Introduction of myself and question about my plan

[danielfaraday]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently two years out of graduating from a top 20 university with a degree in mathematics and economics. I wasn't premed in college and wasn't really interested in it until recently.

I graduated summa cum laude w/ a 3.9+ GPA (suffice to say, I studied a lot), and took some science courses while I was an engineering major for a year and a half (took 1 semester of physics, 1 year of general chemistry, a whole lot of math, a year of english/writing) and got A's in them.

I'm thinking about learning more about going into medicine. I've worked in investment banking for a year (specifically, mergers and acquisitions, but hated it) and in economic research for a year. I'll be going into a PhD program next year. However, my experience in economic research has led me to question whether it's really for me; while I find economics interesting, I often question whether I'm really making any difference in the world. I like science, I'm interested in health issues, and I like interacting with people.

What can I do in the short-term to learn more about medicine? Can I find shadowing opportunities while I'm doing my PHD?

Given that I am now two years out of college, should I look into official post-bacc programs or just try to take organic chemistry, biology, and possibly biochemistry?

I'm pretty good at taking tests, so I'm hoping that I can do well in the MCAT. Will my PhD grades matter (PhD courses are often graded fairly weirdly, since grades don't actually matter for the purposes of the PhD.)? Will my undergrad GPA still help me if I apply?

I have economic research experience, but no medical or bio lab experience and mediocre extracurricular experience. Will I probably need some lab experience before I apply?

I'm not quite sure what my plan is, as I may or may not finish my PhD. I've heard that you have to finish a graduate degree before matriculating. Is that true? Can I drop out? Does it matter that it is not exactly medicine related (though I may actually study health economics)?

Thanks all for your help! I know I asked a million questions, but I'm eager to learn. I also posted a similar thread on oldpremeds.

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[TriagePreMed]

You will probably not be admitted to medical school unless you finish your Ph.D first. You should reconsider going into it if you really want to go into medicine.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Welcome. Let me tackle the questions that I can answer (and hopefully other people will chime in).

First, your GPA is excellent and if you can maintain that with the last of your pre-reqs, that's going to be awesome. It'll do you well.

Second, I worked in an investment firm (though not in M&A) and know the feeling of making money, but not making a difference. I also know how it can suck the life out of you so I sympathize with you.

Third, let me tackle your questions below.

What can I do in the short-term to learn more about medicine? Can I find shadowing opportunities while I'm doing my PHD?
I think the best exposure is to volunteer at a hospital. Often times while volunteering you'll meet doctors and can ask to shadow them (tell them you are considering medical school and would love to spend a day with them). There are many strategies to find shadowing opportunities so do a few searches on here. I find it easiest to work of a volunteering gig personally.

Given that I am now two years out of college, should I look into official post-bacc programs or just try to take organic chemistry, biology, and possibly biochemistry?
In your case I would not recommend an official post-bac. You are pretty close to done with the requirements. Just informally take biology, organic chemistry and biochemistry. That should prepare you for the MCAT.

I'm pretty good at taking tests, so I'm hoping that I can do well in the MCAT. Will my PhD grades matter (PhD courses are often graded fairly weirdly, since grades don't actually matter for the purposes of the PhD.)? Will my undergrad GPA still help me if I apply?
The main focus when you are applying is your undergraduate GPA. Your GPA is awesome. However, note that a lot of adcoms expect very high GPAs out of graduate students in their graduate programs (so while it won't be the main focus, you will still have to do very well).

I have economic research experience, but no medical or bio lab experience and mediocre extracurricular experience. Will I probably need some lab experience before I apply?
You definitely don't need lab experience (except for MD/PhD programs). There typical activities you need are volunteering, shadowing and ideally research (this can be clinical or even non-medical, though clinical research is probably ideal). Look through accepted students on mdapps and get a sense of their activities. I think it'll take a solid year to build a good activities profile (and show commitment).

