ISU vs LMU (both OOS)

[studentdogtorm]

Hi! I am currently trying to decide between attending Iowa State or Lincoln Memorial. I am currently accepted to LMU for Spring 2025 (deferred my acceptance for spring 2024) and waitlisted to ISU. I am currently trying to make a decision as if I was accepted at ISU, so i am prepared to make a decision if it comes to that.

Background:
I am from Northern Illinois (have never lived elsewhere)
Current interests: Small animal and exotics, though I am also really interested in Mixed Animal Medicine as I would like to be able to help anyone that comes my way (in an ideal world)
I started college at a local community college then transferred to a small private liberal arts college.

Iowa State:
Pros:
Closer to home
Some things to do in the area
Can do mixed animal medicine
This is the CVM the doctor I work for attended
First vet school in us (which i think is cool, but i just like history)

Cons:
From what I understand, exotic experience would be mostly from clubs
Failing policy
Feels a little older with equipment from an outside perspective (i could very well be wrong)
From other students, i’ve been told courses are very rigorous
I have also been told that there is not a lot of support from the staff/professors?

(I am set to attend ISU next weekend for a preview day so I will have more of a perspective then)

Lincoln Memorial:
Pros:
In the middle of “no where” - less distractions
In my interview, professors seemed really kind and nice!
Online tours make the school appear high tech and helpful to learn
From an outside perspective, seems like the college gives more small university vibes
Can do mixed animal or small, unsure about exotics

Cons:
In the middle of “no where” - less ability to get away from school when needed
Far from home
Some of the tech (like the microphones in the lab) makes it feel like it would be harder to make more personable relationships with the profs
No teaching hospital!

(I am currently not scheduled to tour the college but would like to set something up)

What more do I need to research and consider? What are your opinions?

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[supershorty]

What more do I need to research and consider?

Cost. I suspect ISU costs significantly less.

I personally put a huge amount of emphasis on a teaching hospital. I would never choose a program without one over one with it - which isn't to say that distributive model programs don't provide a solid veterinary education, they do a fine job. But from my perspective as a student, I have had so many learning opportunities from being steps away from the hospital that were invaluable. I wouldn't trade them for the world.

 

[JaynaAli]

Cost. I suspect ISU costs significantly less.

I looked at the VIN map and they seemed really similar for OOS, actually? I was gonna say something similar but was surprised.

But I do agree with sporty that if all other things are relatively equal, I would also personally choose a school with a teaching hospital if available.

 

[genny]

Cons:
From what I understand, exotic experience would be mostly from clubs
Failing policy
Feels a little older with equipment from an outside perspective (i could very well be wrong)
From other students, i’ve been told courses are very rigorous
I have also been told that there is not a lot of support from the staff/professors?

I graduated from ISU, so I thought I’d address your cons list.

Exotics - yes, most of the experience comes from clubs. But the veterinarian from the zoo in Des Moines is a faculty member, so there are ways to get into exotics if that’s truly what you want to do. Their lab animal veterinarians are also very friendly and they take student workers every year, so you can get exposure that way as well. ISU is also affiliated with an emergency/referral hospital in Des Moines that sees exotics.

Failing policy/course difficulty - vet school is hard no matter where you go, so the courses are going to be rigorous everywhere. ISU does have a more stringent policy about failing, but it is possible to get back into the school if dismissed academically. In my experience, the students who have not made it through the program didn’t fail out because they weren’t smart enough - the ones that I’m aware of were facing many other major stressors that made it impossible to keep up, and I expect they would have been in trouble academically elsewhere as well.

Support from staff/professors - They’re not going to hold your hand about anything, but if you’re struggling and come to them for help then they help you. It helps if you’re specific about what you need and where the problem lies.

Older equipment - it’s a cutting edge teaching hospital, and has better equipment than most general practices so I don’t know what more you want. I’m sure the classroom equipment has changed since I attended, so I expect the preview day will give you better insight on that.

If ISU isn’t more expensive than LMU for you, then don’t feel any hesitation in picking them if you get off the waitlist. You’ll get a good education and feel well-prepared to practice veterinary medicine.

 

[studentdogtorm]

Older equipment - it’s a cutting edge teaching hospital, and has better equipment than most general practices so I don’t know what more you want. I’m sure the classroom equipment has changed since I attended, so I expect the preview day will give you better insight on that.

Like I said, I could very well wrong with this too. I am more so comparing the fact about how LMU has the facilities with the TVs and microphones set up in the labs/large animal facilities and how their equipment looks very new. My comparison is solely off of these two videos as I have not been able to go in person yet. If you have more resources for how I can tour ISU online, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for helping dwindle my cons list.

