Is the academic intensity of Medical School anything like studying for the MCAT

[QofQuimica]

Super negative people thread!

Bennie, you know I think you're a funny guy, and most of the time you are. But this is definitely one of those times where you shouldn't kick a guy like Tri while he's down.

I've done a LOT of other jobs. And many have involved hard work, long hours, etc. But medicine is different. If you don't like it, it's not something that is like a construction job. You can't just leave it at the doorstep. It's exhausting. It's soul-sucking. And if you don't love it, that's exactly how it feels. If you DO love your work it's exhilarating. But if you don't love medicine, you're going to be miserable. Every day. And not "gee, I don't like my job" miserable. I'm talking "I hate my job, I suck at my job because I won't keep on top of the advances in the field because I hate my job, my patients are suffering because i hate my job, and it's WAAAAAAAAAAY more than a 40 hour a week soul-sucking asteroid from which there is no escape - worse than a crazy ex-wife" kind of miserable existence.

However, if you pre-meds think you know differently, go for it. You asked for our opinions. You got 'em. That's the deal. Take it or leave it.

Oh, and by the way, as a patient I want a physician with a soul. I don't want an MHB syndrome person being my doc. And I don't plan on being an MHB physician when I graduate in 6 months either. (MHB: miserable human being)

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[EricH]

Ehhh I had a 36M and was never asked about the M.

That might be because you had a 36 ....which is pretty damn good

It's like a guy with a 44L being asked "tell me about the L".....come to think of it, I bet that WOULD get a question.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Bennie, you know I think you're a funny guy, and most of the time you are. But this is definitely one of those times where you shouldn't kick a guy like Tri while he's down.

If I offend, I apologize.

 

[ZachAttack83]

Search army training push up pull up programs, there are some really good ones. Also you can use jumps and plyometrics.

Yeah plyo! High intensity but so much fun. I am a huge fan of P90X, check it out of you're into working out at home. Its great for people like me who live in wintery areas like wisconsin. I did the Plyometrics video today and man did I feel the burn in my legs while doing those jumps

 

[scurred09]

Don't hijack this thread. Your comment had nothing to do with the thread.

Yeah plyo! High intensity but so much fun. I am a huge fan of P90X, check it out of you're into working out at home. Its great for people like me who live in wintery areas like wisconsin. I did the Plyometrics video today and man did I feel the burn in my legs while doing those jumps

 

[doctorperez]

It's worse, because there's more material and the material is less interesting. At least physics and general chemistry are mainly problem-solving, and even in organic chemistry and biology there are concepts to understand and think through. Medical school is just 90% straight-up facts to memorize with no thinking whatsoever. Medical school is for type-A overachieving arrogant egocentric jerks who have no patience, no character, and no interest in anything but memorizing biological facts and then gunning for honors by spouting them off in front of attendings. If you like thinking or actually have a soul, you'll hate medical school.

I agree almost 100%, well put!

 

[Sainttpk]

I have read many of your post and respect your honesty. What's sad to me is when people invest so much in medicine in exchange for delayed gratification that may never happen. Med. School is best for those who start early; honesty I think it was designed for the fresh out of college people. Due to the shortage of docs, medical school began taking non-trads. And most non trads are OLDer applicants which I think are not ideal to be pursuing medical school.

No offense but you are an idiot. 30 is hardly old for med school.

 

[scurred09]

I'm an idiot because I think 30 is not ideal for medical school? You must be >30.

No offense but you are an idiot. 30 is hardly old for med school.

 

[BennieBlanco]

I have no doubt that older students/applicants can do well in medical school. My argument is that medical school were orginally designed for younger students. Otherwise where did the word "non-traditional" applicant come from?

How true is the above? Time changed my dear. What you should have stated was that "people want to really know that their insurance company are there for them". Physician autonomy and control over their pt care is slowly being taken a way due to our ailing healthcare system. Wake up.

I have read many of your post and respect your honesty. What's sad to me is when people invest so much in medicine in exchange for delayed gratification that may never happen. Med. School is best for those who start early; honesty I think it was designed for the fresh out of college people. Due to the shortage of docs, medical school began taking non-trads. And most non trads are OLDer applicants which I think are not ideal to be pursuing medical school.

No offense but you are an idiot. 30 is hardly old for med school.

I'm an idiot because I think 30 is not ideal for medical school? You must be >30.

settle down you two.

Scurred, I can't say I agree that medical school is for a certain group of people. It is designed for doctors not for an age group. Yes, traditionally students go after college BUT traditionally people get married younger too, is marriage for people under 30 or 40? Nope. It's for a man and woman (oops, not in all states)

In other words, everyone is unique. You can let them be unique and your life will still be ok

It is funny how people try to assign their worldview to the universe.

"I THINK __ is too old for medical school, this isn't opinion it is fact, everyone in the world should agree."

When you start to deal successfully with more people in your life you will realize there are lots of ideas and opinions outside of your own.

the term "non-traditional" refers to the applicants not being traditional, just like minority refers to the person being in a minority group (not in all states, again) This is really just silly internet talk that wastes time!

 

[Trismegistus4]

And Tris., if you aren't into it, and you are into your clerkship years and still don't like it, I'd say there is an EXCELLENT chance you may end up doing your patients and families and colleagues a great inservice--even if you truly don't want to--even if you remain basically competent in practice.
People want to really know that their physicians, even specialists, are there for them. They want to believe you are into what you are doing and you are sufficiently into them, so to speak. I've been a nurse and a patient advocate long enough to KNOW this. Some may fool pts and families, at least long enough, or for a while. But that's often because people feel vulnerable, and they want to believe. If you happen to have more than a few interactions with them though, they will end up picking up on the level of true focus and sincerity.

Well, I've already said that I'm open to non-clinical careers. What more can I do? If I quit now, in this economy with 10% unemployment, how would I make the payments on the $125,000 I've already borrowed that would come due?

Ok, I like you and your posts so I won't do my typical smart ass answer



No problems so far!



OUCH! Negative time. Ok, you have just said that medical school is for egotistical jerks, i.e. the people you sit in class with all day.

Why is this negative? I believe in calling it how you see it, BUT you have the opportunity to chose what you call. This person has chosen to talk about ... people they don't like. When this person thinks medical school, they think it is for jerks (unlike his/herself) that have... NO SOUL!

What? so because you think someone is a jerk you now get to make a slew of judgments on their character and soul. WOW. And on top of that, there is a lot of emotion (limited resource) invested in this statement.

It is one thing to say people have questionable character, another thing completely to do that.

Venting is good but what you vent about tells us a lot about you. Having a bunch of animosity towards your classmates is NOT appealing and should be kept to yourself.

Ben Franklin:


unfortunately I can't keep this advice because I have a bit of a hot head inside of myself! But I'm getting better every year. I'm more toned down than I was 3 years ago, I assure you that! GOOD DAY SIR.

My post was a bit hyperbolic. I assure you, my priority in posting here is the hope that people who are like me, who are where I was a few years ago, making the decision to pursue medicine, will consider some of the things I dismissed. My classmates aren't all truly jerks. What affects me is knowing how when we started first year, I was no different from them, we were all in the same place, equally knowing nothing about medicine, and how I kept up with them for a little while, but even during first year began to fall behind, as I simply had too many other interests outside of medicine, while they single-mindedly studied almost every hour of every day, totally focused on mastering medical knowledge. Now there is this huge gap between us. They have done well on Step I, are possessed of this enormous encyclopedia of biomedical trivia in their heads, take great pride in knowing it, are able to recite it in front of attendings so they can impress them and get honors--and I am not. A scant 2 years after we all started together, they are now a different kind of person than I. They are on the inside of medicine while I still feel on the outside. And one of the things that distinguishes an insider from an outsider is this sort of disdain that the insiders have for those who do not have the True Knowledge (TM), especially those who are supposed to have it but have failed to attain it, for they are the Incompetent. Although I have not directly humiliated myself in front of my classmates, just from knowing them I have an acute sense of how much they would look down on me if they knew how out-of-it I am.