I'm not quite sure what my plan is, as I may or may not finish my PhD. I've heard that you have to finish a graduate degree before matriculating. Is that true? Can I drop out? Does it matter that it is not exactly medicine related (though I may actually study health economics)?
If you start, you have to finish. It's possible to get in to med school if you drop-out, but you then come across as immature and undecided. Will you just start and drop-out of medical school too? My advice is that if you start, then finish. If you don't plan to, then don't start.

 

[danielfaraday]

Thanks for your advice. I agree that leaving the PhD w/ nothing in hand would not be looked at well. I have heard of people leaving the degree after a few years with master's degrees; do you think that would be more acceptable, to leave with a master's in economics (or even an MBA, which is obtainable in my program) after 1-3 years?

 

[Petypet]

I am/was in your position, except that I committed to finishing the PhD. Whatever you do, do not leave without a degree. Should you leave with a masters, no one except yourself, will question the degree; however, if you leave with no degree it will be a pretty large red flag. Typically, not always so you should check, but a masters degree in some types of programs, are a "thanks for coming" type deal. You need to make sure that you can transition from the PhD to masters, safely and quickly, without burning bridges. The reason I am sticking to the PhD, is just because "what if". What if I don't matriculate in a certain time frame, I still have a very viable degree to enter the work force with. In regards to graduation, you need to talk to your adviser to get a projected date. Med schools won't let you matriculate without a confirmation that you will graduate, so don't apply while you are at the beginning of your program. That said, if you are in a PhD program, you may be able to take your pre-reqs free, during the last few years of your PhD. With your grades, and only needing to take a few classes, that seems like a good solution.

As far as grades are concerned, they will look at the GPA, probably if and only if, they are poor. Most grad programs, grades are slightly irrelevant, so doing amazingly well will not benefit you, but doing very poorly might. The undergrads will be the foundation for your admission, not your grad gpa.

For gaining experience, visit all your hospital websites in your area, and all should have a volunteer page. Call/schedule a time to meet and volunteer 1 day a week. Shadowing, find 40 physicians in the area, email or snail mail them all, shadow 4 or 5 that respond. This is what I did, and it seems like it is working out well for me. If you buy the AMCAS book you can see the percentages of people that have volunteer/clinical/research work. Most average schools have maybe 80%'s across the board, meaning 80% of the students volunteer/etc. It isn't necessary but it helps.

I think being an math PhD, you may need a little more "experience" but since you are at least 2 years out of graduating, that is completely doable. The PhD won't get you in, but it will help, just need to buffer the rest of the application.


Hope this helps

 

[Dr. Saturn]

I'm not quite sure what my plan is, as I may or may not finish my PhD. I've heard that you have to finish a graduate degree before matriculating. Is that true? Can I drop out? Does it matter that it is not exactly medicine related (though I may actually study health economics)?

Thanks all for your help! I know I asked a million questions, but I'm eager to learn. I also posted a similar thread on oldpremeds.

This may be a dead thread but I thought I would post what I know anyway. I was a PhD student quite a while ago and left with my MA (not finishing my PhD). AMCAS lists your graduate grades separately. I don't know what the school I am applying to will do with them. So, your undergraduate grades and any post-bac grades are lumped together.

I would ask the pre-med advisor at your school about the finishing/not finishing question. It was not ever seen as a big deal in my case. I had a good reason (I got pregnant with twins and couldn't afford day care). It seems to me if you don't want to be in that field you would be wasting your time. Wouldn't it show maturity to realize that? I don't know, I would ask though. It seems a shame to waste time on something you don't want to do.

You definitely want to sell yourself to explain the shift though. For me the time was so long ago that it is more of an "evolution."

 

[danielfaraday]

May I ask what PhD program you were pursuing? Can you also elaborate on your "evolution"?

Also, does it really matter whether or not you leave with a PHD or a Masters, as long as you leave with some sort of degree?

 

[Dr. Saturn]

May I ask what PhD program you were pursuing? Can you also elaborate on your "evolution"?

Also, does it really matter whether or not you leave with a PHD or a Masters, as long as you leave with some sort of degree?

