Is there truly a difference between the top 10 schools?

[1Sail0r]

I've seen a couple times on this forum that "Harvard and Hopkins are in their own league" and one person even went so far as to say that when it comes to applying for residencies students that graduated from Harvard and Hopkins are placed in their own pile and evaluated separately. Is any of this true or is it all hogwash?

I'm curious as to whether it would really make a difference when applying to residency if you graduated from Hopkins vs UPenn or even Columbia. Also, how much is the name worth to you? Up to how much more would you pay to go to a top 2 school?

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[DermViser]

No. Not for the top tier - not enough to make a difference.

 

[Narmerguy]

None of that will likely make any difference. I wouldn't pay any extra to go to a school simply because of its name, but I would pay quite a bit more to go to a school that delivers what I want--which is what I'm doing.

 

[Goro]

As LizzyM has pointed out, the top schools train you not only to be doctors, but leaders of doctors. PIs, Deans, Chiefs and Chairs, etc.

I've seen a couple times on this forum that "Harvard and Hopkins are in their own league" and one person even went so far as to say that when it comes to applying for residencies students that graduated from Harvard and Hopkins are placed in their own pile and evaluated separately. Is any of this true or is it all hogwash?

I'm curious as to whether it would really make a difference when applying to residency if you graduated from Hopkins vs UPenn or even Columbia. Also, how much is the name worth to you? Up to how much more would you pay to go to a top 2 school?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Factors such as financial aid, location, and curriculum (and others) are usually considered when applicants choose among these schools. And for many, it goes beyond a "top 10." For example, someone with a Geffen scholarship may take UCLA over Hopkins and Harvard.

 

[1Sail0r]

None of that will likely make any difference. I wouldn't pay any extra to go to a school simply because of its name, but I would pay quite a bit more to go to a school that delivers what I want--which is what I'm doing.

What could a top 2 school offer/deliver over another top 10 school though? I'm just curious, if you could elaborate that would be helpful.

 

[Narmerguy]

What could a top 2 school offer/deliver over another top 10 school though? I'm just curious, if you could elaborate that would be helpful.

It really has nothing to do with being a top 2 school vs top 10 vs top 20. If the school offers things that someone wants (curriculum, location, research, dual degrees, hospitals, personal connections, etc) and they deem that to be worth paying for, then that's the school. It may be the case that Mayo, for example, is the school with the combination of things that you want, even if it is not ranked in the top 10, and that's where someone ends up attending regardless of whether they were accepted to HMS or Penn or Hopkins, etc.

Each school has their strengths, often these strengths don't matter enough to an applicant to really make one that different from the other. You can be successful coming from any school as the biggest factors in your success will be other things like clinical grades, step 1, research, etc. But in some cases someone may want specific things a school offers, and this entirely depends on the applicants priorities and what they value. I suppose if going to a top 2 school is something someone really valued, that would be all the justification they needed to choose that school over others, but that would seem pretty strange to me.

 

[mariambaby3]

What about top 20? Are there any differences among the top 20 schools?

 

[Lawpy]

What about top 20? Are there any differences among the top 20 schools?

If anything, the differences are negligible

 

[blackkrim]

Out of curiosity: what is everyone using to define the top schools? USNWR rankings or something else?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Out of curiosity: what is everyone using to define the top schools? USNWR rankings or something else?

It's usually US News. I don't agree with those rankings, but I realize that most ppl refer to them when using "top whatever" categories so I end up using that list as a frame of reference myself. I guess US News and those schools prefer it that way
And I'm not taking anything away from HMS, Penn, etc, but it does get tiresome...

 

[blackkrim]

It's usually US News. I don't agree with those rankings, but I realize that most ppl refer to them when using "top whatever" categories so I end up using that list as a frame of reference myself. I guess US News and those schools prefer it that way
And I'm not taking anything away from HMS, Penn, etc, but it does get tiresome...