I just want all those out there, the Trismegistus4's of 5 years ago, to know that if you go to medical school, your two options are 1) becoming that kind of person, or 2) failure.

Bennie, you know I think you're a funny guy, and most of the time you are. But this is definitely one of those times where you shouldn't kick a guy like Tri while he's down.

I have thick skin by now. I'm merely bemused when pre-meds think they know better than I do.

I've done a LOT of other jobs. And many have involved hard work, long hours, etc. But medicine is different. If you don't like it, it's not something that is like a construction job. You can't just leave it at the doorstep. It's exhausting. It's soul-sucking. And if you don't love it, that's exactly how it feels. If you DO love your work it's exhilarating. But if you don't love medicine, you're going to be miserable. Every day. And not "gee, I don't like my job" miserable. I'm talking "I hate my job, I suck at my job because I won't keep on top of the advances in the field because I hate my job, my patients are suffering because i hate my job, and it's WAAAAAAAAAAY more than a 40 hour a week soul-sucking asteroid from which there is no escape - worse than a crazy ex-wife" kind of miserable existence.

However, if you pre-meds think you know differently, go for it. You asked for our opinions. You got 'em. That's the deal. Take it or leave it.

What's so sad is that, as I said in the "is medical school worth it for nontrads" thread, if people have decided for whatever reason that they are going to do this, they can always find excuses as to why the above doesn't apply to them. It's certainly what I did.

 

[thepoopologist]

My post was a bit hyperbolic. I assure you, my priority in posting here is the hope that people who are like me, who are where I was a few years ago, making the decision to pursue medicine, will consider some of the things I dismissed. My classmates aren't all truly jerks. What affects me is knowing how when we started first year, I was no different from them, we were all in the same place, equally knowing nothing about medicine, and how I kept up with them for a little while, but even during first year began to fall behind, as I simply had too many other interests outside of medicine, while they single-mindedly studied almost every hour of every day, totally focused on mastering medical knowledge. Now there is this huge gap between us. They have done well on Step I, are possessed of this enormous encyclopedia of biomedical trivia in their heads, take great pride in knowing it, are able to recite it in front of attendings so they can impress them and get honors--and I am not. A scant 2 years after we all started together, they are now a different kind of person than I. They are on the inside of medicine while I still feel on the outside. And one of the things that distinguishes an insider from an outsider is this sort of disdain that the insiders have for those who do not have the True Knowledge (TM), especially those who are supposed to have it but have failed to attain it, for they are the Incompetent. Although I have not directly humiliated myself in front of my classmates, just from knowing them I have an acute sense of how much they would look down on me if they knew how out-of-it I am.

I just want all those out there, the Trismegistus4's of 5 years ago, to know that if you go to medical school, your two options are 1) becoming that kind of person, or 2) failure.

I disagree. I can't speak for my classmates but I have many different interests as well. I simply decided to put them on the backburner after I struggled on my first set of exams and decided to go balls out the rest of the semester. The fear of not making it made me realize how much I wanted to be here, and the feeling of not being on par with my classmates made me want to study more. When that goes away then I am truly ****ed.

I'm sorry, but I've kept up with your posts for awhile and I'd take your outlook more seriously had you worked hard during school and still felt the same way. At this point it sounds like you're rationalizing for playing a lot of video games your first two years. For instance, my natural proclivities are sleeping, reading, writing, photography, watching movies and eating sweets. Had I did that this semester instead of studying, my initial thought would not be that medicine wasn't for me and that my true calling was the novelist/photographer career, but that I was lazy. Had I studied balls to the walls and was continuously underperforming in comparison to my classmates, and was unable to recall basic concepts related to my classes even after putting in many hours a day (or if I was the **** in preclinicals, which I'm not right now, and ran around with my thumb up my ass during two years of clincials), then I would start to question if I was in the right field.

That being said, I would not have had the motivation to pull through had I not wanted to become a doctor in the first place. Here's my 0.02. If someone wants to be a physician, then they should go to med school and work whatever life they want around it. And I mean physician, not med student, which is just another stop along the way as far as I'm concerned. I read on SDN a lot "if you can see yourself doing something else, than do that instead," and my answer to that is I do see myself doing something else, but I do enjoy science to a certain degree and nothing else has the pull on me that this does, however slight of an edge. If medicine doesn't work out, then I will do the next thing I enjoy, which is writing, but until then I'm going to bust balls and let the chips fall where they will.

 

[Heidiho]

What's so sad is that, as I said in the "is medical school worth it for nontrads" thread, if people have decided for whatever reason that they are going to do this, they can always find excuses as to why the above doesn't apply to them. It's certainly what I did.

I don't necessarily think it's people making excuses as to why "the above" doesn't apply to them. Everyone is different. Your experience is your experience. I believe everything you say as it pertains to you. I am sure it would also hold true for many people. But it won't hold true for everyone. I've had 3 or 4 MDs .....mostly older generation, for whatever that is worth, tell me the same
things you have. They are full of gloom and doom and gloom and doom, ad nauseum.
I've had several MDs, either that I went to undergrad with, or that I work for, tell me I should absolutely do it, and frankly, they didn't think med school was all that hard. (their words, not mine)
You are absolutely correct. For some people it is a mistake. For some, it's not. Anybody can only make their best informed guess as to where they fall on that continuum. Mistakes will be made, or not. Decisions will be regretted, or not. This is true in any profession.....really, in any life decision. Would you just look at that pesky divorce rate????
The failure of any given person not to heed your particular advice does not make them guilty of "making excuses". It either makes them mistaken, foolish, or just different than you. Only time will tell which is which.


Oh......and re: the "over 30" comment from someone else........

I am 40, accepted to 2 schools so far.......and I can promise you that the majority of the people below me in the class rank will be those recent college grads who are the ones med school is "intended for". Ha!
And yeah, I'm sure there will be a several ranked above me as well. This doesn't concern me in the least.
When you are a little older, perhaps, you will learn that a number is just a number.....whether you are talking about age, money, class rank, whatever....... I have yet to discover anything truly meaningful in life that could be thus described.
And now, even though I am snowed in, I have other things to do this evening, so I am signing off.
And to all a good night......

 

[jl lin]

Well, I've already said that I'm open to non-clinical careers. What more can I do? If I quit now, in this economy with 10% unemployment, how would I make the payments on the $125,000 I've already borrowed that would come due?


What's so sad is that, as I said in the "is medical school worth it for nontrads" thread, if people have decided for whatever reason that they are going to do this, they can always find excuses as to why the above doesn't apply to them. It's certainly what I did.

Tris,

I'll say it again . . . I believe that you may indeed be in the throes of primary or secondary major depression. Nothing can be clearly sorted through in balance and clarity when this is the case.
Mostly your perspective is very one-sided negative—projected from your situation or directed to others. It's that either/or dynamic that can be seen I believe too much with many folks—that is, all is dark and gray—rather than the honest realization that life is perpetually moving and is simultaneous gray and bright. Life is always filled with continuously cycling negatives and positives. A loss of the ability or openness to be grateful and thankful demonstrates lack of health and wellness. It has been show that in general those that are healthier overall tend to be more grateful and appreciative of the positive things in their lives as well as the positive things in the lives of others. In contrast, those that are predominately negative can't find the good in things in their lives, are bitter and/or also resentful, and are w/o genuine gratitude and as such are less healthy.

I'm not assigning blame or judgment. I don't know what has come first with you—a primary physiological condition that sets you up for depression, OR dominated by psycho-social-emotion issues that lead to changes biochemically that cause depression, or if it is some combination of both. Whatever the cause, it seems it is something that YOU have to sort out and deal with—and IMHO, unless you are able to rule out major depression (anxiety and agitation often is associated w/it), you can't really look at this whole situation of yours fairly or in balance and clarity. It's like you have all this internal noise that's drowning out everything else.

