interview commandments

[doctorFred]

since there are a lot of do's and don'ts for interviewees out there.. this was compiled anonymously, with input from several people "on the trail." feel free to add your own!

1. thou shalt not dump interviewees in lecture/conference. when you do this, it makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

2. thou shalt not ask interviewees to come in prior to 8am.

3. double bonus points: thou DEFINITELY shalt not have interviewees come in prior to 8am for the express purposes of dumping them in lecture/conference.

4. thou shalt feed the applicants at least one full meal, plus snacks and coffee.

5. thou shalt not conduct tours that last longer than one hour. thou shalt especially not conduct tours that last two and a half hours, particularly at the end of a very long day.

6. thou shalt host some kind of social the night before. even if the program doesn't have the budget, the attendings shalt band together and pony up 50 bucks before each interview for some beers and appetizers. this is the future of your program -- every little gesture makes a difference!

7. thou shalt limit asking applicants if they "have any other questions" to an absolute maximum of 750 times. after that, i cannot possibly have any other questions.

8. thou shalt not sit quietly and read my file while we're in the middle of the interview. while we're on the subject, reading my entire personal statement out loud, word for word, is just a tiny bit over the top.

9. honor thy common sense (do not make the following claims): 13 hour shifts aren't that bad, paper charting is better, floor months are an important aspect of your EM training, wheeling your own patients to CT builds character, a fourth year of residency "isn't a big deal", and a division of emergency medicine is just as good as a department.

10. thou shalt remember that the things you do and say to the applicants on interview day are likely to represent the things you'll do and say to them as residents for the next few years.. so make the experience as pleasant and positive as humanly possible!

11. thou shalt not bring your interviewees onto the helipad in 40 mph gusts with a temp in the teens.

12. a free hotel (or even discounted room) mean i will accept your interview invitation even if i'm not really considering the program, and i may be surprised with what i find.

13. thou shalt not serve beef goulash, garlic pasta, or anything heavy on the onions to your interviewees.

14. thou shalt not promise the interviewees a morning shuttle and then not deliver on said promise nor make alternate arrangements or inform anyone that said shuttle will not actually be there in the morning.

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[Kris1]

7. thou shalt limit asking applicants if they "have any other questions" to an absolute maximum of 750 times. after that, i cannot possibly have any other questions.

Oh gosh yeah!!!!

 

[Tiger26]

Oh gosh yeah!!!!

That or the "so tell me about yourself" question is just killin' my motivation during interviews.

My internal answers are:
1) "I found out everything and more I wanted to know about your program the night before with the residents. Either they were cool or they weren't, but regardless they spilled their guts anyway"

2) "The only thing I'd really like to tell you about myself is that I have a short attention span, hate talking about my accomplishments because that's not the type of person I am, however, my biggest weakness is that I don't currently have the balls to say 'just read my f-ing file if you want to learn everything about me!!!!!'"

 

[Tiger26]

Oh, you can also add to the list:

Thou shall not leave the applicants alone in a room to watch a video your residents created about the program in lieu of the program director actually sitting down and talking with us for a little while. Seriously, how would you like to spend the next 3 years of you life at a place that just says "umm . . . you could probably just pop in the DVD if you have any questions--otherwise, I'll be in my office . . . "

 

[It'sElectric]

8. thou shalt not sit quietly and read my file while we're in the middle of the interview. while we're on the subject, reading my entire personal statement out loud, word for word, is just a tiny bit over the top.

9. honor thy common sense (do not make the following claims): 13 hour shifts aren't that bad, paper charting is better, floor months are an important aspect of your EM training, wheeling your own patients to CT builds character, a fourth year of residency "isn't a big deal", and a division of emergency medicine is just as good as a department.

Other than the obligatory "what questions do you have for me", these 2 bug me more than any other. There is no interviewer worse than the one that silently thumbs through your app right in front of you (facial expressions and all)...

