Ivy Postbac v State School

[Non Trad 2015]

Hi All,

I'm currently a postbac at Columbia. At 31, I'm among the older students in the program. Last semester went quite well, and I have a high regard for the program generally, but I am almost certain quitting is the right thing to do at this junction.

My stats:
3.9 from a marginal state school fresh/sophomore
3.4 from the top 25 I transfered to
Majored in business administration
1520 GRE, 5.5 in 2010

Columbia does have value:
1. The quality of instruction is generally pretty high and obviously the name has tremendous value.
2. The linkage programs are great...However, I am skeptical that I'm going to qualify for linkage, as I'm doubting I can get the 3.75+ it takes, and my relationship with my advisor can only be characterized as mildly disastrous - this is mostly my fault, but it is a factor and I don't think there's any repairing it.

The net difference in costs:
1. Employment - I've not found employment in NY, won't be able to work during orgo/bio, assume I can find employment within 90 days after returning to home state (had major licensing headaches on move to NY, easy to find work with the license, have license in home state). 15 months on conservative average of 5k (was doing 9k per month before I quit) per months = 75k
2. Tuition Difference - 70k to finish Columbia, below 15k to finish in home state = 55k
3. Cost of living differences - 2.5k per month in NYC (in ghetto, with roommates), 1.5k in home town in my house = 18k.

So basically, the costs of finishing the program are around $150,000. The clear value is the Columbia name. There's a potential value on linkage, but my relationship with my advisor is disastrous. And New York was a big draw primarily because my girlfriend of 4 years had to move here for work mid last year and we split early last month

My goal is to get into any domestic MD program, but DO is fine too. I've always done extremely well on standardized testing, and with enough work I think its relatively safe to say I'll do between 80th and 90th percentile on the MCAT. With summer courses, it won't impact application timelines.

I'm thinking that the difference between a Columbia postbac with a 3.6 and a state school informal postbac with a 4.0 is not worth 150k, but before taking such a radical step wanted to discuss with disinterested others. What are your thoughts?

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[bbbaaa]

If you had just done an informal post-bacc at a state school from the get-go you would have been fine, assuming you kept up a high GPA to go with your already pretty good undergrad GPA, did well on the MCAT and had your extracurriculars and LORs nailed down, which it sounds like you could/would have.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear you're spending a ton more money just for the Columbia name, which you don't really need if all the assumptions I just listed hold true.

The only thing I can't really comment on is, is it going to look like you just couldn't cut it at Columbia? You would probably need to have a rehearsed answer for the switch (this post being a good start, minus your disastrous advising relationship...) in case it drew some questions. But again, that's the only potential downside I see, and I don't know enough to comment confidently on it.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Unless you are rich or have rich people supporting you, I'd for sure just save the money. I think this is even more true if you're ok with DO even if you'd prefer an MD (as even if MD fails it looks like you'd be a fantastic candidate for DO).

 

[QuentinT88]

I was debating going to UPenn for some time, but decided against it to go to a state school that is cheaper for my post bacc.

I personally chose to save the $$. And I didn't view the benefit of Penn (an ivy) outweighing the costs

Just my 2 cents

 

[pageantry]

I'm in NYC too. Everyone I know who did Columbia is pretty clear that they believe the name did little for them--although who knows. Underdogs do get love from adcoms, though. My ghetto school consistently interviews alongside Ivies.

The biggest upside to Columbia (I personally think) is the increased opportunity to shadow and research and get LORs at an Ivy League school. You also can do shadowing at Harlem Hospital, which is a solid urban MUP, and a good experience to claim. I've been able to do all that without paying Columbia tuition, though. I'm sure you could too. Getting away from a likely poor committee letter (you seem to believe) can only be a good thing. I've SEEN some poor committee letters, and jeeeesh... It's stomach turning what one angry person can do to two years and $200,000.

If the instruction at your state school is poor, you can always supplement with Khan. Works wonders.

My $.02. Hope it all works out for you, whatever you do!

 

[Goro]

I don't care where you do your post-bac as long as you ace it.

 

[Non Trad 2015]

I have enough to pay for the Columbia Postbac, but just barely. For my goals - any domestic MD or DO - I just don't think its worth the money. If I cared a lot about the prestige of the medical school, then Columbia would help a lot.

I'm going to save myself 150k and go to the state school back home. Its not a bad school per se, and a 4.0 will be obtainable while working there. That just leaves me and the MCAT, and with prep and such, I'm sure it will be enough for a DO, and may be enough for an MD.

Thanks for the input

 

[gyngyn]

The pedigree of the post bac doesn't matter where I work.
The quality of the result does, though.

 

[jamcat]

I tutor many Columbia post-baccs and am pretty involved with the program. Please quit. Here's a thread where I wrote an extensive review: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/columbia-vs-nyu-postbacc.1110272/

I won't re-post everything I wrote there, but I'll add a few things.

Expect your GPA to drop significantly next year. If you didn't think this semester was absolute cakewalk (which it sounds like you didn't because you don't have a 4.0), do not proceed. Seriously.

I'll also add that nearly everybody at your stage is quite pleased with the program. They think that a lower GPA at Columbia will make them as competitive as as the state school applicant with a 3.9/4.0. It simply won't, and they don't realize this until it is too late. You won't find many (any?) students who are happy with the program by the middle/end of second year.

Also, the only people who actually get linkage are the ones who would have been accepted no problem without it. You only get nominated for linkage by the school if you are an absolutely stellar candidate. Don't assume this will be you, particularly with your 3.4 from undergrad.

