Is med school really that hard to get into?

[wondergirl3]

Hi

I've recently discovered this forum website, and almost everywhere I look here, it makes it seem like I won't get into med school unless I have a 3.8+, super hard science classes, outstanding ECs, a few pubs, and about 300 volunteering and shadowing hours.

Is this really that hard to get into med school or is (some) of this forum just crazy?!

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

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[allantois]

There are plenty of people on here who didn't have a 3.8, anything beyond science pre-requisites, any pubs, or 300 shadowing hours

 

[VictorAlpha]

It is what it is...put in the work and you can get in

 

[wondergirl3]

At first, it seemed like I needed to cure cancer just to get an interview!

 

[efle]

A lot of the people on here are doing well at very good colleges and are referring to top medical schools when they talk about what's expected of applicants

 

[Boolean]

That all said, you cannot underestimate what is expected of you. It is a decent bit.

 

[Aloft085]

Hi

I've recently discovered this forum website, and almost everywhere I look here, it makes it seem like I won't get into med school unless I have a 3.8+, super hard science classes, outstanding ECs, a few pubs, and about 300 volunteering and shadowing hours.

Is this really that hard to get into med school or is (some) of this forum just crazy?!

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

Hey, just check the AAMC admissions statistics: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

You can pretty easily see how you stack up just by looking at that. Keep in mind that the average candidate is going to do a few shadowings/research/volunteering to "check the box" on those categories. If you're a weaker than normal candidate in terms of GPA/MCAT, you can make up for it by excelling in other areas.

Edited for a better link. Also, don't forget that DO schools are always an option.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Hi

I've recently discovered this forum website, and almost everywhere I look here, it makes it seem like I won't get into med school unless I have a 3.8+, super hard science classes, outstanding ECs, a few pubs, and about 300 volunteering and shadowing hours.

Is this really that hard to get into med school or is (some) of this forum just crazy?!

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

Getting into medical school is not easy, that is for sure.
You can always take the D.O. route, which is slightly less competitive.
The way I see it; I want to get into the best medical school possible, or at least maximize my chances of getting into school in state. Therefore, I work my a** off to set myself a part, and to prove how dedicated I am to becoming a physician.
The demands are reasonable. You just have to take everything day by day. Hours will accumulate, and you will slowly grow a great medical school resume.
I would recommend you poke around these forums quite a bit if you have any questions. SDN has a great network of adoms, physicians, medical students, etc. who are all willing to offer advice as well.

 

[Silverflash]

Getting into medical school is not easy. That said, it often isn't as hard as people on SDN make it out to be. But you should do your own research. Purchase the MSAR and look at admission statistics, or look at AMCAS released information or school websites. You'll find plenty of resources to help you figure out exactly what's needed to get in.

 

[Holmwood]

300 is hardly a lot of volunteering, even with a full courseload...

Anyway, if I told you yes, you wouldn't believe me. If I told you no, you wouldn't believe me. Stats only tell the surface of the story. For instance, if only a third of applicants get accepted to one school, you may have more than a 30% chance depending on your stats/ECs. Conversely, you may even have a 10% chance...
The only way to know is to apply for yourself.

'Course, it's not bad to look at star applicants and strive to reach that level of awesomeness. You'll just achieve more if you set higher expectations for yourself. With competition increasing every year, you will want to have your accomplishments surpass even your most basic expectations anyway.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

300 is hardly a lot of volunteering, even with a full courseload...

'Course, it's not bad to look at star applicants and strive to reach that level of awesomeness. You'll just achieve more if you set higher expectations for yourself. With competition increasing every year, you will want to have your accomplishments surpass even your most basic expectations anyway.

concur

 

[Goro]

While at times there's an unhealthily high level of neurosis here, this site is really filled with very helpful and nice people.

The avg MCAT score for MD school acceptees is 31, and the effective floor is 30, but even a 28 can land you a seat if your ECs and GPA are good, and you apply smartly.

The avg GPA is 3.6, but 3.4 is the effective floor (perhaps 3.3 for sGPA), but again, this can vary.

You can get into medical school even if you're a Drama major with the bare minimum of the pre-reqs.

You don't need to win a Nobel Prize, a Cell paper, or end the Arab-Israeli conflict, but you do need to show that you know what you're getting into, that you understand what a doctor's day is like, and that you really want to be around sick people. Plus, you also need to demonstrate some altruism.