LMU video:

ISU video:

 

[genny]

Like I said, I could very well wrong with this too. I am more so comparing the fact about how LMU has the facilities with the TVs and microphones set up in the labs/large animal facilities and how their equipment looks very new. My comparison is solely off of these two videos as I have not been able to go in person yet. If you have more resources for how I can tour ISU online, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for helping dwindle my cons list.

So ISU's veterinary school is in the same building as the small and large animal hospitals - they're all connected with hallways on the lower level. Large animal rounds are held in the large animal hospital, and you can attend those as a first year and hear about cases that are actually in the hospital right now. The clinical skills lab is also located in the same building as the class rooms so students can easily access it. If you're into clin path, ISU's veterinary diagnostic lab used to be in the same building, but they just built a HUGE brand new building across the parking lot from their old facilities, so easily within walking distance. So students spend a lot of time in one building, for four years. Definitely visit in person if you can! I thought I would find the lack of windows in the classrooms depressing, but it didn't really bother me - if I was in a classroom, I needed to focus on class. Lectures are all recorded too, so you can watch online if you get sick or just need a day of sunshine.

LMU is going to have newer classroom equipment because they just built those classrooms in Harrogate, Tennessee. The clinical skills center is in Ewing, Virginia, a 20-minute drive away. There is no teaching hospital. I'm sure you can also get a great education there as well, it's just going to be a very different experience from ISU.

 

[DVMdreamn]

Hi! I am currently trying to decide between attending Iowa State or Lincoln Memorial. I am currently accepted to LMU for Spring 2025 (deferred my acceptance for spring 2024) and waitlisted to ISU. I am currently trying to make a decision as if I was accepted at ISU, so i am prepared to make a decision if it comes to that.

Background:
I am from Northern Illinois (have never lived elsewhere)
Current interests: Small animal and exotics, though I am also really interested in Mixed Animal Medicine as I would like to be able to help anyone that comes my way (in an ideal world)
I started college at a local community college then transferred to a small private liberal arts college.

Iowa State:
Pros:
Closer to home
Some things to do in the area
Can do mixed animal medicine
This is the CVM the doctor I work for attended
First vet school in us (which i think is cool, but i just like history)

Cons:
From what I understand, exotic experience would be mostly from clubs
Failing policy
Feels a little older with equipment from an outside perspective (i could very well be wrong)
From other students, i’ve been told courses are very rigorous
I have also been told that there is not a lot of support from the staff/professors?

(I am set to attend ISU next weekend for a preview day so I will have more of a perspective then)

Lincoln Memorial:
Pros:
In the middle of “no where” - less distractions
In my interview, professors seemed really kind and nice!
Online tours make the school appear high tech and helpful to learn
From an outside perspective, seems like the college gives more small university vibes
Can do mixed animal or small, unsure about exotics

Cons:
In the middle of “no where” - less ability to get away from school when needed
Far from home
Some of the tech (like the microphones in the lab) makes it feel like it would be harder to make more personable relationships with the profs
No teaching hospital!

(I am currently not scheduled to tour the college but would like to set something up)

What more do I need to research and consider? What are your opinions?

You are going to get a solid education at any accredited college, so go where professors and staff want to mentor you and help you become the best vet you can be. It will make a world of difference in your well-being over the 4 years.

ISU is the oldest veterinary school in the USA that is still in operation. PA (I think) had the 1st vet college in the US, but it no longer exists. One would think that a well-established college would have a well-developed program. Unfortunately, it's a bit disorganized, there is little support if you're struggling academically or personally, some professors couldn't care less about your education, and they lack online study tools that other schools offer, ie, anatomy, diagnostics, radiology. It's also sad that one of the anatomy professors is actively working to prevent an online anatomy tool from being developed by ISU because he thinks it would make students lazy. He uses a coloring book for a lab dissection guide instead. Students deserve more than that for the amount of tuition they are paying these days.

Each year ISU loses 10-15 VM1 students, most due to failing histology/physiology or anatomy. All of the students accepted to the program are smart and hard-working, but those that maybe struggle to adjust to living in Iowa, or are slow to create their own support network at the college, or have personal stuff come up in their first year usually don't make it to second year. Your only real support will be other students, if you're lucky to find a good group of people. This is particularly difficult for non-traditional students and minorities.