 

[Hercules]

8. thou shalt not sit quietly and read my file while we're in the middle of the interview. while we're on the subject, reading my entire personal statement out loud, word for word, is just a tiny bit over the top

Glad to hear that still happens to other people. I hated those interviews as an applicant. As for the "what questions do you have for me?" You know that one is coming so I just add three stock questions that sounded philosophical and well thought out and repeated them at each interview.

 

[CIMER]

That or the "so tell me about yourself" question is just killin' my motivation during interviews.

I can deal with that question- talk about family or whatever...it's when the interview starts off with: "so what can I tell you about the program.."that's when I know that it's going to be a long 20 minutes.

 

[Pure Anergy]

Great list.

But you left out the most important commandment:

16) Thou shalt not EVER ask me what other programs I am applying to, interviewing at, or ranking. Thou shouldest assume that since I have spent much of mine valuable time and money to be here, in spite of thee making me come in before 8 AM to sit in conference/lecture, and in spite of thee death marching me all over thine hospital, that I really am interested in thine program.

And another pet peeve of mine:

17) Thou shalt not speak ill of thine own program, nor of other programs, nor of any resident, faculty, or other applicants in mine presence. It dost greatly pain me to see a drive-by backstabbing of another person on mine interview day, for I knowest thou may speak ill of me as well.

 

[BADMD]

floor months are an important aspect of your EM training

Floor months are an important part of your Emergency Medicine training. There is a noticeable difference in the ability of EM residency who have done medicine floor months versus those who don't. Same thing with inpatient surgery months.

 

[roja]

Floor months are an important part of your Emergency Medicine training. There is a noticeable difference in the ability of EM residency who have done medicine floor months versus those who don't. Same thing with inpatient surgery months.

Completely disagree.

 

[Apollyon]

Floor months are an important part of your Emergency Medicine training. There is a noticeable difference in the ability of EM residency who have done medicine floor months versus those who don't. Same thing with inpatient surgery months.

Completely disagree.

Fellowship-trained EM attendings fight!

 

[KYTNOH]

Floor months are an important part of your Emergency Medicine training. There is a noticeable difference in the ability of EM residency who have done medicine floor months versus those who don't. Same thing with inpatient surgery months.

I agree. Prior to residency I was of the opinion that medicine wasn't important. Now that I have done a month of medicine I believe it is important. The same thing can be said of all my off-service rotations so far. I've found that Emergency Medicine is less of its own distinct specialty and more of a compilation of all the other specialties out there with an acute care twist.

 

[deleted109597]

Floor months are an important part of your Emergency Medicine training. There is a noticeable difference in the ability of EM residency who have done medicine floor months versus those who don't. Same thing with inpatient surgery months.

It made a huge difference for me. Instead of apologizing when I called for an admission I simply told the resident to get off their dead ass and do their job and stop spending an hour fighting off a 30 minute admission.
But other than that, all it made me good at was getting durable medical supply companies to send forms to my program coordinator for me to sign off on.

 

[Hamhock]

Floor months are an important part of your Emergency Medicine training. There is a noticeable difference in the ability of EM residency who have done medicine floor months versus those who don't. Same thing with inpatient surgery months.

I also disagree, but not as much as Roja's "completely".

By that I mean, there is a difference between EM residents who have done 4-5 medicine floor months and EM residents without any...most EM/IM residents handle semi-acute stuff with a "more complete" understanding of most disease processes [In general] vs. EM residents in the same PGY year. Of course, EM residents without that time lost on the floors mature as EM docs overall more quickly. [Again, this is just a generalization/my opinon/observations - no need to flame away...actually, please do - it'll make interesting discussion]

However, there is very little to be gained from ONE floor month...certainly not enough to counter the pain, scut, and lost opportunities of an ICU or ED month...especially in a three-year program.

HH

 

[docB]

Thou shalt not skim through my file, ask me two questions then drop my file on the desk and say "Nah, a guy like you is never gonna want to come to a place like this." I took a flight, rented a car, drove 3 hours, rented a motel room and dressed up for this. I was really interested up until 1 minute ago.

 

[Hercules]

Great list.

