Is there anyway to slow the opening of new dental schools

[wired202808]

You don't give up with this numbers thing now do you, I could give countless examples of where numbers failed in practice, ie. numbers didnt predict the 08 recession, if it did we wouldnt be in this slump. I am just going to end it here, we are both persistent with our views, I dont think you will be able to change my mind, and I dont think I will be able to change yours. If it does ever come time to defend our profession, we will be on the same team either way. Agree to disagree, goodbye, and good luck.

at least we agree on something lol

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[bigbadaboom]

How does a mandatory gpr bottleneck anything?

address access to care - mandatory GPR/AEGD or specialty residency in order to acquire a license to practice. OR work in a rural, middle of nowhere community clinic for 2 years with some low government funded salary.

 

[bigbadaboom]

not likely it's going to matter anyway. In saturated market like LA, or Bay Area of California, the new grads have very little chance of finding work right out of school, unless they're well connected or have some families in the dentistry business.

So these new grads either have to move out of state or find work in the middle of nowhere already.

Oh wait, the mid-level provider bill just got passed. So in the near future in California all these mid-level providers will do all that a new grads can do too.

Really, some of these new schools just open to rake in the high tuitions from students, they really don't care if the graduates will find work after graduation.

 

[yappy]

CA sucks. So does NY. Does anyone have any idea what the state of employment is for new grads in other areas of the country?

 

[mike3kgt]

...ECU, LECOM, Roseman are all located in a small state, but students from those state are free to move when they are graduate. I won't talk about regional board exams/licenses assuming you know about it. As long as their license allow them, they can move to right next to you. especially they think that your location is golden.

Since when is Florida & North Carolina a "small state"?

Florida is the #4 populous state in the country, North Carolina is #10. Utah/Nevada is small at least for now... and I know most of the people from those two states love having 4+ kids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

And both states still have fairly restrictive state boards, albeit administered by regional examiners. I.e. to get licensure in NC you need to give up your licenses from other states!

 

[TheClutch]

you're right. my error up there

 

[wired202808]

CA sucks. So does NY. Does anyone have any idea what the state of employment is for new grads in other areas of the country?

go to Alabama and stop talking smack about NY.

 

[Firm]

There is no way to slow the opening of dental schools. The lack of support from former students and state governments have caused the need for these schools to find money elsewhere.
The silver lining in this is that more woman graduating. I read somewhere that this years class 2011 entering is 56% female. Since women often want careers and family, they may choose not to work as many days.

 

[yappy]

I meant in terms of practicing dentistry.

go to Alabama and stop talking smack about NY.

 

[tingting]

The best way to slow the opening of new schools is for the bubble to burst on higher education loans. As it stands institutions can charge whatever they want knowing that the feds will cover most of it and private banks will cover the remaining. If students didn't have this empty check, these schools would not exist. The same goes for all the University of Phoenix type undergrads that are in the business of robbing students via this easily obtained credit. Student debt burden is on an unsustainable course and at some point it is going to boil over.

There are a lot of parallels with the housing loans bubble that has played out over the last decade. Now that it's harder to get the mortgages, the developers are not building.

If the Feds place some restrictions on lending and interest rates, the business model of dental school could flip very quickly and the problem will correct itself. I think this is the best hope.

 

[wired202808]

I meant in terms of practicing dentistry.

NY is still good you have to know how to work and who to work with

 

[DavesNotHere]

There is no way to slow the opening of dental schools. The lack of support from former students and state governments have caused the need for these schools to find money elsewhere.
The silver lining in this is that more woman graduating. I read somewhere that this years class 2011 entering is 56% female. Since women often want careers and family, they may choose not to work as many days.

Yes, what a great silver lining

 

[nampa1]

As a pharmacy student that saw the job market precipitously deteriorate from the first month of matriculation, I TOTALLY CONCUR WITH THIS ASSESMENT. There is so much naivete and phoniness in our society, kids aren't getting proper information. They also are scared of the future and are very loathe to let go of their education-is-the-ticket pathos. Pharmacy still has loads of applicants. Law has been crap for years (some schools aren't even bothering with accrediation). In addition to this, there isn't much opportunity in the U.S. anymore. It's desperation and dog-eat-dog for most. Dentistry is no where near the problems of pharmacy, OD, etc. I always assumed that they knew what was up.. Medicine, because of it's residency control, still marches on.