Another thing to consider, should you stumble in your first year, is that most programs will let you retake one failed course and all you need to do is pass. ISU has a cumbersome process that requires you to retake an undergrad course in the subject that you failed before you can retake the CVM course. For example, if you fail physiology, you will have to spend the next year taking an undergrad physiology course before retaking the ISU CVM course. In addition, when you retake the courses, you have to earn a B grade or higher. If you get a B- you will be permanently dismissed from the program, and they do not budge if you're even one point short.

Some other things to consider that aren't necessarily deal breakers, but took me by surprise:
- School issued laptops had multiple issues that never got resolved by IT. I often lost notes when PPT or OneNote would just randomly freeze and shut down. Some students just purchased another laptop or ipad for their notes. I heard they are going to start using Macs, but not sure about when.
- ISU CVM students told me that I should have gone elsewhere "if you want to be treated like a human being." I'm only stating this because I wish someone had told me that before I accepted the offer.
- Many professors are awesome and amazing people who want you to learn and succeed, but some professors who teach key courses will actively try to trip you up to make you fail. It's old school style teaching. I expected more than lazy teaching tactics for the amount of money I was paying.
- A few professors really need to retire or do something else. They are brilliant and wonderful human beings, but when you randomly freeze during a lecture or when a second professor has to sit in the lecture hall to help you stay on track then it's time to step down for the next generation of professors.
- ISU advertises that they have a counselor at the school for those tough days when you just need to talk to someone to get your head straight, but they haven't been able to keep one for the last 4 years.
- If you plan to work to support yourself a little while in school, wages are low in Iowa.
- And it's worth mentioning that winters are brutal - expect temps of -40F in Jan and Feb. Yes, that's a negative sign. The high winds in Iowa cause temperatures to drop well below the recorded temperatures.

There are also many pros to the school, but those are easy to find on their website.

I was looking to be inspired, mentored, and presented with opportunities that would help me become the best mixed animal vet I could be. I expected the program to be rigorous. I expected the program to be physically and mentally challenging. I was disappointed that even my assigned academic advisor didn't know my name and was too busy with his research to reply to an email. That was just my experience.

 

[JaynaAli]

You are going to get a solid education at any accredited college, so go where professors and staff want to mentor you and help you become the best vet you can be. It will make a world of difference in your well-being over the 4 years.

Are you the ‘old’ DVMDream who’s been around forever with a new account or are you someone else? Just curious. Some things made me think you were the old DVMD but others did not, lol.

 

[battie]

I'll add that while @DVMdreamn 's experience is valid as to what they personally have gone through, there are also students who have had an amazing time as well. This is true of every single vet school, so trying to get a mix of reviews is important. I know of several people who hated their experience at Illinois and didn't feel the school cared about them; I had a great experience and amazing support through multiple horrible life events. So try to go over to the Iowa thread to assess where you think you'd get the most bang for your buck.

 

[vipenguin]

You are going to get a solid education at any accredited college, so go where professors and staff want to mentor you and help you become the best vet you can be. It will make a world of difference in your well-being over the 4 years.

ISU is the oldest veterinary school in the USA that is still in operation. PA (I think) had the 1st vet college in the US, but it no longer exists. One would think that a well-established college would have a well-developed program. Unfortunately, it's a bit disorganized, there is little support if you're struggling academically or personally, some professors couldn't care less about your education, and they lack online study tools that other schools offer, ie, anatomy, diagnostics, radiology. It's also sad that one of the anatomy professors is actively working to prevent an online anatomy tool from being developed by ISU because he thinks it would make students lazy. He uses a coloring book for a lab dissection guide instead. Students deserve more than that for the amount of tuition they are paying these days.

Each year ISU loses 10-15 VM1 students, most due to failing histology/physiology or anatomy. All of the students accepted to the program are smart and hard-working, but those that maybe struggle to adjust to living in Iowa, or are slow to create their own support network at the college, or have personal stuff come up in their first year usually don't make it to second year. Your only real support will be other students, if you're lucky to find a good group of people. This is particularly difficult for non-traditional students and minorities.

Another thing to consider, should you stumble in your first year, is that most programs will let you retake one failed course and all you need to do is pass. ISU has a cumbersome process that requires you to retake an undergrad course in the subject that you failed before you can retake the CVM course. For example, if you fail physiology, you will have to spend the next year taking an undergrad physiology course before retaking the ISU CVM course. In addition, when you retake the courses, you have to earn a B grade or higher. If you get a B- you will be permanently dismissed from the program, and they do not budge if you're even one point short.

