Issues in dog breeding...

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Nexx

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Hey, read this UK article yesterday and thought you all might like it as well. It highlights some interesting points. I've also attached a link to the video series mentioned in the article, both of them are worth taking some time to look at.

Article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5512620.ece

Video: (Video 1 is stuffed up a bit, the rest are fine)
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/pedigree+dogs+exposed

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I've been following this since the original documentaries came out last year. My (very short oh-god-I-have-too-much-to-do-why-am-I-on-SDN-version of my) opinion is that while much of this has merit, a lot of it is not really taking aim at some of the root issues. This reaction by the Kennel Club is merely a band-aid of sorts that was trotted out quickly to appease the public and the media, before enough research could be compiled to actually form longer-lasting strategies that will enhance purebred dogs while still maintaining them as purebreds. In the long run, this won't work.
 
I feel that most of this has to do with improper breeding techniques, as opposed to breed standards. What is it going to help for a bulldog to not have a underbite, but a nose set back farther? I read the article in haste and may have interpretted it wrong, but it seems a little absurd. Some breeds, such as the pekingnese, have remained virtually unchanged for centuries. Why change them now? Inbreeding has produced a plethora of health problems. I would've advised the woman with the Cavalier King Charles to have it put down(poor quality of life and very painful). The problem is when people breed a dog that expresses an unfavorable or healthful phenotype.
 
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What about removing the mandate on ear/tail cropping/docking for different breeds if you're really concerned about animal welfare? I've never bred dogs, but to my understanding this is still required for some breeds -- correct me if I'm wrong.
I saw a tail dock on a 3do yorkie puppy for the first time last month (and I've worked in a vet clinic for six years) and couldn't believe how senseless and brutal it was! If someone can give me a good reason why that poor creature needed to have its tail sliced off by a scalpel in order to lead a healthy life, I would love to hear it.
 
But the pekingese hasn't remained unchanged for centuries. I doubt the original breeders were using a closed stud book and working towards some competitive standard where "when viewed from the side, the chin, nose leather and brow all lie in one plane, which slants very slightly backward from chin to forehead. " (The AKC standard)

Just for comparison, here are a couple of older style peke pictures:
http://caninecoalition.com/img/Pekingese--0.jpg
http://pekines.info/UserFiles/AhCum2.jpg

And here's one now:
http://stripduke.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/20/jeroenbobleiden_3.jpg

You'll note that the show peke's face is shorter than the older ones. Seriously, how do these dogs keep themselves cool? The pushed in faces don't serve the dog. Neither do the short, bowed legs (also part of the standard.) They serve the whims and fashions of show breeders trying to compete with one another.

Frankly, this whole "absolutely pure blood-lines, unchanged through the ages" thing that many dog breeders perpetuate has always sounded like romantic bunk to me.
 
What about removing the mandate on ear/tail cropping/docking for different breeds if you're really concerned about animal welfare? I've never bred dogs, but to my understanding this is still required for some breeds -- correct me if I'm wrong.... If someone can give me a good reason why that poor creature needed to have its tail sliced off by a scalpel in order to lead a healthy life, I would love to hear it.

Depends on the country you are in. Ear cropping/tail docks/declawing is not permitted in Australia.

Nyanko, yes it is a band-aid solution... but you have to start somewhere. It is probably best to, as the video series states start with a group that has some sort of influence and do it somewhat slowly without fully alienating everyone.

BR549, some of the problems with breeding are that animals are bred to young to fully be able to determine the affects of not only their physical attributes, but also the affect of congenital diseases that don't present themselves until later in life (talking 3-4 years of age) or in the case of Boxers (as an example) a deadly arrhythmia that may not appear until 7 or 8 years of age. There are breeders that care and -try- to do all that they can, or all that they know to do, but dog breeding is essentially an unregulated industry and we are there to pick up the pieces. I'd personally rather pick up less pieces than I half to and would like to see healthier animals overall.