 

[Wakaaa]

I don't think most of the companies and organizations out there really care for anyone, but themselves. Do tobacco providers care that so many people are dying from smoking? Does the government even care? Nope. They get their money and that's all that matters. If the ADA or whatever it's called is money driven, then I'm really not surprised. Just another corrupt group.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

[mike3kgt]

I don't think most of the companies and organizations out there really care for anyone, but themselves. Do tobacco providers care that so many people are dying from smoking? Does the government even care? Nope. They get their money and that's all that matters. If the ADA or whatever it's called is money driven, then I'm really not surprised. Just another corrupt group.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

No correction needed there. While they have one hand in the pocket of corporate dentistry / Delta Dental and the other helping the membership... the ADA is still the best we've got to at least fight for the collective goals.

Take a look at the AGD for some leadership too, they do a pretty good job.

 

[bigbadaboom]

No correction needed there. While they have one hand in the pocket of corporate dentistry / Delta Dental and the other helping the membership... the ADA is still the best we've got to at least fight for the collective goals.

Take a look at the AGD for some leadership too, they do a pretty good job.

for AGD. Their annual membership due is less than $500

vs. $1800 and up for ADA.

Frankly AGD does a better job representing dentists, and specifically advocating for general dentists.

 

[DPad]

This is what particularly infuriates me. I don't mind the fact that we are educating our own citizens but why do we have to take in foreigners to educate them in our dental schools when there is no need? Although they might deny it, the only reason they come here is to get a job in the US where they can make more money and live the good life.

You're totally right. I met a doctor in residency who came from India. Went to high school and then straight to med-school for 5 1/2 years and then came here to do residency. How is it soo difficult for our own students to gain access to a health career job but foreigners get it easy?

 

[Shnurek]

You're totally right. I met a doctor in residency who came from India. Went to high school and then straight to med-school for 5 1/2 years and then came here to do residency. How is it soo difficult for our own students to gain access to a health career job but foreigners get it easy?

Their high school is usually later than ours and medical school in foreign countries is just about as competitive to get into or way more than here. Plus, when they come here they almost always get the crap residencies such as Family Medicine, peds, internal medicine or whatever.

Dentists make more than family medicine docs per hour and ODs make about the same. So, that's why I didn't go to a Carribean Medical school. Waste of money. Sure you get the ego boost MD behind your name but you work your ass off 80 hours a week in a residency making a little over minimum wage before you graduate and still make about what an optometrist makes an hour. Not only that but many Family Med docs are closing shop and cannot afford their own practices. Specialization is the future. That is why Dentists, Optometrists and Podiatrists will flourish. Don't believe me? http://www.aoa.org/x20898.xml

"With immediate cuts averted, optometrists are now on track to see even higher Medicare payments in 2012. While most physicians will continue to receive 2011 rates through 2012, many ODs will see a roughly two percent increase in reimbursements in 2012, worth $20 million this year alone."

"Of note, no MD specialty will see as much as a two percent increase in 2012."

 

[wired202808]

Their high school is usually later than ours and medical school in foreign countries is just about as competitive to get into or way more than here. Plus, when they come here they almost always get the crap residencies such as Family Medicine, peds, internal medicine or whatever.

Dentists make more than family medicine docs per hour and ODs make about the same. So, that's why I didn't go to a Carribean Medical school. Waste of money. Sure you get the ego boost MD behind your name but you work your ass off 80 hours a week in a residency making a little over minimum wage before you graduate and still make about what an optometrist makes an hour. Not only that but many Family Med docs are closing shop and cannot afford their own practices. Specialization is the future. That is why Dentists, Optometrists and Podiatrists will flourish. Don't believe me? http://www.aoa.org/x20898.xml

"With immediate cuts averted, optometrists are now on track to see even higher Medicare payments in 2012. While most physicians will continue to receive 2011 rates through 2012, many ODs will see a roughly two percent increase in reimbursements in 2012, worth $20 million this year alone."

"Of note, no MD specialty will see as much as a two percent increase in 2012."

