Is it correct for DNPs and NPs calling themselves Doctors??

[arc5005]

I've met 3 people recently who after asking about their lives, careers, etc.. have told me that they are doctors. As someone who is very interested in applying and attending medical school, I began to ask what their specialty is, what school they went to, where do they currently practice, etc...etc...

2 of the people I met were NPs working as either
1) FNP in family med
2) ARNP working in Peds
and the third was
3) DNP working in Gerontology.

I'm a little confused whether this is the standard now? Is it legally correct for these individuals to call themselves Doctors? Maybe the DNP, because of the doctoral degree. However, wouldn't this be misleading to patients, if you are a DNP and introduce yourself as Dr. John Doe? I was a little irked by all 3 individuals after learning that they weren't MDs or DOs, yet still introduced themselves to "strangers" as doctors.

The PA who works in the clinic I'm in would never refer to herself as a doctor. She always goes by her first name.

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[j4pac]

No....they aren't doctors. Only people with doctorates are doctors.

 

[cliquesh]

The NPs I work with do not call themselves doctors. They make around 200, work 40 hrs a week, and have no call. It's almost better than being a doctor, hah.

 

[arc5005]

No....they aren't doctors. Only people with doctorates are doctors.

so is it legally allowed for DNPs to call themselves Doctors?

 

[arc5005]

The NPs I work with do not call themselves doctors. They make around 200, work 40 hrs a week, and have no call. It's almost better than being a doctor, hah.

200K for a NP seems ridiculous. CRNAs and Surgical PAs don't even make that much on average.....

 

[cliquesh]

200K for a NP seems ridiculous. CRNAs and Surgical don't even make that much on average.....

The crnas make like 220 to 250 here. Anesthiologists make like 350 to over a million depending on what they do. I don't know about the PAs.

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

Ask them if they are a physician, then you'll get the right answer. Doctor ≠ physician.

 

[DreamerCNM]

The NPs I work with do not call themselves doctors. They make around 200, work 40 hrs a week, and have no call. It's almost better than being a doctor, hah.

What specialty are these NPs in??


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[cliquesh]

What specialty are these NPs in??


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Im not sure what their training is in, but I work with them in some of the ICUs. They are very good at what they do.

 

[DrMikeP]

A person with a doctorate degree is a doctor. There are doctors besides physicians. In most hospitals you should identify yourself as Doctor X and your particular specialty and what you are there to do. For instance I am Dr Mike, Psychologist and am here for xyz. Same with a cardiologist, ortho, family med etc.

The NPs should not call themselves doctor unless they are and should indicate their area.

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[IslandStyle808]

I believe they can as long as they indicate they are nurses.

 

[j4pac]

A non-physician calling themself "Dr. ____" without giving their credentials should be reported. It's unethical...it is poor for patient care...and creates liability for everyone involved.

 

[AlteredScale]

I've met 3 people recently who after asking about their lives, careers, etc.. have told me that they are doctors. As someone who is very interested in applying and attending medical school, I began to ask what their specialty is, what school they went to, where do they currently practice, etc...etc...

2 of the people I met were NPs working as either
1) FNP in family med
2) ARNP working in Peds
and the third was
3) DNP working in Gerontology.

I'm a little confused whether this is the standard now? Is it legally correct for these individuals to call themselves Doctors? Maybe the DNP, because of the doctoral degree. However, wouldn't this be misleading to patients, if you are a DNP and introduce yourself as Dr. John Doe? I was a little irked by all 3 individuals after learning that they weren't MDs or DOs, yet still introduced themselves to "strangers" as doctors.

The PA who works in the clinic I'm in would never refer to herself as a doctor. She always goes by her first name.

They can proclaim themselves as Dr. ___ in a non-clinical setting, they can also do so in a clinical setting so as long as they announce what their role is. Never in my times being at two different academic university hospitals have I ever heard of a non-physician calling themselves "Dr. ___" because 1) it's probably against the policy of the hospital and 2) they know that what they are doing may in fact deceive the patient even if they say "I'm Dr. ___ and I am a nurse practitioner" because a typical patient does not understand what that means nor do they care why they prefix their name with "Dr".