So yes, it's difficult, but it you want bad enough, and you work hard enough, you can earn it.

Ask away!

Hi

I've recently discovered this forum website, and almost everywhere I look here, it makes it seem like I won't get into med school unless I have a 3.8+, super hard science classes, outstanding ECs, a few pubs, and about 300 volunteering and shadowing hours.

Is this really that hard to get into med school or is (some) of this forum just crazy?!

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

 

[Doug Underhill]

Yes, it really is that hard. There are lots of 3.8+/33+ applicants with great ECs who interview well every year who walk away with zero acceptances, even though they applied to the right schools.

On the other hand, there are people with 3.4/30s who get in, be it through legacy admissions, URM status, residency in a certain state, or just good old fashioned strength of character. Your GPA and MCAT are key, but they are just one facet of many in your application.

 

[user12]

it's not that hard to get an interview. but an acceptance, yeah it's tough.

 

[EvenStevens]

its all about meeting the basic expectations : gpa, mcat, community service , research etc
then getting lucky.

 

[MrChance2]

80% of it is GPA/MCAT as shown on that table 25 posted here, people who are outside the grades/MCAT norms within a reasonable margin often have masters degrees or a good post bacc GPA, or a strong upward trend. The few people who are way outside the norms might get in through connections but that's pretty rare. People generally overestimate how awesome they are on the internet, so keep that in mind but also realistically overall it is the toughest degree to begin, to complete, and the toughest well defined route to a career I can think of.

Just to add, my dad once told me when he interviews people (in a completely separate industry) he is looking for 3 things. 1. That the candidate can do the job. 2. That they want to do the job. 3. That they are a good fit for the company. I think that pretty much is universal for any interview and you need to completely nail and demonstrate that you have nailed all 3 things to get into medical school which may not be as easy as it sounds.

 

[wondergirl3]

You can get into medical school even if you're a Drama major with the bare minimum of the pre-reqs.

Is this rare or can 9 times out of 10, students get in with the bare minimum if they are solid everywhere else?

 

[NickNaylor]

Is this rare or can 9 times out of 10, students get in with the bare minimum if they are solid everywhere else?

The main concern that I can think of with the scenario @Goro presented is the ability of the applicant to deal with a rigorous curriculum effectively. As long as you can demonstrate that (e.g., with a stellar GPA and/or decent MCAT score), your major really won't matter that much. In some cases it might even be a positive as you bring a degree of "academic diversity" to the class. A surprising number of applicants - at least to my institution - are straight BA biology majors. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's somewhat exciting to see someone that studied something different, particularly something not in the sciences.

 

[G_Marker]

Medical school admissions are really competitive and individual admissions decisions can seem extremely arbitrary for this reason. Remember getting into college? 20% acceptance rates seemed so low! But in medical school you'll find that the low acceptance rates are close to 2%, while the high ones are a whopping 8%. Keep in mind that these applications are extremely expensive, so I am doubtful that there are THAT many people applying who don't have any chance. You're competing with many others who have your same stats. The only way to stand out is to have interesting experiences that you can talk about on your application.

I'm applying this cycle. I've received a mix of rejections and interviews that don't make great sense to me. I've been outright rejected at schools that seemed like they were in my wheel house (in terms of their mission statement and my stats), and I've received interview invitations from a couple schools I thought seemed unlikely to even consider my application. When it comes down to it, the fate of your application at these schools is in the hands of the few people reading your application.

So, yes, it's competitive. But you don't need to cure cancer to get in. You need to have good ECs/Research, solid GPA and MCAT, and you need to apply broadly. Make no assumptions about schools you think you are a "shoe in" at.

 

[Mad Jack]

it's not that hard to get an interview. but an acceptance, yeah it's tough.

50% of interviewees at most schools get accepted. The only reason getting interviews would be easy but no acceptances would come of them is if you have something wrong with your personality or interview extremely poorly.

 

[phunky]

If you're intelligent and motivated, it's really not that hard. Get good grades, do some volunteering, do some research, do well on the MCAT.

Cookie cutter isn't a death sentence the way people make it out to be. It exists for a reason: it works.

 

[Mad Jack]

Over 40% of med school applicants are admitted (50% if you count DO schools). It's hard, but not that hard.

 

[Louis C.K.]

