Is it time to cash in and do something else?

[chicken-n-beer]

I’m a black woman. I don’t need to be preached to about representation in medicine. Your main rant on here didn’t have anything to do with you, other than the fact that you think you should be in better standing compared to others, but about other people. You can’t see behind the curtain of their apps. There definitely needs to be improvement. We certainly need more of us in medicine but thinking that your responses are perfect/app is improved doesn’t equal you being accepted. Applying to mission fit schools in regards to your specific app is also a big part of it. I just don’t see the reason for worrying about other people in the application cycle to the point where you feel negative about medicine as a whole. If those schools didn’t see value in you then research and try to find the schools that will because they do exist. Focus on you and what you can control. I had several professors from the health committee at my school in undergrad tell me I wasn’t competitive enough for med school and they refused to write me a committee letter, so I got individual letters. My stats weren’t the greatest, yet here I am. Don’t focus on what’s going on around you. Focus on you. Comparison is a thief of joy.

I agree with the sentiment but I don’t think I was ranting. Ranting would imply that everything I’m saying is conjecture or anecdotal. I’m a little disillusioned with medicine and it isn’t just relegated to the app process. As I said earlier, I’ve literally seen healthcare providers treat patients differently and it affected outcomes and patient satisfaction. Furthermore, I never said I was perfect but I have improved. In theory, I think every applicant always has room for improvement so decisions regarding admissions have to be subject to some subjectivity. The previous notion underscores what you say “applying to mission fit schools in regards to your specific app is also a big part of it.” In actuality, I think I’ll get in this time because I’ve casted a wider net. I meant no disrespect or intended to come across as preach or holier than thou.

My major contention is that the bottleneck in medical education exists for everyone but especially for us and especially for Black men. In every academic environment, there are fewer Black people and even fewer Black men. When you look at admissions, medical school matriculation and residency placement/completion, we’re up against it. In my dealings with medical professionals, as in most other arenas in this country, there is a disconnect. We’re told very earlier that we have to be diligent, work hard and carry on but this is only half the story. I’m not trying to be on a perpetual soapbox but I’m a passionate person and I tend to talk. Hopefully I can take my passion, get into medical school and one day use my passion to advocate for my patients. You’re right and I’m not trying to worry about every other person and I’m not envious. I’ve gone out of my way to help other with no intentions of it being repaid and, oftentimes, I’m not. If I’m able to help people push forward, I’m satisfied. It just hurts to see people progress and not look back and pull others forward. I have a more collective mindset and when others push against that, it’s draining.

I’ve applied to all the HBCUs and hope I’m able to attend one.

I’m sorry if I’m rambling but this issue always stirs up a passion in me.

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[Just D.O. it]

but when you look at admissions rates for Black and Brown people, they're abysmal (not just for me). In fact, when I last checked, admission rates for African American men has not improved in over half a century (they were actually better in the 1970s than they are now). In light of the previous fact, when you hear people discuss diversity incessantly, it begins to fall on deaf ears. I'm not upset because I'm not getting in as quickly as I'd like, I'm upset at the hypocrisy. I want more people of color in medicine in general, even if I'm not able to get in.

I hope I don't make things too controversial, but I sincerely hope that your claim here is more a result of ignorance than malicious intent. Admission rates for AA students with stats close to the average matriculant are extremely high (somewhere in the neighbourhood of 80-90%) while a general applicant with the average stats would, by definition, have a 50/50 shot.

There are definitely concessions made to increase diversity. If you still doubt efforts are being made to increase black representation, I'd suggest you pull up the data for average matriculant MCAT broken down by race and take a look.

I don't know what hypothetical solution you imagine, but medical schools can't simply take every URM/disadvantaged/community-oriented person that applies when they don't meet academic benchmarks and thus are a high risk of simply failing out.

 

[chicken-n-beer]

I hope I don't make things too controversial, but I sincerely hope that your claim here is more a result of ignorance than malicious intent. Admission rates for AA students with stats close to the average matriculant are extremely high (somewhere in the neighbourhood of 80-90%) while a general applicant with the average stats would, by definition, have a 50/50 shot.

There are definitely concessions made to increase diversity. If you still doubt efforts are being made to increase black representation, I'd suggest you pull up the data for average matriculant MCAT broken down by race and take a look.

I don't know what hypothetical solution you imagine, but medical schools can't simply take every URM/disadvantaged/community-oriented person that applies when they don't meet academic benchmarks and thus are a high risk of simply failing out.