DNP's fight tooth and nail to state "I earned a doctorate and therefore have the right to be called doctor" which hell, by all means do so. But they'll never be a physician.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Technically, those who earn a "Doctorate" degree (Ph.D, Psy. D, Ed.D, DNP) can label themselves as "doctors". But in a hospital setting, those who carry that title should caution the usage of the "doctor" title to avoid confusion. In nursing school, I do not know how many times I've been corrected by my nursing instructors w/ doctorate degrees to call them "Dr." instead of "Professor".

 

[DrMikeP]

Technically, those who earn a "Doctorate" degree (Ph.D, Psy. D, Ed.D, DNP) can label themselves as "doctors". But in a hospital setting, those who carry that title should caution the usage of the "doctor" title to avoid confusion. In nursing school, I do not know how many times I've been corrected by my nursing instructors w/ doctorate degrees to call them "Dr." instead of "Professor".

There is a reason most hospitals adopt AIDET and require more than "Hi I'm Dr Smith"... so this is a non-issue. In my hospital some patients will have a dozen different doctors following them, so it is important for each to identify themselves.

The AMA and JCAHO had a big discussion about this a while back and it was decided that full identification was the best practice to reduce patient confusion. There's a big difference in roll between a doctorate NP, cardiologist, podiatrist, psychiatrist, and urologist so a proper introduction reduces wasted time for the dr and the patient. Dr's, OT/PT, Nurses, etc at my hospital get in trouble for not properly fully identifying themselves on entry.

 

[Mad Jack]

In nursing school, I do not know how many times I've been corrected by my nursing instructors w/ doctorate degrees to call them "Dr." instead of "Professor".

Wow, what sad insecurities they must have... "Professor" is actually a more highly respected title historically in regard to academics, and is completely interchangeable with "doctor" in most academic capacities, but they clearly just want to pretend to be respected like physicians. Ridiculous. If I'm ever teaching medical students and they call me "professor" I'm not going to be upset in the slightest lol.

 

[arc5005]

Technically, those who earn a "Doctorate" degree (Ph.D, Psy. D, Ed.D, DNP) can label themselves as "doctors". But in a hospital setting, those who carry that title should caution the usage of the "doctor" title to avoid confusion. In nursing school, I do not know how many times I've been corrected by my nursing instructors w/ doctorate degrees to call them "Dr." instead of "Professor".

Yeah. I get that anyone who has a doctorate degree is considered a "doctor/dr," but I was thinking more about in a clinical setting. If someone introduces themselves as Dr. so and so, I'm going to assume they are a MD or DO in a hospital/clinical setting...

However, these 3 individuals I met who told me they were Doctors were all in social settings. They obviously were just trying to make it seem like they were physicians/like they went to med school. I'm pretty sure the DNP even told me he went to UW Med school, told me he did his specialty in Gerontology, and then later I find out he did his DNP program through UW... Not the same thing as going to med school. I don't get why people need to seem more grandiose than who they really are. Being a NP/DNP/FNP are all extremely great careers.

 

[AlteredScale]

Yeah. I get that anyone who has a doctorate degree is considered a "doctor/dr," but I was thinking more about in a clinical setting. If someone introduces themselves as Dr. so and so, I'm going to assume they are a MD or DO in a hospital/clinical setting...

However, these 3 individuals I met who told me they were Doctors were all in social settings. They obviously were just trying to make it seem like they were physicians/like they went to med school. I'm pretty sure the DNP even told me he went to UW Med school, told me he did his specialty in Gerontology, and then later I find out he did his DNP program through UW... Not the same thing as going to med school. I don't get why people need to seem more grandiose than who they really are. Being a NP/DNP/FNP are all extremely great careers.

In a way, they have doctorate programs within a medical school (PhD or anything else) and so I guess that's justifiable to say they were doctors. Now essentially hiding the fact that he didn't go to med school and saying they specialized? That's disrespectful and unfortunately from my interactions with many nursing students, typical behavior amongst those pursuing NP's or DNP's or double DNP's. They hide these things because they don't want you to know the cold hard truth that they are NOT and will never be physicians no matter how many "specialties" they complete because 1) they didn't go to med school 2) they didn't take the USMLE or COMLEX 3) they did not graduate with a degree in medicine (osteopathic or not).

