It's Halftime in Amercia...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
TheBlend, I can see that you're NOT a hater... however you can admit that he needs to do more about debt reduction. I think Obama is most like a great guy and I like how he pulled himself up out of a single mother poor family situation and went to some of the greatest schools that this country offers. However, he is not making a serious plan to get the US out form under our debt and entitlement reform.

What's worse is that he is making promises that the US cannot take care of. We need to be limiting the # of people on medicare by at least pushing up the age and set time limits on how long medicaid patients will stay on the system. Instead he's saying they'll expand entitlements... most likely by cutting how much they pay to people that do the actual work.

It's okay to admit that although you dont hate the guy you're not happy with him.

Your condescension is just so adorable, I wanna pinch your wittle cheeks.;)

Since I am a Democrat I stand with compassion and for providing a safety net for our most vulnerable citizens. I don;t stand with the folks on the right who yell "let him die" about a guy without insurance who gets critically injured.

You guys keep quoting things out of his new budget which is a politcal document with -0- chance of passing, just like EVERYTHING else Obama puts forward even if it was a republican idea just a few years ago.


Here's the way I see it:
We can;t pay down the debt in any real way until we get yearly spending(the deficit) under control right? Right.
The deficit for 2012 is 1.1 trillion. according to http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2012USbt_12bs1n_00#usgs302
We all know the big three costs to the Fed are Medicare, SS and the military. These come out to about 492B, 805B, and 925B respectively.

If we end the Bush tax cuts for the top 2-3% we get ~700B/ year. That leaves us 400B to get out of the big three to get back to even steven. Republicans negotiate on the tax cuts we can talk about the big three.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Your condescension is just so adorable, I wanna pinch your wittle cheeks.;)

Since I am a Democrat I stand with compassion and for providing a safety net for our most vulnerable citizens. I don;t stand with the folks on the right who yell "let him die" about a guy without insurance who gets critically injured.

Yeah, that's an accurate depiction of the debate. :rolleyes:

Here's the way I see it:
We can;t pay down the debt in any real way until we get yearly spending(the deficit) under control right? Right.
The deficit for 2012 is 1.1 trillion. according to http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2012USbt_12bs1n_00#usgs302
We all know the big three costs to the Fed are Medicare, SS and the military. These come out to about 492B, 805B, and 925B respectively.

If we end the Bush tax cuts for the top 2-3% we get ~700B/ year. That leaves us 400B to get out of the big three to get back to even steven. Republicans negotiate on the tax cuts we can talk about the big three.

For the record, most of us who are fixated on and disturbed by the debt and ongoing deficits weren't Bush supporters either.

Many of us were livid when Bush & pals created Medicare part D to the tune of $50 billion per year, or got deer-in-the-headlights then knee-jerk about terrorism and created the DHS. Many of us would absolutely support repealing the Bush tax cuts, preferably with additional tax reform in ALL brackets - remember, I'm the guy who paid an effective 2% federal tax rate on an $80K income the year Obama got elected. All the same, you simply have to admit and understand that there is a consistent historic cap to tax revenues as a % of GDP, and at some point soakin' the rich doesn't increase tax receipts.

The military pays my salary and I advocate large cuts and (essentially) withdrawal from Afghanistan sooner rather than later.


This isn't freeperville. Griping about Republicans playing partisan games and stammering "b-b-b-b-b-but Bush" isn't a valid line of reply, and neither are emotional platitudes about "standing with compassion" ...
 
Although I mostly vote Republican, I often do it holding my nose. This is the republican party that I want:


Looking at the Past Through the Lens of Economy
During the Eisenhower era, Americans achieved a level of prosperity they had never known before. While other parts of the world struggled to rebuild from the devastation of World War II, citizens of the United States saw their standard of living surpass what previous generations had only dreamed about.

Eisenhower himself deserves a good deal of credit for this economic growth. He found the right combination of low taxes, balanced budgets, and public spending that allowed the economy to hum along at a steady clip. He also benefitted from steady growth in spending on new homes and consumer goods as citizens turned away from older notions of thrift and began to buy on credit.

The Decade of Prosperity

The economy overall grew by 37% during the 1950s. At the end of the decade, the median American family had 30% more purchasing power than at the beginning. Inflation, which had wreaked havoc on the economy immediately after World War II, was minimal, in part because of Eisenhower's persistent efforts to balance the federal budget. Except for a mild recession in 1954 and a more serious one in 1958, unemployment remained low, bottoming at less than 4.5% in the middle of the decade.

Many factors came together to produce the Fifties boom. The G.I. Bill, which gave military veterans affordable access to a college education, added a productive pool of highly-educated employees to the work force at a time American businesses were willing to pay handsomely for engineering and management skills. Cheap oil from domestic wells helped keep the engines of industry running. Advances in science and technology spurred productivity. At the same time, potential competitors in Europe and Asia were still recovering from being bombed into smithereens during World War II.

Eisenhower's Middle Way

Eisenhower steered a balanced course economically. Some Republicans called for rolling back the New Deal, but the president realized that many of Franklin D. Roosevelt's libeal social programs were both popular and effective. Instead of getting rid of Social Security, for example, Ike actually expanded it to cover another ten million people who had been left out of the original program. Instead of turning away from big public works projects, he instead invested federal money in the Interstate Highway System, one of the largest public spending projects in the country's history.