I did not say people who cannot and will not do the work be blindly admitted. The statistics I'm referring to concern the composition of medical school classes. If you look at the composition of medical school classes from 1970's and compare them to now, there are fewer Black/Brown people in medical school. You're saying that when POC have comparable stats, they have approximately the same success rate (which is good). As many have alluded to earlier, there are also soft factors than influence admission (i.e. volunteering, commitment, how one expresses their interest, etc). In my estimation, ready access to information and resources for everyone has improved over the last fifty years so applicants are better prepared and more informed. How were Black applicants better prepared in the 70's versus now? What do you mean by concessions? Assuming equal preparation and competence, wouldn't have a diverse pool of physicians be beneficial for patients? I know medical schools are not inherently responsible for preparing students to apply but to insinuate that the playing field is level is a fallacy. This discussion can proceed for quite some time but objective and subjective qualities should be considered. I understand medical schools want return on investment from admitted students and they are able to predict this based on objective things (i.e. MCAT scores vs Step performance, undergrad/grad GPAs vs med school GPAs, etc). My issue is how many (not all) schools tout many philanthropic endeavors but when you pull back the layers, it's superficial at best and really helps very few people.(the school gets points and good press). I believe one real change many schools could make is providing out reach for K-12 students so they can see people like them in professional roles.

 

[Just D.O. it]

You're saying that when POC have comparable stats, they have approximately the same success rate

No......... I'm saying when they have comparable stats they have a much much higher success rate.

A white applicant with *average* stats has a 50% chance of admission. An AA applicant with *average* stats has about an 80% chance.

 

[chicken-n-beer]

No......... I'm saying when they have comparable stats they have a much much higher success rate.

A white applicant with *average* stats has a 50% chance of admission. An AA applicant with *average* stats has about an 80% chance.

You're saying when a POC applicant has average stats, they're given some nebulous, undue advantage? If that contention were true, why do most medical school classes have very few Black or Hispanic students (outside HBCUs)?

 

[Just D.O. it]

nebulous, undue advantage

I didn't say anything along those lines, and it's not nebulous. Affirmative action is openly one of the mechanisms used to increase diversity.

If that contention were true, why do most medical school classes have very few Black or Hispanic students (outside HBCUs)?

Do black and hispanic applicants have the same distribution of MCAT scores and GPAs as white and asian students? No, they do not. Thus black and hispanic applicants can still have a higher acceptance rate when stats are comparable while still comprising a smaller portion of medical students.

Also it's not a contention because it's not in dispute, it's a fact.

 

[chicken-n-beer]

I didn't say anything along those lines, and it's not nebulous. Affirmative action is openly one of the mechanisms used to increase diversity.



Do black and hispanic applicants have the same distribution of MCAT scores and GPAs as white and asian students? No, they do not. Thus black and hispanic applicants can still have a higher acceptance rate when stats are comparable while still comprising a smaller portion of medical students.

Also it's not a contention because it's not in dispute, it's a fact.

I could go back and forth with you all day but I'll leave you with this:

1. You're saying there is an unclear advantage but it's very-well outlined (i.e. Black and Hispanic students are admitted but are somehow less qualified). This ultimately speaks to what I describe beforehand. Once a basic level of competence is assumed, does a few extra points or GPA points correspond to better patient care? People can be very qualified on paper but be abysmally uniformed and have terrible interpersonal skills/ biases. In considering soft skills, as I said before, there is great subjectivity. My assertion is that when you have healthcare providers of differing backgrounds you can more effectively help a broad population of patients. Essentially, you're insinuating that schools take Black and Hispanic students based on some lower standards based on some obligation. Furthermore, many schools go on about diversity initiatives which usually have moot benefits. Why take students that you find margianlly qualified just based on social pressures? I can imagine the biases the adminitration and professors hold if they feel they have many people in a cohort who got a "hand-out". I'm of the belief that many schools accept just enough URM students to not raise a fuss but if they weren't compelled to do so (whether implicitly or explicitly), they'd take fewer. There is no magic metric for grades and GPA that completely predicts how well someone will perform as a physician.

2. To imply that MCAT scores and GPA distributions are the answer is, again, laughably ludicrous.

 

[Just D.O. it]

which usually have moot benefits

Look at the chart again and tell me how the benefits of affirmative action have been "moot" for AA applicants.

2. To imply that MCAT scores and GPA distributions are the answer is, again, laughably ludicrous.

Be straight with me brother, you're out here implying that med schools are somehow secretly racist and keeping AA applicants out.

When I show you data that proves that your claim is not only untrue but that schools are actually more willing to accept URMs over asians and whites when they have the same stats, you call it "laughably ludicrous" with no elaboration on why you've dismissed the numbers when they don't suit your initial argument.

Also GPA/MCAT distributions are in fact different between the ethnic groups, if you are rejecting it because you think I made it up, I'm happy to find and link average applicant stats broken down by race.

I'll leave you with this,

1. Racism is not what is keeping you out of med school.

2. Med school admissions commitment to diversity provably goes beyond "lip service".

 

[gyngyn]

This never ends well.
Closing.