Is affirmative action in the admission process about to end?

[flaahless]

Professor sanders of UCLA wrote a paper about AA and black law school graduates and their subsequent failure in the legal world (high bar failure rates, high attrition rates etc.). It received a lot of mainstream media attention.

http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/systemic/final/sanderfinal.pdf

Okay G. I knew you would pull some stuff like this. Anyways, I'm not going to read 117 pages to verify the validity of your statement. Especially when I question the veracity of your argument.

Anyways, when these discussions take place, people often cite the Linda Chavez article comparing the admissions and attritions of urms vs. orms at UMich school of med.

The problem with that is, we don't know if the students who benefitted from AA are the same students that are dropping out. It could very well be that the student with the high numbers had a change of heart and the student that came in with the lower stats went on to succeed. Unless that info is published, or you present me with some reader-friendly data, then everything you say is conjecture.

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[hopefuldoc87]

Do you not think it's a bad idea to assume that AA then is the exact same as AA now?

I agree...AA was implemented during a much different time and environment.

While you can argue that not much has changed, there has been progression and more equality since then.

 

[parto123]

Hahaha, umm... you're wrong.

1. Your definition of affirmative is wrong. It's not to increase racial diversity, "Affirmative Action is a policy implemented to counteract the abusive nature of an oppressive government and capitalistic society, and to give oppressed groups the opportunity to achieve positions of power." ~ Dr. Maulana Karenga, One of the original founders of AA. Civil rights activist. My dean, professor, mentor, LOR writer... he's very highly decorated person google him if you want.

2. You mention it's factual evidence that blacks are given an advantage over all other groups... blah blah blah... and the data is where? Med school admissions don't release information about disadvantaged applicants and how their stats deviate from the "norm." So for you to make such a claim is fraudulent.

Not only is your definition wrong, it is unconstitutional. I don’t know how anyone not aware of this can even discuss AA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

How academics use the term is irrelevant. We are discussing admissions officers use AA, and the answer to this has been made crystal clear many times over- achieving racial diversity.

Also, my facts about disadvantaged whites and Asians wasn’t specifically about med school, as we are discussing AA in general.

Why don’t you try reading some of the links I provide. I would read yours if you provided any. I actually don’t oppose AA, it just annoys me when people like you try to mischaracterize it as something’s its not.

 

[flaahless]

Are you being funny?



Do you not think it's a bad idea to assume that AA then is the exact same as AA now?

No. And No. I think it's a shame that people perpetuate the innacurate definitions and connotations of what AA truly is. Where do most people learn about AA? The news, newspaper, friends, family, tv. wikipedia. The real definition has been twisted and manipulated to apply to ethnic minorities and college admissions. That's not the truth. That's not its purpose, that's not why it was created. But if you mention AA, people don't think of it as means to counter oppression, the first thing that comes to most peoples minds is "black vs. white." Why? Ha, you tell me.

 

[flaahless]

Not only is your definition wrong, it is unconstitutional. I don't know how anyone not aware of this can even discuss AA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

How academics use the term is irrelevant. We are discussing admissions officers use AA, and the answer to this has been made crystal clear many times over- achieving racial diversity.

Also, my facts about disadvantaged whites and Asians wasn't specifically about med school, as we are discussing AA in general.

Why don't you try reading some of the links I provide. I would read yours if you provided any. I actually don't oppose AA, it just annoys me when people like you try to mischaracterize it as something's its not.

Haha, wtf? If the original meaning of the term is irrelevant, then I guess you're right. That's an effective arguing tool though, to state that your opponent's argument is irrelevant and then go ahead and spew more ridiculous info. Good job.

Your definition of AA came from where? My definition came from the horses mouth.

Good night man.

PS, I read grutter vs. bollinger at least 7 times. Do me a favor, if your school offers an Ethnic Experience course, take it.

 

[parto123]

Haha, wtf? If the original meaning of the term is irrelevant, then I guess you're right. That's an effective arguing tool though, to state that your opponent's argument is irrelevant and then go ahead and spew more ridiculous info. Good job.

Your definition of AA came from where? My definition came from the horses mouth.

Good night man.

