Is notifying patients of an extended wait time a violation of some sort?

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I agree with 24s versus 8s. I did one small block of 24s and will never do it again. Usually at night there are just enough patients coming in that you don't get real sleep. That leads to burnout.

I like 8s a lot because it's really a 7-hour shift if you have an overlap at the end. That being said, they are not efficient for getting paid enough. I'd rather work 14 twelve hour shifts a month, than 20 8 hour shifts and get paid the same.

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I agree with 24s versus 8s. I did one small block of 24s and will never do it again. Usually at night there are just enough patients coming in that you don't get real sleep. That leads to burnout.

I like 8s a lot because it's really a 7-hour shift if you have an overlap at the end. That being said, they are not efficient for getting paid enough. I'd rather work 14 twelve hour shifts a month, than 20 8 hour shifts and get paid the same.

It depends on what you do outside of your shifts. For example, if you live in Denver and ski outside your shifts, 12s are better because the ski resorts are too far away to ski and work an 8 the same day. But if you live in Salt Lake, you can ski 3-4 hours in the morning before an evening shift or in the afternoon before a night shift because the mountains are closer.

Of course, 20 8s and 14 12s both sound really painful to me! At $250 an hour, that $500K. I think I'd rather work 2/3ds that and make 2/3ds the money.
 
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It depends on what you do outside of your shifts. For example, if you live in Denver and ski outside your shifts, 12s are better because the ski resorts are too far away to ski and work an 8 the same day. But if you live in Salt Lake, you can ski 3-4 hours in the morning before an evening shift or in the afternoon before a night shift because the mountains are closer.

Of course, 20 8s and 14 12s both sound really painful to me! At $250 an hour, that $500K. I think I'd rather work 2/3ds that and make 2/3ds the money.

Having done both I can say that the 20 8s is far more painful.
 
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As I am prone to say, if I have to eat the **** sandwich, I'm taking BIG bites.
Assuming you HAVE to eat the WHOLE sandwich. Otherwise, pass it to the left hand side...
 
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N=1, my program is split between true inner city and a truly privileged upper class hospital.

The inner city people are much more crude and have a higher rate of trying to malinger and opiate seek. ... but the overall community is SO MUCH more thankful of what I do and understands very well if I tell them that there isn't much I can do except treat symptomatically.

The well off community is so insufferably entitled. There is one room with a broken tv. Storming out of the ER or asking for the AOD by name (how can they all know who the AOD is?) is crazy common in that room. They freak out to be put in a room with no tv. The other hospital has no TVs and much longer wait times and everyone just chills there and plays with their phone for hours waiting for their CT.
Presby? The ED at Cornell looks freaking gorgeous. The one at Columbia looks like you're in Soviet Russia.
 
Holy $hit. I just got back home (had to run errands) and clicked the embedded "Pass the Dutchie" video. I remember this now. Whooaaahhh...
 
For a fun time acquire the following:
1) your favorite adult beverage
2) someone with a fine appreciation of the absurd
3) a Youtube play list of 80's videos (new wave being a good starting point but anything by Duran Duran works)

Watch as you lose an evening down the rabbit hole. "Safety Dance" and "Total Eclipse of the Heart" in particular have spectacular videos.
 
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For a fun time acquire the following:
1) your favorite adult beverage
2) someone with a fine appreciation of the absurd
3) a Youtube play list of 80's videos (new wave being a good starting point but anything by Duran Duran works)

Watch as you lose an evening down the rabbit hole. "Safety Dance" and "Total Eclipse of the Heart" in particular have spectacular videos.

Darken the city, night is a wire
Steam in the subway, earth is a afire
Do do do do do do do dodo dododo dodo

 
Is notifying [my entitled] patients of an extended wait time a violation of some sort? (This would be the nurse or secretary letting them know...)

Is this kosher or not?

It's been construed as an EMTALA violation. You absolutely can't and shouldn't be telling anyone what the wait time is out front, or the hospital is opening itself up to an EMTALA violation, which will bring down the pain of federal oversight into the ED and hospital to an uncomfortable degree. Once they have a reason to investigate the hospital, they can look at EVERYTHING you do. Best not to get smacked down by the feds in the first place.

You can post wait times on a billboard off hospital grounds, because that's an advertisement targeting people who have yet to present to the hospital. Once a patient presents to the ED, telling them anything that would disuade them from waiting for a medical screening exam (MSE) is an EMTALA violation. Not only can you get slapped with a huge personal fine that insurance doesn't cover, but again it opens up the floodgates of investigation.