The holisitic (sorry to generalise) folks talk about how we are seeing higher and higher incidences of illness/cancer in our companion animals... how much of that might be attributed to genetic components and not because of environment? Golden retrievers and boxers are two breeds that come to mind (and I think were mentioned in the video) as well as labs.

I realise it was in there for some shock value, but when the video talks about having a population of 10,000 individuals who's genetic code basically only represents about 50 distinct individuals it might be time to pause and think about our actions. Perhaps we need to do some cross breeding... you know toss an Australian terrier or two into the West Highland White Terrier line and see what you can do with it.

And to echo Pandacinny, there has been drastic conformational changes in specific breeds over just the past half-century, both in dogs and in cats (persian comes to mind for cats)
 
Depends on the country you are in. Ear cropping/tail docks/declawing is not permitted in Australia.

Good to know, another good reason I should move there. I'm assuming it's not the case in England?
 
"Other breeds to change are the bloodhound, German shepherd hound, basset hound, Saint Bernard, chow chow, the Dogue de Bordeaux and mastiff."

First, I assume "German Shepherd Hound = German Shepherd Dog (never seen 'hound' in place of 'Dog' in the breed name before)

Any idea what the changes they are planning to make to the German Shepherd breed? I've always thought of them as Utility dogs, all around balance. I know their back length seems to be getting a bit out of hand, but any ideas specifically what they want to change in the standards?
 
Any idea what the changes they are planning to make to the German Shepherd breed? I've always thought of them as Utility dogs, all around balance. I know their back length seems to be getting a bit out of hand, but any ideas specifically what they want to change in the standards?

They've got the standard amendments up here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2237
 
I realise it was in there for some shock value, but when the video talks about having a population of 10,000 individuals who's genetic code basically only represents about 50 distinct individuals it might be time to pause and think about our actions. Perhaps we need to do some cross breeding... you know toss an Australian terrier or two into the West Highland White Terrier line and see what you can do with it.

That's precisely what I mean by this being a band-aid. I just don't see it having any real effect at all - alleles that are fixed in the population are fixed. It isn't really going to change much on a population level.
 
They've got the standard amendments up here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2237

It looks as though they completely re-wrote the standards for the Australian Shepherd. Yeah, I figured the pekingnese had changed. I was looking through my CKC book and didn't feel like finding it in the "history of dogs section".

I agree with nyanko that the standards change is just a band-aid. There will always be reputable breeders, who do not allow dogs with congenital deffects to reproduce; however, unfortunately there are also people who just want to make some money and care little for animal welfare (especially puppy mills).
 
I think you're missing the point her, BR. This isn't a "good breeder" versus "bad breeder" issue. It's a closed stud book issue. It's an issue with all breeding from all the kennel clubs. No matter how careful the breeders are, with so little generic diversity in their stock, they will continue to see problems. There's no way to breed the issues out of the stock without increasing diversity, andcthe way show breeding works keeps that from happening. In actuality, some of the "best" breeders showing their dogs and working to standards may be doing just as much harm as backyard breeders.
 
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I gottcha. I was just referring to increase incidences when a particular breed becomes a hot commodity. When I was growing up, the 101 Dalmations movie was released and there was an increase in inbreeding rates among Dalmation breeders because the general public wanted them. Then there was Wishbone... I had just read an article about how the Cavalier King Charles went through the same cycle. This is what I am referring to. Obviously having closed breeding is not natural since any population wants to increase the diversity within their genetics.

I am personally just as happy with a Heinz 57 as I am an AKC, CKC... whatever. :)

As a vet told me once, "A bulldog is everything God intended a dog not to be," as she did surgery on the bulldog I rescued. I got him from people who actually kept him outside in the GA summers!:scared:
 
"What's the story Wishbone? Do you think it's worth a look? It kinda seems familiar, like a story from a book... Shake a leg now, Wishbone! Let's wag another ta-ale... Sniffin' out adventures, with Wishbone on the trail!"