The main economic goal that Eisenhower pursued through both his terms in office was to achieve a balanced federal budget. The government ran a small deficit in 1954 and 1955, then registered a surplus for each of the next two years. As the nation went into a recession in 1958 and 1959, Eisenhower allowed the federal deficit to grow in order to stimulate the economy. By 1960, he managed to return to a surplus.

To achieve a balanced federal budget was a balancing act in itself. Democrats were clamoring for increases in defense spending in order to counter the Soviet threat. Congressional representatives from both parties pushed for tax cuts. Eisenhower used his credentials as an experienced military leader to reassure the nation that the defense budget did not need to be increased as much as some wanted. Though he favored low taxes himself, he dug in his heels and fought tax cuts whenever they threatened to plunge the government into debt
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Although I mostly vote Republican, I often do it holding my nose. This is the republican party that I want:

Republicans ain't what they used to be, that's for sure.

Can you imagine any modern Republican (beyond Ron Paul) speaking a single ill word about the military industrial complex?
 
For the record, most of us who are fixated on and disturbed by the debt and ongoing deficits weren't Bush supporters either.

But yet you think Romney is the guy who's going to get serious about the debt? Take a look at his tax plan (it's gonna add 3 trillion to the deficit). Look at the plethora of regressive fees he raised in Mass. while claiming he was lowering taxes. Look at his plan for increasing military hardware funding for a country that already spends more than the next 17 countries combined. I'm not really a fan of Obama, but I definitely can't imagine voting for a guy who's against raising the absurd 106k payroll tax cap.

Romney will be Bush x 10. Tax cuts disproportionately favoring the top brackets with no way to pay for them.

Although I mostly vote Republican, I often do it holding my nose. This is the republican party that I want:

If Dwight '91% top marginal tax rate' Eisenhower (or Reagan) were running in today's political climate they would be accused of being RINOs and subsequently be ousted from the Republican party in a heartbeat.
 
Last edited:
But yet you think Romney is the guy who's going to get serious about the debt? Take a look at his tax plan (it's gonna add 3 trillion to the deficit). Look at the plethora of regressive fees he raised in Mass. while claiming he was lowering taxes. Look at his plan for increasing military hardware funding for a country that already spends more than the next 17 countries combined. I'm not really a fan of Obama, but I definitely can't imagine voting for a guy who's against raising the absurd 106k payroll tax cap.

Romney will be Bush x 10. Tax cuts disproportionately favoring the top brackets with no way to pay for them.



If Dwight '91% top marginal tax rate' Eisenhower (or Reagan) were running in today's political climate they would be accused of being RINOs and subsequently be ousted from the Republican party in a heartbeat.

The "bean counting, sensible, fiscal discipline", Republicans are just about gone. That is why I have to hold my nose to vote for the current crop. I just find them less offensive than the current crop of the democratic party. I am sure that Eisenhower and Truman would both be equally disgusted by the current crop of Republicans and Democrats.
 
But yet you think Romney is the guy who's going to get serious about the debt?

Where'd I say that?

I'll vote for Romney over Obama mostly because I don't want any more Kagans and Sotomayors on the court. I've resigned myself to continued fiscal irresponsbility until economic and currency forces too painful to ignore spur actual change. Neither the Republican nor Democratic parties will make any progress in this area.

Ron Paul might, but at this time he's just a bit too far out there on some other subjects to possibly win the election.


All you have to do is look at the 2008 Palin phenomenon and how well Santorum is presently doing to see right to the rotten core of the Republican party. It's become a party of ultra-hawkish moral busybodies, prudes, and right wing religious near-extremists that think those issues should take top priority in an era where economic and energy problems are mounting and threatening to permanently degrade the American standard of living.


If Dwight '91% top marginal tax rate' Eisenhower (or Reagan) were running in today's political climate they would be accused of being RINOs and subsequently be ousted from the Republican party in a heartbeat.

Yeah, that's exactly what would happen, and that's part of the problem.


HOWEVER, before you go throwing around 91% figures, you should acknowledge that those top brackets started at FAR higher incomes than today's top bracket. Eisenhower's 91% top bracket began at $200,000 in 1954. If you go back a couple decades prior to then, the top bracket started at $5,000,000 in 1930s dollars.

We're not just talking about upper middle class professionals, or successful small business owners - these were tax rates on the ultra rich of the day. It is so incomparable to the people in today's top bracket that it would be comical, if it wasn't so transparently and cynically manipulative.

Reagan's tax cuts made some sense; in his era the top brackets started much lower. In 1981 it was 70% of income over $212,000; in 1982 it was 50% of income over $106,000. These were high tax rates on the middle class, not the ultra rich.


If you want to "go back" to the way things used to be, with top marginal tax rates above 80%, then be completely honest and admit those rates wouldn't kick in until a person has between $2-80 million in earned 2012 income.

It's incredibly deceptive for the Democratic party to start tossing around the word "rich" when today's top brackets start around $200,000 (33%) and $400,000 (35%).
 
Where'd I say that?

I'll vote for Romney over Obama mostly because I don't want any more Kagans and Sotomayors on the court. I've resigned myself to continued fiscal irresponsbility until economic and currency forces too painful to ignore spur actual change. Neither the Republican nor Democratic parties will make any progress in this area.

Ron Paul might, but at this time he's just a bit too far out there on some other subjects to possibly win the election.