I was pursuing a PhD in English at the University of Michigan. I got pregnant with twins. My husband was finishing his PhD in engineering at the University of Illinois. He had a lab. I was the logical one to move. We had no money. I was the logical one to not finish. He now has a very nice job at Intel and out-earns anything I could have done. I wish I had been able to finish, but it was just too difficult. I do have my MA.

I never loved being a stay at home mom, but what do you do with an MA in English? So, when they were 12 and a little more self-sufficient I decided to try the med. school pre-reqs. I had wanted to be a doctor in high school, but I had these fabulous English teachers, and the rest was history.

When I say evolution, I mean that it isn't illogical for someone to have different interests at 40 than at 23. It doesn't smack of indecision or flip flopping or anything, and I have a pretty good reason.

If I were you, I would just make sure you have a good reason. My husband interviews for Intel all the time. He wants enthusiasm and commitment out of a candidate. So, sell it. "I was doing math and I love the problem solving aspects of math. But I am a people person, and I realized I wanted something that combined my passions. In medicine I can solve problems and help people as I do it. Medicine is a broader field. Working on a PhD is about narrow focus. I want to do it all."

OK, so that might suck, but you get the idea. Make it 100% positive. No regrets. No compromise. Brilliant master plan.

And I think absolutely, leave with the MA. You went in not sure after all (right??? haha). You decided no. So, you get the MA and go for medicine.

Most programs run that way anyway, don't they? You kind of get the masters en route to the PhD, and if you decide to leave, that is a logical place.

Best of luck, and let me know if you have any other questions about my experience.

 

[Petypet]

Leaving with a masters is perfectly acceptable. In most cases, no one will know that you "left" a PhD program, as a large chunk of PhD potentials end up getting a masters first, or terminate with a masters. I know a lot of science/math based programs kind of use the masters degree as a stepping stone, and thus the masters is one way to exit the program. Regardless, the only reason someone will know that you left the program is if you deliberately bring it up. I can imagine someone only asking, what in your master's program made you decide to change to medicine?

 

[danielfaraday]

I just found out that there is unfortunately no terminal MA for my PhD program, but there is a possibility to get an MBA...Do medical schools distinguish between the MBA and MA, or would that MBA raise a red flag?

 

[Dr. Saturn]

I just found out that there is unfortunately no terminal MA for my PhD program, but there is a possibility to get an MBA...Do medical schools distinguish between the MBA and MA, or would that MBA raise a red flag?

I cannot imagine why on earth they would object to any graduate degree. Doesn't it just say you aren't 20 and you are educated and diverse?

 

[danielfaraday]

Thanks all for the help. I guess a little update is in store:

I have finished the first half of my year or so in my Phd program. It has been a very demanding program and though I have enjoyed my time, I still feel like I need to explore medicine as a career.

I have unfortunately had no time this year to do anything outside of class work (the first year is the toughest). My grad school GPA is at around a 3.5 and I expect by the end of this year that it will be between 3.3 and 3.7. To what extent would this matter for med school admissions, especially since my undergrad GPA was much higher, and considering that the program is pretty tough?

Also, I haven't had any time to shadow or volunteer. I am hoping that I can have 1 or 2 shadow experiences by the end of the academic year. How informative are shadowing experiences? Will they dramatically change my desires and expectations to become a doctor? Would you consider it worthwhile to participate in a volunteer activity, since I don't really have much time at the moment?

I am still not sure if I should continue with the PhD (which would be another 3 or 4 years) or leave early with an MBA. I know that people have responded that in the eyes of an admissions director, it doesn't matter. Do you think I could go for the MBA but spend a little more time in school to take premed classes, or just get the MBA and then take classes?

A few additional questions:

1. Does it matter that I didn't have that many extracurricular activities in college? I had one or two that were important, but other than that, I primarily focused on studying and doing more econ/finance research.

2. For those of you who have had experience finishing up a graduate degree while applying to medical school, were you able to take premed classes, and was it difficult to do while finishing up your other degree?