 

[IslandStyle808]

In a way, they have doctorate programs within a medical school (PhD or anything else) and so I guess that's justifiable to say they were doctors. Now essentially hiding the fact that he didn't go to med school and saying they specialized? That's disrespectful and unfortunately from my interactions with many nursing students, typical behavior amongst those pursuing NP's or DNP's or double DNP's. They hide these things because they don't want you to know the cold hard truth that they are NOT and will never be physicians no matter how many "specialties" they complete because 1) they didn't go to med school 2) they didn't take the USMLE or COMLEX 3) they did not graduate with a degree in medicine (osteopathic or not).

You can also include Nursing Ph.D.s into the mix.

 

[prettyNURSEtoMD]

We have several DNPs in my department. They will identify themselves as Dr, but then clarify their licensure. For example, "Hi I'm Dr. Pretty, and I'll be the NP taking care of you". That is legal and it's in the statutes in the board of nursing and regulatory boards. It is very specific and more specific in particular states that mentions how you have to identify. In an academic setting, as for PhD and DNP, there is no need to clarify as it is in academia.


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[Torilynn92]

The hospital I work with requires that advanced-degree holders who are not board-certified physicians clarify their role every time they communicate with a patient, for example "Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So, your Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner." or "Hi, I'm Dr. X, your physical therapist." Even physicians have adopted the habit of saying "Hello, I'm Dr. Y, and I'm a gastroenterologist/internist/surgeon." The hospital is pretty clear that people shouldn't use acronyms a patient might not be familiar with, either - no rattling off "Hey I'm Dr. X your ARNP/CRNP/CNA, anyway..." However, I work with an elderly patient population, and most of them don't know the difference and just think every person they're speaking to is a physician. On the one hand, I completely understand and respect that the alternative doctorate holders want to be recognized for their hard work, and they're certainly extremely qualified individuals...but it's deliberately misleading to the patient, so it seems almost unethical to me. I wish there was an alternate title for actual physicians vs. academic doctorates and nursing doctorates. :/

 

[DrMikeP]

The hospital I work with requires that advanced-degree holders who are not board-certified physicians clarify their role every time they communicate with a patient, for example "Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So, your Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner." or "Hi, I'm Dr. X, your physical therapist." Even physicians have adopted the habit of saying "Hello, I'm Dr. Y, and I'm a gastroenterologist/internist/surgeon." The hospital is pretty clear that people shouldn't use acronyms a patient might not be familiar with, either - no rattling off "Hey I'm Dr. X your ARNP/CRNP/CNA, anyway..." However, I work with an elderly patient population, and most of them don't know the difference and just think every person they're speaking to is a physician. On the one hand, I completely understand and respect that the alternative doctorate holders want to be recognized for their hard work, and they're certainly extremely qualified individuals...but it's deliberately misleading to the patient, so it seems almost unethical to me. I wish there was an alternate title for actual physicians vs. academic doctorates and nursing doctorates. :/

There is an alternative, drop the use of the title "doctor" and each professional identify themselves by their profession. That or physicians use the term physician and drop the much more generic term doctor.

Personally, I think the ever increasing paperwork and documentation requirements are a much greater problem and threat to physicians than someone using the term doctor. Kind of like sweeping the porch while the house is burning.

 

[osckey]

I'm so glad I will never have to trick a patient into thinking I'm a physician. What a feeling.

