Internship sites requesting over 40 hour work weeks

[tchibur]

Hey everyone,

Soon I will be wrapping up my interview travels and as I started to make a list of pros and cons, I found myself really struggling with sites that required/not require but expect interns to work over 40 hours a week. Now don't get me wrong, I know that with some sites, interns will write reports at home after work and on the weekends, but it is not a nightly or weekly occurrence. At two of my interview sites, current interns told me they are generally working 55-60 hours a week!!!

Having a family, that really reduces the amount of time spent together. If I was single, this wouldn't really be an issue. Obviously I am grateful for any site that takes interns as it is truly for our benefit, but the lack of compensation, even in the little means possible, seems strange to me.

Anyone else struggling with this reality? And respectful comments and thoughts are welcome!

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[Rivi]

I agree with you 100%. 50+ hour work weeks as an intern indicates that you are being used as cheap labor. Talking to the current interns gives you the best picture of this. It sucks because you don't have a lot of room to be selective as an internship applicant, so you are kind of forced to go wherever you land.

 

[InNae]

You might ask the current interns how those 50 hours are allocated (i.e., how many officially scheduled for sessions, seminars, supervision, and how many "open" hours for report-writing, etc). During my internship some of the interns did not use their time efficiently (e.g., writing progress notes immediately at the end of a session, writing part of a report during a no-show slot), and/or took an unusually long time to write/revise reports. Some of the latter was due to a lack of experience writing reports quickly and efficiently and therefore a need for multiple revisions per the supervisors, and some seemed to be due to over-perfectionism.

Also, my internship was at a VA, and it was absolutely not acceptable to take clinical paperwork out of the VA, so we did all have the occasional heavy weeks (in the 50-60hr range) due to spending evening or weekend hours finishing reports. Those weeks were the exception, though, and usually only at the end of a rotation when we were also writing termination summaries and treatment plans.

My point is that not all 50 hour weeks are equal, so try to figure out what's actually happening. I agree that actually scheduled hours in the 50 range (including probably a too-large caseload and inadequate time for paperwork) are a big red flag.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You might ask the current interns how those 50 hours are allocated (i.e., how many officially scheduled for sessions, seminars, supervision, and how many "open" hours for report-writing, etc). During my internship some of the interns did not use their time efficiently (e.g., writing progress notes immediately at the end of a session, writing part of a report during a no-show slot), and/or took an unusually long time to write/revise reports. Some of the latter was due to a lack of experience writing reports quickly and efficiently and therefore a need for multiple revisions per the supervisors, and some seemed to be due to over-perfectionism.

Also, my internship was at a VA, and it was absolutely not acceptable to take clinical paperwork out of the VA, so we did all have the occasional heavy weeks (in the 50-60hr range) due to spending evening or weekend hours finishing reports. Those weeks were the exception, though, and usually only at the end of a rotation when we were also writing termination summaries and treatment plans.

My point is that not all 50 hour weeks are equal, so try to figure out what's actually happening. I agree that actually scheduled hours in the 50 range (including probably a too-large caseload and inadequate time for paperwork) are a big red flag.

Agree 100%. One person's 50-60 hour-week does not = another person's 50-60 hour week. Some folks are just flat-out bad at effectively managing their time. Also, some people choose to work that much in order to go above and beyond for side projects/work (e.g., research papers, program development opportunities, etc.). Although this of course isn't to say that there aren't some sites that do require 50+ hours/week to complete the assigned responsibilities, and I agree that these sites tend to come off as "report mill"/workhorse-type places. On the flip side, though, if you "just" stick to 40 hours a week, you have to realize that you're likely not going to get many of the extra things done that would garner you special notice. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's something folks need to understand. It's all just based on personal priorities.

 

[G Costanza]

One site applied to stated on their webpage that interns work 50+ hours.

I'm going into internship expecting to work 45-50 each week. It kind of bothers me that we should have to work more than 40. It's not like we are making any kind of real $. I can make the same working full time at a fast food place. We preach self care to clients but our employers/supervisors force us to be hypocrites.

That being said, I'm really excited for internship.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

One site applied to stated on their webpage that interns work 50+ hours.

I'm going into internship expecting to work 45-50 each week. It kind of bothers me that we should have to work more than 40. It's not like we are making any kind of real $. I can make the same working full time at a fast food place. We preach self care to clients but our employers/supervisors force us to be hypocrites.