How can you see what's really going on with you until you address this as honestly as possible? No one goes through all the hoops that you did just to get girls. Dear Lord there are zillions of other ways to get more affirmation and attention from the opposite sex—and without the same amount of wait-time. MBAs and those moving upward in business get loads of attention.

You just keep telling yourself this, yet are ignoring that there was a lot more to your career choice than that—just as there is more r/t your downward trend in school and in your life in general than simply hating the drudgery of medical school schoolwork. Every road has tons of drudgery on it. This is the reality of life. There are no perfectly easy paths—and those that seem to start out on the easier path often find that the trials of life catch up even with them.


Yep. ‘It rains on the just and the unjust.' And based on what you shared about your past, I don't believe you approached this work without the understanding that it is service-oriented—and really to those of a certain faith, all in life is service/stewardship-oriented. "The master of all is the servant of all." Not everyone gets that; but those of a certain, deeper faith do get this.

It's rare that we are ever truly happier and more filled with joy than when we are giving of ourselves to others—even though at times it is so draining and people need to have balance and not get totally wiped out by it. They need to take care of themselves so that they can continue to give. But I digress. . . .

And have you considered that it may be more than a little unfair to advise people on the "miseries of medical school, and perhaps medicine" when all in your life and within you is so out of balance that you can't truly evaluate and advise from a place of wellness, balance clarity? You spin has major bias that extends from perhaps a least in part a great lack of wellness. Until you sort this out from deep inside you, you're not in a position to advise people w/ any soundness of mind and balance. And it's obvious; b/c you have made this hammered and re-hammered point over and over again. You addressed it; why do feel the need to keep addressing it primarily from your perspective of tilted, negative bias? Can you try to see what I mean here w/o taking it the wrong way?

Besides any of that, you may not make through MS, etc, to be able to find an alternative path in medicine if you don't get some real clarity about the big picture with you. If a person has major depression, it COLORS EVERYTHING in their lives. So it behooves you to check this out as thoroughly as possible--and I mean beyond a good therapist--though I will not deny that that is a good thing to do, and I applaud you for doing that. But it may not be enough. . .depending. . .
So it can't hurt to check this out from all angles. Trust me, if you miss a step here, you could be setting yourself up for ruin you have not even anticipated yet. Again I say, DON'T BLOW THIS OFF.

Yes, of course there are aspects of MS and medicine that suck and suck big. Yes, life is filled with many sucky moments and periods and situations. And I have seen life be truly and outrageously unfair. I don't have time to share all these experiences. But here is what I've learned.

"A man used to vicissitudes is not easily dejected."—Samuel Johnson. I try to live by this quote. I learned from a young age that life is not merely a matter of rare troubles here and there throughout the decades. No way. That is NOT real life. Job 14 says:

"Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble."

Yep, this part of the whole of life for all of us.

In part it is my faith and with other parts it has to do with certain choices I've made within my own soul—namely that my thought-life is the line of scrimmage for my mind and life. Whatever I allow to control that line of scrimmage controls me.

So how can you know which way to turn or what approach to take when you well may have dynamics, that at least to some degree right now, you may have limited control over? I don't use brain chemistry as an excuse and justification for anything; but I have come to learn it is a powerful part of how we work. To deny it is folly.

I had to face that my POF was NOT a figment of my imagination and regardless of the cause or how it is unfair that I have a disease that caused it, it is still my problem. So, as long as I ignored getting appropriate tx, I did not have the quality of life I once had or was even intended to have. And the process of working through this, yet another of many vicissitudes, has helped me to grow and then help others in ways I could never have anticipated.

Fair or not, it was/is my problem, and I was/am the one that would have to do some work and reach out to the right people to get what I needed in order to get better and find wellness and clarity in my life.

NOW IF I had made serious decisions or had major projects or a major program that I had to work through and succeed in at that time, I would have been in trouble—until at least, treatment was initiated and it's benefits began to kick in. You've come to your own miserable conclusion/s b/c your are in the midst of this arduous MS process and you are not under treatment that you very well may need.

Dude you have things going on with you, and therapists, especially good ones that the individual connects w/ and truly trust are great—yes, they are worth their weight in gold really—BUT his/she/they may not be enough, at least initially.

For God's sake, get a very thorough physical w/ blood work-up from an excellent primary or IM physician, and then get the same kind of psychiatrist. Get started on effective treatment and then therapy will often flow and work better.

On top of that you can get involved in the right kind of support-group. People often fail in getting to wellness b/c they attempt to get to wellness in isolation. 9.9999- out of 10 in will never work in isolation. We were built for relationship and not to be endlessly in isolation.

Finally perhaps you can get to the place where you can incorporate some wellness principles, like daily exercise (30 minutes none stop--getting HR ^, etc) and nutritional changes and supplementation.

Dr. Amen, a neuropsychiatrist, has some interesting information on this, and on the fact that over time, daily, HR^ kicks the butt of many SSRIs—but it all depends on the particulars and the commitment to wellness of the individual. This fellow has some very insightful perspectives and data. I don't have to agree with everything Amen says, just like I don't agree with everything Freud said. But where there is merit and plausibility to what someone is stating, I stay open and try to benefit where and when I can. I'm not a "throw the baby out with the bathwater" kind of person or thinker.

Bottom line is that IMHO anyone with even a mcg of discernment and insight must limit how they take your perspective and advice and take a lot of what you are sharing w/ a grain of salt. Why? Well the why is b/c there is so much imbalance in what you share and how you share it. I am not sure you see this, but that is part of what I've been saying all along when I talk about you dealing with your first things first.



Shoot, there have been a good number of physicians that have indeed made it through MS and without killing themselves and have graduated to not like it anymore than they did in MS or at least much less than they did in med school. Shadowing often is not enough to give people a very real perspective of how hard this road is. That's why it is sort of good that MS are hard to get into, even though that is a function of practicality more than anything else.

I've watched and worked around it for a very long time. No, in totality it is not the same as actual, daily functioning as the physician. But in my area of nursing, it can make you a frontline spectator of sorts. I mean in critical care, we are often right up there in the mess of it all--not just physically speaking, but politically as well. I mean I know straight up that a surgical residency is NOT for me. I have seen what those poor residents and fellows go through. I mean it is beyond grueling and often demeaning at times. It's a very tough area—and frankly my talent and desire towards it is not enough to compensate for that kind of abuse and extreme rigor.

I've had good fortune in relating well with a number of surgeons, but honestly they can be VERY demanding and anal retentive—and when you consider their POV, you can understand it. They have to take a big bite of things when things go wrong with patients. And I think they should be perfectionists to a reasonable degree. If my child was having his or her heart operated on, you better believe I want the perfectionist, even if he is a major pain in the arse--just so long as his/her pride doesn't block sound judgment.

So I agree that it isn't a field for folks that don't have a heart and soul commitment to it. But back to my original perspective here, I really don't think you are being fair to yourself, or others for that matter, by NOT looking at all serious possibilities and how they may be tainting your perspective in an extreme manner. You can't sort things out until you deal with first things first.

So stop beating yourself up or saying how horrible this all is if 'it's not in your genes' practically. I am certain that plenty of folks that have considered medicine have had countless opportunities to question what they had gotten into after working in it. In fact, it really isn't an uncommon response.

But I wonder that there is more to what is going on with you. Figure it out, before it destroys you--whatever you end up doing.

 

[Naijaboiler]

wow... i dunno about you guys but i just started studying for MCAT. im superexcited. i love it. I love it that the materials covers so much. but then oops this is my first day of studying for MCAT. I don't know how long this enthusiasm. As for the OP, i would suppose that some inherent predilection for studying should be part of anybody wishing to engage in something as studying-intensive as a medical education.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I disagree. I can't speak for my classmates but I have many different interests as well. I simply decided to put them on the backburner after I struggled on my first set of exams and decided to go balls out the rest of the semester. The fear of not making it made me realize how much I wanted to be here, and the feeling of not being on par with my classmates made me want to study more. When that goes away then I am truly ****ed.