PS, I read grutter vs. bollinger at least 7 times. Do me a favor, if your school offers an Ethnic Experience course, take it.

I thought we were discussing how AA is used in school admission. If you would like we can instead call it "racial preference in admission" so you wont have to throw around your "original meaning of AA" red herring. AA, as schools use it, is to achieve racial diversity. This is openly stated by all schools and cannot be disputed.

Also, with regard to your above post about Michigan, it can easily be proven that those affected benefited from AA. As I wrote earlier, admissions officers have admitted that if racial preferences were done away with there would be virtually no blacks in medical school, and no blacks in top medical schools. It stands to reason that 90% of all blacks in Michigan med school benefited from AA.

There are about 1000 black med students each year. The median MCAT for black applicants is 21 and a 3.15 science gpa. And the median MCAT for black med students is 25 and a 3.2 science GPA. I don't think you have to be a stats genius to figure out that most blacks in medical schools, and almost all blacks in top med schools, wouldn't be there if not for AA.


http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

 

[flaahless]

I thought we were discussing how AA is used in school admission. If you would like we can instead call it "racial preference in admission" so you wont have to throw around your "original meaning of AA" red herring. AA, as schools use it, is to achieve racial diversity. This is openly stated by all schools and cannot be disputed.

Also, with regard to your above post about Michigan, it can easily be proven that those affected benefited from AA. As I wrote earlier, admissions officers have admitted that if racial preferences were done away with there would be virtually no blacks in medical school, and no blacks in top medical schools. It stands to reason that 99% of all blacks in Michigan med school benefited from AA.

There are about 1000 black med students each year. The median MCAT for black applicants is 21 with about a 2 standard deviation and a 3.15 science gpa. And the median MCAT for black med students is 25 with about a 1.8 standard deviation and a 3.2 science GPA. I don't think you have to be a stats genius to figure out that virtually all blacks in medical schools, and all blacks in top med schools, wouldn't be there if not for AA.


http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

Maaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn. I was waiting on that. Goodnight. Good luck when you apply.

 

[parto123]

Dp

 

[BlackDr2b]

I thought we were discussing how AA is used in school admission. If you would like we can instead call it “racial preference in admission” so you wont have to throw around your “original meaning of AA” red herring. AA, as schools use it, is to achieve racial diversity. This is openly stated by all schools and cannot be disputed.

Also, with regard to your above post about Michigan, it can easily be proven that those affected benefited from AA. As I wrote earlier, admissions officers have admitted that if racial preferences were done away with there would be virtually no blacks in medical school, and no blacks in top medical schools. It stands to reason that 99% of all blacks in Michigan med school benefited from AA.

There are about 1000 black med students each year. The median MCAT for black applicants is 21 and a 3.15 science gpa. And the median MCAT for black med students is 25 and a 3.2 science GPA. I don’t think you have to be a stats genius to figure out that virtually all blacks in medical schools, and all blacks in top med schools, wouldn’t be there if not for AA.


http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

WOW!!!! That is a heck of a comment! Quite an assumption don't you think?

 

[parto123]

WOW!!!! That is a heck of a comment! Quite an assumption don't you think?

Yep, some hyperbole and dramatic license. Its more like 90+% at top schools wouldnt be admitted.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2998877


And about 80% at all med schools.

"One year after affirmative action was challenged, the University of Texas Law School reduced the number of African Americans by enrolled 88%. Without affirmative action, 80% fewer minorities would have been enrolled in U.S. medical schools in 1996, according to data released by the Association of American Medical Colleges."

 

[BlackDr2b]

Yep, some hyperbole and dramatic license. Its more like 90+% at top schools wouldnt be admitted.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2998877

although the article is about 10 years old.

That article is 10 yrs old. If you want your argument to stand, maybe you should try to get data that is more recent, if not, your argument is weak and your assumption is silly.

 

[parto123]

That article is 10 yrs old. If you want your argument to stand, maybe you should try to get data that is more recent, if not, your argument is weak and your assumption is silly.

Why, what has changed since the late nineties? If anything, medical school has become more competitive, and now someone with a 25 MCAT would be less likely to be admitted than before.

