when evaluating jobs, especially at private universities!

 

[Justanothergrad]

A bit off the main point, I just don't get the draw of academia at this point in time. It feels like there are an increasing number of hurdles for what feels like constantly diminishing returns on the part of universities.

I mean, to be fair - what isn't an ever increasing set of hurdles?

It certainly depends on the setting for academia and so I'm not speaking for all of it here by any stretch, but I find it a pretty cushy and comfortable life. I have a flexible schedule with months off from the non-self directed activities (or entirely off if productive enough). I get to largely direct most of my own affairs and have room for plenty of side practice. The stability is a strong bonus and I have built in time for private practice during the week to increase the stable income to a much higher figure. Its certainly not for everyone and there are limits to academia, but I think the same reason that it was attractive 20 years ago is the same reason its attractive today. My income is also higher than many of my same stage peers at non-academic jobs.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I’m a fan of my academic lifestyle at a teaching-focused school.

 

[cara susanna]

Any idea why this person gave up the R1 tenure? Geographical location or something?

Also, given all of the discussion about the penalties women face for becoming mothers in academia, I wonder how much of her productivity was impacted by having children and childcare. Given that she was able to make tenure at (I assume) a more research-intensive department.

Edit: Reading her website, I see that she's now at another university and even in an administrative role there. Good for her.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

My understanding was that usually if someone left a position with tenure, that they usually had an 'easier' or 'abbreviated' tenure timeline at their new institution, especially if coming from something like a R1 to a R2?

I knew of a prof at my grad school who got tenure, and then 2 years later got a new job - he had to do some extra stuff since it was a more prestigious place, but it was still 2-4 years tops for him to get tenure at the new university.

 

[Sanman]

I mean, to be fair - what isn't an ever increasing set of hurdles?

It certainly depends on the setting for academia and so I'm not speaking for all of it here by any stretch, but I find it a pretty cushy and comfortable life. I have a flexible schedule with months off from the non-self directed activities (or entirely off if productive enough). I get to largely direct most of my own affairs and have room for plenty of side practice. The stability is a strong bonus and I have built in time for private practice during the week to increase the stable income to a much higher figure. Its certainly not for everyone and there are limits to academia, but I think the same reason that it was attractive 20 years ago is the same reason its attractive today. My income is also higher than many of my same stage peers at non-academic jobs.

Certainly there are the benefits of doing a job you enjoy and the academic lifestyle. That said, it is much more daunting now than in decades past and even the gold standard full professor at an R1 or R2 is only offering you the equivalent of VA salary money in some cases and for a lot more work than I put into my career. I actually looked up the salaries for professors the public R2 I graduated from and I make more than some of my old full profs already. I made more in my first licensed year than assistant and associate profs there.

The benefits of a side PP are really only for our little clinical niche and something non-academics can also do, so I am not going to look at side gigs. I am talking more of academia in general (given the topic was about a poli sci prof). A lot of my close friend group are academics (none of them in clinical psych) and I make more than all of them (in some cases, more than few combined). In general, I feel like the benefits need to be much greater given the work involved. Granted, while I love research, I hate publishing. Someone with a knack for knocking out pubs/ writing grants and who dislikes clinical work will feel different.

 

[cara susanna]

Certainly there are the benefits of doing a job you enjoy and the academic lifestyle. That said, it is much more daunting now than in decades past and even the gold standard full professor at an R1 or R2 is only offering you the equivalent of VA salary money in some cases and for a lot more work than I put into my career. I actually looked up the salaries for professors the public R2 I graduated from and I make more than some of my old full profs already. I made more in my first licensed year than assistant and associate profs there.

The benefits of a side PP are really only for our little clinical niche and something non-academics can also do, so I am not going to look at side gigs. I am talking more of academia in general (given the topic was about a poli sci prof). A lot of my close friend group are academics (none of them in clinical psych) and I make more than all of them (in some cases, more than few combined). In general, I feel like the benefits need to be much greater given the work involved. Granted, while I love research, I hate publishing. Someone with a knack for knocking out pubs/ writing grants and who dislikes clinical work will feel different.

I applied for VA clinical jobs at the same time I applied for academic jobs (had interviews for both). Ended up choosing the VA because of money, primarily.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Certainly there are the benefits of doing a job you enjoy and the academic lifestyle. That said, it is much more daunting now than in decades past and even the gold standard full professor at an R1 or R2 is only offering you the equivalent of VA salary money in some cases and for a lot more work than I put into my career. I actually looked up the salaries for professors the public R2 I graduated from and I make more than some of my old full profs already. I made more in my first licensed year than assistant and associate profs there.