Dentists make more than OD's so please stop spreading that false rumor around. You're also making a HUGE assumption that Carib school = family medicine. That might be true in some cases, but not all. Plenty of my friends went to carib schools got residencies in neurology, etc. They will out earn ODs any day of the week and twice on Sunday. MD specialties that pay out 300K a year will out earn ODs by nearly 70%, that's using a rate per hour analysis of MDs working 70 hours a week vs. an ODs 40 hour work week and 100K salary. While we all know how you love OD since you troll all the other boards, it would be foolish to assume that OD's out earn dentists or most MD specialties.

 

[Shnurek]

Dentists make more than family medicine docs per hour and ODs make about the same.

With this statement I meant that ODs make about the same as family medicine and that dentists make more than family medicine. Therefore, you misunderstood me.

And if you look at FMG and IMG matching statistics you will see that 85% or so match into low paying specialties like Family Medicine. I am talking about general trends here, not your anecdotal tale of a friend that matched into neurology. I can tell you anecdotal tales of ODs that net $500,000 but anecdotes don't really matter. I am speaking in facts unlike you.

 

[wired202808]

With this statement I meant that ODs make about the same as family medicine and that dentists make more than family medicine. Therefore, you misunderstood me.

And if you look at FMG and IMG matching statistics you will see that 85% or so match into low paying specialties like Family Medicine. I am talking about general trends here, not your anecdotal tale of a friend that matched into neurology. I can tell you anecdotal tales of ODs that net $500,000 but anecdotes don't really matter. I am speaking in facts unlike you.

You're right but you're also spreading the illusion that OD is better than going to Carib Med school which in reality is its NOT. Even as a family medicine or IM they can still out earn you in the long run. Esp after they set up 1 or 2 of their own offices. I know you're an OD and you have a raging case to ALWAYS let EVERYONE know that OD is the best earning profession, but in reality its not.

Now of course there are exceptions to everything and yes you might out earn some of the lowest of the low level IE or Fam Med doctors who work in hospitals but once they set up their own private practice they'll blow you out of the water by at least 20 to 30K, that's also assuming you'll make 120K which you might or might not. While OD school is cheaper I dont think its the best use of 4 years vs. Carib med school.

We can go back to a simple website that posts jobs and offers salaries. Like Indeed.com

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Internal+Medicine&l1=nyc
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=optometrist&l1=nyc

Obv these numbers are from hospitals or public clinics.

 

[Shnurek]

you have a raging case to ALWAYS let EVERYONE know that OD is the best earning profession, but in reality its not.

Dude I've never stated that. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Are you a bit thick no?

 

[wired202808]

So then why would you offer advice that says otherwise? You should probably revise your comments up above to accurately reflect your viewpoint. Because that's all that you seem to imply.

Call me thick or wreck or whatever. I'm offering facts, I'm sorry if you dont like them. FACT: ODs are not on the same financial level as MDs and DDS'. The end

 

[SoulPower]

Holy s**t, can you guys stop trolling. You two destroy threads in your wake with your stupid bickering. PM or something.

 

[DJPaulyDDS]

So then why would you offer advice that says otherwise? You should probably revise your comments up above to accurately reflect your viewpoint. Because that's all that you seem to imply.

Call me thick or wreck or whatever. I'm offering facts, I'm sorry if you dont like them. FACT: ODs are not on the same financial level as MDs and DDS'. The end

Avicii ugh i mean wired, i think its time for you to make a new name...
just like the majority of dentists end up practicing general denstistry, most FMG's go into family medicine.
I do agree however that OD's do make far less than dentists and MD's.

 

[Shnurek]

Call me thick or wreck or whatever. I'm offering facts, I'm sorry if you dont like them. FACT: ODs are not on the same financial level as MDs and DDS'. The end

Not for me. I'm paying $18,000 tuition a year while living at home while my Carribean MD friends are having a fun time paying $32,000 a year tuition plus living expenses at around $20,000 a year and that includes flights plus everything is more expensive in the MD world. Malpractice insurance, application fees, everything. So not only do they stack up around $50k a year on loans but the interest keeps accruing for the next 7 years before they can even begin to pay it off. By that time I will have paid off all my loans and I'll be saving money to partner into an ophthalmology/optometry office or an optometry office or set my own office up.