Some other things to consider that aren't necessarily deal breakers, but took me by surprise:
- School issued laptops had multiple issues that never got resolved by IT. I often lost notes when PPT or OneNote would just randomly freeze and shut down. Some students just purchased another laptop or ipad for their notes. I heard they are going to start using Macs, but not sure about when.
- ISU CVM students told me that I should have gone elsewhere "if you want to be treated like a human being." I'm only stating this because I wish someone had told me that before I accepted the offer.
- Many professors are awesome and amazing people who want you to learn and succeed, but some professors who teach key courses will actively try to trip you up to make you fail. It's old school style teaching. I expected more than lazy teaching tactics for the amount of money I was paying.
- A few professors really need to retire or do something else. They are brilliant and wonderful human beings, but when you randomly freeze during a lecture or when a second professor has to sit in the lecture hall to help you stay on track then it's time to step down for the next generation of professors.
- ISU advertises that they have a counselor at the school for those tough days when you just need to talk to someone to get your head straight, but they haven't been able to keep one for the last 4 years.
- If you plan to work to support yourself a little while in school, wages are low in Iowa.
- And it's worth mentioning that winters are brutal - expect temps of -40F in Jan and Feb. Yes, that's a negative sign. The high winds in Iowa cause temperatures to drop well below the recorded temperatures.

There are also many pros to the school, but those are easy to find on their website.

I was looking to be inspired, mentored, and presented with opportunities that would help me become the best mixed animal vet I could be. I expected the program to be rigorous. I expected the program to be physically and mentally challenging. I was disappointed that even my assigned academic advisor didn't know my name and was too busy with his research to reply to an email. That was just my experience.

I'm not sure where this person is getting some of their information on ISU from. Current VM student, and the claim that 10-15 first-year students fail out every year is an exaggeration. I was told that the current VM1 class lost only 4 out of ~140 students due to academic dismissal. I also have no idea where the idea that one of the anatomy professors uses a coloring book as a lab manual came from, as that's blatantly untrue.

The winters are hit-or-miss if you're used to warmer temps but realistically, it only gets down to -40F with wind chill for one or two days every year, and the university almost always cancels in-person classes if it gets that bad. I've lived in Illinois and the winters there are typically worse than they get in Ames.

I've had nothing but positive experiences with the counselors and advisors here. Of course, everyone's experience and opinions are completely valid, and what works for me may not work for you. Just be aware that there are resources here to help. Doesn't mean it won't be hard, but wherever you end up going, don't be afraid to reach out.

Wages here may be low, but so is the cost of living. Money is probably going to be an issue for most vet students wherever you end up going, and personally I think there are worse places than Ames on this front. My advice here is to go to the school with the lowest cost, unless there's something specific about a school that you think will benefit you like wanting/needing to stay close to home or having an interest in a particular specialty.

I will say that the point about the school-issued laptops being iffy is true. If you end up going to ISU, be diligent about backing up your notes, preferably to an external hard drive or another computer, every week or so. If you do have issues the school will give you a loaner laptop while they fix yours, but that doesn't really help when you're 3 months into the semester and suddenly lose all of your files. I prefer taking notes on my iPad or personal computer and just using the school-issued one for exams.

These are just my personal thoughts. Ultimately, there are over 600 vet students here and so there are over 600 personal experiences, and every one of those is valid. I'm just trying to provide another perspective. I'll be graduating next year and have zero regrets about choosing ISU.

 

[studentdogtorm]

I'm not sure where this person is getting some of their information on ISU from. Current VM student, and the claim that 10-15 first-year students fail out every year is an exaggeration. I was told that the current VM1 class lost only 4 out of ~140 students due to academic dismissal. I also have no idea where the idea that one of the anatomy professors uses a coloring book as a lab manual came from, as that's blatantly untrue.

The winters are hit-or-miss if you're used to warmer temps but realistically, it only gets down to -40F with wind chill for one or two days every year, and the university almost always cancels in-person classes if it gets that bad. I've lived in Illinois and the winters there are typically worse than they get in Ames.

I've had nothing but positive experiences with the counselors and advisors here. Of course, everyone's experience and opinions are completely valid, and what works for me may not work for you. Just be aware that there are resources here to help. Doesn't mean it won't be hard, but wherever you end up going, don't be afraid to reach out.

Wages here may be low, but so is the cost of living. Money is probably going to be an issue for most vet students wherever you end up going, and personally I think there are worse places than Ames on this front. My advice here is to go to the school with the lowest cost, unless there's something specific about a school that you think will benefit you like wanting/needing to stay close to home or having an interest in a particular specialty.

