Is extreme religious fanatisism ever treated by physchiatrist?

[carlosc1dbz]

I hope this is not offensive to anyone, as it is not intended to be. I know people on SDN are a little edgy. Its hard for me to give examples of what exactly could be treated since I am not a psychiatrist, but I maybe can offer some ideas of things that I might consider needing some sort of psychiatric help.

Actually I could not come up with any good examples that would not possibly offend people, so if anyone can give some insight into the issue, that would be greatly appreciated.

Dang maybe I could of titled this something better. Something along the lines of..............well maybe just not have used the word religion.

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[loveoforganic]

I know of a teen patient whose parents were very religous. He could hear God/the devil communicating with him.

Long story short, diagnosed schizotypal. I'm not sure that falls specifically under "fanaticism" though.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Distinguishing between psychosis and religious fanaticism is one of the reasons why psychiatrists exist, or at least why the nuances of our training matter. I grew up in an ultra-protestant town (speaking in tongues, some snake handling further out in the county), and know what religious fanatics sound like (at least, what the Christian protestant fanatics sound like). And the important thing is that they sound like each other. When they don't, that's when you start to worry. I recently had a guy who was a) ultra-religious at baseline, b) with a psychotic disorder, and c) prone to delirium s/p multiple CVAs and nearly impossible to control hypertension (Oh yeah, and his QTc of 580 sorta limited our treatment options).

So some days he thought he was literally the vessel of Christ, some days he thought he was figuratively a vessel of Christ, and some days he didn't know what day it was, but was pretty sure that he fought the devil in the bathroom yesterday.

 

[whopper]

A google search will yield several specific examples of religious extremism that most people would agree are detrimental.

 

[carlosc1dbz]

I know of a teen patient whose parents were very religous. He could hear God/the devil communicating with him.

Long story short, diagnosed schizotypal. I'm not sure that falls specifically under "fanaticism" though.

Interesting example. I wonder if anyone hear has dealt with human possessions by demons. That of course is under the premise that they exist in the first place. How would one distinguish a real demonic possession from some type of mental disorder?

 

[loveoforganic]

I don't think "real demonic possessions" are under the scope of evidence based medicine.

 

[billypilgrim37]

How would one distinguish a real demonic possession from some type of mental disorder?

In the case of real demonic possessions, I typically consider a typical antipsychotic first line. Beelzebub seems to respond differentially well to low-potency typicals, while Legion is best abated with a mid-potency.

 

[Sneezing]

There is no such thing as a "real" demonic posession.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

There is no such thing as a "real" demonic posession.

You hope...

 

[erg923]

There is no such thing as a "real" demonic posession.

Not according to the priests at my former high school....

 

[Sneezing]

Demonic possessions used to be in the DSM 0. We have progressed since then to DSM IV, and there is no need for a priest on treatment teams or "Rule out Demonic Possession." I don't need to hope for their non-existance, I know so. Man himself and his choices is the only demon in existance.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Demonic possessions used to be in the DSM 0. We have progressed since then to DSM IV, and there is no need for a priest on treatment teams or "Rule out Demonic Possession." I don't need to hope for their non-existance, I know so. Man himself and his choices is the only demon in existance.

Some might argue that your belief in the "progress" of the Special Revelation known as the DSM might be as irrational as a belief in demons.

 

[Sneezing]

Some might argue that your belief in the "progress" of the Special Revelation known as the DSM might be as irrational as a belief in demons.

 

[billypilgrim37]

You clearly have never seen a demon driven out by Haldol 10mg BID.

 

[surftheiop]

This thread is probably a good place for me to ask something that has been sort of nagging at me and making me wonder if Psych would be a bad choice for me down the road. If you reply, please read my whole post before quoting one sentence out of context.

I'm what I would consider fairly religious, but not a Biblical literalist. I believe that the Earth is 4.3 Billion y/o and whatnot, but at the same time I also believe that humans "ought" to seek God and that praying is more than some relaxation method.