The benefits of a side PP are really only for our little clinical niche and something non-academics can also do, so I am not going to look at side gigs. I am talking more of academia in general (given the topic was about a poli sci prof). A lot of my close friend group are academics (none of them in clinical psych) and I make more than all of them (in some cases, more than few combined). In general, I feel like the benefits need to be much greater given the work involved. Granted, while I love research, I hate publishing. Someone with a knack for knocking out pubs/ writing grants and who dislikes clinical work will feel different.

Yeh, it doesnt surprise me with R2 positions but it's a little funky as well since the 9 month salary may not translate into a totally comparable 12 month earning given summer funding opportunities. Not making it may also be a choice for the other benefits of the job like flexibility. I have friends at R2s that make substantially more through summer work, ignoring their side gig work. Still, I agree about the publication knack being key for the best return on the experience. Even ignoring my side gig, I make about the same as my VA peers if I work with summers (to make it comparable) or account for contract time. GS13, step 10 earns around 103kish for 12 months. Comparably, a 9 month contract of around 76.5k equals hour the hourly earning. All that said, the money certainly earns different for many.


I would also add that I know professors in other fields with side gigs (consulting on legal cases, political campaigns, etc).

 

[Ollie123]

Oh, it definitely is daunting. No argument there. And the pay is highly variable though again - it CAN pay pretty well. I'm 5-6 years out and just received an offer that would be well into GS-15 range on the VA scale (still as assistant prof). Which again....isn't amazing by any means, but certainly isn't bad. Admittedly, I'm certainly doing better than many in academia but suspect others in my cohort are making more based on what I know of their institutions.

Anyways, back on the original topic. I looked through some of the documents. A lot seems to focus on concerns that there was discrimination once she had children. That very well may be true, but her case is weak. I just can't see any situation in which she isn't a borderline tenure case at an R2. She had a 2-year tenure clock extension, which seems reasonable. There are absolutely challenges to being a working mother/parent. It stinks that things work that way, but that is a broader societal issue and not the responsible of an individual university to lower their bar.

 

[Sanman]

Yeh, it doesnt surprise me with R2 positions but it's a little funky as well since the 9 month salary may not translate into a totally comparable 12 month earning given summer funding opportunities. Not making it may also be a choice for the other benefits of the job like flexibility. I have friends at R2s that make substantially more through summer work, ignoring their side gig work. Still, I agree about the publication knack being key for the best return on the experience. Even ignoring my side gig, I make about the same as my VA peers if I work with summers (to make it comparable) or account for contract time. GS13, step 10 earns around 103kish for 12 months. Comparably, a 9 month contract of around 76.5k equals hour the hourly earning. All that said, the money certainly earns different for many.


I would also add that I know professors in other fields with side gigs (consulting on legal cases, political campaigns, etc).

Academia can be a little like a poorly paid sports career in this way. The best of the best can get really lucrative side gigs while those a rung or two below can struggle to be recognized. Yet, none of us make Tom Brady money.

 

[AlmostaPhD]

Just wanted to toss in my thoughts about being an academic (I'm at an R1 in a Clinical Psych PhD program). I'm pre-tenure so arguably in the worst phase of academia for someone who wants to be an academic (I get that grad school is the worst for folks who don't ). It's awesome most of the time.

I could make more money practicing in some capacity or at an AMC. I trained at an AMC where my boss made > 250k (soft money) and that part of academia is not for me. I also don't really want to practice at this point in my life (maybe post-tenure) except through research projects in which I sometimes do direct service. I do like supervising, which I get to do a lot.

Living in a college town (I was not picky about location and have a spouse with a flexible career/personality) where my salary alone got us a mortgage on a less than 10-year-old house with more bedrooms than we have people works just fine for us (especially during COVID). The AMC was in a city where what I pay now for my mortgage would get us a 2 BD apartment in a decent building. I also really can't overstate the value of having flexibility in how your spend your time and how you direct your work activities. Yeah, I have to teach what I teach when I'm supposed to, but for example today I have a single Zoom meeting with a student and otherwise am doing research, planning for my next class, and catching up on requests/emails (and SDN, apparently). Even if I wasn't WFH I could plan my week this way, where I get a flexible day to focus on what I want to. This is also really helpful for folks with young families who want to be able to be present at home during hours when kids are awake because you can schedule your classes in the mornings and then be home by 3 or whatever works for you. There is nothing I want to do more than direct my own research program, and I really enjoy mentoring students who share my interests and motivation. I can't imagine giving that part up.

Yeah, it's super hard to break into academia and I'm really lucky. I also can't remember the last time I went a whole day (weekends included) without cracking open my laptop for some work task. It's not for you if you don't have the intense internal drive needed to persevere for a long time with limited and unpredictable reinforcers, or if you value being able to clock out at 5 and not think about work. It's totally worth it for folks who really love what they study and who value the independence and flexibility, though.

Just speaking from my experience in the kind of position I am in. There are lots of types of positions and institutions that make up academia, so YMMV.