There are some schools that are obvious choices, like Harvard, Hopkins, and UCSF, but which rankings are people really concerned with? US News--which is an irrelevant magazine existing solely to publish its rankings-- lists both "Primary Care" and "Research" rankings.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

There are some schools that are obvious choices, like Harvard, Hopkins, and UCSF, but which rankings are people really concerned with? US News--which is an irrelevant magazine existing solely to publish its rankings-- lists both "Primary Care" and "Research" rankings.

From my experience, it's typically the US News research rankings.

 

[deanthedream17]

As LizzyM has pointed out, the top schools train you not only to be doctors, but leaders of doctors. PIs, Deans, Chiefs and Chairs, etc.

ehh maybe. I spoke to my dad about this. You will find graduates from all those so called "tiers" doing all those things even in the top places. A US MD really won't limit you where ever you get it.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

If anything, the differences are negligible

The top 10 will have a greater number of labs with extravagant grants.

Coming from a small state school I used to think funding fixed all of the problems in research, now I'm at the NIH;
"Mo Money Mo Problems" - Biggie

 

[claduva94]

I think it really does come down to how a school fits your desires. Quite a few people are ranking oriented and I really think that is a poor way to go about medical admissions. If I feel my state school fits my passions, there is no way I would pay more to go to Harvard or Hopkins.

 

[allantois]

From my experience, it's typically the US News research rankings.

What's tier 1, tier 2, and 3 on that ranking? I'm assuming tier 3 is all those schools which are unranked.

 

[aegistitan]

does pedigree matter for residency match? Say if you were comparing a top 20 to your local state school to save money?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

What's tier 1, tier 2, and 3 on that ranking? I'm assuming tier 3 is all those schools which are unranked.

I have no idea. Different ppl have different criteria for this. I see stuff like "upper mid-tier" "middle-of-the-road" etc. I feel that each applicant should have their own informed standards for med school. And it's my feeling that the US News "top whatever" is actually not relevant to most med school applicants.

 

[allantois]

I have no idea. Different ppl have different criteria for this. I see stuff like "upper mid-tier" "middle-of-the-road" etc. I feel that each applicant should have their own informed standards for med school. And it's my feeling that the US News "top whatever" is actually not relevant to most med school applicants.

I don't think it's relevant either; the majority of people don't get to be so picky about med school.I was just wondering since I see people saying Tier 1/2/3 on this forum quite often...

 

[listener23]

It might in terms of talking to an average person walking down the street. Even though Harvard and john Hopkins are on the same level I feel like non educated people might recognize Harvard a lot more

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I don't think it's relevant either; the majority of people don't get to be so picky about med school.I was just wondering since I see people saying Tier 1/2/3 on this forum quite often...

There's probably a loose consensus of tier 1 top 25-30
Tier 2 31-50
Tier 3 the rest
I'm just speculating here. I could be totally off. Although, such broad criteria usually lacks substance.

 

[Goro]

Concur, if we're talking about churning out good doctors. Anyplace from Albany to Wake Forest will give you a fine education. I've known Harvard- and UCSF-trained docs, and docs from Rosy Franklin and IU and they're fine.

ehh maybe. I spoke to my dad about this. You will find graduates from all those so called "tiers" doing all those things even in the to places. A US MD really won't limit you where ever you get it.

The top tiers are more selective, high more research funding, do more cutting edge research, and have matriculant scores towards the top of the scales (ex. Wash U, JHU)
What's tier 1, tier 2, and 3 on that ranking? I'm assuming tier 3 is all those schools which are unranked.

 

[allantois]

It might in terms of talking to an average person walking down the street. Even though Harvard and john Hopkins are on the same level I feel like non educated people might recognize Harvard a lot more

I was actually completely unaware that UCSF is top 5 until I looked at that US ranking today. I know a doctor who went there for med school and she just never makes a big deal out of it, which is not what I would expect from someone from Harvard.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

does pedigree matter for residency match? Say if you were comparing a top 20 to your local state school to save money?