3. Finally, any idea of what chances I have at a US MD program?

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

I have unfortunately had no time this year to do anything outside of class work (the first year is the toughest). My grad school GPA is at around a 3.5 and I expect by the end of this year that it will be between 3.3 and 3.7. To what extent would this matter for med school admissions, especially since my undergrad GPA was much higher, and considering that the program is pretty tough?

Grad school GPA is hotly debated around here. I don't think anyone can say for certain what effect it has on your chances, but if you stay above 3.5 you have nothing to worry about in any case.

Also, I haven't had any time to shadow or volunteer. I am hoping that I can have 1 or 2 shadow experiences by the end of the academic year. How informative are shadowing experiences? Will they dramatically change my desires and expectations to become a doctor? Would you consider it worthwhile to participate in a volunteer activity, since I don't really have much time at the moment?

Yes, shadow physicians. Unless you have spent an inordinate amount of time dealing with your own personal medical needs, most of what you know about medicine right now is probably a cross of "Scrubs" and "Grey's Anatomy." Shadowing is the only free step to getting into medical school, so do it before you do any others.

Shadowing a doc for one day is fine, but for a good letter (and plenty of stories to tell at your interviews) I recommend you find a physician who'll let you shadow them once a week for several months... maybe for three hours in the afternoon or something like that (not all day!). Especially in primary care, if you do this for 4+ months you'll see some of the same patients over time and get to know them a little. You'll learn a lot.

I am still not sure if I should continue with the PhD (which would be another 3 or 4 years) or leave early with an MBA. I know that people have responded that in the eyes of an admissions director, it doesn't matter. Do you think I could go for the MBA but spend a little more time in school to take premed classes, or just get the MBA and then take classes?

Do some shadowing first, then if you still want to go to medical school keep your eyes on the prize. A PhD is going to count for very little in terms of admissions OR your career after med school, unless you really want to do health economics (but you don't need an MD for that). So don't do the PhD!! As long as you can get out without burning bridges. This includes the bridges that will get you a letter of rec from someone important in your department.

Spending an extra 4 years getting a PhD will cost you $600,000-$1,000,000 (or more) in potential earnings as a physician. You may think you don't care about the money, but unless you have a big account with the Bank of Dad you're going to come out of med school in big debt and those 4 years getting a PhD will really cost you.

1. Does it matter that I didn't have that many extracurricular activities in college? I had one or two that were important, but other than that, I primarily focused on studying and doing more econ/finance research.

It doesn't matter that you didn't have many EC's in college. I think I only listed one from undergrad on my application.

2. For those of you who have had experience finishing up a graduate degree while applying to medical school, were you able to take premed classes, and was it difficult to do while finishing up your other degree?

I got my PhD in neuroscience, but I had sweet-talked my way in without having hardly any of the normal med school pre-reqs completed, which are also normally also required for graduate school in biology, but with more flexibility.

I knew I wanted to got to medical school 2.5 years into my PhD, but had virtually all of the pre-reqs left to complete. I spent 55-65+ hours a week doing grad school stuff, and took night classes at the local state college on top of that.

Not to stoke my own ego, but I managed to be one of the top students in my PhD class (awards, publications, etc.) while also topping the other pre-meds in my ochem classes, etc. It was very difficult, but I'm sure it also looked impressive on my application.

Don't try to do both grad school and undergrad stuff unless you can excel at both. But if you can do both and kick butt, then it will look even better!

3. Finally, any idea of what chances I have at a US MD program?

Not until you've taken the MCAT!

If you get < 30 then your chances aren't great. Get 30-32 and your chances are good. Get 33+ and your chances are excellent. (Assuming the other pieces of the pre-med puzzle are in place... shadowing, volunteer, etc.)

Unfortunately, it's very hard to predict what you'll get on the MCAT. With an undergrad 3.9 GPA the best guess is that you're headed for 30-32, but there's a lot of variability. I know a woman who got a PhD in biochemistry and only squeezed out a 25 on the MCAT, which is surprising since you'd think someone with a biochemistry background should be able to get ~20-24 points just from the biology and physical sci sections combined.