All you have to do is look at the 2008 Palin phenomenon and how well Santorum is presently doing to see right to the rotten core of the Republican party. It's become a party of ultra-hawkish moral busybodies, prudes, and right wing religious near-extremists that think those issues should take top priority in an era where economic and energy problems are mounting and threatening to permanently degrade the American standard of living.

Ah, OK- at least we're on the same page re: both parties being pretty terrible on the debt except the craziness that is Ron Paul. But let's not forget that Obama and Boehner had reached a $4 trillion deal...and Boehner pulled out cause he had to cave to the crazies in his caucus

No more Sotomayors or Kagans on the court? Does that mean you're for decisions like Citizens United that allow billionaires to throw unlimited money at elections since corporations are apparently people? You're for a conservative court that will weaken Roe v. Wade? What kind of cases do you think a more liberal court is going to hear?

Yeah, that's exactly what would happen, and that's part of the problem.


HOWEVER, before you go throwing around 91% figures, you should acknowledge that those top brackets started at FAR higher incomes than today's top bracket. Eisenhower's 91% top bracket began at $200,000 in 1954. If you go back a couple decades prior to then, the top bracket started at $5,000,000 in 1930s dollars.

We're not just talking about upper middle class professionals, or successful small business owners - these were tax rates on the ultra rich of the day. It is so incomparable to the people in today's top bracket that it would be comical, if it wasn't so transparently and cynically manipulative.

Reagan's tax cuts made some sense; in his era the top brackets started much lower. In 1981 it was 70% of income over $212,000; in 1982 it was 50% of income over $106,000. These were high tax rates on the middle class, not the ultra rich.


If you want to "go back" to the way things used to be, with top marginal tax rates above 80%, then be completely honest and admit those rates wouldn't kick in until a person has between $2-80 million in earned 2012 income.

It's incredibly deceptive for the Democratic party to start tossing around the word "rich" when today's top brackets start around $200,000 (33%) and $400,000 (35%).

I think the brackets for under $500k need to stay approximately where they are in the 35 to 39% range (since these people are rich by middle-class standards, not lottery standards), and that we need exactly the same sort of top brackets that existed pre-70s on multi-multi millionaires who derive most of their income from cap gains.

As for Reagan, indeed he reduced rates in 1981, but unlike Bush 43 he realized that he was about to run up some massive deficits and started closing loopholes which resulted in higher gross revenue from the top brackets. He lowered rates again in 1986 but Bush 41 had the sense to raise taxes in 1990 rather than worsen the deficit. What do you think are the prospects for deficit lowering, revenue generating legislation passing in today's GOP congress?



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-16/why-reagan-raised-taxes-and-we-should-too-echoes.html

On a foggy morning 30 years ago at his Santa Barbara ranch, Ronald Reagan signed the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981. Talking with reporters afterward, the president reveled in his legislative victory.

The law, he said, represented "a turnaround of almost a half a century of a course this country has been on and marks an end to the excessive growth in government bureaucracy and government spending and government taxing."

With the stroke of a pen, Reagan had reduced individual tax rates by 23 percent, slashed the top marginal rate from 70 percent to 50 percent, and dramatically accelerated the pace at which corporations could write off new investments. Altogether, Reagan gave taxpayers about $143 billion in tax relief over each of the next four years.

And then -- just two months later -- he asked for about a third of it back.

How did Reagan the tax cutter become Reagan the tax raiser? And how did it happen so quickly?

Reagan came to the White House with a firebrand's commitment to lower taxes. Even when his key advisers began stressing the need for new revenue, Reagan resisted. "Almost everyone in the White House joined in the work of tax raising," recalled David Stockman, director of the Office of Management and Budget at the start of Reagan's presidency, "except for the guys who wore the Adam Smith ties and, unfortunately, the guy who had to sign the tax bills."

In particular, Reagan scorned calls for raising revenue by closing loopholes. "The truth is most of what our politicians call loopholes are the legit. deductions the working people depend on to keep their inc. tax from being more intolerable than it is," he wrote in 1975.
But in the face of large and growing deficits, Reagan eventually did come around on the need for additional revenue. Even before the 1981 tax cut was on the books, many White House advisers had begun to worry about projected deficits, which were on a steady upward march from 2.6 percent of gross domestic product in 1981 to 4 percent in 1982. They would reach 6 percent in 1983.

So, just weeks after his Santa Barbara signing ceremony, Reagan floated the possibility of -- wait for it -- closing loopholes. He was careful to avoid any suggestion that he wanted a tax increase. Instead, he and his advisers asked Congress for "revenue enhancements."
Euphemisms can obscure a variety of sins. And Reagan's euphemist, Larry Kudlow -- then an official in the Office of Management and Budget -- was unrepentant. "There's no better way to sell economic theory than by the euphemistic route," he told the New York Times.
This allowed for a major tax increase, the largest in four decades, in 1982. The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act raised an average of $47 billion in each of the four years after it was enacted.

Over the remainder of his presidency, Reagan would go on to sign a series of such increases, ultimately taking back about half of his 1981 tax cut, according to economist and historian Bruce Bartlett. The 1981 legislation marked a watershed in federal taxation, capping an era of tax cuts and starting a new one of increases. As economist Jerry Tempalski has noted, of the nine major tax laws enacted from 1968 to 1981, six reduced federal revenue. By contrast, nine of the 11 major tax laws introduced from 1982 to 1993 increased revenue.