I'm sorry, but I've kept up with your posts for awhile and I'd take your outlook more seriously had you worked hard during school and still felt the same way. At this point it sounds like you're rationalizing for playing a lot of video games your first two years. For instance, my natural proclivities are sleeping, reading, writing, photography, watching movies and eating sweets. Had I did that this semester instead of studying, my initial thought would not be that medicine wasn't for me and that my true calling was the novelist/photographer career, but that I was lazy. Had I studied balls to the walls and was continuously underperforming in comparison to my classmates, and was unable to recall basic concepts related to my classes even after putting in many hours a day (or if I was the **** in preclinicals, which I'm not right now, and ran around with my thumb up my ass during two years of clincials), then I would start to question if I was in the right field.

Wow. You should have bolded these passages instead:

And one of the things that distinguishes an insider from an outsider is this sort of disdain that the insiders have for those who do not have the True Knowledge (TM), especially those who are supposed to have it but have failed to attain it, for they are the Incompetent. Although I have not directly humiliated myself in front of my classmates, just from knowing them I have an acute sense of how much they would look down on me if they knew how out-of-it I am.

Because you're proving my point perfectly.

So, according to you, if you get into medical school, you ipso facto want to be a doctor. If you don't study and don't do well, and then decide that you don't really want to be a doctor, well, you really DO still want to be a doctor. You're wrong about your own thoughts and feelings and just need to work harder.

I admit to being lazy. I've discussed it before. And people have told me that laziness vs. hard work is a choice, and I should simply make the decision to succeed. And they may be right, but I fail to see how that negates the possibility that it really wasn't the best idea for me to go to medical school in the first place, and that maybe people who are in the shoes I was in should think twice.

That being said, I would not have had the motivation to pull through had I not wanted to become a doctor in the first place.

So you are admitting that it's possible for someone to have second thoughts about becoming a doctor.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Well, I've already said that I'm open to non-clinical careers. What more can I do? If I quit now, in this economy with 10% unemployment, how would I make the payments on the $125,000 I've already borrowed that would come due?




My post was a bit hyperbolic. I assure you, my priority in posting here is the hope that people who are like me, who are where I was a few years ago, making the decision to pursue medicine, will consider some of the things I dismissed. My classmates aren't all truly jerks. What affects me is knowing how when we started first year, I was no different from them, we were all in the same place, equally knowing nothing about medicine, and how I kept up with them for a little while, but even during first year began to fall behind, as I simply had too many other interests outside of medicine, while they single-mindedly studied almost every hour of every day, totally focused on mastering medical knowledge. Now there is this huge gap between us. They have done well on Step I, are possessed of this enormous encyclopedia of biomedical trivia in their heads, take great pride in knowing it, are able to recite it in front of attendings so they can impress them and get honors--and I am not. A scant 2 years after we all started together, they are now a different kind of person than I. They are on the inside of medicine while I still feel on the outside. And one of the things that distinguishes an insider from an outsider is this sort of disdain that the insiders have for those who do not have the True Knowledge (TM), especially those who are supposed to have it but have failed to attain it, for they are the Incompetent. Although I have not directly humiliated myself in front of my classmates, just from knowing them I have an acute sense of how much they would look down on me if they knew how out-of-it I am.

I just want all those out there, the Trismegistus4's of 5 years ago, to know that if you go to medical school, your two options are 1) becoming that kind of person, or 2) failure.


I have thick skin by now. I'm merely bemused when pre-meds think they know better than I do.




What's so sad is that, as I said in the "is medical school worth it for nontrads" thread, if people have decided for whatever reason that they are going to do this, they can always find excuses as to why the above doesn't apply to them. It's certainly what I did.

I wish you well in whatever you end up doing.

 

[thepoopologist]

Wow. You should have bolded these passages instead:

Because you're proving my point perfectly.

Christ, you make it sound like a cult.

So, according to you, if you get into medical school, you ipso facto want to be a doctor. If you don't study and don't do well, and then decide that you don't really want to be a doctor, well, you really DO still want to be a doctor. You're wrong about your own thoughts and feelings and just need to work harder.

No, I'm not saying that.

My problem is that you are on these forums telling people that med school was the greatest mistake of your life, and I won't dispute that, but I want to point out that putting in the minimal amount of effort for the years you've been in school couldn't have helped much.

No one likes a field that they aren't capable at, but there is a difference between listening to someone who has put in the effort, and listening to someone who has not.

I admit to being lazy. I've discussed it before. And people have told me that laziness vs. hard work is a choice, and I should simply make the decision to succeed. And they may be right, but I fail to see how that negates the possibility that it really wasn't the best idea for me to go to medical school in the first place, and that maybe people who are in the shoes I was in should think twice.

It is not the best idea now, because you haven't gotten anything out of it. But you went in, decided to not make school a priority, and here you are two and a half years later. Who wouldn't be unhappy in that situation? If you'd like to relate your experiences as a lesson to those who are contemplating changing careers to go into medicine, then perhaps it is more accurate to tell them to go in and hit the ground running instead of settling back thinking they'd reached their pinnacle.

So you are admitting that it's possible for someone to have second thoughts about becoming a doctor.

Of course. But the second thoughts should stem from something other than dissatisfaction from a lack of effort.

 

[thepoopologist]

It's worse, because there's more material and the material is less interesting. At least physics and general chemistry are mainly problem-solving, and even in organic chemistry and biology there are concepts to understand and think through. Medical school is just 90% straight-up facts to memorize with no thinking whatsoever. Medical school is for type-A overachieving arrogant egocentric jerks who have no patience, no character, and no interest in anything but memorizing biological facts and then gunning for honors by spouting them off in front of attendings. If you like thinking or actually have a soul, you'll hate medical school.

I mean, wtf? How does this help anyone?

 

[20minutes]

I don't necessarily think it's people making excuses as to why "the above" doesn't apply to them. Everyone is different. Your experience is your experience.

+1

No one likes a field that they aren't capable at, but there is a difference between listening to someone who has put in the effort, and listening to someone who has not.

+1.

Woe is Tris the saviour. We get it, there are unhappy people in the world. That doesn't mean all the happy ones are "type-A overachieving arrogant egocentric jerks" or that all of them "would look down on [you] if they knew how out-of-it [you were]." Creating these false dichotomies is unproductive, at best. I'd venture to guess there are/were plenty of classmates who'd go out of their way to help, but you're so consumed in personal doom and gloom to notice.
Tris: best of luck to you.
All others: read Tris' story as an example of what not to do.
(ironic split, I know)

 

[jl lin]

+1



+1.

Woe is Tris the saviour. We get it, there are unhappy people in the world. That doesn't mean all the happy ones are "type-A overachieving arrogant egocentric jerks" or that all of them "would look down on [you] if they knew how out-of-it [you were]." Creating these false dichotomies is unproductive, at best. I'd venture to guess there are/were plenty of classmates who'd go out of their way to help, but you're so consumed in personal doom and gloom to notice.
Tris: best of luck to you.
All others: read Tris' story as an example of what not to do.
(ironic split, I know)

So see Tris, I use the above person's perspective to further illuminate my original points to you in this (I think) thread and the other thread. The severe dichotomies, etc, that is something seen w/ the kinds of disorders I've discussed with you. I guess short term, people do it as a temporary defense mechanism; but when they stay fixed in that kind of extreme thinking, something a bit more serious and deep is going on. I'm just trying to point out that the extremes in thinking are symptomatic in themselves.

Sorry I was so long in the other thread. I hope there is something helpful for you there.