Sure DDS/MDs earn more and those are facts. But MD/DDS training costs 2x-3x more than OD training on average. Also are MD/DDS gaining scope of practice ground every year in many states? Nope. MDs are losing and DDS may have some minor victories in oral surgery. I could go to Oklahoma or Kentucky and start doing cosmetic laser eye surgery at around $1000 a pop if I was really money hungry but I'm not.

The point is there are trends that are bigger than your bootleg indeed.com salary site and your myopic viewpoints.

 

[Shnurek]

Holy s**t, can you guys stop trolling. You two destroy threads in your wake with your stupid bickering. PM or something.

 

[wired202808]

Not for me. I'm paying $18,000 tuition a year while living at home while my Carribean MD friends are having a fun time paying $32,000 a year tuition plus living expenses at around $20,000 a year and that includes flights plus everything is more expensive in the MD world. Malpractice insurance, application fees, everything. So not only do they stack up around $50k a year on loans but the interest keeps accruing for the next 7 years before they can even begin to pay it off. By that time I will have paid off all my loans and I'll be saving money to partner into an ophthalmology/optometry office or an optometry office or set my own office up.

Sure DDS/MDs earn more and those are facts. But MD/DDS training costs 2x-3x more than OD training on average. Also are MD/DDS gaining scope of practice ground every year in many states? Nope. MDs are losing and DDS may have some minor victories in oral surgery. I could go to Oklahoma or Kentucky and start doing cosmetic laser eye surgery at around $1000 a pop if I was really money hungry but I'm not.

The point is there are trends that are bigger than your bootleg indeed.com salary site and your myopic viewpoints.

Point of the day: After 20 years of practice, most MDs and DDS will outearn you 2x to 3x over. So stop making it seems like its OD or bust.

 

[theleatherwalle]

Wired you have quite the rep, but I agree with you here. Tingting support ron paul much

D.O. and Pharm both seem to be doing fine. I have seen no issues with them finding jobs. I think having more dental schools is fine. We have had a huge influx of qualified candidates. I think its hilarious now that we are in school we want to close it off for others. The midwest and south are not saturated markets by any means. If you are worried about a dentist coming and taking your spot then you better welcome to the harsh realities private practice. Yes of course some markets are saturated, but if you plan to work there then you better be willing to compete! I doubt dentistry will ever go down the path of law because I think dental schools have to be accredited to make it onto adea aadsas, but law schools do not have to be accredited to make it into LSAC.

 

[eliwoohoo]

Dentistry is changing, no doubt. Higher tuition, mid level providers, decreased reimbursement, higher competition, etc are all going to take a toll on new dentists. However, it is still a great career that can provide for a good standard of living.

Key point is to be prepared. Be educated on the trends that our profession has, and understand what implications it will have on your future. Instead of dismissing visible trends as "paranoia," or just whine about the potential crash and burn, it would be much more prudent to prepare yourself for what could be tough times ahead. Save money, work on speeding yourself up in clinic, find out what locations are conducive to new practices, etc. There is always a way to succeed, especially when you are in an elite group of educated professions like dentists.

I've said it many times before, most people won't get rich practicing dentistry. As a sole method of income, you must either be a very skilled businessman or a very skilled practitioner (or preferable both) to make a high income (>500K) as a dentist. As much as all of us think we are going to be the top 5% earners, most of us are actually going to be in the 95% average.

Point of the day: After 20 years of practice, most MDs and DDS will outearn you 2x to 3x over. So stop making it seems like its OD or bust.

How is that true at all? If you have been following this thread, you would realize that all our professions are changing rapidly. No one can say for certain what our incomes will look like after 20 years of practice...

DDS, DO, OD, MD, there are such huge ranges in salaries that there is no, "I make more than you, ha!" There are advantages and disadvantages to all these professions, and we all had our personal reasons for choosing to pursue our goals... it sounds ridiculously contrite to argue which profession's average salary is higher.

Shnurek, I'm sorry but I don't think anyone on this dental thread really care how much OD's make. The entire discussion is really irrelevant to this thread, and in fact to this forum...