I obviously have no issues with psych Meds or else I wouldn't be considering the field and I absolutely acknowledge the biophysical underpinnings of psychiatric disorders (I have actually helped to convince a friend or two of mine that its OK to take an SSRI for depression).

But at the same time when I hear about someone who is mildy depressed (or I guess what would be most closely classified as dysthmic disorder) part of me wants to suggest they seek guidance from clergy or pray about it. I know this wouldn't be acceptable medical advice to give a patient and I would have no problem maintaining my boundaries professionally, but at a personal level I might feel as if I weren't offering everything that I felt could benefit the patient.

I'm curious if there are any religious psychiatrists on here (or people with religous colleagues) who might be able to give some comments about how a religious psychiatrist might deal with this possible tension of feeling like you have to "hold back" in order to maintain professional integrity.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Distinguishing between psychosis and religious fanaticism is one of the reasons why psychiatrists exist, or at least why the nuances of our training matter. I grew up in an ultra-protestant town (speaking in tongues, some snake handling further out in the county), and know what religious fanatics sound like (at least, what the Christian protestant fanatics sound like). And the important thing is that they sound like each other. When they don't, that's when you start to worry. I recently had a guy who was a) ultra-religious at baseline, b) with a psychotic disorder, and c) prone to delirium s/p multiple CVAs and nearly impossible to control hypertension (Oh yeah, and his QTc of 580 sorta limited our treatment options).

So some days he thought he was literally the vessel of Christ, some days he thought he was figuratively a vessel of Christ, and some days he didn't know what day it was, but was pretty sure that he fought the devil in the bathroom yesterday.

I apologize to Sneezing for frustrating him.

This is the best answer on the thread so far. The key with religious fanaticism, or presumed demon possession, or whatever is similar to the approach to Delusional Disorder: you're not likely to argue them out of it, and antipsychotics generally have limited utility (even when you can talk or court-order the patient into taking them).

In all these cases the focus is going to be on behavior and on history. How is the belief affecting their functioning? Are they behaving dangerously to self or others? Is there “clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning"? Are the beliefs different from others with similar beliefs, and if so, how? (Often you'll get patients brought to you for example, by other Pentacostals who are telling you--"Yeah we speak in tongues, and believe in demons, but this guy is WEIRD. There's something wrong with him!") Is this a change from a previous baseline? Is this something that comes and goes episodically (i.e.--present in manic episodes, but not at baseline)?

Hope that illuminates. Now, back to my seance....

 

[st2205]

This thread is probably a good place for me to ask something that has been sort of nagging at me and making me wonder if Psych would be a bad choice for me down the road. If you reply, please read my whole post before quoting one sentence out of context.

I'm what I would consider fairly religious, but not a Biblical literalist. I believe that the Earth is 4.3 Billion y/o and whatnot, but at the same time I also believe that humans "ought" to seek God and that praying is more than some relaxation method.

I obviously have no issues with psych Meds or else I wouldn't be considering the field and I absolutely acknowledge the biophysical underpinnings of psychiatric disorders (I have actually helped to convince a friend or two of mine that its OK to take an SSRI for depression).

But at the same time when I hear about someone who is mildy depressed (or I guess what would be most closely classified as dysthmic disorder) part of me wants to suggest they seek guidance from clergy or pray about it. I know this wouldn't be acceptable medical advice to give a patient and I would have no problem maintaining my boundaries professionally, but at a personal level I might feel as if I weren't offering everything that I felt could benefit the patient.

I'm curious if there are any religious psychiatrists on here (or people with religous colleagues) who might be able to give some comments about how a religious psychiatrist might deal with this possible tension of feeling like you have to "hold back" in order to maintain professional integrity.

An atheist psychiatrist I knew related to me how religious patients benefit from having stronger commitment to their faith, and they would often make clergy available to them (an inpatient unit). This especially with the terminally ill. I wouldn't let a few absolutist relativists sway you from pointing patients in the direction of what helps them achieve a more healthy balance in their life.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...