That being said, I'm really excited for internship.

I personally didn't top 40 hours/week at any point that I can remember while on internship, so it's entirely possible to find places that don't work you to death. There was a month-long stint where I pulled multiple near-all-nighters and lots of weekend work, although that was for my dissertation rather than anything related to internship (note for all you intern applicants out there: please, please, PLEASE do everything you can to finish your dissertation before leaving for internship; it really does make the entire process much less stressful).

Although I stand by my above point that if you want to be involved in extra projects (particularly research), it's probably going to bump you past the 40-hour mark pretty quickly.

 

[Pragma]

You are less likely to work more than 40 hours if you get a government internship (VA, County or State, etc).

That said, I think a 40 hour work week is rare in a lot of fields. As an intern, you should expect to work hard. Same thing as a postdoc. The key is to be as efficient as you can if you want to avoid working really long hours, and that will generalize to other jobs you may have later. But to expect 40 is a bit unreasonable, IMO, until you have really learned efficiency and no longer have supervision, etc to worry about.

 

[Pragma]

I personally didn't top 40 hours/week at any point that I can remember while on internship, so it's entirely possible to find places that don't work you to death. There was a month-long stint where I pulled multiple near-all-nighters and lots of weekend work, although that was for my dissertation rather than anything related to internship (note for all you intern applicants out there: please, please, PLEASE do everything you can to finish your dissertation before leaving for internship; it really does make the entire process much less stressful).

Although I stand by my above point that if you want to be involved in extra projects (particularly research), it's probably going to bump you past the 40-hour mark pretty quickly.

Yes, this right here. If you are distracted with that, then that will make it harder to focus on your primary duties and complete them efficiently.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yes, this right here. If you are distracted with that, then that will make it harder to focus on your primary duties and complete them efficiently.

Yep. And it also may prevent you from being actively involved in any research at your internship site, as your supervisors are going to be wary of including you when they know you need to get your dissertation finished.

Edit: As for the 40-hour week, my personal take that it's not necessarily unreasonable to expect that your base responsibilities can be completed in that time. However, as I mentioned above a couple times, I do think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to stand out by only doing what's required of you. If you want to be a "superstar," it's going to take extra work.

 

[Pragma]

Yep. And it also may prevent you from being actively involved in any research at your internship site, as your supervisors are going to be wary of including you when they know you need to get your dissertation finished.

Edit: As for the 40-hour week, my personal take that it's not necessarily unreasonable to expect that your base responsibilities can be completed in that time. However, as I mentioned above a couple times, I do think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to stand out by only doing what's required of you. If you want to be a "superstar," it's going to take extra work.

AA, weren't you at VA sites for both internship and postdoc? It is a lot different at other places. There was a perception at my postdoc AMC that the nearby VA psychologists were government paper pushers. They always got in later in the morning and left by 4. I know it varies from place to place, but the VA is not representative of other training sites. Even the faculty at my AMC expected to work 50-60 hours per week.

 

[erg923]

AA, weren't you at VA sites for both internship and postdoc? It is a lot different at other places. There was a perception at my postdoc AMC that the nearby VA psychologists were government paper pushers. They always got in later in the morning and left by 4. I know it varies from place to place, but the VA is not representative of other training sites. Even the faculty at my AMC expected to work 50-60 hours per week.

how does working 2 hours less per day transform someone into a paper pusher? lol

 

[Pragma]

how does working 2 hous less per day transform someone into a paper pusher? lol

Hey, just repeating what I heard from psychologists at multiple R1 AMCs. Some have even described the VA system as archaic. I think the VA seems like a pretty sweet deal, which is why some people on this board act like it is the holy grail for psychologists. Now, I know all VAs aren't created equally, but one must admit that the perception of a lower standard of care does exist in some places. How biased that perception is would be another matter

 

[erg923]

"The system" as in our infrastructure (CPRS, some facilities, etc)? In that case I agree.

Otherwise, I think it has become quite a well oiled machine in most areas of patient care within the past 10-15 years. I really think the psychologists and many other physicans are top notch. Psychiatrists, I am not so impressed with, but in general it is a VERY patient oriented system that serves uo good care and balances the demand as best it can. I do my work and I go home. Plenty of time for other side gigs or, in my case simply exloring other intersts and being with my family.