I don't think joy and happiness is out of reach for you. I do think the other poster a couple of posts up has a point too. The kind of knucking down that is required in MS is something most people are not used to or ready for. I don't think it is uncommon at all. But if there are other underlying issues going on, some of which you may not be aware, etc, then it will be hard for you to see this in full perspective.

What will some sound treatment hurt? Tweaking neurotransmission might be helpful; that's certainly not for me to determine. A really good physical with bloodwok can't hurt. And a psychiatrist might be able to guide you to a therapist that can help you more than the person your are seeing on campus.

Bottom line is that you better get to this before it truly gets the better of you. The least that could happen is that you have to find ways to pay off the 2.5 years worth of loans--there's a lot worse than that--and going further in it out of fear of dealing with that will not only make the loan-debt greater--but then you have more than a couple of years before you can even fathom paying off the ole medical school mortgage--you'll be doing it and absolutely hating it for even longer.

Even most alternate career paths in medicine require clinical experience. And when you're done your residency, you are still considered a novice and not an expert practitioner. You can't stay in it just b/c of $80,000 to $100,000 debt, that, if you stay in it will become twice that amount. I mean if you truly loathe it that much, get out and cut your losses. You could see a lawyer/accountant/tax attorney and troubleshoot a solution--even if you claim bankruptcy, though I am reticent to advocate for such a thing--but it sure beats becoming suicidal or becoming another careless physician.

Now I'm NOT saying you do one thing or the other--EXCEPT see a reputable psychiatrist and get a thorough physical and maybe find a therapist that really connects with you.

Why? Well the worst thing that could happen to you is that you develop severe, unmoving major depression (perhaps w/ severe panic attacks--there's a fun time for you in the middle of your residency--non?), and/or an addiction problems--many physicians do develop such things--many end up depressed, addicted, divorced, and I've even known of some that have committed suicide--yep their education made them successsful first time out. One surgeon I know decided to mainline KCL. An anesth. OD in a remote room in the hospital, only to be found dead by other staff.

If you don't get more direct and specialized help for this now it will eat you alive.

 

[Trismegistus4]

It is not the best idea now, because you haven't gotten anything out of it. But you went in, decided to not make school a priority, and here you are two and a half years later. Who wouldn't be unhappy in that situation? If you'd like to relate your experiences as a lesson to those who are contemplating changing careers to go into medicine, then perhaps it is more accurate to tell them to go in and hit the ground running instead of settling back thinking they'd reached their pinnacle.

Look at it this way. If my fairy godmother appeared, and offered to transport me back in time to 3 years ago when I was in the middle of the interview cycle, knowing what I know now, I'd have two options: 1) do it over again, only really work hard this time, or 2) drop the med school thing and do something else entirely. Now I completely agree that #1 would be possible. But I would choose #2 all the same.

I had thought that medical school would force me to become a non-lazy person, and that it was the only way to attain some of the things I wanted in life. And as I've said before, the message I would want those contemplating career changes to get is that that's not true; med school won't automatically solve your problems for you, and you DO have other options (the old "if you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're smart enough to do other things" saw.)

If you don't get more direct and specialized help for this now it will eat you alive.

Whoa there, jl lin. I know you're trying to help, but you are not a psychiatrist nor any other type of physician, nor have you ever met me. As true as it is that one can't accurately self-diagnose, I know that others on this forum would back me up in saying that you can't remotely diagnose another. If I don't get psychiatric treatment now I'm going to kill myself? You really have no basis on which to make that statement.

I have talked with several people about this, both medical and non, and no one has said anything other than that the only thing that makes sense at this point is to at least finish the degree.

 

[Untraditional]

This thread is very interesting to me personally because I had a similar experience only I was in a PhD program. Finding a clinical position was the best thing I ever did. Like some of the posters here I reached a deeply depressed state where I was frustrated with my career path and advisor and recognized that after many years I was never going to reach the goals I had set for myself when I began my thesis research. I was at the point where I seriously considered other tragic options and they seemed like a welcome alternative to ever setting foot in my lab again. My clinical work set me on the path to becoming a physician, albeit an old one relative to some of you. Studying for the MCAT was a monotonous challenge that required discipline and stamina and I loved every single minute of it. Unlike my engineering work I found myself making progress toward a goal and getting stronger as I neared it. The biggest difference: studying for the MCAT there was a light t the end. I knew my goal and knew what I could earn and this made all the difference.

If I can help it I'll never set foot in a research lab again. There's simply too much bull****. I might PI a grant or advise students but the day-to-day of it? I'd rather study for the MCAT every day of my life than do that again. I'm finding that the discipline is secondary to the motivation. I want to do this. In a way I need to do this. The discipline comes from knowing what waits for me.

And for what its worth, I'm pushing 30 and about to get married. I couldn't be happier. That is, I can't be happier until I'm an MS1, then an MS4, then a resident, a fellow and then an attending. And for the guy who suggested 40K / year with no student loan debt? **** yes, and please, and when and where can I sign up?

 

[BennieBlanco]

Look at it this way. If my fairy godmother appeared, and offered to transport me back in time to 3 years ago when I was in the middle of the interview cycle, knowing what I know now, I'd have two options: 1) do it over again, only really work hard this time, or 2) drop the med school thing and do something else entirely. Now I completely agree that #1 would be possible. But I would choose #2 all the same.

I had thought that medical school would force me to become a non-lazy person, and that it was the only way to attain some of the things I wanted in life. And as I've said before, the message I would want those contemplating career changes to get is that that's not true; med school won't automatically solve your problems for you, and you DO have other options (the old "if you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're smart enough to do other things" saw.)



Whoa there, jl lin. I know you're trying to help, but you are not a psychiatrist nor any other type of physician, nor have you ever met me. As true as it is that one can't accurately self-diagnose, I know that others on this forum would back me up in saying that you can't remotely diagnose another. If I don't get psychiatric treatment now I'm going to kill myself? You really have no basis on which to make that statement.

I have talked with several people about this, both medical and non, and no one has said anything other than that the only thing that makes sense at this point is to at least finish the degree.

The problem is you live in the past. You constantly are talking about what went wrong and how things could have gone differently. Every post you write is complaining about something, you become what you think about.

Stop talking about how bad things are/were and go do something about it.

Man up and quit school. Med school isn't going to change anyone, you are the stimulus for change. Yeah you are 100k + down, then go make some money. Plenty of people earn over 100k, you can pay that off in under a decade easy. Yes you made a poor decision in hind sight BUT that is life, we all do it. The successful people decide what the solution is and start focusing on it. If I were to click on your previous post history and read 20 paragraphs, how many would be negative and talking about the hole your in and how much would be devoted to a solution? Probably 90% negative, hence you feel negative feelings, and you spout more negativity. Your thoughts are things and they are only manifesting themselves biologically and psychologically at this point.

Why would you finish a degree at something you don't want to do, you can never be great at something you hate.

This negativity campaign isn't helping anyone, it doesn't even help you. Because you constantly are thinking about how bad of a situation you are in. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

It is only fear holding you back at this point. You will never be good at medicine if you don't enjoy what you are doing.

So now you have a choice of making progress towards a better future or replaying the 201st time how bad it all is.

If you do decide to finish, stop talking about how TOUGH you have it. Because you don't. There are millions of kids dying from starvation this year that would happily trade places with you.

 

[jl lin]

Look at it this way. If my fairy godmother appeared, and offered to transport me back in time to 3 years ago when I was in the middle of the interview cycle, knowing what I know now, I'd have two options: 1) do it over again, only really work hard this time, or 2) drop the med school thing and do something else entirely. Now I completely agree that #1 would be possible. But I would choose #2 all the same.

I had thought that medical school would force me to become a non-lazy person, and that it was the only way to attain some of the things I wanted in life. And as I've said before, the message I would want those contemplating career changes to get is that that's not true; med school won't automatically solve your problems for you, and you DO have other options (the old "if you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're smart enough to do other things" saw.)