 

[wcbcruzer]

I have mixed feelings about this issue. I feel that it's important to have diversity in a class because grades don't always mean everything. When you get out in the working world, a diverse group of doctors may be better for treating a diverse crowd of patients. Also, there's lots of "selecting" that's not labeled as affirmative action but is no different. For example, if your parents or family members are doctors, then you have a better chance of being admitted. Stuff like that is considered all the time but never mentioned or given a term. A kid from the Bronx who's the first to go to college, let alone medical school, may not have the contacts and family backing like the kid of a doctor who grew up in Orange County. But I guess my latter example isn't really an example of AA, just a hard working kid, whether black, white, asian, or latino.

 

[flaahless]

I have mixed feelings about this issue. I feel that it's important to have diversity in a class because grades don't always mean everything. When you get out in the working world, a diverse group of doctors may be better for treating a diverse crowd of patients. Also, there's lots of "selecting" that's not labeled as affirmative action but is no different. For example, if your parents or family members are doctors, then you have a better chance of being admitted. Stuff like that is considered all the time but never mentioned or given a term. A kid from the Bronx who's the first to go to college, let alone medical school, may not have the contacts and family backing like the kid of a doctor who grew up in Orange County.

Cosign. And this is purely anecdotal, but I've met quite a few upper-middle to upper class applicants with families full of physicians. I'm talking parents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters etc. I would expect those applicants to have a marked advantage over the first gens. But that's purely conjecture. Nonetheless, from my experiences, it seems like there are more well to do applicants with physician parents than there are urm applicants. Odd.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

I thought we were discussing how AA is used in school admission. If you would like we can instead call it “racial preference in admission” so you wont have to throw around your “original meaning of AA” red herring. AA, as schools use it, is to achieve racial diversity. This is openly stated by all schools and cannot be disputed.

Also, with regard to your above post about Michigan, it can easily be proven that those affected benefited from AA. As I wrote earlier, admissions officers have admitted that if racial preferences were done away with there would be virtually no blacks in medical school, and no blacks in top medical schools. It stands to reason that 90% of all blacks in Michigan med school benefited from AA.

There are about 1000 black med students each year. The median MCAT for black applicants is 21 and a 3.15 science gpa. And the median MCAT for black med students is 25 and a 3.2 science GPA. I don’t think you have to be a stats genius to figure out that most blacks in medical schools, and almost all blacks in top med schools, wouldn’t be there if not for AA.


http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

Wow. I can't believe you actually type that. Just...wow.

Quick question: don't most African American physicians graduate from Howard, Meharry, and Morehouse? All three of which who graduate excellent doctors, but have lower stats than average. If these 3 schools represent such a large portion of the Black med student population, then how could you control for their effects? How could you extract their scores from the averages calculated for the entire population to even begin to extrapolate the findings for the "top med schools". Lastly, who cares about these stats as long as these students are passing boards?

Honestly, I feel this entire thread is just a way for some SDN'ers to express prejudiced/racist views in a politically acceptable way. Your behavior is disgusting.

 

[tncekm]

Affirmative action isn't going anywhere for quite a while, IMHO.

Affirmative action as it exists in medicine, specifically, really isn't about race. I was very irritated by the fact that there are different standards held to people of different races until I made myself sit down and really think about this.

There is a lack of quality healthcare in URM communities. Healthcare is considered to be a right by most in the USA, not a privilege (I'm not here to debate for or against that point). Non-URM's don't go back to serve URM communities very often, so clearly, not making exceptions and allowing URM's with lower stats into medical schools will only perpetuate the healthcare problems in those areas.

I think its as simple as that. I believe the same argument can be made for legal representation, education, etc.

Its not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[flaahless]

Wow. I can't believe you actually type that. Just...wow.

Quick question: don't most African American physicians graduate from Howard, Meharry, and Morehouse? All three of which who graduate excellent doctors, but have lower stats than average. If these 3 schools represent such a large portion of the Black med student population, then how could you control for their effects? How could you extract their scores from the averages calculated for the entire population to even begin to extrapolate the findings for the "top med schools". Lastly, who cares about these stats as long as these students are passing boards?