But you left out the most important commandment:

16) Thou shalt not EVER ask me what other programs I am applying to, interviewing at, or ranking. Thou shouldest assume that since I have spent much of mine valuable time and money to be here, in spite of thee making me come in before 8 AM to sit in conference/lecture, and in spite of thee death marching me all over thine hospital, that I really am interested in thine program.

I never minded that question, especially from a resident. Most of the residents that interviewed me had interviewed not too long ago themselves. Some were pretty helpful at comparing and contrasting their own program with some of the other ones I had more experience with. I thought that was pretty helpful.

 

[howelljolly]

Thou shalt not skim through my file, ask me two questions then drop my file on the desk and say "Nah, a guy like you is never gonna want to come to a place like this." I took a flight, rented a car, drove 3 hours, rented a motel room and dressed up for this. I was really interested up until 1 minute ago.

Grrr... that happened to me today.

 

[lucky_deadman]

Completely disagree.

Ditto.

 

[lucky_deadman]

But other than that, all it made me good at was getting durable medical supply companies to send forms to my program coordinator for me to sign off on.

Pretty much what I learned as well.

It made a huge difference for me. Instead of apologizing when I called for an admission I simply told the resident to get off their dead ass and do their job and stop spending an hour fighting off a 30 minute admission.

I haven't quite told them this but it's coming as my time left in residency is shrinking quickly.

 

[SoCuteMD]

It made a huge difference for me. Instead of apologizing when I called for an admission I simply told the resident to get off their dead ass and do their job and stop spending an hour fighting off a 30 minute admission.
But other than that, all it made me good at was getting durable medical supply companies to send forms to my program coordinator for me to sign off on.

I guess it depends on where you do residency. I've done very little placement/obtaining durable medical equipment, etc. All I have to do is find the right person and let them know that x patient is likely going to be ready for d/c within a day or two and that pretty much does it. I didn't even have to call and make my own follow-up appointments, either. There was someone who did that for me as long as I remembered to tell them the day before d/c or so.

I actually think my medicine month was valuable in relationship-building between the IM and EM folks and perspective on what can and can't be done for patients we admit and how long it takes to get done. My program has no lack of ICU months, either, so I don't feel that I would be better served by another unit month in place of my medicine month.

 

[howelljolly]

I guess it depends on where you do residency. I've done very little placement/obtaining durable medical equipment, etc. All I have to do is find the right person and let them know that x patient is likely going to be ready for d/c within a day or two and that pretty much does it. I didn't even have to call and make my own follow-up appointments, either. There was someone who did that for me as long as I remembered to tell them the day before d/c or so.

I actually think my medicine month was valuable in relationship-building between the IM and EM folks and perspective on what can and can't be done for patients we admit and how long it takes to get done. My program has no lack of ICU months, either, so I don't feel that I would be better served by another unit month in place of my medicine month.

This is a good thing to pick up.

 

[doctorFred]

i agree to an extent re: floor months, but as has been mentioned above, in 3 year residencies those months are less expendable. and i still certainly wouldn't call them essential or invaluable, even if they are moderately useful.

 

[december07]

Thou Shalt not say "Wow... you didn't rotate with us? That's not good"

 

[doctorFred]

Thou Shalt not say "Wow... you didn't rotate with us? That's not good"

 

[SoCuteMD]

i agree to an extent re: floor months, but as has been mentioned above, in 3 year residencies those months are less expendable. and i still certainly wouldn't call them essential or invaluable, even if they are moderately useful.

Eh, I still disagree. The relationships you form ARE invaluable, and my unit months have been so busy that although I am friendly with my co-interns from those months - the days were just too crazy to allow friendships to blossom. My fellow residents, interns from medicine and the fellows from the consulting services have become dear friends, though. So, when I call GI with something mildly stupid that STILL needs to get done, I'm not calling "GI," I'm calling Mike from GI who helped me take care of that really sick liver patient a couple months ago. It helps get s--- done.

 

[BADMD]

Completely disagree.