Whoa there, jl lin. I know you're trying to help, but you are not a psychiatrist nor any other type of physician, nor have you ever met me. As true as it is that one can't accurately self-diagnose, I know that others on this forum would back me up in saying that you can't remotely diagnose another. If I don't get psychiatric treatment now I'm going to kill myself? You really have no basis on which to make that statement.

I have talked with several people about this, both medical and non, and no one has said anything other than that the only thing that makes sense at this point is to at least finish the degree.

Tris,

Agreed. And I stated that it is not for me to determine. What I have stated several times is that it could only help to have certain folks that are qualified, do so.

See that response struck me as a bit defensive. But hey. You are in this tough place right now, and you've put it out there. I get that. So no hard feelings at all Tris.

PLENTY of folks though are seriously depressed and they can't or won't admit it, least not right away. And like a snowball, it just keeps getting bigger.

Farther out than space is it my place to tell you what to do one way or another, and please note that I now and previously have said as much. Re-read and you will see.

But I respectfully disagree with you if you think whatever this is is just going to go away. You know that on some level. You have to know it. So possibly playing this whole thing down like it's all about beating-the-hell-out-of-yourself time for making a bad career choice may very well be some serious avoidance on your part.
And should you desire to go with that, so be it. Avoid away. We all have our own serious issues to deal with. Trust me. You don't dominate the market on such things.

But you SAY that you basically hate all this med school business and seek to dissuade others about it--phrasing it ever so protectively around "If you think you are going to like med school--blah, blah, blah." Truth is, no one totally knows what anything is like before they are into it--and for most people it means well into it.

Also, FYI, I have worked in psych, though it is not my main area, and just in case you are wondering, nurses often are NOT idiots. We often learn a lot, see a lot, do a lot. What a lot means surely can vary. But even in critical care, you will find psych issues enter in more than you know. You think you will work primarily in one area and other stuff doesn't dovetial in--but that's not really how it works many times. And I've worked in a lot of university hospital settings. I've had good experience w/ major depression and certain other disorders. It's amazing how this crap can sneak up on people. I 'm speaking openly, but forgive me if my tone sounds a little stern here. I am just being forthright.

But here's what I note now. You say everyone is telling you to finish up now....blah.... First, they don't have to live out the next 4 to 5 years for you. And you have to work through your own residency program. They aren't going to work it for you.
So I say you owe it to yourself to get more insight into things going on with you before you decide anything.

What's more you seem to think I AM telling you as well. The only thing I ever said assertively is to speak to some reputable people beyond the person at your school. Perhaps it's about getting a well-rounded professional evaluation, perhaps getting some effective tx, and then you can, with greater balance and clarity think things through--think about what is truly best for you. I can't know that--and neither can these other folks to which you refer. You have to do it, and you can only do it when you can know you are in the best frame and balance of mind to do so.

I do take note of your reaction to the possible scenarios--least that could happen--worst that could happen. So, I'm thinking that indeed you really MAY want to stay in school afterall--just like you may well have wanted to go into for more than just women. And if that's the case, that's great! I say go for it. No matter what the case, however, seeking a qualified psychiatrist and getting a good physical and therapist can only help clarify things regardless of what YOU CHOOSE to do--that is, if the experts that you seek are good and you give them half a chance.


OTOH, from a practical standpoint, if you hate this whole MS thing so much, then how can getting another $100,000 or so in debt make the situation better (as well as continuing to spin your wheels in frustration) when you will have a while before you will see a return--and you may hate it like hell in the process?

Also, really, I don't know if you have ever had a true panic attack, but they can go along with depression and the development of anxiety, and it would be terrible to have to deal with them, especially during your residency. Once people have them they develop this huge fear of ever having them again. They are that terrible. I have no idea if you have the potential for such things or not--no one does. Even a BC psychiatrist will not be able to accurately predict this until it happens. But they happen enough when that snowball I was talking about gets big enough. That's the last thing anyone needs to have to deal with in their residency--especially when they also loathe what they are doing.

So, why did you get so defensive? Really I didn't tell you to stop school or not. I was running through scenarios. Only you can decide what to do.

When I shared with you that stuff about the physicians I knew/know, I shared the God's honest truth with you.

People often blow off or laugh at depression. Those people are being foolish. It can be just as deadly as cancer, and at the least, it can seriously destroy a person's quality of life and potential. Depression ruins lives--and for something that wants a relationship with a potential S.O, I will tell you that it can serious hurt a relationship. It's not something to play with.

No i don't know your whole deal, and I don't pretend to. What I do know is you sound like you are beyond where you only see the glass being half empty. Frankly, as I thought earlier, I don't know if you can be objective enough or if it is even fair to think that you could be at this point--and that's why the sincere suggestion about seeing the professionals in the first place.

I am certainly smart and experienced enough to know that people will do whatever they want, which is why I stated what I stated the way I stated it, if you read back through it.

Honestly, forgive me if I offended you in any way. I think and really hope you will figure this out, but I also believe it just MIGHT (see the word "might" there) require more than you and message-boarding about it. I think if the right professionals could help you hone in on what's going on with you, and you get effective tx, it will fall into place for you--though it won't at all be easy.

I'm hoping the best for you Tris.

Sincerely.


Also, I never said that if you don't get psychiatric tx you were going to kill yourself. Show me where I ever wrote that. Please re-read what I wrote. They were comparisons of scenarios--and they can happen to people in general--even people that may not think it so. I'm not saying you are one of those people. I do emphasize this however, and I don't care who you try to get to back you up on this board, if depression is a factor, it generally does snowball. And given your situation, why in the world would you not want to get a good check up, tune up, whatever it takes?

It's a wellness thing too though. I truly have come to learn that people have to really, seriously want to be well. I'm not saying that everyone that is not well is not well b/c they don't want it. DON'T misunderstand me. I'm saying I've seen many occasions where people truly don't want help. They may want some temporary relief, but a better, greater level of real wellness. . .no. Now I can get any number of healthcare professionals w/ serious experience to back that up.

 

[jl lin]

The problem is you live in the past. You constantly are talking about what went wrong and how things could have gone differently. Every post you write is complaining about something, you become what you think about.

Stop talking about how bad things are/were and go do something about it.

Man up and quit school. Med school isn't going to change anyone, you are the stimulus for change. Yeah you are 100k + down, then go make some money. Plenty of people earn over 100k, you can pay that off in under a decade easy. Yes you made a poor decision in hind sight BUT that is life, we all do it. The successful people decide what the solution is and start focusing on it. If I were to click on your previous post history and read 20 paragraphs, how many would be negative and talking about the hole your in and how much would be devoted to a solution? Probably 90% negative, hence you feel negative feelings, and you spout more negativity. Your thoughts are things and they are only manifesting themselves biologically and psychologically at this point.

Why would you finish a degree at something you don't want to do, you can never be great at something you hate.

This negativity campaign isn't helping anyone, it doesn't even help you. Because you constantly are thinking about how bad of a situation you are in. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

It is only fear holding you back at this point. You will never be good at medicine if you don't enjoy what you are doing.

So now you have a choice of making progress towards a better future or replaying the 201st time how bad it all is.

If you do decide to finish, stop talking about how TOUGH you have it. Because you don't. There are millions of kids dying from starvation this year that would happily trade places with you.

Yep. Do one thing or the other; but make it proactive.

 

[20minutes]

It seems like we have 2 threads about Tris' angst (which may be two too many, but that's just me). Can we keep this one about the differences in MCAT vs Med school, while posting on Tris' experiences in http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=622597 ?

Studying for the MCAT was a monotonous challenge that required discipline and stamina and I loved every single minute of it. Unlike my engineering work I found myself making progress toward a goal and getting stronger as I neared it. The biggest difference: studying for the MCAT there was a light t the end. I knew my goal and knew what I could earn and this made all the difference.

Good perspective.

 

[BennieBlanco]

It seems like we have 2 threads about Tris' angst (which may be two too many, but that's just me). Can we keep this one about the differences in MCAT vs Med school, while posting on Tris' experiences in http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=622597 ?