Honestly, I feel this entire thread is just a way for some SDN'ers to express prejudiced/racist views in a politically acceptable way. Your behavior is disgusting.

You are 100% correct. His data also doesn't account for postbacc programs or SMPs that give urm applicants with low stats a better chance to be accepted. Anyways, don't waste your time. Dude is just venting his negative prejudices of African Americans on this site. Notice how in all of his AA posts, it's a black vs. white issue and all other ethnic groups are conveniently left out.

 

[TehDoc]

Wow. I can't believe you actually type that. Just...wow.

Honestly, I feel this entire thread is just a way for some SDN'ers to express prejudiced/racist views in a politically acceptable way. Your behavior is disgusting.

See top of page 3.

 

[tncekm]

Honestly, I feel this entire thread is just a way for some SDN'ers to express prejudiced/racist views in a politically acceptable way. Your behavior is disgusting.

No its not. People are venting their frustrations because there are skin-based standards of acceptance, but IMHO it has everything to do with the fact that they haven't come to terms with the necessity of it. This isn't racially motivated, and I personally find it very upsetting that anytime something non-PC is said cries of racism sound off

 

[neurocirujano]

Wow. I can't believe you actually type that. Just...wow.

Quick question: don't most African American physicians graduate from Howard, Meharry, and Morehouse? All three of which who graduate excellent doctors, but have lower stats than average. If these 3 schools represent such a large portion of the Black med student population, then how could you control for their effects? How could you extract their scores from the averages calculated for the entire population to even begin to extrapolate the findings for the "top med schools". Lastly, who cares about these stats as long as these students are passing boards?

Honestly, I feel this entire thread is just a way for some SDN'ers to express prejudiced/racist views in a politically acceptable way. Your behavior is disgusting.

Oh, come on now. That is nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Anyone who questions affirmative action and then provides solid evidence backing up their opinion is automatically labeled a racist. Please...

Let's try and keep the argument on topic and not on person or else this thread is going to get closed. I, for one, would like to see how it plays out. It is an interesting subject.

 

[flaahless]

Oh, come on now. That is nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Anyone who questions affirmative action and then provides solid evidence backing up their opinion is automatically labeled a racist. Please...

Let's try and keep the argument on topic and not on person or else this thread is going to get closed. I, for one, would like to see how it plays out. It is an interesting subject.

Riiiiggghhht... and this quote is purely evidence-based.

"I don’t think you have to be a stats genius to figure out that most blacks in medical schools, and almost all blacks in top med schools, wouldn’t be there if not for AA."

 

[TehDoc]

To say MOST African Americans wouldn't be in a medical school if it weren't for AA based off a median score is incorrect.

 

[neurocirujano]

No its not. People are venting their frustrations because there are skin-based standards of acceptance, but IMHO it has everything to do with the fact that they haven't come to terms with the necessity of it. This isn't racially motivated, and I personally find it very upsetting that anytime something non-PC is said cries of racism sound off

Couldn't agree more. Now let's get back on topic.

I understand the goal behind affirmative action which, despite what others say, is definitely used to increase diversity in medical schools. The problem for me is that I do not think that the color of your skin, nor your socioeconomic background, should have any effect on the admissions process. It should be based solely on merit and your ability to perform in a manner that demonstrates you are capable of handling the rigors of medical school and beyond.

Call me old-fashioned, but I subscribe to the "color-blind" camp.

 

[neurocirujano]

Riiiiggghhht... and this quote is purely evidence-based.

"I don't think you have to be a stats genius to figure out that most blacks in medical schools, and almost all blacks in top med schools, wouldn't be there if not for AA."

Well he certainly isn't making racist remarks. So, everyone stop calling names and let's see if someone has some evidence to counter his claim?

 

[neurocirujano]

To say MOST African Americans wouldn't be in a medical school if it weren't for AA based off a median score is incorrect.

Well if that is the median score, than you cannot possibly argue that a large majority of African-Americans aren't being accepted due to affirmative action.

 

[TehDoc]

Couldn't agree more. Now let's get back on topic.