 

[Oh_Gee]

 

[GreenScrubss]

The hospital I work with requires that advanced-degree holders who are not board-certified physicians clarify their role every time they communicate with a patient, for example "Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So, your Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner." or "Hi, I'm Dr. X, your physical therapist." Even physicians have adopted the habit of saying "Hello, I'm Dr. Y, and I'm a gastroenterologist/internist/surgeon." The hospital is pretty clear that people shouldn't use acronyms a patient might not be familiar with, either - no rattling off "Hey I'm Dr. X your ARNP/CRNP/CNA, anyway..." However, I work with an elderly patient population, and most of them don't know the difference and just think every person they're speaking to is a physician. On the one hand, I completely understand and respect that the alternative doctorate holders want to be recognized for their hard work, and they're certainly extremely qualified individuals...but it's deliberately misleading to the patient, so it seems almost unethical to me. I wish there was an alternate title for actual physicians vs. academic doctorates and nursing doctorates. :/

My biggest problem with it. Even if you make the (huge) assumption that you are giving the same quality of care as a physician does, purposely misleading a patient shows really poor character.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Wow, what sad insecurities they must have... "Professor" is actually a more highly respected title historically in regard to academics, and is completely interchangeable with "doctor" in most academic capacities, but they clearly just want to pretend to be respected like physicians. Ridiculous. If I'm ever teaching medical students and they call me "professor" I'm not going to be upset in the slightest lol.

I didn't mind calling them "Dr. So and So" in the academic setting. My only problem with them is that from experience, these instructors carry such a bigoted attitude.

 

[Mad Jack]

I didn't mind calling them "Dr. So and So" in the academic setting. My only problem with them is that from experience, these instructors carry such a bigoted attitude.

It's the chip on the shoulder that bugs me. Most of my physician teachers are fine if you drop the "Dr." and call them by their first or last name- they don't feel like they're being slighted if you drop the doctor, because they know that they're doctors and what you call them isn't really that important. Your professors, on the other hand, want to remind you of their importance/prestige/place in the hierarchy.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

It's the chip on the shoulder that bugs me. Most of my physician teachers are fine if you drop the "Dr." and call them by their first or last name- they don't feel like they're being slighted if you drop the doctor, because they know that they're doctors and what you call them isn't really that important. Your professors, on the other hand, want to remind you of their importance/prestige/place in the hierarchy.

I rarely do bash on my own profession, but it's guys like them that give us RN's a bad name.

 

[FutureFloridaDr]

The NPs I work with do not call themselves doctors. They make around 200, work 40 hrs a week, and have no call. It's almost better than being a doctor, hah.

ummmm time to move to this location and become a NP! Just curious, where is this? I live in Florida, and I'm sure even here that NP's do not make that much. Are you in the middle of nowhere (no offense)?

 

[68PGunner]

ummmm time to move to this location and become a NP! Just curious, where is this? I live in Florida, and I'm sure even here that NP's do not make that much. Are you in the middle of nowhere (no offense)?

There is a solution to this. There should be a standardized adoption of all physicians referring to themselves as Physician X.

 

[cliquesh]

ummmm time to move to this location and become a NP! Just curious, where is this? I live in Florida, and I'm sure even here that NP's do not make that much. Are you in the middle of nowhere (no offense)?

I'm in a city in the northeast. Not all of the NPs make that much. The acute pain/block NPs, for instance, make around $120k or so. We also have NPs that do pre-OP evaluations, and I think they make sub-100k, but I'm not sure. They all seem like good jobs.

 

[sisko]

Yeah things are getting pretty loosey-goosey these days. I've (no joke) met girls who told me they were going to "medical school" and come to find out they were studying to be an LPN or Radiology Tech. Not to mention that at the hospital where I work just about everybody except the janitors wear white coats. Also had a coworker tell me, about someone who used to work in our department, "he tried to get into medical school but he couldn't, so he went to DO school."

 

[escanoke]

The NPs I work with do not call themselves doctors. They make around 200, work 40 hrs a week, and have no call. It's almost better than being a doctor, hah.

Wow but that makes sense you're in the NE


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[escanoke]

My biggest problem with it. Even if you make the (huge) assumption that you are giving the same quality of care as a physician does, purposely misleading a patient shows really poor character.