I so couldn't help it! :D

Wishbone was a JRT, not a CKC... ?
 
CKC is the Continental Kennel Club. An organization that registers purebred dogs. I just meant registered animals, since the AKC and CKC are prominent kennel clubs.

Yeah, I don't even think they show Wishbone anymore. Kind of sad!:(
 
Sorry for the shorthand, I was just being lazy. What I meant was, Wishbone is (was? :() a Jack Russel Terrier, not a Cavalier king Charles... correct? I didn't even notice the other "CKC" in your message. :)
 
Sorry for the shorthand, I was just being lazy. What I meant was, Wishbone is (was? :() a Jack Russel Terrier, not a Cavalier king Charles... correct? I didn't even notice the other "CKC" in your message. :)

Yeah, he was a JRT.

LOVED that show.
 
Oh. I'm a little slow sometimes!!:idea: I didn't realize I had run the two ideas together! My bad!
 
Yeah, I don't even think they show Wishbone anymore. Kind of sad!:(

My meager addition to this thread: Yes, Wishbone is on tv. It comes on at 8:30 at night on WETA (D.C. area). My kids enjoy it sometimes (my oldest is only 4, so still a bit young...).
 
Glad to see that good 'ol PBS is still playing the good stuff! I hope that (and Between the Lions) are still playing when I have kiddos.

:hijacked: I didn't mean to! Lol.
 
Seriously, how do these dogs keep themselves cool? The pushed in faces don't serve the dog. Neither do the short, bowed legs (also part of the standard.) They serve the whims and fashions of show breeders trying to compete with one another.
And to echo Pandacinny, there has been drastic conformational changes in specific breeds over just the past half-century, both in dogs and in cats (persian comes to mind for cats)

Agreed... I think this is what Temple Grandin refers to as 'bad becoming normal'. 50 years ago, it wouldn't have been practical to breed bulldogs that can only deliver their pups by C-section. But today, bulldog breeders plan on it for every breeding. It allows them to really exaggerate the narrow hips and wide chests, but is it good for the dog? Should breed standards be encouraging traits that are deterimental to the individual animal? Closed stud books are bad for genotype, and exaggerating physical traits beyond the point that an animal can live and reproduce without veterinary intervention is bad for phenotype.
 
It allows them to really exaggerate the narrow hips and wide chests, but is it good for the dog?

What, you mean you don't want a dog that looks like this?

Hector_the_Bulldog.png



That's the general goal, right? Adorable! :rolleyes:
 
CKC is the Continental Kennel Club. An organization that registers purebred dogs. I just meant registered animals, since the AKC and CKC are prominent kennel clubs.

Yeah, I don't even think they show Wishbone anymore. Kind of sad!:(

No, the Continental Kennel Club is a scam registry used by puppy mills to manufacture papers that aren't worth any more than those used to line their little genetic train wrecks' cages. The Canadian Kennel Club is THE CKC. The only legit registries are the Kennel Club of the UK, the American Kennel Club, the Canadian Kennel Club, the United Kennel Club, FCI, and some of the more working oriented breed specific registries (like the ASCA for Aussies, ABCA for border collies, ADBA for American pit bull terriers, etc). ACA, APRI, ACHC, etc are all scam/puppy mill/designer mutt registries.
 
Skillet, yes! That's exactly what I want my cute little puppy-wuppy to look like! I'll do anything for it, including the C-section, the surgical repairs for brachycephalic syndrome, the dental work to repair the base narrow canines, and the lifetime of care to manage the inevitable elbow osteoarthritis! Oh, and he BETTER love kittens!
6a00b8ea06ece0dece00d4141b9e616a47-320pi


On an unrelated note, I loved Wishbone too! That's where my screenname comes from- when Wishbone would be all sneaky and do into places he wasn't allowed, he would refer to himself as "Stealth Dog". Awww, Wishbone.
 
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