The dramatic reduction in federal revenue resulting from the 1981 act made future cuts increasingly difficult. And one of its provisions would prove especially expensive in the years to come. The law had indexed tax brackets, adjusting them for inflation. This change almost eliminated "bracket creep," in which taxpayers were pushed into higher brackets by inflation, rather than changes in real income. For decades, bracket creep had produced steady -- but hidden -- tax increases on Americans. No longer would these automatic tax hikes give lawmakers money to burn. Or to return through tax cuts. Indexing was key to ending what C. Eugene Steuerle, an economist and senior fellow at the Urban Institute in Washington, has called the "era of easy finance."

But if the Economic Recovery Tax Act put the nation in a fiscal straitjacket, it also prompted newfound interest in tax reform. Reagan's late conversion to loophole-closing in 1982 would prove a model for future tax increases.

Rates did creep upward in the years that followed, especially during Bill Clinton's presidency. But closing loopholes -- or reducing tax expenditure, as the wonks like to say -- has become a rich source of new revenue.

Thank goodness for small miracles. Removing special favors from the tax code is a win-win, both for revenue-starved lawmakers and for average taxpayers. Sure, many tax-expenditure plans are essentially middle-class spending programs, subsidizing everything from home ownership to health care.

But subsidizing things through the tax system -- which President Barack Obama infamously but accurately described as "spending in the tax code" -- is inefficient and unfair. It often delivers benefits to the wrong people, rewarding the rich more than the poor.

And it prompts lawmakers to overspend. Largely shielded from the sort of scrutiny that accompanies direct spending, tax expenditure builds big government on the sly. That's why conservatives should oppose it.

Reagan, to his credit, learned that lesson quickly. Unfortunately, his conservative descendants seem to have forgotten it.

(Joseph J. Thorndike, a contributor to the Echoes blog, is the director of the Tax History Project at Tax Analysts and a visiting scholar in history at the University of Virginia. The opinions expressed are his own.)

To contact the author of this blog post: Joseph J. Thorndike at [email protected].
To contact the editor responsible for this blog post: Timothy Lavin at [email protected].
 
TheBlend, it was not my intention to be condescending. I was merely giving you a way out of being a idealogically pure fanboy (okay that was condescending lol).

This has nothing to do with synpathy and everything to do with avoiding financial catastrophe. If you want more information start watching Morning Joe on MSNBC. He's pretty much the best place to get any information today. He'll break down the larger problems for you in a way that will seem palatable to your political leanings yet challenge your assumptions.

TheBlend Chart Notes:

DX: Stage III OFB (Obama Fan Boy)

RX: Morning Joe q.d.
 
No more Sotomayors or Kagans on the court? Does that mean you're for decisions like Citizens United that allow billionaires to throw unlimited money at elections since corporations are apparently people? You're for a conservative court that will weaken Roe v. Wade? What kind of cases do you think a more liberal court is going to hear?

The last civil rights case the court heard was Heller (followed by McDonald) and the vote was 5-4.

I disagree with corporations = people, but I care more about civil rights.


I think the brackets for under $500k need to stay approximately where they are in the 35 to 39% range (since these people are rich by middle-class standards, not lottery standards), and that we need exactly the same sort of top brackets that existed pre-70s on multi-multi millionaires who derive most of their income from cap gains.

OK.

I mostly agree with that, and could live with it IF there was a credible plan for spending reductions to accompany it.


As for Reagan, indeed he reduced rates in 1981, but unlike Bush 43 he realized that he was about to run up some massive deficits and started closing loopholes which resulted in higher gross revenue from the top brackets. He lowered rates again in 1986 but Bush 41 had the sense to raise taxes in 1990 rather than worsen the deficit. What do you think are the prospects for deficit lowering, revenue generating legislation passing in today's GOP congress?

About the same as with a Dem controlled Congress. Which is to say, zero.
 
TheBlend, it was not my intention to be condescending. I was merely giving you a way out of being a idealogically pure fanboy (okay that was condescending lol).

This has nothing to do with synpathy and everything to do with avoiding financial catastrophe. If you want more information start watching Morning Joe on MSNBC. He's pretty much the best place to get any information today. He'll break down the larger problems for you in a way that will seem palatable to your political leanings yet challenge your assumptions.

TheBlend Chart Notes:

DX: Stage III OFB (Obama Fan Boy)

RX: Morning Joe q.d.

1. You are just too willing to adopt politically designed talking points that contain distortions, cherry picking, and semantic tricks.
2. I am a left leaning moderate on most issues, but quite conservative on others. I will vote Obama, but my motivation is to call out bad information not blindly follow as a fanboy. If you look at my first posts in this thread all the way to my last one, it is showing that the main talking point of the right, " thing's are worse now than before Obama" just flat out isn't true unless you base it on emotion and nothing more.
3. Joe is a douche, his sponsor "starbucks" is the epitomy of what I hate about greed and corporations ****ting on hardworking, family-owned local businesses.
4. I know your DX/RX is a joke, but the funnier part is your framing it such a way as a prehealth student who doesn't know what their talking about to begin with. 90 sec google searches an expert does not make.
 