I would like to hope they're smart enough not to do this and assume they tell their peers that they're Drs solely to make them seem more respectable


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[escanoke]

The hospital I work with requires that advanced-degree holders who are not board-certified physicians clarify their role every time they communicate with a patient, for example "Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So, your Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner." or "Hi, I'm Dr. X, your physical therapist." Even physicians have adopted the habit of saying "Hello, I'm Dr. Y, and I'm a gastroenterologist/internist/surgeon." The hospital is pretty clear that people shouldn't use acronyms a patient might not be familiar with, either - no rattling off "Hey I'm Dr. X your ARNP/CRNP/CNA, anyway..." However, I work with an elderly patient population, and most of them don't know the difference and just think every person they're speaking to is a physician. On the one hand, I completely understand and respect that the alternative doctorate holders want to be recognized for their hard work, and they're certainly extremely qualified individuals...but it's deliberately misleading to the patient, so it seems almost unethical to me. I wish there was an alternate title for actual physicians vs. academic doctorates and nursing doctorates. :/

I think your answer is in your statement, since they're all docotorates technically speaking are "Doctors" and that's why their is the term physician?


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[GreenScrubss]

I would like to hope they're smart enough not to do this and assume they tell their peers that they're Drs solely to make them seem more respectable


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Yeah I don't know. We have patients come to our clinic to establish a new pcp only to find out their old pcp who they've seen for years was actually a mid-level. Who knows whether there was an issue in the patient understanding or if they were purposely misled. I can say a lot of times if the patient is elderly their siblings end up pretty peeved when they find it out their mom or pop hasn't been seeing a MD as their main physician.

 

[Dr.NickRiviera]

Technically, those who earn a "Doctorate" degree (Ph.D, Psy. D, Ed.D, DNP) can label themselves as "doctors". But in a hospital setting, those who carry that title should caution the usage of the "doctor" title to avoid confusion. In nursing school, I do not know how many times I've been corrected by my nursing instructors w/ doctorate degrees to call them "Dr." instead of "Professor".

Wow, what sad insecurities they must have... "Professor" is actually a more highly respected title historically in regard to academics, and is completely interchangeable with "doctor" in most academic capacities, but they clearly just want to pretend to be respected like physicians. Ridiculous. If I'm ever teaching medical students and they call me "professor" I'm not going to be upset in the slightest lol.

This is not true. To be called professor, you must have a tenure-track faculty position (associate professor, assistant professor, full professor, etc.). If those nursing instructors are appointed as Instructors/Lecturers, they cannot be addressed as professor. @NoTownPreMed Your nursing instructors simply wanted to be respectful of the people who have tenure-track faculty positions, positions that are potentially even harder to get into than med school.

You call your professors Dr. if they have a doctorate (most professors do so perhaps this is where the confusion comes from). Most professors prefer you call them Professor since to them, it's a more prestigious title. The professor title does not come with the doctorate, it comes with your faculty position. The only title that comes with the doctorate is Dr.

 

[DrMikeP]

This is not true. To be called professor, you must have a tenure-track faculty position (associate professor, assistant professor, full professor, etc.). If those nursing instructors are appointed as Instructors/Lecturers, they cannot be addressed as professor. @NoTownPreMed Your nursing instructors simply wanted to be respectful of the people who have tenure-track faculty positions, positions that are potentially even harder to get into than med school.

You call your professors Dr. if they have a doctorate (most professors do so perhaps this is where the confusion comes from). Most professors prefer you call them Professor since to them, it's a more prestigious title. The professor title does not come with the doctorate, it comes with your faculty position. The only title that comes with the doctorate is Dr.

Actually you don't have to be "tenure-tracked," as many even some major universities have dropped tenured positions. But you do have to be employed doctoral "faculty" above the adjunct or temporary status at a college/university to be called (assistant, associate, full) professor. Often the title of ___ professor is given to a doctoral level instructor or clinical staff who has/is engaged in research (it's easier to obtain the status with grant money) and been promoted. I've never been a fan of using the term "adjunct professor," unless the instructor was a professor elsewhere but some universities now accept/use such as well. There are also clinical professor positions that are faculty but do not provide classroom style instruction. The title professor is almost as complicated as the title Doctor.

Dr MikeP, Psy.D.
Assistant Professor, College of Psychology
Medical Staff Dept of Psychiatry
and not soon enough D.O., College of Medicine

 

[yayayaok]

The crnas make like 220 to 250 here. Anesthiologists make like 350 to over a million depending on what they do. I don't know about the PAs.