 

[theleatherwalle]

Thanks for the logical reply eli. This whole this degree is better than yours and will buy me X amount more than what you can afford is crap. Making a lot of money requires business savvy, luck, and a good product. I know a plumber is making more than any GP I know. He runs a very successful business. Money wont buy happiness and go into a field you enjoy. The people judging you by your degree or how much money you make on here are likely the people you wouldn't want being your health care provider anyway! Anyway time to enjoy my little vacation. I hope everyone is safe on SB!

 

[wired202808]

Dentistry is changing, no doubt. Higher tuition, mid level providers, decreased reimbursement, higher competition, etc are all going to take a toll on new dentists. However, it is still a great career that can provide for a good standard of living.

Key point is to be prepared. Be educated on the trends that our profession has, and understand what implications it will have on your future. Instead of dismissing visible trends as "paranoia," or just whine about the potential crash and burn, it would be much more prudent to prepare yourself for what could be tough times ahead. Save money, work on speeding yourself up in clinic, find out what locations are conducive to new practices, etc. There is always a way to succeed, especially when you are in an elite group of educated professions like dentists.

I've said it many times before, most people won't get rich practicing dentistry. As a sole method of income, you must either be a very skilled businessman or a very skilled practitioner (or preferable both) to make a high income (>500K) as a dentist. As much as all of us think we are going to be the top 5% earners, most of us are actually going to be in the 95% average.


How is that true at all? If you have been following this thread, you would realize that all our professions are changing rapidly. No one can say for certain what our incomes will look like after 20 years of practice...

DDS, DO, OD, MD, there are such huge ranges in salaries that there is no, "I make more than you, ha!" There are advantages and disadvantages to all these professions, and we all had our personal reasons for choosing to pursue our goals... it sounds ridiculously contrite to argue which profession's average salary is higher.

Shnurek, I'm sorry but I don't think anyone on this dental thread really care how much OD's make. The entire discussion is really irrelevant to this thread, and in fact to this forum...

While some things are changing and income will fluctuate as a whole MDs and DDS will out earn, they're scope is broader and their function is a lot more vital to the health care industry. In regards to the paranoia, I dont expect to make 500K or more, I'll be happy with 200 thats more than enough to live off

 

[bigbadaboom]

isn't it funny how much income a healthcare degree can get you is the most discussed topic?

goal of being a healthcare provider seems to become not helping people anymore, but rather how much one can make.

in my opinion those looking to profit from healthcare should not be doctors or clinicians, but work in big pharmaceuticals or insurance companies that rake in big $$$.

eliwoohoo is right. We are very fortunate to be the top % income earners in the USA in the careers that we chose. 90k/yr or more gets you in the top 10% bracket. It's just greedy to think that's not enough for one to live on.

 

[charlestweed]

isn't it funny how much income a healthcare degree can get you is the most discussed topic?

goal of being a healthcare provider seems to become not helping people anymore, but rather how much one can make.

in my opinion those looking to profit from healthcare should not be doctors or clinicians, but work in big pharmaceuticals or insurance companies that rake in big $$$.

eliwoohoo is right. We are very fortunate to be the top % income earners in the USA in the careers that we chose. 90k/yr or more gets you in the top 10% bracket. It's just greedy to think that's not enough for one to live on.

When I try to make as much profit as possible, people think I am greedy and I shouldn't be a dentist. When I lower the ortho fees significantly and accept medicaid and HMOs, other orthodontists in the areas give me the dirty look and think that I destroy the ortho profession. No matter what I do, people are never happy.

In my opinion, $90k/year salary is not much, especially if you live in California, where the average home price is $500k. I want to pay for my kids' education. When I am sick, I want to be able to pay for my own medical treatment....and I want to see the best doctor who can help treating my illness. When I am 60-65 years old, I want don't want to end up like some old orthodontists who can't retire. Therefore, I need to make a lot more than $90k/year.

 

[bigbadaboom]

that's real tough you have to raise your child in California. It's super expensive, houses, gasoline, education, state income tax, sales tax, etc. But hey the weather is great. It's no wonder so many families move away to Nevada, Arizona, or Texas. But the welfare programs in California is great too, like Healthy Family for lower income families.
Real estate values in California is just ridiculous. Median household income in California $60,883.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html
the rule of buying a house 2.5 times the income does not apply in California, more like 8 times?
Crazy.