It's difficult. You're among intense competition between incredible people. On the surface, 40% of applicants being accepted doesn't seem so bad, but when you're interviewing and you see these people, you'll understand just how competitive it is. As the wise Goro said, you don't need any huge achievements (although if you have them, it looks NICE), but you need to differentiate yourself from the hoards of other amazingly qualified applicants in some way. It's all about the ECs (given you have good GPA and MCAT) and your communication ability (via writing skills and interview ability). If you ever enter the process thinking it's going to be a picnic, then you are likely in for a rude awakening.

 

[user12]

Over 40% of med school applicants are admitted (50% if you count DO schools). It's hard, but not that hard.

hey man, just to let you know, I wasn't in cahoots with the OP from the drinking thread. I honestly thought his post was kind of funny. im not trying to get banned. not today anyway.

and yeah, getting accepted is hard.

 

[amvet70]

2013
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/
Table 1
48,014 applicants to med schools
20,055 matriculants
(as a note, 58% of applicants did not get accepted anywhere.)

MCAT Tests Administered in 2013
N = 94,907
(in interest of full disclosure….the above “test results for all examinees—not just those who have applied (or are planning to apply) to medical school. They also include multiple test results for examinees who took the MCAT exam more than once during the testing year, but exclude test results for administrations in which examinees opted to void their test scores.”)

So a “typical” premed may have completed 3 years of college, have taken MCAT sometime in third year, took part in hours after hours of extacurriculars, etc to be ready to apply at end of junior year. Instead of looking forward from number of people sitting for MCAT, then number applying, then number matriculating, go back to first day freshman year and ask yourself how many perhaps tens and tens and tens of thousands of eager young minds started out as “premed” and then crashed and burned along the way and never made it to sitting for MCAT, applying to med, or actually starting med school. In the big picture I would say it’s very, very difficult to get into med school.

 

[Goro]

Absolutely! See Nick's post above, with which I concur 100%

Is this rare or can 9 times out of 10, students get in with the bare minimum if they are solid everywhere else?

Also keep in mind that good stats get you to the door, but it's the ECs and your story that get you through the door.

 

[Pacna]

If you're a driven person, getting in isn't really that "hard." When people refer to the difficulty, they're just talking about the volume of things that are expected of you beyond other college students. I played video games ~5 hours per day in college and checked off all of the things I needed to do to get in without issue.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Over 40% of med school applicants are admitted (50% if you count DO schools). It's hard, but not that hard.

40/50 that apply get in. That's after lots of weeding out though. When you look at people that start off pre med and actually end up in med school those are scarier figures. Its not impossible and you don't need to be a genius. But you do need to work hard and as goro once said you need the fire in your belly.

 

[Mad Jack]

40/50 that apply get in. That's after lots of weeding out though. When you look at people that start off pre med and actually end up in med school those are scarier figures. Its not impossible and you don't need to be a genius. But you do need to work hard and as goro once said you need the fire in your belly.

I would be surprised if more than one in ten premeds eventually actually makes it to the point of application.

 

[Pacna]

I would be surprised if more than one in ten premeds eventually actually makes it to the point of application.

Remember freshman classes? My Chem 101 prof asked how many were premed and 2/3 of ~400 people raised their hands. Sad but true!

 

[EvenStevens]

I would be surprised if more than one in ten premeds eventually actually makes it to the point of application.

A LOT of people say they will be pre med but "hate science" so yeah it is very easy to see that number as true

 

[Boolean]

I would be surprised if more than one in ten premeds eventually actually makes it to the point of application.

I'd say around 1/10 sounds reasonable, given a completely average (in every sense) institution. More (or less) given the other factors at play.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I would be surprised if more than one in ten premeds eventually actually makes it to the point of application.

Yep.

How many pre meds are left after gen chem? At my school 1/2 dropped.

How many after ochem?

How many get to the MCAT? How many are left after the MCAT? How many actually apply? Once you get to the final stage then you're at 50 percent odds. Its not impossible but its not a walk in the park

 

[Mad Jack]

Gen chem- 120 students, 95 at end
Gen chem 2- 100 students, 85 at end
Ochem- 40 students, 30 at end
Ochem 2- 25 students, 20 at end

Many of the survivors of Ochem II had such devastated GPAs that even though they passed, applying to medical school wasn't really feasible. I think only 10 of the people in my ochem II class still had plans for med school, and a few of those had remedial work to do for it to even be an option.

 

[Aloft085]

While at times there's an unhealthily high level of neurosis here, this site is really filled with very helpful and nice people.