A crna isn't an np


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[j4pac]

BTW...I work with some fantastic senior NPs and PAs. I call them doc. They don't call themselves doc. Their patients may call them doc and I'm completely fine with that. But generally the ones who are calling themselves "doctor" are the NOT SO GOOD ONES.

 

[yayayaok]

My biggest problem with it. Even if you make the (huge) assumption that you are giving the same quality of care as a physician does, purposely misleading a patient shows really poor character.

Get used to it. The hospital is 70% egotistical nurses and technicians who all take advantage each little letter after their name. They will use those powers to get what they want and get you ****ing fired if they are pmsing.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

A crna isn't an np


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Yes they are.

Why on earth have you blown up my alerts by trivial comments in dead threads or by simply posting periods?

 

[costales]

A distinguished-looking gentleman appeared to visit a dying patient of mine in intern year. He called himself Dr. So-and-So and I immediately thought he was her family physician. Well, he had a mail-order Doctor of Divinity. I hope he didn't drain her bank accounts.

People can call themselves whatever they want, and there is not much you can do about it (as long as the patient knows who their attending is, it's not worth your time). BTW Did you know that lawyers are called "doctor" in many countries e.g. Brazil and Hungary?

 

[yayayaok]

Yes they are.

Why on earth have you blown up my alerts by trivial comments in dead threads or by simply posting periods?

Because nurse practitioners are not Certified nurse anesthesiologists. CRNAs go through completely different more extensive training than an NP. A nurse can get an NP online bro. I'm just correcting your incorrect statement mostly because I was bored but still


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[AnatomyGrey12]

Because nurse practitioners are not Certified nurse anesthesiologists. CRNAs go through completely different more extensive training than an NP. A nurse can get an NP online bro. I'm just correcting your incorrect statement mostly because I was bored but still


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They are still an NP....

 

[cliquesh]

@yayayaok

I know. I was talking about NPs in my previous post. You have to scroll further up.

 

[deleted731525]

Technically, those who earn a "Doctorate" degree (Ph.D, Psy. D, Ed.D, DNP) can label themselves as "doctors". But in a hospital setting, those who carry that title should caution the usage of the "doctor" title to avoid confusion. In nursing school, I do not know how many times I've been corrected by my nursing instructors w/ doctorate degrees to call them "Dr." instead of "Professor".

Tbf this isn't limited to nursing. I remember when I was getting my undergrad degree I was taking a history class where the instructor had a phd in history. I had to miss the first class because of a severe snow storm so I emailed the professor basically asking them if I missed anything important, if there was anything I should do, if I could access the sylabus online, etc. I adressed him as professor in the email. In the response I get a one sentence reply, "I am to be adressed as doctor" and no answer to my questions. And then the next day of class he started off with a rant about how if you are going to email him you can't be too informal and stared me down. Must suck to be at the top of your profession and still insecure.

 

[Goro]

Yes. So can a chiropractor or a dentist

so is it legally allowed for DNPs to call themselves Doctors?

 

[Superman8891]

They are still an NP....

CRNAs, NPs, CNMs (Certified Nurse Midwives) , and CNE (Clinical Nurse Educators) all fall under the umbrella of Advanced Practice Nurses. This does not mean that CRNAs are NPs because they are not. A CRNA goes through a completely different educational program (as stated earlier above) than an NP would. The Scope of Practice is very different between the two. But they are all Advanced Practice Nurses. To muddy the waters a little more, many CRNA programs are transitioning to a Doctor of Nurse Anesthesia program which will most likely be required for all CRNAs in the near future.

 

[yayayaok]

CRNAs, NPs, CNMs (Certified Nurse Midwives) , and CNE (Clinical Nurse Educators) all fall under the umbrella of Advanced Practice Nurses. This does not mean that CRNAs are NPs because they are not. A CRNA goes through a completely different educational program (as stated earlier above) than an NP would. The Scope of Practice is very different between the two. But they are all Advanced Practice Nurses. To muddy the waters a little more, many CRNA programs are transitioning to a Doctor of Nurse Anesthesia program which will most likely be required for all CRNAs in the near future.

Thank you for confirming this silly but important understanding