Yeah, that's an accurate depiction of the debate. :rolleyes:



For the record, most of us who are fixated on and disturbed by the debt and ongoing deficits weren't Bush supporters either.

Many of us were livid when Bush & pals created Medicare part D to the tune of $50 billion per year, or got deer-in-the-headlights then knee-jerk about terrorism and created the DHS. Many of us would absolutely support repealing the Bush tax cuts, preferably with additional tax reform in ALL brackets - remember, I'm the guy who paid an effective 2% federal tax rate on an $80K income the year Obama got elected. All the same, you simply have to admit and understand that there is a consistent historic cap to tax revenues as a % of GDP, and at some point soakin' the rich doesn't increase tax receipts.

The military pays my salary and I advocate large cuts and (essentially) withdrawal from Afghanistan sooner rather than later.


This isn't freeperville. Griping about Republicans playing partisan games and stammering "b-b-b-b-b-but Bush" isn't a valid line of reply, and neither are emotional platitudes about "standing with compassion" ...

I don;t think you have any reason to lie about being in the military. I am not, never have been. I do though have an uncle who retired from the navy after 24 years and several of my clostest friends are Iraq/Afgan vets. I think military cuts are necessary and ending the conflict in Afganistan too. I don't jump on borad with the notion that since just because we are larger than the next however many militaries in the world and most of which are aliies that we can scale down drastically. I like an abscenely dominant military even if just for the detterent factor. I think a certain, even many reductions, will not affect this image, but id rather pay higher taxes then go too far cutting defense.

The big thing too many people don't realize is that the next 20 years will be nothing like the last. Basic math tells us that even at our seeminlgy tiny current population growth ove about 0.5%/year the natural logorithmic doubling time is ~140 years. almost 10 billion people by mid century. Combine this with exponentially growning oil consumption 9 and the fact that with india and china growing the way they are oil is on its way out, and serious food shoratges are looming and serious conflict is inevitable. Our monetary system and debt/deficit are not the pressing issues people are making them. Important? yes. Urgent? not so much.

My bush bashing is not just for the fun (though it sure is:)) it is to fairly alloccate blame and debt by the numbers. There are plenty of things I disagree with Obama and the democrats about, but I try to focus on the objective facts regardelss of how they make me feel, It seems that Yappy, wants to focus more on ideological differences and much less on facts an statistics, If Yappy wants to talk philosophy of political Ideolgy instead then fine, thus the emotional platitudes as to transition to such a conversation.
 
The last civil rights case the court heard was Heller (followed by McDonald) and the vote was 5-4.

I disagree with corporations = people, but I care more about civil rights.

The democrats know gun control is a non-issue nowadays (Gabby Giffords....the Ohio school shooting....but yet no new legislation). I think voting based on Heller and McDonald as opposed to Citizens United is dumb if we're looking at the big picture wrt to our democracy. I say this as an owner of a Bushmaster M4, SAR-1, and a couple handguns.

OK.

I mostly agree with that, and could live with it IF there was a credible plan for spending reductions to accompany it.




About the same as with a Dem controlled Congress. Which is to say, zero.

Um...as far as I know, it's only been the GOP who's been extremely recalcitrant on raising revenue even if doing so would reduce the deficit. How many democrats have signed Emperor Norquist's goddamned idiotic tax pledge?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The big thing too many people don't realize is that the next 20 years will be nothing like the last. Basic math tells us that even at our seeminlgy tiny current population growth ove about 0.5%/year the natural logorithmic doubling time is ~140 years. almost 10 billion people by mid century. Combine this with exponentially growning oil consumption 9 and the fact that with india and china growing the way they are oil is on its way out, and serious food shoratges are looming and serious conflict is inevitable.

I agree with much of this; you'll find a number of posts from me on this forum with words eerily similar to what you just wrote.

I'm less concerned about population (particularly in the US) as 1st world countries really aren't increasing their populations. It's debt and being an energy slave to oil that are threats to our standard of living.


Our monetary system and debt/deficit are not the pressing issues people are making them. Important? yes. Urgent? not so much.

Urgent is a relative term. It's awfully considerate of Europe to debase the Euro now to make the dollar look like a nice place to park money at 0% (or less). It won't get easier to fix in a decade when the debt is $25 trillion.

The simple mathematical truth is that there is no end game to repay our existing debt without assuming continued, consistent, neverending 3%+ annual GDP growth. As you clearly understand above, oil and energy are a problem. Oil is $120/barrel now, when US consumption is down almost 1/3 from its peak, pre-recession.

Outright default is pretty unlikely, but deliberate inflation via nearly-endless QE is a near certainty. And inflation is the ultimate regressive tax, which ought to have every compassion-standing Democrat outraged and upset - but they're not, because deficit spending and QE and "stimulation" makes life easier today and postpones the inevitable.

But I guess putting off the problems for later always leaves room for someone to come up with a miracle.

If you look at my first posts in this thread all the way to my last one, it is showing that the main talking point of the right, " thing's are worse now than before Obama" just flat out isn't true unless you base it on emotion and nothing more.

I disagree with that. By any objective measure, the debt and deficit are worse. It's not all Obama's fault, but if you're looking at the stock market flirting with 13000, or the (essentially falsified) GDP numbers from last quarter, you're being misled.
 
I agree with much of this; you'll find a number of posts from me on this forum with words eerily similar to what you just wrote.