 

[Pragma]

I've only gotten a glimpse of a handful of VAs. But what I have heard consistently from trainees and psychologists at them is that there are just too many cases and it is difficult to dedicate enough time to properly handle cases. Neuropsych evals had to be shorter and more fixed battery. Locally, it is pretty commonplace for VAs to contract out patients to other providers.

As a training site, I think some VAs are phenomenal because, since they are backed by the feds, they can afford to focus more on training than volume. I was impressed at a couple of VAs I interviewed at in that sense. I personally have nothing against the system. I just have heard folks in non-government jobs gripe a bit.

 

[Pragma]

double post

 

[IT514]

As has been said on other threads, work/life balance is a personal thing. The key is to know your own boundaries, communicate them, and dont go places that dont respect that. Unfortunately, with the internship cluster f, you might feel forced to get into something that doesnt fit your values. How you handle that is up to you. Personally, I avoided places with >50 hour weeks, and yes I matched to a VA and rarely worked over 40 hours. My primary supervisor was a research workhorse and put in about 55 hours or so, but during the interview and from word of mouth I trusted that he was a very good guy to work with who frankly didnt care how many hours I put in as long as I got the work done, and the workload was out on the table, so I knew within reason what to expect.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

As a training site, I think some VAs are phenomenal because, since they are backed by the feds, they can afford to focus more on training than volume. I was impressed at a couple of VAs I interviewed at in that sense. I personally have nothing against the system. I just have heard folks in non-government jobs gripe a bit.

This is exactly why I was very happy w/ landing at a VA for internship....I received excellent mentorship in a very supportive environment. I regularly put in 45-50hr/wk, but that was by my own choice....mostly supplemental readings and extra NPs and C&Ps bc I wanted to be as competitive as possible for fellowship. Our DCT strongly encouraged us to take all of our leave and sick time (for illness or simply mental health days), and training came before any productivity concerns.

Fellowship at an R1 AMC was an entirely different ball game. We started at 55hr-60hr/wk and went up from there depending on the workload. I'm thankful for both experiences, though they were vastly different.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

AA, weren't you at VA sites for both internship and postdoc? It is a lot different at other places. There was a perception at my postdoc AMC that the nearby VA psychologists were government paper pushers. They always got in later in the morning and left by 4. I know it varies from place to place, but the VA is not representative of other training sites. Even the faculty at my AMC expected to work 50-60 hours per week.

Yep (well, internship was a consortium), and wasn't meaning to imply that VAs are at all representative of other settings (particularly AMCs), just that the VA's training paradigm meshes well with many of my personal views on how things "should" work.

As for the caseload, as you've said, I'd imagine that's going to vary substantially from VA to VA. I've only worked in two VAs, but neither gave me the impression that patients were being hurried through or that providers were overworked, nor did I ever feel rushed in having to evaluate my patients (neuropsych or otherwise). Quite the opposite, actually--most clinicians with whom I worked (mainly psychologists and physicians) regularly went the extra mile for folks they were treating.

AMCs are definitely by a large a higher-pressure environment. I consistently felt more rushed in that respect during my AMC rotations than my VA ones, and my AMC supervisors regularly worked 60+ hours per week.

 

[erg923]

I agree that some of that seems quite backwards. AMCs are the ones that have to worry about billing, insurance company preauths and limits, and losing money on certain patients, so it seeem THAT would be the place where patient time gets cut. With the VA being ao laid back and not havinbg to worry about the aforementioned issues, I have never seen patients rushed at all. Again, I see the opposite.....patient centered approach going a little too far so that vets are being seen for years (in some cases) by outpatient mental health providers.

 

[Pragma]

Must vary from place to place. Some fellow students I was with always complained about only having limited time to assess patients because VA protocols constrained their ability to test patients for longer. I'm sure that isn't the case everywhere.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I think this is a very personal decision and definitely something to consider if it's important to you. I've interviewed at VAs and AMCs and was surprised to see them all ask for about a 40-50 hour workweek. I was even more surprised and pleased that the places that said they were closer to 50 were at least being honest with it, and their interns corroborated this. It's important to consider what's been said (how efficient are you at writing notes? do you plan on doing research that might add more hours? are you in neuropsych, which involves a lot of report writing?) In the end, there's nothing wrong with not being willing to work 60+ hours a week if that's not where you're at.