But at the same time when I hear about someone who is mildy depressed (or I guess what would be most closely classified as dysthmic disorder) part of me wants to suggest they seek guidance from clergy or pray about it. I know this wouldn't be acceptable medical advice to give a patient and I would have no problem maintaining my boundaries professionally, but at a personal level I might feel as if I weren't offering everything that I felt could benefit the patient.

I'm curious if there are any religious psychiatrists on here (or people with religous colleagues) who might be able to give some comments about how a religious psychiatrist might deal with this possible tension of feeling like you have to "hold back" in order to maintain professional integrity.

There is nothing inappropriate about assessing what the patient's spiritual beliefs and resources are, and encouraging them to access these in a healthy way.

I often ask a depressed inpatient if they would like me to order a chaplaincy consult, for example. In my addiction practice, I encourage AA membership and exploration of their Higher Power, whether via an organized religion, or individual spirituality. This is all part of the "psychosocial" in the biopsychosocial, and it is really important that you know these things about your patient, and that you believe that they are an important part of the support they need in recovery.

Psychiatry has gotten a bad rap for being "anti-religious", and it is true that as a specialty we are (according to surveys) less likely to practice religion than our peers. Now it would be a boundary issue, IMHO, to offer to pray (or worse, to insist on praying!) with a patient in session--but that's probably another thread.

 

[carlosc1dbz]

So i assume that no one has ever experienced a patient that really made you wonder if there are demons or spirits that can posses a person. I think that it is really interesting that the DSM 0 had demonic possession as condition.

In the following quote, "Are the beliefs different from others with similar beliefs, and if so, how? (Often you'll get patients brought to you for example, by other Pentacostals who are telling you--"Yeah we speak in tongues, and believe in demons, but this guy is WEIRD. There's something wrong with him!")." Is it safe to say that it is ok to have delusions as long as your not the only one. If a group of people are hearing voices or messages from a supreme being, is it considered normal, but if it is just one person who is hearing things, he has a mental condition?

This is a very interesting topic.

 

[loveoforganic]

This thread is probably a good place for me to ask something that has been sort of nagging at me and making me wonder if Psych would be a bad choice for me down the road. If you reply, please read my whole post before quoting one sentence out of context.

I'm what I would consider fairly religious, but not a Biblical literalist. I believe that the Earth is 4.3 Billion y/o and whatnot, but at the same time I also believe that humans "ought" to seek God and that praying is more than some relaxation method.

I obviously have no issues with psych Meds or else I wouldn't be considering the field and I absolutely acknowledge the biophysical underpinnings of psychiatric disorders (I have actually helped to convince a friend or two of mine that its OK to take an SSRI for depression).

But at the same time when I hear about someone who is mildy depressed (or I guess what would be most closely classified as dysthmic disorder) part of me wants to suggest they seek guidance from clergy or pray about it. I know this wouldn't be acceptable medical advice to give a patient and I would have no problem maintaining my boundaries professionally, but at a personal level I might feel as if I weren't offering everything that I felt could benefit the patient.

I'm curious if there are any religious psychiatrists on here (or people with religous colleagues) who might be able to give some comments about how a religious psychiatrist might deal with this possible tension of feeling like you have to "hold back" in order to maintain professional integrity.

I'm at the same professional stage at you, so I'll give my input from that perspective. I'm officially a Roman Catholic, but honestly I'm more in line with Hindu univeralism, at least according to how wiki defines it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism#Hinduism

At any rate, you need to consider ways to help the patient. If you have a nonreligous patient who's depressed, pushing any kind of religous agenda on them is likely going to result in a lot of resistance from them that's going to be very counterproductive to your goals. While assuming your role as a doctor, it would be unethical to push something that doesn't have evidence of efficacy and would likely be counterproductive to treatment. On the flipside, if a patient is religous, I would see nothing wrong with suggesting they use their religous community as a support system.

Keep in mind that my religous beliefs don't have a "drive to seek God" behind them so much as a "drive to be a beneficial person," so that pressure you feel is probably greater than what I do.

 

[loveoforganic]

So i assume that no one has ever experienced a patient that really made you wonder if there are demons or spirits that can posses a person. I think that it is really interesting that the DSM 0 had demonic possession as condition.