If no one answers you, check the Allo forum. This may also vary depending on the speciality.

 

[listener23]

I was actually completely unaware that UCSF is top 5 until I looked at that US ranking today. I know a doctor who went there for med school and she just never makes a big deal out of it, which is not what I would expect from someone from Harvard.

Lol i was unaware until you just replied to me and I have a MCAT in a couple weeks

 

[Amba]

It might in terms of talking to an average person walking down the street. Even though Harvard and john Hopkins are on the same level I feel like non educated people might recognize Harvard a lot more

...and this matters, why?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I was actually completely unaware that UCSF is top 5 until I looked at that US ranking today. I know a doctor who went there for med school and she just never makes a big deal out of it, which is not what I would expect from someone from Harvard.

Lol i was unaware until you just replied to me and I have a MCAT in a couple weeks

I think Wash U also falls into this category.
Edit: and @Amba magically materializes!

 

[listener23]

...and this matters, why?

OP asked if theres a difference in the top 10 and there is to non-educated or people who stop at bachelors. Most of his patients will only have a bachelors or no college degree at all. And to them: Harvard & Yale >everything else....

 

[Amba]

OP asked if theres a difference in the top 10 and there is to non-educated or people who stop at bachelors. Most of his patients will only have a bachelors or no college degree at all. And to them: Harvard & Yale >everything else....

Nah, OP asked if there was a difference for residency apps:

I'm curious as to whether it would really make a difference when applying to residency if you graduated from Hopkins vs UPenn or even Columbia. Also, how much is the name worth to you? Up to how much more would you pay to go to a top 2 school?

 

[deanthedream17]

Concur, if we're talking about churning out good doctors. Anyplace from Albany to Wake Forest will give you a fine education. I've known Harvard- and UCSF-trained docs, and docs from Rosy Franklin and IU and they're fine.

ehh maybe. I spoke to my dad about this. You will find graduates from all those so called "tiers" doing all those things even in the to places. A US MD really won't limit you where ever you get it.

I was talking about that you're not going to be limited to achieve a Director, Dean, etc. or any of those positions you named in the top schools as long as you graduate from a US MD. The top schools are not the best because they give you a better education. Your education is like college you get out what you put in. They are better in that you are able to establish connections and network the hell out of each other, that is the strongest reason for going to a school like Harvard

 

[allantois]

OP asked if theres a difference in the top 10 and there is to non-educated or people who stop at bachelors. Most of his patients will only have a bachelors or no college degree at all. And to them: Harvard & Yale >everything else....

I think that most people, educated or not, think rather highly of doctors regardless of where they went to school, even if it was some place abroad. I highly doubt all those folks actually suspect that their dermatologist was perhaps #1 in his med class at Yale

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

OP asked if theres a difference in the top 10 and there is to non-educated or people who stop at bachelors. Most of his patients will only have a bachelors or no college degree at all. And to them: Harvard & Yale >everything else....

Most ppl don't care where doctors went to med school. They just want to get better. I don't think they arbitrarily put 2 med schools above the rest anyway.

 

[allantois]

I was talking about that you're not going to be limited to achieve a Director, Dean, etc. or any of those positions you named in the top schools as long as you graduate from a US MD. The top schools are not the best because they give you a better education. Your education is like college you get out what you put in. They are better in that you are able to establish connections and network the hell out of each other, that is the strongest reason for going to a school like Harvard

We can also then agree that those who went to US DO can too settle as Directors, Deans, etc.

 

[deanthedream17]

We can also then agree that those who went to US DO can too settle as Directors, Deans, etc.

sure I can't disagree. I would say for so called top tier hospitals it usually is MD.

 

[Greenberg702]

As LizzyM has pointed out, the top schools train you not only to be doctors, but leaders of doctors. PIs, Deans, Chiefs and Chairs, etc.