I'm sure the quality of the medicine experience is going to be heavily dependent on how the medicine program treats their interns. If they are used as glorified medical secretaries whose job is generate notes, push paper and report results to the attendings, then the month is likely wasted. Night float often exacerbates this problem as the intern doesn't take a thorough history and have to puzzle through what additional diagnostics to order.

If the intern actually admits the patients and follows them through the hospital course, they get an extremely valuable perspective. The intern gets to see what goes on beyond the initial presentation and see the results of what they have actually done. That is the ideal, of course, and I'm sure no program has that amount of perfection. The perspective is still quite useful and the experience gained makes a person a better doctor. It is a perspective that is often missed in the sign out/shift work specialty that we have. It also helps if the medicine attendings aren't consult freaks whose workup consists of calling someone else for every organ system the patient has left.

Personally I found my medicine months extremely useful. I think most EPs are better with a floor medicine (and floor surgery) experience, then without (assuming it isn't pure scut).

 

[Pure Anergy]

I never minded that question, especially from a resident. Most of the residents that interviewed me had interviewed not too long ago themselves. Some were pretty helpful at comparing and contrasting their own program with some of the other ones I had more experience with. I thought that was pretty helpful.

Really? Being asked that question immediately puts me on my guard. I'm always grateful to hear a resident talk about what made them choose their program, and I don't mind discussing what kind of things I'm looking for in a residency. People have given me really valuable insight about what their program has to offer based on my interests. But I didn't come to interview at Program X so that I could discuss Programs Y and Z with my interviewers. It takes away time that I would rather spend learning about their program, and it makes me uncomfortable. If that's some people's way of making conversation, I wish they would stick to the weather.

 

[deleted65604]

Thou shouldest assume that since I have spent much of mine valuable time and money to be here, in spite of thee making me come in before 8 AM to sit in conference/lecture, and in spite of thee death marching me all over thine hospital, that I really am interested in thine program.

THE most awkward moment of my interview experience was when this schmuck of an attending started off the interview with saying, "I see you're married, did you bring your wife?" I said, "No, she's 8 months pregnant." He said, with a lot of condescension, "My wife was pregnant when I went on interviews. I knew how to deliver a baby."

I didn't know what to say. I think his point was that since I was from really far away, that I probably didn't have a huge reason to go there.

Things I wish I could have said were:
1. You are a jerk
2. If flying 3 thousand miles, just to attend this interview doesn't speak to how much I want to come here, then I don't know what does.
3. You have no idea how much this interview cost me on my non-existent budget. Because of having a family, I really didn't consider california schools as an option due to budget and unwillingness to have my family live in the places that have residencies there (at least in the places you can afford on a resident salary). Living in Las Vegas, one year before they started a residency, this decision meant I had to apply very widely from a geographic standpoint. The Arizona programs, Denver, and Oregon gave me the thumbs down, that left New Mexico and Utah that I got interviews at. I ended up flying all over the US, from Lousiana to Michigan, to New York. I spent a fortune compared to most US applicants.

As it was, I just sat there in stunned silence thinking... this isn't going well. There was a lot of other things that I read into, that conspired to convince me that I WAS NOT welcome there. For example, my schedule said that I would be interviewed by 4 people. One of my interviewers decided she didn't want to interview me. I saw her in the conference that was going on at the same time as our interviews and she was obviously available.

It ended up being ironic. That interaction was the deciding factor in switching up 9-10 spots on my rank list, whereas I know I would have put their program up one spot had it been a pleasant interview. (I matched at number 9 and would have gone to their program had I not had a bad experience)

Then, they send me this letter when they didn't fill, saying, "We were interested in you, but you weren't interested in us. Why was that?"

What a bunch of ******s.

 

[KYTNOH]

\
But other than that, all it made me good at was getting durable medical supply companies to send forms to my program coordinator for me to sign off on.