In the following quote, "Are the beliefs different from others with similar beliefs, and if so, how? (Often you'll get patients brought to you for example, by other Pentacostals who are telling you--"Yeah we speak in tongues, and believe in demons, but this guy is WEIRD. There's something wrong with him!")." Is it safe to say that it is ok to have delusions as long as your not the only one. If a group of people are hearing voices or messages from a supreme being, is it considered normal, but if it is just one person who is hearing things, he has a mental condition?

This is a very interesting topic.

I think a lot of it boils down to the necessity of functional impairment to be present to diagnose something. If someone is functioning well within their community of Pentacostals, holding a job, etc., then there isn't an issue that needs solving, regardless of what others outside of that community may think of their beliefs.

 

[igottaquestion]

Some might argue that your belief in the "progress" of the Special Revelation known as the DSM might be as irrational as a belief in demons.

Amen.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

So i assume that no one has ever experienced a patient that really made you wonder if there are demons or spirits that can posses a person. I think that it is really interesting that the DSM 0 had demonic possession as condition.

[foghornLeghorn] That's a JOKE, son! [/foghornleghorn]

In the following quote, "Are the beliefs different from others with similar beliefs, and if so, how? (Often you'll get patients brought to you for example, by other Pentacostals who are telling you--"Yeah we speak in tongues, and believe in demons, but this guy is WEIRD. There's something wrong with him!")." Is it safe to say that it is ok to have delusions as long as your not the only one. If a group of people are hearing voices or messages from a supreme being, is it considered normal, but if it is just one person who is hearing things, he has a mental condition?

This is a very interesting topic.

Well certainly some (Richard Dawkins comes to mind!) might argue that all religion is delusional, but Our Holy DSM defineth Delusion as "A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture. "

So, bottom line is, you are correct--if your subculture believes it, you're not delusional. (Don't get me started on the Tea Partiers, now... )

 

[nancysinatra]

People have been responding in terms of treating psychotic delusions, but that wasn't what came to my mind when I read the question. What about regular old extremism? Is there any role for psychiatry there? Like Whopper says it can be detrimental.

Even following the DSM criteria can be misleading, unless you also apply common sense. For example what if you had a muslim fundamentalist in a small town dominated by fundamentalist Christians--the person may certainly not seem like "them." Also a lot of issues like job discrimination could arise and on the surface the person could meet our DSM criteria for being "impaired" or whatever. Or if a pentacostal moved to, say, some atheist enclave of northern california, and continued speaking in tongues--that shouldn't transform them to "psychotic."

I don't know because I haven't done outpatient psych and the only time you really address "religion" in inpatient psychiatry is when the patient demonstrates "hyperreligiosity" or religious delusions. But I would not actually call that "religious extremism." I would call that mania or psychosis. People also have delusions that they are the President of the US but we don't say that we're treating political fervor when we give those patients antipsychotics. But yes, psychosis and mania show up all the time with "religious" elements. People will go on fasts, they won't drink water, they will stand in traffic reciting bible verses--we see that all the time!

But what about an extremely religious narcissist? Someone who insists their dogmatic view is the only view, or thinks they are especially blessed... Perhaps more experienced residents or attendings could address this.

I think there are some histrionic figures in the public religious realm--TV evangelists, etc.

Oh, and what about converts to extremist cults? I've known a couple people who joined them, including one who later got out and wrote articles about being "brainwashed." The other person I knew never escaped and has since lost all contact with former friends and family. I wonder if any therapy could have helped her... She had features of several personality d/o's.

 

[loveoforganic]

Lots of really interesting examples - I await answers eagerly!

 

[Sneezing]

The DSM 0 does not exist. That was meant to be a slightly funny reference to the time before modern psychiatry.

 

[carlosc1dbz]

The DSM 0 does not exist. That was meant to be a slightly funny reference to the time before modern psychiatry.

LOL. My bad. I could try to play it off, but being that most of you are psychiatrist, Ill just assume you would know I was playing it off, so ill be honest. I fell for it.