Good perspective.

The threads become about Tris because of Tris.

You could be asking about why Rainbows have the colors they do, and Tris would come and tell us how it is in someway connected to him going to medical school and hating it.

Negativity must be fought like a roach infestation, you can't just let it run around spreading exponentially. You see it, you squash it.

 

[QofQuimica]

It seems like we have 2 threads about Tris' angst (which may be two too many, but that's just me). Can we keep this one about the differences in MCAT vs Med school, while posting on Tris' experiences in http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=622597 ?

I can try to separate out some of the posts that are off-topic if the OP wants.

 

[EdLongshanks]

The threads become about Tris because of Tris.

Someone used the word "Angst". It's a good term. It's a term for artists about artists and describes artists well. CS Lewis said that what artists needed when they were stuck in their lofts, pining away for the lost pleasures of yester year, was a good five minutes of toothache. It would show up the imaginary, emotional sorrows for the frippery that they are.

Almost everybody who posts on these boards is one of life's lottery winners. First of all, we are Americans, which means we live a life unimaginably soft in historical, or even present-day global terms. Second of all, we've been allowed to attend college and outperform our fellow students. That puts us in the top 10% of even American comfort. Thirdly, we are aspiring to be medical Doctors. This is the highest honorable position that our culture bestows.

If the road to that honor is hard and bumpy -- duh. What else would we expect? What else would we want it to be?

 

[Trismegistus4]

The threads become about Tris because of Tris.

You could be asking about why Rainbows have the colors they do, and Tris would come and tell us how it is in someway connected to him going to medical school and hating it.

Negativity must be fought like a roach infestation, you can't just let it run around spreading exponentially. You see it, you squash it.

You could just ignore me.

To be fair, my posts were somewhat on-topic until jl lin posted one of her book-length missives.

 

[20minutes]

Negativity must be fought like a roach infestation, you can't just let it run around spreading exponentially. You see it, you squash it.

Last off-topic post from me (probably): I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. In fact, I'd love to see a pre-med Q and A panel with Tris, MedicineSux, and Panda. I almost admire their unwavering negativity.

I can try to separate out some of the posts that are off-topic if the OP wants.

That seems like an excessive waste of your time.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Last off-topic post from me (probably): I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. In fact, I'd love to see a pre-med Q and A panel with Tris, MedicineSux, and Panda. I almost admire their unwavering negativity.



That seems like an excessive waste of your time.

It is one thing to voice an opinion and another thing entirely to beat a drum constantly pushing an opinion.

I would love to see a thread by them also... but I don't know if I would love to see a campaign pushing these ideas in multiple threads.

Lots of opinions = great for decision making

Focusing on the negative elements of life constantly = not good for life.

There is always bad stuff and good stuff, if they chose to think of the ugly then fine, but if I'm posting in a thread and I see BS, I'm gonna call the BS out sometimes. This was one of those times.

 

[jl lin]

You could just ignore me.

To be fair, my posts were somewhat on-topic until jl lin posted one of her book-length missives.

So sorry Tris. I think prior to that, or at least in other threads, I've read through some of your own lengthy missives of woe.
Speeding through some of my replies may be why you misstated what I said. It would have been fairer, however, to just ignore my responses entirely rather than misstate and misrepresent them.


But no worries. I was genuine and made some points worthy of consideration, and I do believe you know why. More than a couple of people here have made great points that were in the same direction as well regarding your situation. The reception is down it seems.
So, if your best approach is to bask in all the personal disquietude of which you routinely speak, than please continue to do so.

It seems you have chosen to not consider anything in the honest spirit it which it was meant. I am in no way worse for wear from it.


Won't be a problem Tris. I wish you well; but honestly I'm done here.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Maybe Tris can take a new avatar.... The Balrog... "Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom"

 

[BennieBlanco]

So sorry Tris. I think prior to that, or at least in other threads, I've read through some of your own lengthy missives of woe.
Speeding through some of my replies may be why you misstated what I said. It would have been fairer, however, to just ignore my responses entirely rather than misstate and misrepresent them.


But no worries. I was genuine and made some points worthy of consideration, and I do believe you know why. More than a couple of people here have made great points that were in the same direction as well regarding your situation. The reception is down it seems.
So, if your best approach is to bask in all the personal disquietude of which you routinely speak, than please continue to do so.

It seems you have chosen to not consider anything in the honest spirit it which it was meant. I am in no way worse for wear from it.


Won't be a problem Tris. I wish you well; but honestly I'm done here.

I thought you did a good job!

One of my favorite quotes from a guy I listen to is this:

"A man made a pretty sincere heart felt speech, and there were a variety of responses. Some people mocked, some laughed, and then others believed. Why would people mock such a sincere effort? They are the mockers. They mock. He didn't stop what he was doing and try to convince the mockers, instead he continued on and did another speech to a new group."

The point here is that the mockers do what they do because that is who they are.

You can offer all the help you want to these people BUT they are who they are, a post (no matter how perfect and true) isn't going to get through to them. They have to change, and it can only begin with DESIRE. Your advice while perfect and appropriate just goes in one ear and out the other.

 

[jl lin]

I thought you did a good job!

One of my favorite quotes from a guy I listen to is this:

"A man made a pretty sincere heart felt speech, and there were a variety of responses. Some people mocked, some laughed, and then others believed. Why would people mock such a sincere effort? They are the mockers. They mock. He didn't stop what he was doing and try to convince the mockers, instead he continued on and did another speech to a new group."

The point here is that the mockers do what they do because that is who they are.

You can offer all the help you want to these people BUT they are who they are, a post (no matter how perfect and true) isn't going to get through to them. They have to change, and it can only begin with DESIRE. Your advice while perfect and appropriate just goes in one ear and out the other.

Thanks for that.

So very true Bennie.

I've learned much of life involves the understanding and regular application of The Serenity Prayer. It's seems easy upon reading it; but really getting it and applying it consistently is a life's worth of journeys, and these journeys are often far from easy. I don't think they were all (or even mostly) meant to be. Acceptance of that reality is the beginning of getting it.

So I accept what I am powerless to change--especially when another abdicates his/her own power of choice to get to productive change. I've heard Dr Oz and Dr. Roizen say to various patients at times, "We're just asking you to care about yourself as we do."

Another perspective is that online people are not necessarily what they seem. I've seen a lot of trolling techniques and approaches in the past. I start by giving pretty much everyone the benefit of the doubt. But "Once somebody shows you what they are (so to speak), it's important to BELIEVE them."

I'm compassionate, but I'm also on the cagey side somewhat. I've interacted w/ a number of BPDs and individuals w/ similar disorders or folks w/ just various unremitting emotional issues. It becomes predominately about them and no possible solution is really embraced or embarked upon; b/c it really isn't wanted.

And when there are those that respond w/ care and some perspective and, God forbid that they relate some exposing insight or possible truth about them, the BPD-type (or something) mark the ones carrying some light as the enemy. Light and the messenger become like threats to them.

Sadly I think this individual's repeated theme will recur yet again in other threads.

I'm closing the page on this thread though w/ regard to this particular issue. I really do hope the best and that somehow things work out.



Thanks again.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

Studying for the MCAT is one of the most painful endeavors ever. It cannot be compared to medical school. My feeling is that the MCAT is a test you are either able to perform well on or not. Prep courses and brute force can make you presentable, but many people just never get the score they want. Any old fool can get through medical school if they work hard enough.

I partially agree. However med school is way harder than anything you will study for the MCAT. A lot more memorizing especially. But you are right. I couldn't get higher than a 10 on the VR, but then again, I could have put in a bit more effort too... However, i believe almost anyone can get 12+ on science sections if they study hard enough. So 34/35 is not out of reach for most people , even if they get VR scores 9 or 10.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I partially agree. However med school is way harder than anything you will study for the MCAT. A lot more memorizing especially. But you are right. I couldn't get higher than a 10 on the VR, but then again, I could have put in a bit more effort too... However, i believe almost anyone can get 12+ on science sections if they study hard enough. So 34/35 is not out of reach for most people , even if they get VR scores 9 or 10.