I understand the goal behind affirmative action which, despite what others say, is definitely used to increase diversity in medical schools. The problem for me is that I do not think that the color of your skin, nor your socioeconomic background, should have any effect on the admissions process. It should be based solely on merit and your ability to perform in a manner that demonstrates you are capable of handling the rigors of medical school and beyond.

Call me old-fashioned, but I subscribe to the "color-blind" camp.

You speak as if you outperform all URMs.

 

[tncekm]

You speak as if you outperform all URMs.

Seriously, you need to reread his post. He didn't even begin to give that implication in his post.

 

[flaahless]

Well if that is the median score, than you cannot possibly argue that a large majority of African-Americans are being accepted as a result of affirmative action.

Are you serious? Please don't employ that same shoddy logic and irrationality as a medical professional.

 

[neurocirujano]

You speak as if you outperform all URMs.

How did that statement come off in anyway as me saying that I outperform all URMs!? I read it three times over again trying to see where you possibly pulled that from. All I said was that people should be accepted on merit alone and not factors that they cannot control (i.e., skin color).

 

[BlackDr2b]

Well if that is the median score, than you cannot possibly argue that a large majority of African-Americans aren't being accepted due to affirmative action.

A large majority of African Americans go to Howard, Morehouse, and Meharry. In fact most of the African American medical students attend these schools. So you mean to tell me that these schools are using AA?

 

[tncekm]

The problem for me is that I do not think that the color of your skin, nor your socioeconomic background, should have any effect on the admissions process.

I think it should have some level of importance. It DOES effect your grades if you're coming from an uneducated family with a low income. Students from these families (1) don't know what to expect from college, and are likely to make mistakes students from college educated families would not (2) probably spent much more time trying to keep an income than other students who likely had to work less (if at all) and could focus on keeping grades up and getting in those mother teresa hours helping starving children from 3rd world countries on summer missions.

 

[flaahless]

Couldn't agree more. Now let's get back on topic.

I understand the goal behind affirmative action which, despite what others say, is definitely used to increase diversity in medical schools. The problem for me is that I do not think that the color of your skin, nor your socioeconomic background, should have any effect on the admissions process. It should be based solely on merit and your ability to perform in a manner that demonstrates you are capable of handling the rigors of medical school and beyond.

Call me old-fashioned, but I subscribe to the "color-blind" camp.

Okay. Define what those merits are, and what criteria should be considered to determine one's ability to handle the rigors of med school and beyond.

 

[neurocirujano]

A large majority of African Americans go to Howard, Morehouse, and Meharry. In fact most of the African American medical students attend these schools. So you mean to tell me that these schools are using AA?

Woah. I just realized that I misspoke. Honestly, instead of saying:

Well if that is the median score, than you cannot possibly argue that a large majority of African-Americans aren't being accepted due to affirmative action.

I meant to say:

Well if that is the median score, than you cannot possibly argue that a large number of African-Americans aren't being accepted due to affirmative action.

 

[neurocirujano]

Okay. Define what those merits are, and what criteria should be considered to determine one's ability to handle the rigors of med school and beyond.

1. Overall GPA
2. Science GPA
3. MCAT scores
4. Extra-curricular Activities
5. Transcripts
6. Personal Statements discussing your motivation, reasons for medicine, etc.
7. Letters of Recommendation
8. Clinical Experience
9. Research Experience

I do not know how anyone could argue that the color of your skin determines your ability to handle medical school. Is that what you are saying?

 

[tncekm]

Are you serious? Please don't employ that same shoddy logic and irrationality as a medical professional.

I'm not understanding your logic.

Average GPA of medical school matriculant = 3.6

Average GPA of black med school matriculant = 3.2 w/ SD = 0.4, that means that roughly 75% of black applicants are under the average matriculated GPA based off the fact that +/- 1 SD from the mean contains about 50% of the data, meaning that an additional 25% lays to the left and 25% to the right.

I think this information is entirely irrelevant to the original topic, however, you keep attacking neurocirujano for using valid statistical inferences. And, keep in mind I think that URM preference is totally necessary ATM.

 

[Maxprime]

A large majority of African Americans go to Howard, Morehouse, and Meharry. In fact most of the African American medical students attend these schools. So you mean to tell me that these schools are using AA?