One thing that concerns me being that I was raised a Catholic, is that when Jesus returns (premise of existence) he would probably destroy the Vatican for being corrupt, then be arrested, and then be labeled with some type of psychotic disorder for claiming that he is the son of God, and we would not even know that he actually was the real one.

 

[st2205]

One thing that concerns me being that I was raised a Catholic, is that when Jesus returns (premise of existence) he would probably destroy the Vatican for being corrupt, then be arrested, and then be labeled with some type of psychotic disorder for claiming that he is the son of God, and we would not even know that he actually was the real one.

This is because civilized man holds the final authority.

 

[whopper]

Where I did residency, a former Catholic nun was the nurse manager. She was no-nonsense and assisted in some exorcisms. She believed in demonic possession.

But never once did she ever think any of the psychotic patients on the unit were possessed. She mentioned she noticed specific signs that allowed one to separate the possessed from the psychotic.

Anyway, I never talked with it in detail, but since I never heard a peep out of her on a patient she thought was possessed, I though there might've actually something to it.

 

[michaelrack]

Interesting example. I wonder if anyone hear has dealt with human possessions by demons. That of course is under the premise that they exist in the first place. How would one distinguish a real demonic possession from some type of mental disorder?

If a person believes that both God and the devil are talking to him, he is definitely psychotic. If he believes that the devil is talking to him, he is probably psychotic. If he believes God is talking to him, he may or may not be psychotic.

 

[michaelrack]

How would one distinguish a real demonic possession from some type of mental disorder?

Levitation would be be a good sign that it is real demonic possession

 

[OldPsychDoc]

People have been responding in terms of treating psychotic delusions, but that wasn't what came to my mind when I read the question. What about regular old extremism? Is there any role for psychiatry there? Like Whopper says it can be detrimental.

Even following the DSM criteria can be misleading, unless you also apply common sense. For example what if you had a muslim fundamentalist in a small town dominated by fundamentalist Christians--the person may certainly not seem like "them." Also a lot of issues like job discrimination could arise and on the surface the person could meet our DSM criteria for being "impaired" or whatever. Or if a pentacostal moved to, say, some atheist enclave of northern california, and continued speaking in tongues--that shouldn't transform them to "psychotic."

I don't know because I haven't done outpatient psych and the only time you really address "religion" in inpatient psychiatry is when the patient demonstrates "hyperreligiosity" or religious delusions. But I would not actually call that "religious extremism." I would call that mania or psychosis. People also have delusions that they are the President of the US but we don't say that we're treating political fervor when we give those patients antipsychotics. But yes, psychosis and mania show up all the time with "religious" elements. People will go on fasts, they won't drink water, they will stand in traffic reciting bible verses--we see that all the time!

But what about an extremely religious narcissist? Someone who insists their dogmatic view is the only view, or thinks they are especially blessed... Perhaps more experienced residents or attendings could address this.

I think there are some histrionic figures in the public religious realm--TV evangelists, etc.

Oh, and what about converts to extremist cults? I've known a couple people who joined them, including one who later got out and wrote articles about being "brainwashed." The other person I knew never escaped and has since lost all contact with former friends and family. I wonder if any therapy could have helped her... She had features of several personality d/o's.

Good points, and as you point out, apparently closer to the spirit of the OP.

Again, the key is behavior--are they doing something that is either dangerous to self or others, or out of the ordinary for even a small sub-culture. Otherwise, they may be a social irritant, but not mentally ill.

Now where it gets sticky is when there is pressure on us from family or society to attribute pathology where it is not warranted. Notably, even Jesus' family is recorded as wanting to shut him up because he was "not in his right mind". On a bigger scale one merely has to think about the role of psychiatrists in essentially starting the Holocaust by assisting Nazi efforts to remove the "mentally feeble", or the abuse of psychiatry by the Soviets in labelling dissent as mental illness. On a small scale, it's the controlling spouse or parent who attributes problems in the relationship to another person's supposed illness, and drags the victim in "to get help" that they themselves need. And just to make it interesting, there are patients like billypilgrim's above, where there's a little bit of everything--and we have to sort it all out, and sometimes stand our ground and say "There's no real pathology here--there's some problems to work on, but this isn't 'mental illness'".