The weird thing about the medical school process is that the MCAT is a heavily g-loaded test; that is, to do well, you have to have good reasoning and critical thinking skills. Yet the first two years of medical school require very little reasoning and a lot of straight-up memorization, and your success is mostly a function of how hard and single-mindedly you're willing to work. So the test to get into medical school doesn't test the skills you really need to succeed in medical school.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

Well, at my school, some classes were straight-up memorization, but some classes actually did require some critical thinking and application. I don't know if it is coincidence or not, but I usually do a bit above average on things that require memorization and less application but significantly better on things that require a lot of critical thinking...

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

The weird thing about the medical school process is that the MCAT is a heavily g-loaded test; that is, to do well, you have to have good reasoning and critical thinking skills. Yet the first two years of medical school require very little reasoning and a lot of straight-up memorization, and your success is mostly a function of how hard and single-mindedly you're willing to work. So the test to get into medical school doesn't test the skills you really need to succeed in medical school.

Agree. I am not doing as well in med school as my MCAT would suggest. But I am also not stressing about Honors (yet). I'm not a good memorizing machine (yet) and tend to do better where creative intellect can help. Not as helpful during the first two years. I hope it comes more into play 3rd year.

I just look at it as a new skill to develop!

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

My .02$ (and let it be known I skipped 90% of this thread):

The rigor is much stricter in Med School FOR ME. I didn't study very hard for the MCAT and got my can kicked in Anatomy. Still figuring things out.

However, (and it is a big however) I am pretty damn happy. I might have perspective shift as a 3x reapplicant and non-trad. I feel lucky to be here and find the material very interesting. I have heard complaints from many of my classmates who went straight through school, but the issues that irk them I tend to ignore because I got into a great med school and am...well just thankful! However this is the same reason hazing breeds loyalty...

It'll be different for everyone, it is up to you get the most out of it. Or get what you want out of it and balance a full life...

 

[kia ora]

My .02$ (and let it be known I skipped 90% of this thread):

The rigor is much stricter in Med School FOR ME. I didn't study very hard for the MCAT and got my can kicked in Anatomy. Still figuring things out.

However, (and it is a big however) I am pretty damn happy. I might have perspective shift as a 3x reapplicant and non-trad. I feel lucky to be here and find the material very interesting. I have heard complaints from many of my classmates who went straight through school, but the issues that irk them I tend to ignore because I got into a great med school and am...well just thankful! However this is the same reason hazing breeds loyalty...

It'll be different for everyone, it is up to you get the most out of it. Or get what you want out of it and balance a full life...

I like this post. well, not the part where you get kicked by anatomy, but the part where you feel lucky to be where you are

 

[Nasrudin]

I like this post. well, not the part where you get kicked by anatomy, but the part where you feel lucky to be where you are

me too. that one stuck a resonant chord. a suspended 4th amidst a melancholic blue.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

Well, I did Pass Anatomy, (yay for no grades) it was just HARD

Glad I gave you guys some perspective.

 

[NTF]

3x reapplicant and non-trad.

I still find your accomplishments such an inspiration.

 

[scurred09]

You are an idiot! Plenty of people earn over 100k? You must be young and stupid.

The problem is you live in the past. You constantly are talking about what went wrong and how things could have gone differently. Every post you write is complaining about something, you become what you think about.

Stop talking about how bad things are/were and go do something about it.

Man up and quit school. Med school isn't going to change anyone, you are the stimulus for change. Yeah you are 100k + down, then go make some money. Plenty of people earn over 100k, you can pay that off in under a decade easy. Yes you made a poor decision in hind sight BUT that is life, we all do it. The successful people decide what the solution is and start focusing on it. If I were to click on your previous post history and read 20 paragraphs, how many would be negative and talking about the hole your in and how much would be devoted to a solution? Probably 90% negative, hence you feel negative feelings, and you spout more negativity. Your thoughts are things and they are only manifesting themselves biologically and psychologically at this point.

Why would you finish a degree at something you don't want to do, you can never be great at something you hate.

This negativity campaign isn't helping anyone, it doesn't even help you. Because you constantly are thinking about how bad of a situation you are in. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

It is only fear holding you back at this point. You will never be good at medicine if you don't enjoy what you are doing.

So now you have a choice of making progress towards a better future or replaying the 201st time how bad it all is.

If you do decide to finish, stop talking about how TOUGH you have it. Because you don't. There are millions of kids dying from starvation this year that would happily trade places with you.

 

[scurred09]

Yes please. however keep all of tri's post as it is real life experience.

I can try to separate out some of the posts that are off-topic if the OP wants.

 

[Mister T]

honestly, I don't see why everyone is demonizing Tris. None of you know him completely and I would rather say that he knows the culture of medical school better than any of you do (he's in it).

We also don't know what type of person he is in real life. Is he fat, ugly, socially awkward, arrogant, or even poor, or even a minority?

There tends to be a certain group of students who commonly get into medical school who are of shall we say a certain socioeconomic class and above. It may not be so much about the money, but money does make things a lot more comfortable to say the least.

Anyways, I don't want to make this a thread about money, btu I wanted to say that Tris's experiences word for word are VERY common, and rather than DEMONIZING and ignoring what he's saying, a lot of naive idiots tend to say oh shucks you're depressed or you're not tough enough.

The hell?

First go through it and then get back to us.

And just because you're a gunner does not translate into being a better doctor as the correlation is not 1:1.

If anyone wants to read the black and white of medicine, check out

www.medschoolhell.com

and panda bear md's blog (now on the SDN website).

I would say, btw, that I respect the "black and white" thinking that Tris has --- he keeps it real, doesn't embellish and tells it like it is.

I would also say that Tris should take a year possibly even two after medical school (he is right in wanting to complete medical school, I don't know why somebody insisted that he drop out after plunking over 100K, which is just ******ed.

He can go into business, go into the military, go into pathology (after taking a year or two off of recovering his motivation and energy), and be done with it all.

TIME OFF IS A GOOD THING.

The end.

 

[jl lin]

honestly, I don't see why everyone is demonizing Tris. None of you know him completely and I would rather say that he knows the culture of medical school better than any of you do (he's in it).

We also don't know what type of person he is in real life. Is he fat, ugly, socially awkward, arrogant, or even poor, or even a minority?

There tends to be a certain group of students who commonly get into medical school who are of shall we say a certain socioeconomic class and above. It may not be so much about the money, but money does make things a lot more comfortable to say the least.

Anyways, I don't want to make this a thread about money, btu I wanted to say that Tris's experiences word for word are VERY common, and rather than DEMONIZING and ignoring what he's saying, a lot of naive idiots tend to say oh shucks you're depressed or you're not tough enough.

The hell?

First go through it and then get back to us.

And just because you're a gunner does not translate into being a better doctor as the correlation is not 1:1.

If anyone wants to read the black and white of medicine, check out

www.medschoolhell.com

and panda bear md's blog (now on the SDN website).

I would say, btw, that I respect the "black and white" thinking that Tris has --- he keeps it real, doesn't embellish and tells it like it is.

I would also say that Tris should take a year possibly even two after medical school (he is right in wanting to complete medical school, I don't know why somebody insisted that he drop out after plunking over 100K, which is just ******ed.

He can go into business, go into the military, go into pathology (after taking a year or two off of recovering his motivation and energy), and be done with it all.

TIME OFF IS A GOOD THING.

The end.

What's with the repeat post? You already posted this in the other Tris-dominated thread.

 

[20minutes]

You are an idiot! Plenty of people earn over 100k? You must be young and stupid.

Excellent contribution to the conversation.