 

[Shnurek]

that's real tough you have to raise your child in California. It's super expensive, houses, gasoline, education, state income tax, sales tax, etc. But hey the weather is great. It's no wonder so many families move away to Nevada, Arizona, or Texas. But the welfare programs in California is great too, like Healthy Family for lower income families.
Real estate values in California is just ridiculous. Median household income in California $60,883.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html
the rule of buying a house 2.5 times the income does not apply in California, more like 8 times?
Crazy.

Indeed. 'Tis too much of a socialist state just like New York. That's exactly why many people move out to states like Texas and states with less big cities in them. So you don't have to support hoodrats aka people on perpetual welfare that just sell drugs on the side. I grew up with people like this around me and I know many that also scammed disability. So much fraud happens with these social programs that its not even funny. Those types of states are good if you make $45k or under but not so good for earners above $100k. They rip you apart with taxes and fees.

 

[yappy]

Bigbadaboom:

I think anyone should be able to charge as high a price for their service as the market can bear in order to optimize their income and provide for their family. Health care is a honest profession that provides an honest wage. What is up with this paradoxical logic that the more valuable a service/good the cheaper it should be treated? If ortho or medicine is valued greatly it's because it has a real-world-value it should be paid for as such.

I read the other day that a woman become rich because she made a novel piece of female clothing (good for her!). Surely, the emergency room doctor who studied so hard and provides a service of value should be able to ask for market value compensation too.

Health care services are not a right. It is a privlidge for those who are in a geographical and financial position to receive them.

 

[bigbadaboom]

Hey it's a free market in the USA the last time I checked.
It sure is a lucrative "business" in this country, dominated by drug companies.
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v1n4/healthy.html

 

[bigbadaboom]

Bigbadaboom:

I think anyone should be able to charge as high a price for their service as the market can bear in order to optimize their income and provide for their family. Health care is a honest profession that provides an honest wage. What is up with this paradoxical logic that the more valuable a service/good the cheaper it should be treated? If ortho or medicine is valued greatly it's because it has a real-world-value it should be paid for as such.

I read the other day that a woman become rich because she made a novel piece of female clothing (good for her!). Surely, the emergency room doctor who studied so hard and provides a service of value should be able to ask for market value compensation too.

Health care services are not a right. It is a privlidge for those who are in a geographical and financial position to receive them.

tell that to Obama.
I don't think it's constitutional that I have to BUY health insurance. On the other hand I am all for tax funded health care for low incomes like Medicaid.

 

[yappy]

IMO - two options:

1.) Repeal EMTALA and insurance mandate.

2.) keep both

I dont see how you can expect a hospital to see people in the ED by law and not make patients pay. Though, like you, I'm in favor of option 1.

tell that to Obama.
I don't think it's constitutional that I have to BUY health insurance. On the other hand I am all for tax funded health care for low incomes like Medicaid.

 

[Firm]

isn't it funny how much income a healthcare degree can get you is the most discussed topic?

goal of being a healthcare provider seems to become not helping people anymore, but rather how much one can make.

in my opinion those looking to profit from healthcare should not be doctors or clinicians, but work in big pharmaceuticals or insurance companies that rake in big $$$.

eliwoohoo is right. We are very fortunate to be the top % income earners in the USA in the careers that we chose. 90k/yr or more gets you in the top 10% bracket. It's just greedy to think that's not enough for one to live on.

Are you still in school? 90k/yr is great if you don't have a ton of student and practice loans to pay back. If you have to take out $3-600,000 to go to school then another $300,000 to open a practice then no 90k/yr is not enough to live on. You've already lost 8-11 years of income potential being in school, add additional years if you are doing a start up office. You are doing a physically intensive job that limits the number of years that you can work. You have to go deeper in debt just to produce an income unlike medicine or pharmacy where they can get a job with a corporation and that job is not physically demanding.

 

[A6project]

right

 

[birdsflyinghigh]

if u seriously think like that, you got some issues dude.
What do you think makes us, human beings, so different from other species?
Access to health care is a noble human right. Not a service. We are not animals in the jungle where the strongest survives and the weakest dies.