I'm less concerned about population (particularly in the US) as 1st world countries really aren't increasing their populations. It's debt and being an energy slave to oil that are threats to our standard of living.




Urgent is a relative term. It's awfully considerate of Europe to debase the Euro now to make the dollar look like a nice place to park money at 0% (or less). It won't get easier to fix in a decade when the debt is $25 trillion.

The simple mathematical truth is that there is no end game to repay our existing debt without assuming continued, consistent, neverending 3%+ annual GDP growth. As you clearly understand above, oil and energy are a problem. Oil is $120/barrel now, when US consumption is down almost 1/3 from its peak, pre-recession.

Outright default is pretty unlikely, but deliberate inflation via nearly-endless QE is a near certainty. And inflation is the ultimate regressive tax, which ought to have every compassion-standing Democrat outraged and upset - but they're not, because deficit spending and QE and "stimulation" makes life easier today and postpones the inevitable.

But I guess putting off the problems for later always leaves room for someone to come up with a miracle.



I disagree with that. By any objective measure, the debt and deficit are worse. It's not all Obama's fault, but if you're looking at the stock market flirting with 13000, or the (essentially falsified) GDP numbers from last quarter, you're being misled.

See, we agree on so much. Maybe I'm just too cynical to be as concerned with the debt. Our entire economy is based on 2 things: infinite growth and cheap oil. We are seeing the effects of infinite growth on a finite planet. Entropy applies to abtract concepts like society and money too.The real issue on hand is people living so dramatically beyond their means, Life is simple, eat, crap sleep.

People have been trained since birth to consume as much as possible and buy, buy, buy. Ya know....or the terrorists win. We are on the downside of the bell curve of cheap fossil fuels and everybody knows it. We have to get past the denial, that polluting as much as we please, and digging every last damn thing of value out of the earth is sustainable.

If we (democrats) try to get people to live within their means and to find an equilibrium with the enviroment we are called Nazi communist, environmentalists set on destroying the economy with regulation. People think its their right to pave over as much of nature as possible and have coast to coast strip malls, or as they call it manifest destiny. FFS, I've had heated arguments with die-hard righties that think that putting nutrition information on drive thru menus is a direct violation of their freedom. It is their RIGHT to eat 6 triple whoppers a day and not be able to fit into the MRI machine and give their kids type-2 by 10 years old from 300 oz of mountain dew/day from 3 yearsold. It's what the founding fathers wanted.

It is these same people who drive 10 year old Tahoes @2 miles/gallon while they cry about gas prices. The problem is we Americans are so good at marketing, we got the rest of the world wanting to be just like us......and now the house of cards if just starting to slip. As you said, but should have stopped, "The simple mathematical truth is that there is no end game " the whole system is broken. Change comes with time, but it's time for a change. I'll admit Bush gets blamed for a lot beyond his control, but so does Obama. I don't think either one of them has bad intentions. The world is crazy, nobody knows what to do, we are all just kinda wingin' it now and hopin for the best.
/rant
 
It's not raining on my parade. You are just distorting the truth AGAIN! when it comes to the " 5 trillion dollars more in debt in the "Golden Obama Era." ", FACT: Bush is responsible for the Fiscal year 2009 Budget, which is the majoirty of spending that year.

I suggest you get a new calendar. The year now is 2012 and the deficits are continually well over a trillion dollars a year.

What's Obama's biggest contributing factor to the Debt?
FACT: Extending the Bush Tax cuts!

So you finally agree Obama is just a crappy Bush impersonator?

The best part is how Republican's will use these same indicators to accuse Obama of failing the country blah blah blah

The main reason, among many, why I dismiss anything you have to say is that you can't keep the discussion on Obama. Any assertation that Obama is terrible is followed by a reply of why Bush was terrible. You are like political attack ads; nothing positive about your guy, just negatives about someone else.
 
Last edited:
I suggest you get a new calendar. The year now is 2012 and the deficits are continually well over a trillion dollars a year with our pretend president.



So you finally agree Obama is just a crappy Bush impersonator? Took you long enough.



The main reason, among many, why I dismiss anything you have to say is that you can't keep the discussion on Obama. Any assertation that Obama sucks is followed by a reply of why Bush sucked. You are like political attack ads; nothing positive about your guy, just negatives about someone else. Have you seriously not figured out yet that they BOTH can possibly suck? And they both do. You are just a blind home team fanatic. It's pointless to listen to you.

ok I see you are one of thise people for whom I have to really break things down.
1. There are plenty of things you can criticize Obama about. What I assert you should NOT do is use outright distortions to do so. You keep using manipulive phrasing tricks to get a point across that just isn't true. Then edit out the parts of quoting me where I point that out. My calendar is fine, its your statistics that are not.
2. How is me pointing out the flaws I see in each parties most recent president being a fanatic? If you're expecting me to defend every thing Obama has ever said done or will do, you haven't been paying attention. I call it like I see it on both sides.
3. The main reason you dismiss anything I say is because you constantly violate logical fallacies or just wait until scarlet johanson posts bury my reply so you can just ignore it and move on when I systematically address the things you say. So, take some time and go read up on logical fallacies and hope that in the wait time bladeor someone Will bury this post as well.
 