The avg MCAT score for MD school acceptees is 31, and the effective floor is 30, but even a 28 can land you a seat if your ECs and GPA are good, and you apply smartly.

The avg GPA is 3.6, but 3.4 is the effective floor (perhaps 3.3 for sGPA), but again, this can vary.

You can get into medical school even if you're a Drama major with the bare minimum of the pre-reqs.

You don't need to win a Nobel Prize, a Cell paper, or end the Arab-Israeli conflict, but you do need to show that you know what you're getting into, that you understand what a doctor's day is like, and that you really want to be around sick people. Plus, you also need to demonstrate some altruism.

So yes, it's difficult, but it you want bad enough, and you work hard enough, you can earn it.

Ask away!

There's a bit of misinformation in your numbers. If you check out the AAMC's statistics here, you'll see that the effective 'floors' for both GPA and MCAT are substantially lower than you think. The category of 24-26 MCAT have an acceptance rate of 37.5%. For a GPA of 3.00-3.19 the acceptance rate is 15.3%, and 22.9% for a 3.20-3.39 GPA. Considering that the overall rate is around 45%, those are non-trivial numbers. Those are also the stats for white people, and you can almost double them if you're black or latino.

Something that is important to keep in mind is that these numbers are largely for traditional students. If you bring something unique and different to the fight, you may have better odds. For example, a previous career or an additional degree.

 

[Aloft085]

50% of interviewees at most schools get accepted. The only reason getting interviews would be easy but no acceptances would come of them is if you have something wrong with your personality or interview extremely poorly.

Depends on the school, really. I was at one recently that interviews around 1200 people for 200 slots. From the interviews that I've had so far, I'd place my odds at getting into each individual school at 25%-50% based on statistics alone.

 

[Aloft085]

Remember freshman classes? My Chem 101 prof asked how many were premed and 2/3 of ~400 people raised their hands. Sad but true!

True, but the conversion also goes the other direction. I was an engineering guy that looked at the requirements and was like "Hey, I only need like 3 additional classes and a test to apply to med school! That would be cool." Although we're likely a far smaller percentage.

 

[Mad Jack]

Depends on the school, really. I was at one recently that interviews around 1200 people for 200 slots. From the interviews that I've had so far, I'd place my odds at getting into each individual school at 25%-50% based on statistics alone.

Most schools offer roughly 3 acceptances for every seat, as many students choose to attend other institutions. So that number of interviews for that many seats fits pretty well.

 

[Goro]

Those stats get skewed by schools in the midwest and south which are both very IS selective and have lower numbers.

Use MSAR to gauge what things really are. Applicants with lower numbers outside of LA or GA aren't going to have much luck with LSU or Mercer.

There's a bit of misinformation in your numbers. If you check out the AAMC's statistics here, you'll see that the effective 'floors' for both GPA and MCAT are substantially lower than you think. The category of 24-26 MCAT have an acceptance rate of 37.5%. For a GPA of 3.00-3.19 the acceptance rate is 15.3%, and 22.9% for a 3.20-3.39 GPA. Considering that the overall rate is around 45%, those are non-trivial numbers. Those are also the stats for white people, and you can almost double them if you're black or latino.

Something that is important to keep in mind is that these numbers are largely for traditional students. If you bring something unique and different to the fight, you may have better odds. For example, a previous career or an additional degree.

 

[Aloft085]

Those stats get skewed by schools in the midwest and south which are both very IS selective and have lower numbers.

Use MSAR to gauge what things really are. Applicants with lower numbers outside of LA or GA aren't going to have much luck with LSU or Mercer.

The MSAR is helpful, but it doesn't tell you the entire picture. The numbers are limited to the 10th-90th percentile, for example. Going to actual interviews, they'll often give you the actual range. I remember one school had a GPA range from like 2.7 to 4.0. You should be careful about speaking of a 'floor', which may discourage someone who is actually competitive.

 

[efle]

That makes no sense, there is a floor for 90+% of applicants which you can talk about
Just because one well-connected URM got into their state school with a 2.7 and 22 does not mean there is no floor at the low 3's and high 20s

 

[Goro]

People who fit in the 10th %ile have something really outstanding going on, whether it's a compelling life story, a significant achievement, a massive upward trend or redemption via post-bac/SMP, some killer ECs, or URM status.

The generic low stats candidate is wasting their time and money and the rah-rah Polyanna "you can do it" mindset does not do any good.