Maybe this is why I have a more positive memory of my medicine month. We had two discharge planners (one RN and one social worker) that planned EVERYTHING. They would coordinate home oxygen, Lovenox coupons, LTAC/Acute rehab placement, home health, and countless other things. They would even fill out all the paperwork for FMLA and financial assistance. When it came time to schedule follow up appts we would simply put "f/u 2-3 weeks with CXR and CBC" and it would get done.

Plus we had a pharmacist on every team that would dose and watch levels of abx, coumadin, and anti-epileptics. Very nice.

 

[roja]

Somewhat sidetracked from the original thread:


I think statements that 'doctors who do floor medicine are better than those that don't' is a bold tenet. It is inaccurate, educationally unsound and generally has no real truth to the statement. NO rotation guarantees that a resident will come out better. As I have stated before, the point of residency is to create opportunities that increase the liklihood that residents will learn and be exposed to the things that will make a good emergency physician. What this is will vary from learner to learner, based around a core base of knowledge (emergency medicine, determined by the RRC. These are criterion standards created by the field) To insinuate that by default, all graduates of programs that have no floor months are inadequately trained is a huge leap... and the reverse, that all graduates of floor month programs are competent is also faulty.

However, there are educational pros and cons that can be discussed around floor months. As Socute and others point out, learning the systems component can be valuable (although this will change when you change your practice environment). There is also important interpersonal bonding that can happen. However, this may not be necessary. Some places already have solid relationships between medicine, surgery etc that don't require 'bonding' and many residents will already have a good understanding of what the 'otherside' experiences. In truth, ANY rotation has educational potential that can make us better physicians. Neuro-optho, optho, ENT, peds onc, gyn onc, CT surgery, vascular surgery, rheum, derm, rads... the list could go on and on. There is no field that doesn't at some point touch us in the ED. But the reality is that CORE EM material has to be learned and at some point we have to start practicing. Each learner has to assess what is important to them, weigh the type of learner they are, what skills they feel need over others and make a decision. That is why the 'there is no perfect program or top program' discussion happens over and over again.

In essence, for learners, ward months have potential to be benificial. But they are not necessary to become a well trained physician, and they in no way gaurantee that a resident is better trained.

 

[doctorFred]

2. If flying 3 thousand miles, just to attend this interview doesn't speak to how much I want to come here, then I don't know what does.

so true. it's not like i'm here just because i have nothing better to do today. the suspicious "you don't want to come to our program" attitude is so self-defeating, ultimately.

also, let me add that i'm on the admissions committee for the medical school here, and on more than one occasion i've interviewed applicants whom i suspected thought that this was their safety school -- even so, you have a chance to make them think twice.

i've already interviewed at one program this year that i assumed i'd be ranking in the bottom third of my list, only to significantly change my plans after the interview. and it helped that they didn't throw a pity party while i was there, or assume that i wasn't interested.

 

[Pure Anergy]

THE most awkward moment of my interview experience was when this schmuck of an attending started off the interview with saying, "I see you're married, did you bring your wife?" I said, "No, she's 8 months pregnant." He said, with a lot of condescension, "My wife was pregnant when I went on interviews. I knew how to deliver a baby."

I didn't know what to say. I think his point was that since I was from really far away, that I probably didn't have a huge reason to go there.

That really is stupid. I would have felt the same way and done the same thing you did.

So far I haven't had anything quite that bad happen, but I'm mostly only applying locally. I've lived in this state my entire life and all my family is here too. Even so, I still run into some people who seem to be questioning my seriousness, or wanting to talk about other programs. Then I sit there and think: Hmm, does this person want to gauge my interest? Convince me that their program is the best? Prove to themselves that I'm not really interested? Exchange pleasantries? Reminisce about their own time on the interview trail? Make my head explode trying to figure out what they're getting at? I think it's probably the last one.

Well, at least I know that if I ever end up interviewing applicants some day, I will do my best to not make any of them feel like I do, and especially not like you did.

 

[Seville]

8. thou shalt not sit quietly and read my file while we're in the middle of the interview. while we're on the subject, reading my entire personal statement out loud, word for word, is just a tiny bit over the top.