I will say that the point about the school-issued laptops being iffy is true. If you end up going to ISU, be diligent about backing up your notes, preferably to an external hard drive or another computer, every week or so. If you do have issues the school will give you a loaner laptop while they fix yours, but that doesn't really help when you're 3 months into the semester and suddenly lose all of your files. I prefer taking notes on my iPad or personal computer and just using the school-issued one for exams.

These are just my personal thoughts. Ultimately, there are over 600 vet students here and so there are over 600 personal experiences, and every one of those is valid. I'm just trying to provide another perspective. I'll be graduating next year and have zero regrets about choosing ISU.

Thank you for your input! I visited at one of the preview days this weekend, and it does seem like this is a similar opinion to those students that I had talked to during the preview day. At this point I am still waitlisted, but I can absolutely see myself attending ISU. The professors also all seemed very kind and it seemed like everyone is kind of a big family.

 

[Chqu22]

Current VM1 at ISU and I absolutely love it here! I have found the professors to be incredibly supportive. After I did not do as well as I wanted to on my first exam, I met with the professor and got some great insight. I was able to completely turn around my grade for that class! The academic policy does sound harsh, but I personally have not had any problems with it so far. First semester is definitely a learning curve, but now in the spring semester I am doing even better! I commented on a more recent ISU thread in this forum so take a look at what I said there as well if you like.

If you have any questions let me know! If you are going to the preview day this weekend, I may be around and can show you around if you'd like

 

[studentdogtorm]

Current VM1 at ISU and I absolutely love it here! I have found the professors to be incredibly supportive. After I did not do as well as I wanted to on my first exam, I met with the professor and got some great insight. I was able to completely turn around my grade for that class! The academic policy does sound harsh, but I personally have not had any problems with it so far. First semester is definitely a learning curve, but now in the spring semester I am doing even better! I commented on a more recent ISU thread in this forum so take a look at what I said there as well if you like.

If you have any questions let me know! If you are going to the preview day this weekend, I may be around and can show you around if you'd like

i actually went to the first preview day! however, you would be willing to connect on social media? I would love to ask some more questions and talk more!

 

[Chqu22]

i actually went to the first preview day! however, you would be willing to connect on social media? I would love to ask some more questions and talk more!

Yes of course! I will message you my social media info!

 

[dancingvet_loading]

Current LMU 2nd year here. Personally your pros and cons list show that LMU would be a better choice as the cons for LMU is small issues that wouldn’t hinder your education in any way. Reason why I didn’t choose ISU was due to the failing policy. At LMU, they give you multiple opportunities if you are failing and faculty work really hard with you to get your back up. I hate that LMU gets crapped on about not having a teaching hospital but the distributive model is a great way to network with clinics, get hands on experience, and have a job offers right off the bat. LMU works with about 1000 clinics in the US and have standards for each of them. If you live close to a major city, you will most likely have hubs for clinical year where you can still live at home and do your clinical year close to home. I’m from Maryland and plan to have the majority of my clinical year there because there are many clinics affiliated with LMU. They only take 1 to 2 students per clinic so you have plenty of one on one time with clinicians. The school it self is great and the faculty really believe in each students success. Yes, we are in the middle of no where but there is plenty to do and I take trips to Knoxville at least once a month if I want that time in a city. If you have questions about LMU, feel free to dm me.

 

[battie]

I hate that LMU gets crapped on about not having a teaching hospital

My only real gripe with it is that LMU costs the same as other schools without this resource. Very few teaching hospitals actually pay for themselves nation wide, so tuition is used to subsidize the hospital. With schools that don't have a teaching hospital, where is that money going that they don't need? Anecdotally, professors are paid similarly across all the schools according to professors I know via Facebook pages. So the money isn't necessarily going towards infrastructure or staff. If the schools were cheaper, then I'd complain less since no one has done a study comparing the outcomes from distributive vs traditional students (even though we now have 20+ years of data to do so).

To be fair, traditional students are just as likely to have job offers during clinical year, and have ever since the 2008 recession ended. I had 12 offers prior to being even halfway through and signed a contract by April. And I even had COVID clinics. So that doesn't elevate the distributive model over the traditional.

I was the externship coordinator for my previous hospital and had 1-2 students at a time the whole time I was there, the majority of which from distributive students. They were all competent. Likewise, we didn't hire a single one simply because none applied. We were a stepping stone for them to spend 2-4 weeks in the foothills of Denver for the fun stuff. 🤣