That's why one needs to be realistic when viewing those numbers and not concluding "Oh, I have 20% chance of getting in because someone with those numbers got into Pitt!"

Compared to the pool of candidates, someone with a 3.0 GPA is not competitive, unless they've got something else in their packet.

The MSAR is helpful, but it doesn't tell you the entire picture. The numbers are limited to the 10th-90th percentile, for example. Going to actual interviews, they'll often give you the actual range. I remember one school had a GPA range from like 2.7 to 4.0. You should be careful about speaking of a 'floor', which may discourage someone who is actually competitive.

Oh, yes it does! This is where taking a stats class can be useful. Look at the median scores for individual schools, and then the range. The bell-shaped curves are quite narrow, even if the range from, say, Drexel is wide.

Just because one well-connected URM got into their state school with a 2.7 and 22 does not mean there is no floor at the low 3's and high 20s

 

[Shams al Deen]

I think its very hard, especially considering how difficult those premed classes are for your average American college student. Like others have pointed out, simply saying there is a 40% acceptance rate is misleading because it fails to take into account the premeds who weren't able to make it to AMCAS. It's like judging the difficulty of making the NBA by only taking into account the success of the players entering the draft. Obviously that measurement would be flawed because it disregards the difficulty of simply making it to the point to be eligible for the NBA draft. And of course, its infinitely harder (and takes much more hard work and talent) to make the NBA than to get accepted to med school, but the analogy holds.

I think applying broadly is the most important factor, even for strong MD applicants. This process is a crap shoot and you cannot rely on 'safety schools' or even state schools to accept you. I'd recommend at least 15-20 schools unless you're 40+/4.0 guy.

 

[alpinism]

The vast majority of those 2.7 GPAs and 24 MCATs are from applicants with only one but not both.

They'll have a 2.7/32 or a 3.8/24.

Usually they are URM/disadvantaged students with great ECs getting into low tier state schools like U Arkansas or U Mississippi.

As stated above, a select few with low GPAs and MCATs are accepted every year, but there are usually connections involved.

For the average non URM applicant with normal ECs who is not from those states, you'll need at least a 3.6/30 to be competitive for MD schools.

To have a good shot you'd ideally want a 3.7/32 or higher.

 

[malick1]

take 100 students give random numbers between 3.6gpa and 4.0gpa to 99 of them and MCAT scores from 32-43 to 99 of them and to 1 of them give a 2.5gpa and a MCAT of 25, and then take the avg MCAT and GPA for all students !

 

[AlteredScale]

The MSAR is helpful, but it doesn't tell you the entire picture. The numbers are limited to the 10th-90th percentile, for example. Going to actual interviews, they'll often give you the actual range. I remember one school had a GPA range from like 2.7 to 4.0. You should be careful about speaking of a 'floor', which may discourage someone who is actually competitive.

The MSAR omits anything below the 10th percentile because they aren't competitive and are the exception to that school. If they added it then it would make many students with 2.7 foolishly apply because they see the number there.

 

[ProudMD]

I agree with everyone above. If you are an average applicant, you want to have a 3.6/31 in order to be "safe".

 

[malick1]

The MSAR omits anything below the 10th percentile because they aren't competitive and are the exception to that school. If they added it then it would make many students with 2.7 foolishly apply because they see the number there.

But there are students that have 2.7 and even lower and apply despite the MSAR, and still get into US Allopathic schools if their other elements of their applications are good

Do not get influence by some people in SDN who, believe they are known it all about admissions ! even the adcoms in here, while their input is greatly appreciated, do not represent all School, and don't show the full picture.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

But there are students that have 2.7 and even lower and apply despite the MSAR, and still get into US Allopathic schools if their other elements of their applications are good

Do not get influence by some people in SDN who, believe they are known it all about admissions ! even the adcoms in here, while their input is greatly appreciated, do not represent all School, and don't show the full picture.

Good? They would have to be expectional. URM/amazing MCAT/publications/amazing ECs. Or more likely they just had connections. If you tell someone who has a 2.7 they have a chance its just bad advice

 

[efle]

Oh, yes it does! This is where taking a stats class can be useful. Look at the median scores for individual schools, and then the range. The bell-shaped curves are quite narrow, even if the range from, say, Drexel is wide.

What? Even at the lowest stat schools a 22 or 2.7 is horrible. There clearly is a floor around 3.2 and 27