 

[whopper]

Levitation would be be a good sign that it is real demonic possession

The Catholic church claims it only performs exorcisms only after mental illness and neurological disorders have been ruled to not be causing the strange signs of possession.

Though they never exactly mentioned how they do it, or what signs they are looking for.

IMHO, this is very interesting because even if you don't believe it, it's just fascinating stuff.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Levitation would be be a good sign that it is real demonic possession

The 360-degree cervical rotation is also fairly specific, at least in an ambulatory patient.

 

[michaelrack]

The 360-degree cervical rotation is also fairly specific, at least in an ambulatory patient.

On a serious note, eyes rolling back ( a sign of hypnotizability), would suggest against real demonic possession.

 

[michaelrack]

The Catholic church claims it only performs exorcisms only after mental illness and neurological disorders have been ruled to not be causing the strange signs of possession.

Though they never exactly mentioned how they do it, or what signs they are looking for.

IMHO, this is very interesting because even if you don't believe it, it's just fascinating stuff.

I do believe in demonic possession, but think that it is very rare. I think it would be fascinating if one of the docs who assisted the Catholic Church in evaluating cases of alleged demonic possession would write a book about his experiences.

 

[st2205]

The 360-degree cervical rotation is also fairly specific, at least in an ambulatory patient.

I learned in our anatomy course that it was because she lacked the ligamentum flavum, so I wouldn't go stamping demonic possession on it without the proper evaluation.

 

[Doc Samson]

I do believe in demonic possession, but think that it is very rare. I think it would be fascinating if one of the docs who assisted the Catholic Church in evaluating cases of alleged demonic possession would write a book about his experiences.

I was trained by two Jesuit psychiatrists who firmly espouse that demonic possession is BS. They were involved in a documetary about exorcism etc. in an expert witness "against" role - for some reason that documentary has yet to see the light of day.

 

[carlosc1dbz]

I was trained by two Jesuit psychiatrists who firmly espouse that demonic possession is BS. They were involved in a documetary about exorcism etc. in an expert witness "against" role - for some reason that documentary has yet to see the light of day.

Maybe just maybe some organization with unlimited resources bought the rights to the video, and now has them stored in a library that cannot be accessed by common folk.

I dont have first hand experience with possessions and I can only go by what I have been told but most of these possessions seem to occur in developing nations. They are more into the dark arts. A good example (hearsay) is a girl that got possessed and they did an exorcism in Juarez Mexico, because she would be pressed up against the ceiling of her bedroom at night by some imaginary force.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Maybe just maybe some organization with unlimited resources bought the rights to the video, and now has them stored in a library that cannot be accessed by common folk.
...

Paging Dan Brown--got your next novel here!

 

[surftheiop]

I think I saw this book mentioned the the NYT, The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist.

I think I remember their review saying that this book is one of the better descriptions of exorcism's role in the modern catholic church.

It follows a Priest going through "exorcism school" and I remember it mentioning that some of the classes are taught by psychiatrists to "teach them how to tell possession apart from psychosis"

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385522700

 

[Sneezing]

The Catholic church claims it only performs exorcisms only after mental illness and neurological disorders have been ruled to not be causing the strange signs of possession.

Though they never exactly mentioned how they do it, or what signs they are looking for.

IMHO, this is very interesting because even if you don't believe it, it's just fascinating stuff.

Only as equally fascinating as every other factitious disorder.

(So glad I'm going into psych! These types of conversations beat discussions of surgical approaches, or anatomic variants, or what is the cause of this belly pain.)

 

[carlosc1dbz]

Only as equally fascinating as every other factitious disorder.

(So glad I'm going into psych! These types of conversations beat discussions of surgical approaches, or anatomic variants, or what is the cause of this belly pain.)

You guys are cool.

 

[michaelrack]

Only as equally fascinating as every other factitious disorder.

