MD & DO Is Ultrasound Taught in Your Medical School?

[@Hazel-rah]

I’m working on a petition to our medical school to increase our exposure to POCUS early on and frequently.

Please help me get a better understanding of:

IF ultrasound is taught at other medical schools.

IF YES, please describe.

WHETHER IT SHOULD BE taught in medical school.

(Im specifically curious if any medical students have access to a portable U/S that they can take and practice with at home or check out at their sim lab.)

If you have any really meaningful response, but don’t want to compromise your anonymity, feel free to PM me!

Examples and references would be appreciated, too! Trying to build a good case and proposal.

Thanks!

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[deleted480308]

I’m working on a petition to our medical school to increase our exposure to POCUS early on and frequently.

Please help me get a better understanding of:

IF ultrasound is taught at other medical schools.

IF YES, please describe.

WHETHER IT SHOULD BE taught in medical school.

(Im specifically curious if any medical students have access to a portable U/S that they can take and practice with at home or check out at their sim lab.)

If you have any really meaningful response, but don’t want to compromise your anonymity, feel free to PM me!

Examples and references would be appreciated, too! Trying to build a good case and proposal.

Thanks!

Now that I’m in hospital I can see it’s very useful for auditions but it just plain isn’t used as much in actual residency as it was pitched to be by med schools

 

[@Hazel-rah]

Now that I’m in hospital I can see it’s very useful for auditions but it just plain isn’t used as much in actual residency as it was pitched to be by med schools

So was it taught to you in medical school or not? If so, how?

 

[deleted480308]

So was it taught to you in medical school or not? If so, how?

Yes in group sessions.

No, it was not as useful to hospital life as it was pitched to be

 

[Chibucks15]

So was it taught to you in medical school or not? If so, how?

We have group sessions and open labs, along with speakers and demos and such. I feel like if you're going into any other field but EM it won't really be all that helpful for you to learn

 

[sinombre]

Now that I’m in hospital I can see it’s very useful for auditions but it just plain isn’t used as much in actual residency as it was pitched to be by med schools

In what kind of residency?

I was barely exposed in medical school, but as a surgery resident it is extremely useful.

 

[Chibucks15]

We are taught in both M1 and M2 in groups. I'm just a baby M1 so I can't say how helpful it will be or not.

That being said, from a patient perspective, I was blown out of the ****ing water to find out my neck US at the hospital would cost be about 1k after insurance. Have had a transvaginal one at a private clinic that was about 300 after insurance as well. I plan to keep this in mind for future patients in the effort of asking myself if there is something just as useful (in the context of their presentation obviously) that is cheaper.

From what I've heard (haven't had direct billing experience) US are one of the cheapest options...

EDIT: when it comes to imaging that can get you the same results in regards to tissue visualization, etc

 

[operaman]

We had a small smattering of it offered as part of our regular curriculum. I took a couple electives to get more exposure and found it very helpful.

I haven’t used it much recently but it’s a nice tool to have. I used it for line and iv placements as an intern, diagnostically in the icu, and still use it sporadically in clinic or on call.

I think it’s worth teaching med students how to use it, even if many won’t end up using it very much in practice. If I’m honest, I’ve probably used an ultrasound probe more in the last 2 years than I have a stethoscope and we still learn how to use those! It’s a great tool though and finds its way into many procedures so it’s never too early to start learning.

 

[Psai]

It is useful in the OR and the ICU. It is probably useful because you need to be good when you need it. I'm teaching the basics of holding ultrasound and how to fan the probe for our students and interns. I don't use TEE on a regular basis either but I know how to do it and can spot the basic findings.

 

[Ho0v-man]

It’s taught at my school as a pass/fail class. It was one of the appealing things about the school when I applied but honestly between labs, practicals, and assignments, it just ends up being yet another time sink. I’d rather not have yet another mandatory thing. If you stay at the school for third year they incorporate it into the didactics for the residents and med students and I think that would be a little cooler tbh.

 

[FMDoge2020]

It really depends on specialty and quite a few uses them on daily basis.

Yes it is taught and it probably will be useful

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[SouthernGent]

We get like 3 days of it, but when I get the chance to work in our ED every now and then it is used heavily. I personally wish that we would be given more training and experience with it, it does seem to be rather useful and practical.

If I recall from the interview trail, EVMS was very big on advertising their US training as part of their curriculum. @mcatjelly would be able to say what it is actually like though.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Now that I’m in hospital I can see it’s very useful for auditions but it just plain isn’t used as much in actual residency as it was pitched to be by med schools

Maybe it's bc I'm EM, but I had a totally opposite experience. My school taught POCUS somewhat, and it was offered as an EM elective, but I use it pretty extensively now as a resident. FAST exams, RUSH exams, TTE, pelvics, DVT studies, gallblader studies as well as for vascular access (CVLs, PVLs, HD caths), Thoras, Paras, Knee taps and even just to look at abscesses. I use ultrasound literally every shift, multiple times daily. Super useful skillset.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yes, and I wanted to die every time I had to use SonoSim

 

[CherryRedDracul]

It's taught at my program's medical school and I'm a volunteer instructor.

 

[21Rush12]

We don’t have it preclinically. I’ve had chances to use it on rotations so far but honestly I think it’s low yield compared to what your focus has to be in the first two years. It’s definitely something you can catch on and learn quickly as a third or fourth year IMO.

 

[alprazoslam]

Yeah it’s taught but not past the extent of letting us know it exsist. Don’t remmeber much

 

[Angus Avagadro]

US is clinical. Should not get much exposure in pre clinical.TEE in OR, and US in ER, MSK US in PMR are all clinical and should be introduced on clinical rotations.