Hope-and-Change-Reagan.jpg
 
"This isn't just the car we wanted to build," a narrator says in the commercial over footage of Volts being manufactured in Hamtramck, Mich. "This is the car America had to build."


chevrolet_volt_f34_ns_22912_717.jpg
 
The White House intends to boost government subsidies for wealthy buyers of the Chevy Volt and other new-technology vehicles — to $10,000 per buyer.
That mammoth subsidy would cost taxpayers $100 million each year if it is approved by Congress, presuming only 10,000 new-technology autos are sold each year.
But the administration wants to get 1 million new-tech autos on the road by 2015. The subsidy cost of that goal could reach $10 billion.
The planned giveaway will likely prompt populist protests from GOP legislators, but it will likely also will be welcomed by auto-industry workers in the critical swing state of Michigan.
That welcome is critical for President Barack Obama, who is touting his support for blue-collar manufacturing programs to help offset his low public approval ratings.
The new subsidy level represents a 33 percent jump from the current $7,500 government payout for each Volt buyer, even though the Volt's buyers are already among the wealthiest Americans. It will be offered to buyers of any new-technology autos, including battery-powered autos and cars powered by natural gas, said a White House official.
The extra money for wealthy buyers will be borrowed funds, eventually paid off by future taxpayers in all income brackets.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/13/obama-hikes-subsidy-to-wealthy-electric-car-buyers/#ixzz1o9kZR3sh
 
By Jonathan Welsh

OB-SB008_volt_E_20120303134931.jpg
Getty ImagesChevrolet Volt​
What happened to the strong demand for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that was supposed to turn cars like the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf into hot sellers? Weren't the waiting lists of would-be customers supposed to be long for both cars by now?
Well, neither is setting sales records and Chevrolet said yesterday it would temporarily halt production of the Volt because it simply has too many cars on hand and has been turning them out faster than it can find buyers.
So why aren't they selling? There are two answers: price and hassle.
The Volt starts at about $40,000, or twice as much as the company's high-mileage Cruze Eco compact sedan. When it comes to curbing consumption, people like to feel they are saving money while saving the earth. If green technology costs more, consumers want to "break even" on overall savings within a reasonable period. Even if you never used gasoline in the Volt, you'd wait about 12 years before you saved enough on gas to make up for the Volt's price premium.
 
What happened to the strong demand for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that was supposed to turn cars like the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf into hot sellers? Weren’t the waiting lists of would-be customers supposed to be long for both cars by now?
Well, neither is setting sales records and Chevrolet said yesterday it would temporarily halt production of the Volt because it simply has too many cars on hand and has been turning them out faster than it can find buyers.
So why aren’t they selling? There are two answers: price and hassle.
The Volt starts at about $40,000, or twice as much as the company’s high-mileage Cruze Eco compact sedan. When it comes to curbing consumption, people like to feel they are saving money while saving the earth. If green technology costs more, consumers want to “break even” on overall savings within a reasonable period. Even if you never used gasoline in the Volt, you’d wait about 12 years before you saved enough on gas to make up for the Volt’s price premium.

I think this is 99.99% of the problem right here. When you're making a big investment, most people are going to at least TRY to do the math, and right now it just doesn't add up.
 
The new subsidy level represents a 33 percent jump from the current $7,500 government payout for each Volt buyer, even though the Volt's buyers are already among the wealthiest Americans. It will be offered to buyers of any new-technology autos, including battery-powered autos and cars powered by natural gas, said a White House official.

I've actually given some thought to buying a NG powered car and home fueling station. Ongoing fuel & operating costs are FAR lower than gas-powered vehicles, particularly with discounted fuel rates to residential fueling stations. And part of the appeal is use of domestically produced NG as a hedge against rising (foreign-produced) oil prices.

It doesn't quite make economic sense since those models are about $10K more than the non-NG models, and the fueling station is ~$4K. At present only Honda is making a factory NG fueled car (the Civic GX @ $26,000 compared to their gas Civics at $15-20,000). There used to be a $4000 (I think) government subsidy for these vehicles but it expired in 2010 or 2011, not sure exactly when.

If there's $7500 of government cheese out there though, I might revisit the idea as a 3rd/4th vehicle for commuting or my teenage kids to drive ... It's not like any of them are going to get my M3 as a hand-me-down @ age 16.



More generally though, as much as I hate government waste, I do think there IS a place for government subsidy in the auto industry to nudge technology and production in a direction more compatible with overall national strategic energy policy.
 
I think this is 99.99% of the problem right here. When you're making a big investment, most people are going to at least TRY to do the math, and right now it just doesn't add up.

The other problem with electric cars is most people have some concern about battery longevity and replacement costs.

Anyone who's owned a laptop in the last 15 years knows that those batteries don't perform forever, and aren't cheap to replace.
 
I've actually given some thought to buying a NG powered car and home fueling station. Ongoing fuel & operating costs are FAR lower than gas-powered vehicles, particularly with discounted fuel rates to residential fueling stations. And part of the appeal is use of domestically produced NG as a hedge against rising (foreign-produced) oil prices.

It doesn't quite make economic sense since those models are about $10K more than the non-NG models, and the fueling station is ~$4K. At present only Honda is making a factory NG fueled car (the Civic GX @ $26,000 compared to their gas Civics at $15-20,000). There used to be a $4000 (I think) government subsidy for these vehicles but it expired in 2010 or 2011, not sure exactly when.