Now once the patient has a MSE, say from a midlevel or doc in triage if your hospital operates that way, you can tell them whatever you want assuming they've been deemed to be without an emergent condition needing stablized by the MSE.

Another example of this that has come up recently is ED pain guidelines. If an ED adopts a pain policy restricting narcotic prescriptions for chronic pain (ie, we won't refill your script, give you a shot of dilaudid for your chronic pain, etc) and has the local paper print a story about their guidelines, or takes out an ad announcing them, that's ok. If the same ED puts a sign in the waiting room where patients can see them before getting an MSE, that has been construed as an EMTALA violation.

It all has to do with what the patient is told in the period after they present to the ED, but before they get an MSE. What is announced to the public who hasn't come to the hospital, or what you say to someone after they get an MSE and are "stabilized" is all fair game.

Hope that helps.
 
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After working at both types of hospitals, I've also had the same experience. You get entitled patients at every hospital, but its generally the upper class folks who have unrealistic expectations of the ED. Its far more common for them to complain about waiting, demand specific tests, or ask to be seen by a specialist.

As an example, at one upper class hospital, it was almost a daily occurrence to have patients refuse to tell us their medical history because "I already told the nurse and I'm not repeating myself again" or "Where's the doctor I saw here last week? Just ask them" or "Its all in my medical chart so why don't you read it before coming in my room."

And this is all while the patient continues to watch TV the whole time...

But if you're coming in because you tweaked your knee on your ritzy vacation and want an MRI and to see an orthopedic surgeon at midnight...well, I don't have much patience.

I'm interested in hearing how some of you deal with some of these patients. I'm talking examples here. Presumably these hospitals/groups are way more interested in your press ganey scores than the "40% medicaid 40% self pay" shops, and it seems like no matter how you diffuse these situations, you're gonna take a hit no matter what.

Do you sometimes just order the MRI and be done with it? Do you painstakingly explain why the patient needs to tell you their PMH "again" because this time it's the doctor in the room, you know, the reason you came here in the first place?
 
I'm interested in hearing how some of you deal with some of these patients. I'm talking examples here. Presumably these hospitals/groups are way more interested in your press ganey scores than the "40% medicaid 40% self pay" shops, and it seems like no matter how you diffuse these situations, you're gonna take a hit no matter what.

Do you sometimes just order the MRI and be done with it? Do you painstakingly explain why the patient needs to tell you their PMH "again" because this time it's the doctor in the room, you know, the reason you came here in the first place?

So for the MRI, the script goes something on the lines of "I don't have the ability to get an MRI in the ED unless it's a condition that would lead to paralysis. Here is the number of a fantastic orthopedist who will be able to see you in the next day or two."

I shouldn't give this away since if it's widely adopted it's going to make the raw number required to get a 90% PG go up but here's the secret on repeated history taking. It's not necessarily that the patient is super pissed about repeating themselves. Seriously, if you ever have the time, let a patient give a free form history and watch as they repeat the same historical points 2-3 times in the space of a minute. What does set the patient on edge is the idea that they wasted their time answering the nurses' questions prior to seeing you. The pro-tip here not to open with "What brings you in today?" or "How can I help you?"

Instead -
"Hi, I'm [first name] [lastname]. I'm the emergency doctor. I'm going to take very good care of you. <shakes hand> The nurse told me that [summarize chief complaint/HPI from triage note]. [Ask historical question that's not normally captured by nurse - current favorite is "What were you doing when the symptoms started" for non URI complaints"] [Backfill remaining HPI/PMHx]
 
I blame it on "them" or "the hospital" or "the administration", who will only let me get an MRI for certain conditions (that aren't what the patient has). I tell them that the surgeon is not in the hospital, and that I can only call them to come in at night for something that is life-threatening. And then, and I think this is the key, is that I really play up how seriously concerned I am about whatever their problem:

"This is clearly a very significant knee injury and definitely needs to be taken care of soon, but you don't need to have surgery immediately. Fortunately, we have time to have you go see the specialist in his clinic. His ability to examine your knee is actually better after a few days once the swelling and muscle spasm starts to resolve. Then he can figure out exactly what type of MRI you need - I don't want to put you through a long test when it turns out not to be the right one. I'll give you the phone number of the orthopedic doctor on call, but you should also ask your primary doctor who to see - they might know someone better, and I can only send you to the person on call."