 

[alprazoslam]

US is clinical. Should not get much exposure in pre clinical.TEE in OR, and US in ER, MSK US in PMR are all clinical and should be introduced on clinical rotations.

For some reason my school had a hard on for it even though we did not get enough x ray and CT stuff. You know the stuff actually on boards.

Now that we are in clinicals US would be cool. More in fourth year but nobody on campus then to learn it.

 

[BunnyMan17]

My school actually puts an emphasis on US and we usually have several 2 hour hands on sessions per module with online lectures to watch. eFAST, RUSH, general cardiac, gallbladder/GI, DVT, pulmonary (especially pneumothorax), MSK, neurovascular access, all the fun OBGYN related scans, etc. It's quite useful if you have enough personnel trained on it.

This summer I took additional training and spent some time internationally teaching local physicians how to use US in their ERs and general practice clinics. It can be a lifesaver in austere environments.

 

[FistLength]

It's nice to have in your back pocket but unless your in ICU or ED it's probably worthless. You are going to overcall things because you aren't experienced enough, and if you see something, you are going to order a formal echo anyway. If you hallucinate RV strain in a patient with SOB, are you going to start them on a heparin drip for suspected PE? probably not, you will get a CT scan and if you can't do that because of AKI you will order stat echo. Didn't change management, even if you are correct (probably will not be until you get a lot of experience)

 

[Mad Jack]

Our EM club had regular ultrasound sessions in my medical school, and my medical school also had some ultrasound training. It did zero good to help at any point so far in my education.

 

[@Hazel-rah]

I’m really surprised by the majority lack of enthusiasm, but appreciate everyone for sharing honestly.

I see u/s as becoming like an adjunct to the stethoscope. I can think of an example for almost any specialty to be able to benefit from it, but like someone said, you have to know how to use it——-hence my interest in better training.

At this point, though, sounds like my best move forward is to pursue it independently rather than trying to subject my whole class to it...

Thanks everyone and any further comments are appreciated!

 

[W19]

I was only exposed to it during my obgyn rotation... I haven't needed it so far in my training, but I was told I might during my EM month in PGY2 and PGY3

 

[Medic741]

Depends on who’s teaching it. My school incorporates ultrasound, but it’s taught by non-expert student TA’s with no clinical ultrasound experience leading to a fundamentally meaningless experience.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Depends on who’s teaching it. My school incorporates ultrasound, but it’s taught by non-expert student TA’s with no clinical ultrasound experience leading to a fundamentally meaningless experience.

Mines taught by an MD/PhD with constant US research getting pumped out. It’s still a waste of time.

 

[BurntFlower]

Yes, we have ultrasound sessions at Wayne State. It's in small groups and it is integrated into our curriculum.

 

[nimbus]

Without context it’s probably a waste of time. When it emerged in my specialty it took off like wildfire because everybody recognized how useful it is. Truly a game changer. I wouldn’t even consider doing a nerve block or inserting a line without one now. I use it daily, often several times per day, in anesthesia practice.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

My school was super heavily into it.

In FM residency I used it during OB clinic a decent bit (we did all first trimester dating scans ourselves). Outside of that, never used it and now that I'm out in practice I have not come across situations where I've said "man, I wish we had an ultrasound machine".

 

[7331poas]

Dear God don't make the US sessions mandatory.

Some may like it, but like others have mentioned, it is useless in most settings and only takes away from study time.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

My school has introduced ultrasound into our curriculum this year. I'm just an OMS-1, but I don't find ultrasound to be boring or taking away from studying time mainly because we do it during anatomy lab or during our clinical skills course hours, not in a separate course on its own.

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[7331poas]

My school have introduced ultrasound into our curriculum this year. I'm just an OMS-1, but I don't find ultrasound to be boring or taking away from studying time mainly because we do it during anatomy lab or during our clinical skills course hours, not in a separate course on its own.

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Just because it is during lab doesn't mean it doesn't take away from your time. You could have been out of lab earlier alternatively .

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Just because it is during lab doesn't mean it doesn't take away from your time. You could have been out of lab earlier alternatively .

I doubt it. It usually is either this or do more dissections.

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[Ho0v-man]

Wait, does no one else have US practicals?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Wait, does no one else have US practicals?

I don't. We only have like 2 or 3 ultrasound questions on our anatomy lecture exams.

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[Ho0v-man]

I don't. We only have like 2 or 3 ultrasound questions on our anatomy lecture exams.

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lol I’d like it too then. At my school we have practicals where they say “ find this structure in this plane and obtain measurements of this”. Then they start the timer. It like a lower stress anatomy practical.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

lol I’d like it too then. At my school we have practicals where they say “ find this structure in this plane and obtain measurements of this”. Then they start the timer. It like a lower stress anatomy practical.

Lol yeah, that sounds horrible. I already hate anatomy lab practicals, I would hate this even more. We only have like 2 or 3 US pictures on our anatomy lecture exams asking us to identify some structures.

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[BunnyMan17]

Wait, does no one else have US practicals?

We do, the lecture portion is a ~20 min lecture they recorded for us to watch where the doc talks and uses an US screen capture.
Our actual learning is a small group where there are ~4-8 students, 1 doc, and 1 US hooked up to a large TV. The doc will explain and show us how to find a particular view and/or pathology. Each student takes a turn trying as the doc walks them through it. We move on to the next view, repeat, etc.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Wow t

We do, the lecture portion is a ~20 min lecture they recorded for us to watch where the doc talks and uses an US screen capture.
Our actual learning is a small group where there are ~4-8 students, 1 doc, and 1 US hooked up to a large TV. The doc will explain and show us how to find a particular view and/or pathology. Each student takes a turn trying as the doc walks them through it. We move on to the next view, repeat, etc.

Wow that sounds way better than mine! I might enjoy it if it were like that.