Is there anyone in the forum applying for neurointerventional fellowship this year? Let me know so we can exchange impressions of programs and discuss interview process if you're interested. You can PM me if you want.
Thanks for your post. The anonymous idea is great.For all the talk about NIR every year, it seems like there isn't really a lot of information exchange on this forum. I don't know if it's because people don't actually follow through, or if they're nervous about writing reviews because it is such a small world and they fear retribution.
I'm more than willing to help post reviews. Please feel free to PM me with any program information and I will post it anonymously.
Thanks for your post. The anonymous idea is great.
Could you comment on the whole application/interview process? When should we be expecting to hear back from programs? When do programs usually interview? How many candidates for each spot are invited for interview? There's so little information out there. Thanks.
I'm not trolling I'm just looking for genuine answersThe radiologists are the experts in catheter work and imaging, and from my experience, are the most proficient at performing these procedures.
Do you think being in a clinic doing full neuro exams and trying to pinpoint the lesion prepares neurologists to do any kind of interventional work?not sure how doing cranis and spines really prepares you for catheter jockeying
MS3 genuinely interested in neurointervention, but I'm more leaning towards radiology because as you said,
I'm not trolling I'm just looking for genuine answers
Do you think being in a clinic doing full neuro exams and trying to pinpoint the lesion prepares neurologists to do any kind of interventional work?
I know that when it comes to reading neuro imaging studies it goes radiologist>>>neurosurgeon>>>>>>>>>neurologist. Imaging interpretation skills are mediocre at best and they do no procedures during residency. So the two fundamentals of intervention are missing in the training of a neurologist. So how can neurologists even compete with neuroradiologists and neurosurgeons?
Wow. Okay, a lot of things to point out here but I'll comment on a couple of them.
I don't know if you have rotated through neurology yet but it's a lot more than doing exams in the clinic and localizing the problem. In an emergent situation, a decent neurological exam can not only diagnose and localize the pathology, but also help you order the correct testing. Moreover, it can also help you interpret the test result (imaging or otherwise), by "clinically correlating". Further, when you follow these patients on the floor or in the icu, a change in exam is what guides you to change your management.
In terms of NIR, unfortunately there's a human being and not just a clot that you are treating. There's no question that radiologists play with catheters more than neurologists do. The etiology, presentation, pharmacological management and prevention are all best taken care of by neurologists. So in that way, it does make sense for a neurologist to be trained in NIR.
Finally, while Neuro radiologists overall read images better than neurologists (with some exceptions as expected), the sequential order of expertise that you have stated is misleading at best. All my stroke attendings have no problems reading and interpreting MRs and CTs, far better than "mediocre" I assure you.
You're more than welcome to pick radiology and that's your choice but you would do well to understand what other services bring to the table.
My two cents.
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Totally disagree with you on that one. If non-rads physicians' skills where not mediocre, radiology as a speciality would cease to exist. Hospital administrators worldwide and organisations like Medicare in Australia or the NHS in England would love it since radiologists are perceived to be overpaid.the sequential order of expertise that you have stated is misleading at best. All my stroke attendings have no problems reading and interpreting MRs and CTs, far better than "mediocre" I assure you.
Not applying for intervention this year (probably in the next 1-2 years - this academic year will be NCC match for me). Don't think there are a lot of people on here in the field, and if they are, probably too busy to post.
From talking to fellows, still a very competitive environment for neurologists. Lots of politics in neurosurgery-based departments on training neurologists (meaning you probably won't get a spot - they seem to try and shut us out, reduce training times for themselves (read infolded fellowships), and there is talk of them pushing for separation tactics, meaning that they give us the strokes and they take the rest of the cases). Radiology departments are a bit warmer towards neurologists, but depends on where you are applying. Seems to be a new rise in interest in the field, even amongst radiologists, given positive trials in stroke and the push for minimally invasive therapies.
Still, we do have some people in powerful positions, and programs like UCLA, MCW, UMN, UTSW, Texas Stroke Institute, Iowa, UPMC, NYU, Mt. Sinai, Boston University, U Mass, JFK, UMDNJ, Miami (getting harder to get in), and Miami Vascular continue to recruit neurologists for training.
Some of us love the field and can't imagine doing anything else, but for others, it might not be worth all the politics and attempted throttling from neurosurgery. In all honesty, if neurologists became more aggressive, we could probably take the field for ourselves, but the longer we wait, the more difficult it becomes as it gets saturated by the surgeons and their "technical proficiency"... not sure how doing cranis and spines really prepares you for catheter jockeying.
In my humble opinion, look towards going to a well established, radiology-run department w/ a neurology presence. The radiologists are the experts in catheter work and imaging, and from my experience, are the most proficient at performing these procedures. With a strong knowledge of vascular physiology and neurointensive care, a vascular/NCC neurologist is extremely well poised to be a more complete neurointerventionalist.
Well, in our institution the NIR procedures are mostly done by Neurology trained Interventionists with 20% by one NES trained. They are not done by the Radiology people. They used to do it, but for every acute stroke they(NES and Rads) had to call the Stroke team in as well to make final decision on eligibility, do pre and post management. So what was the point in engaging 2 teams when a stroke- IR person can manage the patient from beginning to end.