I can't even begin to express how disappointed and frankly, annoyed, I was when I was told by an interviewer, "you know, I just didn't have the time to get around to reading your file. Why don't you just tell me about yourself instead." This automatically knocked the program down a few notches for me. I drove 11 hours to get to that place, was exhausted but made it to the social the night before, researched the heck out of the program before hand so I could ask program specific questions, and yet you can't bother to even thumb through my file?

11. thou shalt not bring your interviewees onto the helipad in 40 mph gusts with a temp in the teens.

The helipad thing happened several times-and it was in the teens, snowing, and with gale force winds! I felt like my sinuses froze instantaneously. Plus, as we were all on the tour, we didn't have coats on other than our suits. Brrr. Why do they do this? A helipad is a helipad, people!

13. thou shalt not serve beef goulash, garlic pasta, or anything heavy on the onions to your interviewees.

Adding barbeque chicken wings to this. Seriously? We had this at one of my interviews and still had interviews in the afternoon.

I'd like to add that it would be nice (and most places were great about this but at least 3 or 4 places, not so much) to have some sort of vegetarian option. I was especially surprised to have one place ask if we had any dietary restrictions, only to arrive and be served beef and chicken satay.

 

[monkeybutt]

-Thou shalt not call me by the wrong name nor ask me questions regarding information from someone else's file.

-If thou art a PD, thou shalt not spend a significant portion of your talk which is supposed to be an introduction to the program talking about your accomplishments and your background and the interesting mountains you've climbed.

 

[MSmentor018]

thou shall allow the rotating med student to have the interview while he/she is there so the said economically strapped student does not have to f!@#ing fly back and pay for a hotel a month later

 

[SeanCC]

Thou shalt not make the interviewees pay for their own dinner the night before the interview, especially without prior notice!

 

[WilcoWorld]

The balance of this thread seems to have tipped from reasonable gripes/good suggestions to unbecoming whining. I have officially lost interest.

 

[peppy]

Thou shalt not make the interviewees pay for their own dinner the night before the interview, especially without prior notice!

Did that really happen to you? I agree that it is really poor form for a program to not even warn people that they'll be expected to pay. Some of the smaller/poorer places I interviewed at didn't have dinner events at all, and I think that's much better than expecting applicants to pay for the dinner.

 

[SeanCC]

Yes, that really did happen to me. The program shall remain nameless... Good thing i didn't order the steak....

 

[MSmentor018]

Yes, that really did happen to me. The program shall remain nameless... Good thing i didn't order the steak....

now that you said that....it happened to me too. had to buy my own coffee for morning conference, lunch and parking. I can see paying for a hotel but at least validate my parking at the hospital! this is the only time in your life a program will try to woo you to come aboard. I can't imagine what's next.....pay to sit in at lecture?

 

[deleted109597]

Places that make you pay on interview day likely make you pay for parking during residency too. Just an FYI.

 

[MSmentor018]

Places that make you pay on interview day likely make you pay for parking during residency too. Just an FYI.

this place does, $60/mo! this is the highest I've seen in parking. but then it did cost me $12 that day, it wasn't valet or covered. does it get higher? the residents said it comes out of their check before so they pretend it doesn't even exist. hospital gotta make their money somehow.....

 

[NeuroSync]

this place does, $60/mo! this is the highest I've seen in parking. but then it did cost me $12 that day, it wasn't valet or covered. does it get higher? the residents said it comes out of their check before so they pretend it doesn't even exist. hospital gotta make their money somehow.....

We pay $40/year...

 

[SoCuteMD]

We pay, but it's subsidized to about half the sticker price for us. Our salaries are generous for the geographic area, and about half the people walk to work anyways.

 

[pdp2001]

hells no to the floor medicine, unless it's ICU. invaluable experience managing a floor and doing procedures without much backup (eg fellows and seniors who have done less lines/intubations/chest tubes, etc. than you). i will say the one plus of the off-service rotations is that it proves to everyone in the hospital that we're efficient, smart, fun, and can get **** done. build your bridges, people, because sometimes that's the only reason your patients get the go for admission.