1180 black matriculants in 2007,
Assuming all matriculants to those schools are black (which they aren't)
125 at Howard
35 at Morehouse
80 at Meharry
--------------
240 total - I did a google search and went quickly, so correct my #'s if you know otherwise.

240/1180 = 20%. This is not 'a large majority' of african american matriculants. Don't blow this out of the water by claiming I suggest this supports/hurts the idea of AA - I'm just trying to encourage the use of facts.

 

[flaahless]

1. Overall GPA
2. Science GPA
3. MCAT scores
4. Extra-curricular Activities
5. Transcripts
6. Personal Statements discussing your motivation, reasons for medicine, etc.
7. Letters of Recommendation
8. Clinical Experience
9. Research Experience

I do not know how anyone could argue that the color of your skin determines your ability to handle medical school. Is that what you are saying?

So... overcoming personal hardship? Should that be considered? What about access to educational opportunities? Maybe individuals from different ethnicities or socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds bring valuable perspectives to their med school class to enrich their learning experience and medical profession as a whole.

 

[Twiigg]

Well, I think affirmative action will be ruled unconstitutional by the time I apply. Do I think this will have much of an effect on whether or not I get accepted or not? No.

 

[BlackDr2b]

1180 black matriculants in 2007,
Assuming all matriculants to those schools are black (which they aren't)
125 at Howard
35 at Morehouse
80 at Meharry
--------------
240 total - I did a google search and went quickly, so correct my #'s if you know otherwise.

240/1180 = 20%. This is not 'a large majority' of african american matriculants. Don't blow this out of the water by claiming I suggest this supports/hurts the idea of AA - I'm just trying to encourage the use of facts.

My question to this is, these stats are saying that there is almost 1000 African American medical students at other schools. how is this possible when most schools have less than 7 African Americans in their class?

 

[neurocirujano]

So... overcoming personal hardship? Should that be considered? What about access to educational opportunities? Maybe individuals from different ethnicities or socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds bring valuable perspectives to their med school class to enrich their learning experience and medical profession as a whole.

You're right. That should be considered. In a personal statement.

 

[tncekm]

So... overcoming personal hardship? Should that be considered? What about access to educational opportunities? Maybe individuals from different ethnicities or socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds bring valuable perspectives to their med school class to enrich their learning experience and medical profession as a whole.

Definitely agree with you here, especially with the disadvantaged background. If things like these weren't considered, the applicant pool would pretty much be closed off to families where the parents are already well off professionals.

 

[tncekm]

My question to this is, these stats are saying that there is almost 1000 African American medical students at other schools. how is this possible when most schools have less than 7 African Americans in their class?

There are like 130 medical schools. 7x130 =910. The numbers add up just fine.

 

[Maxprime]

My question to this is, these stats are saying that there is almost 1000 African American medical students at other schools. how is this possible when most schools have less than 7 African Americans in their class?

Back of the envelope calculation:
168 medical schools in the US
-3 'traditionally black' schools
------------
165 schools * 7 black students/school = 1155 black students outside of traditionally black schools

 

[Maxprime]

So... overcoming personal hardship? Should that be considered? What about access to educational opportunities? Maybe individuals from different ethnicities or socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds bring valuable perspectives to their med school class to enrich their learning experience and medical profession as a whole.

So, because you checked box _____ for race, we're to assume that you had to overcome more personal hardship, had less access to educational opportunities, and were socioeconomically disadvantaged?

I find that to be pretty much the definition of racism. Don't you?

 

[BlackDr2b]

Back of the envelope calculation:
168 medical schools in the US
-3 'traditionally black' schools
------------
165 schools * 7 black students/school = 1155 black students outside of traditionally black schools

But that is assuming there is 7 at each school, and we all know that that may or may not be true. That is why I said less than 7. I am not going off of numbers, I am going off of what I have heard and seen.

 

[tncekm]

But that is assuming there is 7 at each school, and we all know that that may or may not be true. That is why I said less than 7. I am not going off of numbers, I am going off of what I have heard and seen.