They don't want to feel like you're blowing them off, even if you are. By emphasizing that you think the problem is serious and that their care and outcomes will actually be *better* by going through the usual channels, you can usually mollify them. Go back in the room frequently to give them updates - "I just wanted to let you know that I looked at your x-rays and they look alright, but I also paged the radiologist to look at them because I want to be really sure." - even when irrelevant. It's all about making them think they're the most important patient there and that you're really doing a lot of stuff for them. Even if you're not. I've had close to 100% success with the fawning-all-over-them approach.

Although if the person was really well enough connected that they could get a C-suite executive on the phone, I'd just do whatever test they wanted. But at least I could tell the radiologist that they were calling the MRI tech in because the CEO requested it, not me.
 
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Instead -
"Hi, I'm [first name] [lastname]. I'm the emergency doctor. I'm going to take very good care of you. <shakes hand> The nurse told me that [summarize chief complaint/HPI from triage note]. [Ask historical question that's not normally captured by nurse - current favorite is "What were you doing when the symptoms started" for non URI complaints"] [Backfill remaining HPI/PMHx]

Appreciate the tips! Interestingly I don't think you gotta worry about your PG regarding this because I actually do the same thing with my introduction.

I try to use "excellent" care in there to anchor the word that correlates with the highest PG ratings.

I stopped asking open ended questions a long time ago because it results in a low signal to noise ratio.
 
It's been construed as an EMTALA violation. You absolutely can't and shouldn't be telling anyone what the wait time is out front, or the hospital is opening itself up to an EMTALA violation, which will bring down the pain of federal oversight into the ED and hospital to an uncomfortable degree. Once they have a reason to investigate the hospital, they can look at EVERYTHING you do. Best not to get smacked down by the feds in the first place.

You can post wait times on a billboard off hospital grounds, because that's an advertisement targeting people who have yet to present to the hospital. Once a patient presents to the ED, telling them anything that would disuade them from waiting for a medical screening exam (MSE) is an EMTALA violation. Not only can you get slapped with a huge personal fine that insurance doesn't cover, but again it opens up the floodgates of investigation.

Now once the patient has a MSE, say from a midlevel or doc in triage if your hospital operates that way, you can tell them whatever you want assuming they've been deemed to be without an emergent condition needing stablized by the MSE.

Another example of this that has come up recently is ED pain guidelines. If an ED adopts a pain policy restricting narcotic prescriptions for chronic pain (ie, we won't refill your script, give you a shot of dilaudid for your chronic pain, etc) and has the local paper print a story about their guidelines, or takes out an ad announcing them, that's ok. If the same ED puts a sign in the waiting room where patients can see them before getting an MSE, that has been construed as an EMTALA violation.

It all has to do with what the patient is told in the period after they present to the ED, but before they get an MSE. What is announced to the public who hasn't come to the hospital, or what you say to someone after they get an MSE and are "stabilized" is all fair game.

Hope that helps.

I'm not arguing the perception, but do you know of any actual EMTALA violations that have been handed out for these specific situations?
 
I'll be honest, I don't have any idea how you could find public information about EMTALA violations that have been handed out. I, thankfully, have not been involved in any.

I know that several state CMS departments have said that publishing pain guidelines in waiting rooms "could be construed as an EMTALA violation". Whether anyone has been cited or not, I don't know. But the perception is there, and people have been warned.

I'd encourage anyone to ask their chairman or hospitals risk management about any of this. I guarantee they will tell you not to tell people in the waiting room that there are long wait times. It's absolutely going to be perceived as a way to encourage people to leave without being seen.

Triage personnel such as triage nurses and registration clerks account for a large percentage of EMTALA violations. I'd be very careful with what is said/done out there before the MSE happens. When in doubt, ask risk management.
 
Appreciate the tips! Interestingly I don't think you gotta worry about your PG regarding this because I actually do the same thing with my introduction.

I try to use "excellent" care in there to anchor the word that correlates with the highest PG ratings.

I stopped asking open ended questions a long time ago because it results in a low signal to noise ratio.
At least for our PG surveys, a 5 is "very good" not excellent.
 
At least for our PG surveys, a 5 is "very good" not excellent.

It's a sad commentary on humans as a species if planting subliminal messages like: "We will take VERY GOOD care of you" can lead to an increase in patients who circle "5" on the survey.
 
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It's a sad commentary on humans as a species if planting subliminal messages like: "We will take VERY GOOD care of you" can lead to an increase in patients who circle "5" on the survey.

Sad, but effective and frequently recommended in EM management books/literature.


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