The only reason neurology hasn't taken up this field more than they should be is because most people who come to neurology come for a different patient population and career style. Not all of course.
Cool. Yes our NIR radiologists are the ones who make the decision whether or not to do endovascular therapy. I am a little confused about post procedure at your institution because an interventionalist is better off spending there time in the angio lab than following the patient to the ICU outside of the acute periprocedural setting. We follow our stroke patients for 2 days usually and give recs to the neuro icu in regards to the acute stroke and intervention. We leave the rest of the stuff (diet, electrolytes, diabetess therapy) to the ICU team because it would not be worth our time to do that as we are so busy in the lab and there are people who dedicate their careers to taking care of patients in the icu.
Stroke neurology is called for the code stroke and the imaging is obviously interpreted by radiology with the decision made by the interventional radiologist. Stroke neuro calls IR if there is a large vessel occlusion otherwise we don't hear about strokes which would be a definite annoyance. Stroke neuro pushes IV tpa if candidate, otherwise the rest of the hyperacute stroke diagnosis and treatment is done by radiology.
Thats great that Radiologists are seeing/managing the patients at ur institution. But do u solely manage a stroke patient without having the stroke/NCC team being on board at all?Probably not. If yes, then thats amazing but also extremely rare. Also the fact that Stroke physicians are required to see every patient and fulfill all the Core measures for Stroke certification of the Center. And in our institute the Interventionists are on call 1 week at a time, when they do acutes and electives and in the other weeks they staff the stroke and Neuro ICU and do their elective cases in the mornings.
While I disagree with Kazaki in the assumption that Neurologists are not as prepared to be interventionalists I do share some of his/her sentiment. I think neurologists can be trained to be excellent interventionalists and I definitely disagree about the neuroimaging comparison. At least in our institution we almost never ever looked or even cared about the radiologist report. The only time we took it seriously is if the report was from one particular neuro radiologist at our hospital who is an OG and one of the smartest neuro radiologists around. But if you want my 2 cents and want to skip the rant thats about to come if you're serious about wanting to do interventional then just go via radiology. That being said, I'm an interventional pain fellow and everyone told me to go via Anesthesiology and or PM&R but I'm the type of person where I cant study something or put my full effort in something if I don't find it interesting so I went via neurology and everything has turned out fine.
I remember during residency (awesome feeling to say that and have residency in the past btw) I would become frustrated with the stroke service because often times the ED is performing a neuroexam, pretty much made up their mind about tpa/intervention or not, calling the interventionalist who is either radiologist or NeuroSx and then they would go to either our stroke unit or neuroICU. I sometimes felt like we as neurology residents were there merely for formality and the decision was pretty much already made or was very obvious. I almost felt our greatest role was to see who had real symptoms and who had non physiologic. I also remember the ED docs were always pushing tPA even if I felt like it was a stroke mimic and didn't require it. Now I know tPA is expensive but the ED docs would always site this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875935/ and decide to push it anyways. And to be frank in regards to imaging it wasn't very complicated....get a vascular study asap if you even slightly suspect a large vessel thrombus at all.
For example: I'd get a page from the ED, NIHSS from ED is like 15 or 20, or its something very obvious like aphasia and right hemiplegia.....without even seeing patient I'd tell the ED to order a CT and CT Angio STAT. I definitely remember a few instances where the ED would just get in touch with the neurointerventionalist and they would take the patient straight to the cath lab to save time and to perform a both diagnostic/therapeutic cath. I really felt useless and frustrated in these situations.
And then to further add to my fustration, I remember when the patients would be up in the stroke unit or downgraded from the NeuroICU we were just planning discharge work essentially and or rehab. Then when I would speak with my PM&R friends at other institutions they would offer all this insight and expertise in regards to post stroke patients.
I think stroke represents how neurologists have let other fields really encroach into our profession and take control. I'm not saying neurologists dont play a key role but I think there are so many players in stroke/interventional that the role of the neurologist has really suffered. I never understood why neurolgists didn't lead the charge in performing the interventional procedures kind like like interventional cardiologists. To be frank it sort of turned me off from pursuing vascular neurology as I increasingly felt like a middleman and just a formality in acute stroke care. Thats why to my junior residents I always encouraged them to pursue a fellowship or skillset that was procedure heavy or unique to neurologists such as EEG, Movement, etc.
Maybe other people's institutions are different but this is what I felt and experienced.
While I agree with many of the things said above, in my general experience, and taking into account the way the turf battle is playing out, if you are set on doing endovascular, take the neurosurgery route.
I stand by my observation that radiologists have the most proficiency in catheter work, but they do not control patient referrals. Neurosurgeons get the most referrals for these cases - AVMs, aneurysms, AVFs, tumors, etc. Neurologists get referred strokes, stents. I guess you could argue the brunt of the procedures are diagnostic angios - but most referrals for these studies are coming from the surgeon or the neurologist anyway...