The advising is pretty atrocious. One student I know had a 3.8 undergrad, got through the first year of Columbia's post-bacc with a 3.2, and then was getting Cs his second year and his advisor seemed to think his med school application list, which consisted entirely of top tier schools, was appropriate. There are other horror stories; don't think you are alone in having problems with them.

Also, at Columbia you're right that you probably won't be able to work during Orgo/Bio year. From what I understand (adcoms correct me if I'm wrong) it will look odd that you were only taking two classes and weren't able to handle anything else. That's absolutely normal at Columbia, but I've been told it raises eyebrows because not everybody is familiar with Mowsch Bio.

You only get one shot at doing this right. Go to a state school and get a higher GPA and you'll have many more doors open to you than you would have at Columbia. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

 

[Non Trad 2015]

Also, the only people who actually get linkage are the ones who would have been accepted no problem without it. You only get nominated for linkage by the school if you are an absolutely stellar candidate. Don't assume this will be you, particularly with your 3.4 from undergrad.

Linkage is a huge benefit because of the loss of the gap year. But with a 3.4 and a very un-stellar relationship with my adviser, I figured it was best to cut losses earlier rather than later.

You only get one shot at doing this right. Go to a state school and get a higher GPA and you'll have many more doors open to you than you would have at Columbia. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Although I agree with your general assessment of the various "non traditional" courses at Columbia - Mosh's bio is indeed outside the box, my general chemistry 1 was at least a third "history of chemistry" and about an sixth o-chem - I'm reminded that 90% of those who finish do get in, many of them to the highest quality medical schools in the country. If money were no object, it is a very good program.

That said, I don't think its right for me, because outside of it being a domestic program, I'm extremely laid back about where I go and am paying for all this myself.

The advising is pretty atrocious. One student I know had a 3.8 undergrad, got through the first year of Columbia's post-bacc with a 3.2, and then was getting Cs his second year and his advisor seemed to think his med school application list, which consisted entirely of top tier schools, was appropriate. There are other horror stories; don't think you are alone in having problems with them.

The difficult relationship with my adviser was entirely my fault: I made an off color joke in in the hall outside orientation, not realizing anyone other than a buddy of mine was in earshot. Walked around corner and there's my adviser with a meanface. No reports of problems from any of my cohort with advisers, although some of these people are paying 6k to take precalc at Columbia.

Its a great program, if money is no object.

 

[ridethecliche]

Do the cheapest post bacc at a reputable university. Ace the MCAT. Profit.

Location doesn't matter. The GPA and MCAT even the playing field. If your courses are cookie cutter and easy, your MCAT will suffer. The MCAT is a litmus of rigor to a certain extent.

 

[Non Trad 2015]

So what is a nontrad to do with all this info? As I said at the beginning of this , with the many factor and issues that nontrads have to deal with and the balances and compromises they may have to make in order to complete prerequisites, my rule of thumb is

Take classes at the best institution that you can do well in[/quote]

Agreed, but I'm skeptical that a 3.6 from Columbia - which is probably where I would have landed - is any different in anyone's mind from a 4.0 at a state university. "He's a slightly above average Columbia postbac" is about the same signal as "He's a stellar state school candidate"

 

[Juldarus]

As mentioned above by @ridethecliche, the MCAT is key. Churn out a great score and nobody is going to care where you went for your post-bac.

Also, you don't really need a formal post-bac program. Simply taking courses at your local public school could save time and if you enroll as a degree seeker (even if you don't really plan on completing a degree), you can sign up for financial aid and have good pick of classes

 

[jamcat]

I'm reminded that 90% of those who finish do get in, many of them to the highest quality medical schools in the country. If money were no object, it is a very good program.

What you don't know about at this point is the extraordinarily high attrition rate. The majority of students who begin the post-bacc there drop out. 90% who finish do get in somewhere, but you've removed a lot of very good candidates who could have been competitive med school applicants had they gone to an easier place for a post-bacc.

The ones who get into the top medical schools are ones like a woman I know who double majored in math and computer science at MIT with a 3.96 GPA and got a 4.0 in Columbia's program. Folks with a 3.8 undergrad, 3.4 at Columbia end up going to places like Stony Brook and NYMC.

Agreed, but I'm skeptical that a 3.6 from Columbia - which is probably where I would have landed - is any different in anyone's mind from a 4.0 at a state university. "He's a slightly above average Columbia postbac" is about the same signal as "He's a stellar state school candidate"

You're straight up wrong, sorry. Since you're new here, maybe you don't know that Goro and gyngyn are med school admissions committee members, and have repeatedly indicated (including in this thread, in response to your query) that this is not the case, despite what the Columbia folks claim. Again, your thoughts are very typical of first-year Columbia post-baccs. They don't realize until it's too late. (Also, you're not considering the GPA nosedive in Orgo/Bio year. Plenty of people who get an A- average first year are getting B- in Mowsch and Bs in Orgo. That's why people in your position are very happy with the program, but fast forward a year and you will literally not find anybody who doesn't think they made a mistake.)

Look, I'm somebody who went to an Ivy/Stanford/Duke/UChicago (trying to maintain anonymity) and didn't get a stellar GPA. I'm a 4.0 state school student though, and so I'm going through an informal post-bacc to demonstrate this before I apply. So while I understand where you're coming from, your vision simply isn't reality in the med school admissions game, and it's best to realize this before sacrificing the grades for rigor. Don't make the same mistake I did!

 

[PostBacc2016]

Jamcat, could you PM me (SDN won't let me send a PM to you) ? Would like to get in touch with you as I am in a similar situation. Thanks.