We got problems with deficits, obama care, medicaid/care and a bunch of craps along with them. Whatever the best solution it may be, it doesn't matter. Hopefully we find a way to compensate those hard working people and prevent people enjoying free rides and taking an advantage of programs. But people should know that access to health care is undeniably a human right.

As a future dentist/health care provider, i will be honestly disgraced to have people thinking like that in the health care field.

+1

 

[yappy]

What you say simply is not true. If it were, people in remote regions of the world would have access (geography) and health care would not cause such financial hardships for providers who are shutting their doors or entitlement programs that are going bankrupt (finances).

It is a privilege for those who live in an area where there exists an infrastructure to deliver care and enough financial resources to provide it. If you doubt this move to a remote area and open a practice and operate it at a financial loss. How long will you be able to treat patients for?

Exchange your superfluous ideals for reality. It is not a human right. It is a service that costs money to provide and requires skilled people to carry it out. They're no ones servents and materials & labor cost money.

if u seriously think like that, you got some issues dude.
what do you think makes us, human beings, so different from other species?
Access to health care is a NOBLE HUMAN RIGHT. NOT A SERVICE. We are not animals in the jungle where the strongest survives and the weakest dies.

we got problems with deficits, obama care, medicaid/care and a bunch of craps along with them. Whatever the best solution it may be, it doesn't matter. Hopefully we find a way to compensate those hard working people and prevent people enjoying free rides and taking an advantage of programs. BUT people should know that access to health care is undeniably a human right.

As a future dentist/health care provider, I will be honestly disgraced to have people thinking like that in the health care field.

 

[A6project]

right

 

[Shnurek]

if u seriously think like that, you got some issues dude.
what do you think makes us, human beings, so different from other species?
Access to health care is a NOBLE HUMAN RIGHT. NOT A SERVICE. We are not animals in the jungle where the strongest survives and the weakest dies.

we got problems with deficits, obama care, medicaid/care and a bunch of craps along with them. Whatever the best solution it may be, it doesn't matter. Hopefully we find a way to compensate those hard working people and prevent people enjoying free rides and taking an advantage of programs. BUT people should know that access to health care is undeniably a human right.

As a future dentist/health care provider, I will be honestly disgraced to have people thinking like that in the health care field.

Ha, its still going to happen. Natural selection may be blunted in humans but it still happens on a macro scale. If you feel Yappy is unethical you should read what countless physicians have wrote about spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of government insurance money to extend terminally ill patients lives by one or two months. There is a huge gray area about where that line of "its no longer worth it" is drawn. Would that money be put to better use to save a child's life for example? Tough decisions indeed.

 

[Bereno]

Health care is not a right... Just like shelter is not a right, nor is food a right. You must work for, and earn these services. These services are also some of the great accomplishments of modern society, but by no means are they a right.

 

[A6project]

hmmm interesting.

 

[Bereno]

hmmm interesting.. you guys are obvi smart and reasonable. Judging from you guys' numerous posts, you don't come across as greedy or self-centered.
I've never though of health care in that way... do you mind sending me good links or PM me? I wanna ask questions, learn, and try to see it from different perspective.
I won't change my mind, but it will be interesting.
mods will not allow political talk here. Plus someone will jump in and instigate everything and everyone.

PM'd

 

[mike3kgt]

hmmm interesting.. you guys are obvi smart and reasonable. Judging from you guys' numerous posts, you don't come across as greedy or self-centered.
I've never though of health care in that way... do you mind sending me good links or PM me? I wanna ask questions, learn, and try to see it from different perspective.
I won't change my mind, but it will be interesting.
mods will not allow political talk here. Plus someone will jump in and instigate everything and everyone.

We see this many times on this forum, especially when the title says "Pre-X" i.e. "Pre-Dental" or "Pre-Med".

It changes a little when you go from "Pre-X" to "X Student".

It changes dramatically when you go from "X Student" to "Dentist" or "Physician".

Spend a few years in public health or in a medicaid type office and you may change your tune. Some do not and still practice what they preach but many (if not the vast majority) will see the realities instead of the ideals.