You keep digging man, its useless. Some schools may have 0, some may have 14. Who cares... the numbers add up based on information you gave.

 

[flaahless]

I'm not understanding your logic.

Average GPA of medical school matriculant = 3.6

Average GPA of black med school matriculant = 3.2 w/ SD = 0.4, that means that roughly 75% of black applicants are under the average matriculated GPA based off the fact that +/- 1 SD from the mean contains about 50% of the data, meaning that an additional 25% lays to the left and 25% to the right.

I think this information is entirely irrelevant to the original topic, however, you keep attacking neurocirujano for using valid statistical inferences. And, keep in mind I think that URM preference is totally necessary ATM.

Okay, look at the data that dude posted. He left off Drew but it's all good. If 20% of your population has numbers that are markedly lower than the national average, then the statistics will be skewed. What about students that enter a postbacc or SMP that greatly boosts their chances at an acceptance? Many universities have postbaccs, smps or reapp programs that allow urms with lower numbers to take classes with MS1s and if they pass then they are offered a seat in the upcoming class. Now these students are considered matriculants even though they didn't matriculate through the traditional means. How many students benefit from this, beats me. But it's an unknown that must be considered. However, that aamc data doesn't show that. All it shows is a broad picture of urm applicants and then you have prejudiced and biased individuals that try to draw vast conclusions from overly general data.

For someone to say that... "since the median numbers for urm applicants are below the national average, one can conclude that the majority of urms at top institutions benefitted from AA" is ridiculous. That argument is completely invalid and I dare any one of yall to try and argue that with your critical reasoning professor. You will receive an instant F.

You cannot use median data to predict the behavior, or this case the merits, of the individuals at the upper end of the spectrum. ESPECIALLY, when there are so many factors at play that aren't accounted for. Ie: HBCUs that have lower admissions numbers, postbaccs that make applicants with lower numbers more appealing, and the most blatant one, NOT ALL SCHOOLS PRACTICE AA.

 

[BlackDr2b]

You keep digging man, its useless. Some schools may have 0, some may have 14. Who cares... the numbers add up based on information you gave.

Im not digging, just speaking my opinion. And the numbers don't add up based on what I said because I said less than 7. Why is it useless? My original comment was to the fact that it is a terrible assumption to say that most African Americans are in medical school because of AA. Not all schools use AA.

 

[flaahless]

So, because you checked box _____ for race, we're to assume that you had to overcome more personal hardship, had less access to educational opportunities, and were socioeconomically disadvantaged?

I find that to be pretty much the definition of racism. Don't you?

You shouldn't assume anything. But for someone to assume that I even checked a box designating my ethnicity, or that I benefitted from the preferential treatment of AA is as equally racist.

 

[tncekm]

Okay, look at the data that dude posted. He left off Drew but it's all good. If 20% of your population has numbers that are markedly lower than the national average, then the statistics will be skewed. What about students that enter a postbacc or SMP that greatly boosts their chances at an acceptance? Many universities have postbaccs, smps or reapp programs that allow urms with lower numbers to take classes with MS1s and if they pass then they are offered a seat in the upcoming class. Now these students are considered matriculants even though they didn't matriculate through the traditional means. How many students benefit from this, beats me. But it's an unknown that must be considered. However, that aamc data doesn't show that. All it shows is a broad picture or urm applicants and then you have prejudiced and biased individuals that try to draw vast conclusions from overly general data.

For someone to say that... "since the median numbers for urm applicants are below the national average, one can conclude that the majority of urms at top institutions benefitted from AA" is ridiculous. That argument is completely invalid and I dare any one of yall to try and argue that with your critical reasoning professor. You will receive an instant F.

You cannot use median data to predict the behavior, or this case the merits, of the individuals at the upper end of the spectrum. ESPECIALLY, when there are so many factors at play that aren't accounted for. Ie: HBCUs that have lower admissions numbers, postbaccs that make applicants with lower numbers more appealing, and the most blatant one, NOT ALL SCHOOLS PRACTICE AA.

Well, you're arguing details and exceptions, and that's fine.

I just simply was making the point that it was unjustified for people to be calling him a racist because, he was basing his statement of the numbers that the AAMC gave.