If there's $7500 of government cheese out there though, I might revisit the idea as a 3rd/4th vehicle for commuting or my teenage kids to drive ... It's not like any of them are going to get my M3 as a hand-me-down @ age 16.



More generally though, as much as I hate government waste, I do think there IS a place for government subsidy in the auto industry to nudge technology and production in a direction more compatible with overall national strategic energy policy.

Govt. has a role in helping facilitate FUELING stations. Once the fueling stations are common place Natural Gas will take off on its own merit. Auto Manufacturters will charge a smaller premium for LNG cars once there is a large market place. Who wouldn't pay a $3,000 premium for a car in which fuel costs $1.75 vs. $4.00 a gallon provided the stations are easily accessible.

Govt. has no role to play in subsidizing you purchase; let the free market place decide.

By the way LNG Ford Trucks are a reality now. Ditto for other light fleet vehicles. We have loads of LNG in the USA. But, Obama subsidizes other technologies instead of those things which are "shovel ready" to go now.

A by-product of LNG is lower cost for fuel for all of us at the pump.
 
Who wouldn't pay a $3,000 premium for a car in which fuel costs $1.75 vs. $4.00 a gallon provided the stations are easily accessible.

Exactly!

By the way LNG Ford Trucks are a reality now. Ditto for other light fleet vehicles. We have loads of LNG in the USA. But, Obama subsidizes other technologies instead of those things which are "shovel ready" to go now.

A by-product of LNG is lower cost for fuel for all of us at the pump.

Think you mean CNG (compressed natural gas) not LNG (liquid natural gas) which requires cryo ...

I was sort of aware that there were light truck and fleet options out there, but didn't look too hard we don't really need or want a truck or van. I'd consider something SUV-ish.

Range is reasonable, a couple hundred miles, good enough for commuting but not road trips since public fueling stations are so rare (even here in progressive-fuel-hippieville CA). The only thing that makes the CNG cars of interest to me is the home fueling station. The pump runs overnight taking your low-pressure residential gas and compresses it into the car's tank. (To the tune of 700 W x 8 hrs to fill an empty tank, which is not a trivial use of electricity, but still low cost.) Essentially you get a "plug in" car with all the advantages of electric, but none of the battery problems, at a lower cost, using the same internal combustion engines, which actually suffer less wear than the same engines running gasoline. Driving the car the feel is supposed to be same as a gas powered car, though none of them will win any races.

I'll keep my eye out to see if that $7500 cheese materializes, maybe revisit the issue then.
 
Govt. has no role to play in subsidizing you purchase; let the free market place decide.

Yes and no. Perfectly free markets taking into account all benefits and costs rarely exist and government has a role helping this to happen (monopolies, etc). Gasoline burning cars have a huge environmental and national security cost not taken into account by the free market. These costs need to be approximated and tacked onto to the price of those vehicles.
 
Last edited:
The pump runs overnight taking your low-pressure residential gas and compresses it into the car's tank.

You know how you see occasionally on the news a guy blows himself up from a gas barbeque leak, or his house is blown to smithereens because of a gas leak? It will only take one of these mobile fire bombs to blow up on the 405 and you'll lose 95% of all interested buyers. Just a thought.
 
Exactly!



Think you mean CNG (compressed natural gas) not LNG (liquid natural gas) which requires cryo ...

I was sort of aware that there were light truck and fleet options out there, but didn't look too hard we don't really need or want a truck or van. I'd consider something SUV-ish.

Range is reasonable, a couple hundred miles, good enough for commuting but not road trips since public fueling stations are so rare (even here in progressive-fuel-hippieville CA). The only thing that makes the CNG cars of interest to me is the home fueling station. The pump runs overnight taking your low-pressure residential gas and compresses it into the car's tank. (To the tune of 700 W x 8 hrs to fill an empty tank, which is not a trivial use of electricity, but still low cost.) Essentially you get a "plug in" car with all the advantages of electric, but none of the battery problems, at a lower cost, using the same internal combustion engines, which actually suffer less wear than the same engines running gasoline. Driving the car the feel is supposed to be same as a gas powered car, though none of them will win any races.

I'll keep my eye out to see if that $7500 cheese materializes, maybe revisit the issue then.


http://www.cngnow.com/vehicles/cars-for-consumers/Pages/information.aspx

F250Ad.jpg
 
Yes and no. Perfectly free markets taking into account all benefits and costs rarely exist and government has a role helping this to happen (monopolies, etc). Gasoline burning cars have a huge environmental and national security cost not taken into account by the free market. These costs need to be approximated and tacked onto to the price of those vehicles.

So, it's not a natural gas car subsidy, but rather a gasoline burning car fee that needs to be in place (basically same result). No different than the fine you get for polluting a river. Free markets don't take into account social environmental costs.

Cato_Discretionary_Spending_Cap_in_Debt_Deal.jpg
 
BLADEMDA said:
That doesn't look good.

Per capita debt figures without the context of per capita income or GDP isn't very useful.

Where does Germany fall on that scary graph? Canada? UK? Japan? It's insanity to make the statement that we're worse off than Greece, for example, but that's exactly what that graph implies.

I hate these graphs; they're essentially propaganda tools that are set up to mislead. Many of them, if they showed up in an anesthesiology journal, would result in said journal getting tossed in the trash.


You know my opinion on the debt and deficits, but can't we be a little more selective in which graphs we cut & paste?
 
Top