 

[WisNeuro]

I've only gotten a glimpse of a handful of VAs. But what I have heard consistently from trainees and psychologists at them is that there are just too many cases and it is difficult to dedicate enough time to properly handle cases. Neuropsych evals had to be shorter and more fixed battery. Locally, it is pretty commonplace for VAs to contract out patients to other providers.

As a training site, I think some VAs are phenomenal because, since they are backed by the feds, they can afford to focus more on training than volume. I was impressed at a couple of VAs I interviewed at in that sense. I personally have nothing against the system. I just have heard folks in non-government jobs gripe a bit.

As someone who did internship and postdoc at different VA's, not my experience. We were never held to a fixed battery, and I've always had whatever time I needed to test. Granted, most referral questions can be answered with less than 4 hours of testing. although we have done pre-surgical epilepsy evals that take an entire day. And, in therapy rotations and such, I've never been in a time crunch. Maybe what you describe happens at some VA's, but I've never seen it. If anything, I have much more time with patients than I ever did in AMC's.

 

[Pragma]

As someone who did internship and postdoc at different VA's, not my experience. We were never held to a fixed battery, and I've always had whatever time I needed to test. Granted, most referral questions can be answered with less than 4 hours of testing. although we have done pre-surgical epilepsy evals that take an entire day. And, in therapy rotations and such, I've never been in a time crunch. Maybe what you describe happens at some VA's, but I've never seen it. If anything, I have much more time with patients than I ever did in AMC's.

Interesting, such a dramatic departure from what mutliple VA folks have told me. I guess it is fair to assume that there is high variability from setting to setting. Having trained at predominantly AMCs, I don't have a personal basis for comparison, only anecdotes from friends in the VA system, specifically at a couple of VAs.

 

[IceBoxWoman]

I'm definitely in the same boat as the OP about one site. I applied there thinking that it was going to be a favorite, but through talking to some (honest) current interns, I learned that most interns work a 50-60 hour work week. I also wondered if it was something to do with efficiency, which is why I spoke with multiple sources who all said the same thing. I think some sites are more reliant on intern labor to function while other sites are not.

 

[docma]

I'm definitely in the same boat as the OP about one site. I applied there thinking that it was going to be a favorite, but through talking to some (honest) current interns, I learned that most interns work a 50-60 hour work week. I also wondered if it was something to do with efficiency, which is why I spoke with multiple sources who all said the same thing. I think some sites are more reliant on intern labor to function while other sites are not.

Some sites definitely have administrative pressure toward "productivity" in order to keep the program financially viable and therefore supported from above; other systems not so much, as admin supports training for other reasons (but also often don't have resources for higher stipends.) Real-world trade-offs. Probably important to also keep in mind that professional work hours once licensed often will be 50-60 hours/per week, at least in the early phases, so acclimating to that on internship is not ideal but may be realistic. One of the trade-offs of doing work you love is that it doesn't confine itself to 40 hours per week.

 

[erg923]

With regards to real-world work, the above attitude should be balanced with how exactly your employer bases/establishes your pay/salary. For example, my salary is based on the understanding of a 40-hour work week. Well, if they, in reality, give me work that takes 50 hours, then they are knowing getting 10 hours of free work from you. In reality, that salary should be higher. Employees who do work 60 hours when there is a written agreement/expectation that there rate of pay is based on a typical 40 hour work week are doing a disservice to themselves and to the profession as a whole, I believe. Working for free should be on my terms, no one else's....

 

[docma]

With regards to real-world work, the above attitude should be balanced with how exactly your employer bases/establishes your pay/salary. For example, my salary is based on the understanding of a 40-hour work week. Well, if they, in reality, give me work that takes 50 hours, then they are knowing getting 10 hours of free work from you. In reality, that salary should be higher. Employees who do work 60 hours when there is a written agreement/expectation that there rate of pay is based on a typical 40 hour work week are doing a disservice to themselves and to the profession as a whole, I believe. Working for free should be on my terms, no one else's....

Wages are hourly pay; salary is based on fulfilling your job description; sometimes doing the job well doesn't allow quitting at a set hour, at least in this field. It therefore is a challenge in professional development to decide how to organize and divide your time and what your limits are and how to live within them. We set limits on hours accrued in internships, etc., so that students aren't exploited (doesn't mean they aren't). Once you are out and licensed how you set the limits is a personal/professional responsiblity.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

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