Let it be known that some of the biggest chairmen in medicine did NOT attend top 10 schools: Berger - UCSF neurosurgery chairman: U Miami, Orlow - NYU derm chairman: Einstein, Todd Albert - The new surgeon in chief of Hospital for Special Surgery: UVA as well as countless others

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I've seen a couple times on this forum that "Harvard and Hopkins are in their own league" and one person even went so far as to say that when it comes to applying for residencies students that graduated from Harvard and Hopkins are placed in their own pile and evaluated separately. Is any of this true or is it all hogwash?

I'm curious as to whether it would really make a difference when applying to residency if you graduated from Hopkins vs UPenn or even Columbia. Also, how much is the name worth to you? Up to how much more would you pay to go to a top 2 school?

does pedigree matter for residency match? Say if you were comparing a top 20 to your local state school to save money?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-much-does-pedigree-matter-for-top-residencies.1081216/
This was actually discussed a few days ago.

OP, for various reasons, match lists are difficult to interpret, but if you look at data for the "top 10" schools, you'll see a lot of similar places.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Let it be known that some of the biggest chairmen in medicine did NOT attend top 10 schools: Berger - UCSF neurosurgery chairman: U Miami, Orlow - NYU derm chairman: Einstein, Todd Albert - The new surgeon in chief of Hospital for Special Surgery: UVA as well as countless others

Todd Albert is an interesting example. HSS recruited him from Jefferson. There are some "not top whatever US News schools" that have very prestigious departments in certain fields. The Jeff ortho department is among the best.

 

[Greenberg702]

Todd Albert is an interesting example. HSS recruited him from Jefferson. There are some "not top whatever US News schools" that have very prestigious departments in certain fields. The Jeff ortho department is among the best.

Right but he was an attending there. He got his MD from UVa.

 

[deanthedream17]

How about Dr. James Andrews? He's pretty much the most known name in sports injuries. He went to Tulane.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Right but he was an attending there. He got his MD from UVa.

Richard Gelberman, the ortho chair at Wash U is another example. He attended the University of Tennessee med school.

 

[ChEMD]

As LizzyM has pointed out, the top schools train you not only to be doctors, but leaders of doctors. PIs, Deans, Chiefs and Chairs, etc.

That's a silly statement, how is the education any different at one of these top schools in comparison to others?

Now I will agree that there is inbreeding with top schools and top residencies, which can breed leaders, but to say that students at these medical schools are specially trained to be leaders just isn't factual.

 

[Greenberg702]

Richard Gelberman, the ortho chair at Wash U is another example. He attended the University of Tennessee med school.

How about Dr. Lawrence Andrews? He's pretty much the most known name in sports injuries. He went to Tulane.

Yep. Chairman of neurosurgery at Wash U went to UVa (although UVa is big in nsgy) and the neurosurgery chairman at Penn went to Georgetown. Chairman of neurosurgery at Cornell went to Wisconsin. Chairman of plastics at NYU went to the medical college of Virginia. In all honesty there are waaay too many examples to list. Just wanted to make a point.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Yep. Chairmen of neurosurgery at Wash U and Penn both went to UVa (although UVa is big in nsgy). Chairman of neurosurgery at Cornell went to Wisconsin. Chairman of plastics at NYU went to the medical college of Virginia. In all honesty there are waaay too many examples to list. Just wanted to make a point.

I think UVA is famous for producing neurosurgery chairs. It'd be nice if Uncle Harvey were up...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

How about Dr. Lawrence Andrews? He's pretty much the most known name in sports injuries. He went to Tulane.

It's James Andrews.

 

[Greenberg702]

It's James Andrews.

lol

 

[deanthedream17]

It's James Andrews.

Yeah you're right lol. I was thinking of my hand surgeon.

 

[LMBLBM]

I guess I will never be dean nor chair

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I guess I will never be dean nor chair

So I'm guessing you're not attending UVA.

 

[LMBLBM]

So I'm guessing you're not attending UVA.

Nope. I am far away from UVA according to USNEWS. I guess I need to find the cure for AIDS during medical school and find drugs for human immortality during my derm residency.