(So glad I'm going into psych! These types of conversations beat discussions of surgical approaches, or anatomic variants, or what is the cause of this belly pain.)

My guess would be probably undiagnosed dissociative disorders in most cases rather than factitious disorder, assuming you don't believe there are any true cases of possesssion.

 

[zenman]

My guess would be probably undiagnosed dissociative disorders in most cases rather than factitious disorder, assuming you don't believe there are any true cases of possesssion.

How would one distinguish a real demonic possession from some type of mental disorder?

I've never seen a case of demonic possession but I would suspect if the person was "normal" after removal of the demon, then they might not need a DSM label.

I have for lack of a better EBM word, pulled "dark energies" out of people. For ex., one lady had a 20 yr history of nightmares. I almost lost control removing that bad boy...felt something trying to come up my arms...and lost my voice for hours. Client was fine after that. Would antipsychotics have helped (either of us, lol)...probably not and my job was quick.

Am I nuttzzz? My psychiatrist preceptor doesn't think so...and I am aware of all the fine eating establishments in Jackson, MS...

 

[Sneezing]

I've never seen a case of demonic possession but I would suspect if the person was "normal" after removal of the demon, then they might not need a DSM label.

I have for lack of a better EBM word, pulled "dark energies" out of people. For ex., one lady had a 20 yr history of nightmares. I almost lost control removing that bad boy...felt something trying to come up my arms...and lost my voice for hours. Client was fine after that. Would antipsychotics have helped (either of us, lol)...probably not and my job was quick.

Am I nuttzzz? My psychiatrist preceptor doesn't think so...and I am aware of all the fine eating establishments in Jackson, MS...

You are hard to follow here. What exactly are you saying? Are you saying you performed an exorcism and are now some sort of "witch doctor?"

 

[whopper]

Only as equally fascinating as every other factitious disorder.

Exactly, and those I also find highly fascinating.

Is it BS? I don't know. IMHO this is like answering if ghosts exist or if there's an afterlife. I certainly would have a very high level of suspicion if someone approached an apparently psychotic patient as if it were possession. Given that exorcisms are performed every year by the Catholic Church, and they claim they actually investigate each case to rule out mental illness, I'm very curious what their methods are.

I'm sure I'm speaking to the converted, but there's a real danger in pursuing a case as if it were a demonic possession unless one documented very very carefully.

An attending that was rated a NJ top doctor told me if he had a case where the patient and family were convinced the person was possessed, he'd certainly allow an exorcism, but would document that he encouraged it only because the patient's abnormal presentation might have been psychosomatic, and performing a religious ritual that is considered normal within his culture may relieve him of those psychosomatic problems. He said he would certainly continue to monitor the patient and also peform the standard of care treatment in addition to allowing the exorcismm, while also mentioning that he had his doubts that the person was actually possesssed.

Hey, I love Bill Maher's opinion of Bobby Jindal's experience with a possessed person. Gov. Jindal of Louisiana, in case you didn't know, said he converted from Hinduism (if I remember correctly) because he actually saw someone in college possessed, and he participated in an exorcism.

As Maher put it, something to the effect of "so we got an idiot who prevented a girl from getting the needed medical care for her temporal lobe seizure by holding her down and tying her up, and when her seizure ended, the idiot thinks he exorcised her!"

 

[st2205]

As Maher put it, something to the effect of "so we got an idiot who prevented a girl from getting the needed medical care for her temporal lobe seizure by holding her down and tying her up, and when her seizure ended, the idiot thinks he exorcised her!"

Well it's comforting to know that not only is Maher a religious authority, he is also a medical authority.

 

[carlosc1dbz]

Well it's comforting to know that not only is Maher a religious authority, he is also a medical authority.

I didnt like his movie Religulous. I found it to be kinda dry, with all the good parts being found on the previews.

As far as the doctor that felt a dark force crawling up his arms and him losing his voice, that is freaky.

 

[kugel]

The 360-degree cervical rotation is also fairly specific, at least in an ambulatory patient.

People who can rotate the cervix 360 degrees get invited to a lot of parties!