Jefferson bat murder

[sstache1]

I don't know if any of you have heard, but a 3rd year was killed last week at Jefferson by one of her former classmates. Appearently the attacker had bipolar disorder and was asked to leave Jeff, due to "extreme changes in behavior" or something like that. Basically this guy beat the victim to death with a baseball bat on a crowded street corner in the middle of Philly in broad daylight.

Heres a link that tells all the details.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/110904_nw_batattack-ali.html

First I must say I am appalled that this happened. My heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. It is truly a shame that an individual with such potential was taken away.

But here's the part where I have to be cynical. How does someone like the attacker get into medical school. I'm sure at times he showed great potential to be a doctor, which was probably why he was admitted.

I must admit, I am quick to point the finger because right now I am a re-applicant, and having to re-apply has seriously jaded my view of the application process. To make matters worse, last cycle, I was placed on the high priority wait list at Jeff and didn't get a spot. Now I could bitch and complain that life isn't fair, because I am a good applicant and I know I will do well in med school. But that's not the point I am trying to raise here. I am quite certain there are many other individual out there that get into medical school, and shouldn't be there, for a number of reasons. With possibilities ranging from it's because they are only doing it because their family pressured them, or they have a personality disorder that could make them dangerous to others, or because they are just in it for the money, plently of people get in and shouldn't be there. Or maybe I'm just a cry baby whose mad at the world...

If you read through this post and don't give a crap, I'm sorry you read through my little rant. But if you have any thoughts, please share, I'd love to hear what other have to say, whether they agree or disagree with me.

And if you believe in that sort of thing, say a prayer for the victim and her family.

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[dr.z]

I don't know if any of you have heard, but a 3rd year was killed last week at Jefferson by one of her former classmates. Appearently the attacker had bipolar disorder and was asked to leave Jeff, due to "extreme changes in behavior" or something like that. Basically this guy beat the victim to death with a baseball bat on a crowded street corner in the middle of Philly in broad daylight.

Heres a link that tells all the details.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/110904_nw_batattack-ali.html

First I must say I am appalled that this happened. My heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. It is truly a shame that an individual with such potential was taken away.

But here's the part where I have to be cynical. How does someone like the attacker get into medical school. I'm sure at times he showed great potential to be a doctor, which was probably why he was admitted.

I must admit, I am quick to point the finger because right now I am a re-applicant, and having to re-apply has seriously jaded my view of the application process. To make matters worse, last cycle, I was placed on the high priority wait list at Jeff and didn't get a spot. Now I could bitch and complain that life isn't fair, because I am a good applicant and I know I will do well in med school. But that's not the point I am trying to raise here. I am quite certain there are many other individual out there that get into medical school, and shouldn't be there, for a number of reasons. With possibilities ranging from it's because they are only doing it because their family pressured them, or they have a personality disorder that could make them dangerous to others, or because they are just in it for the money, plently of people get in and shouldn't be there. Or maybe I'm just a cry baby whose mad at the world...

If you read through this post and don't give a crap, I'm sorry you read through my little rant. But if you have any thoughts, please share, I'd love to hear what other have to say, whether they agree or disagree with me.

And if you believe in that sort of thing, say a prayer for the victim and her family.

This is crazy news. My prayers go out to the victim and the family members. I really wonder how this person got into medical school.

 

[docquaker]

unfortunately, when it comes down to it, it's all about your numbers=( high stats will get you in...

 

[CA med app]

My prayer goes out to Lea Sullivan and her friends & family. With news like these, med schools should start having background checks for ALL their applicants. It's costly, but where else is the $100 secondary fee going to?

 

[Code Brown]

My prayer goes out to Lea Sullivan and her friends & family. With news like these, med schools should start having background checks for ALL their applicants. It's costly, but where else is the $100 secondary fee going to?

Not to sound cold, but you can't have a knee-jerk reaction like that everytime something goes wrong. Life is weird, in that sometimes random things happen that shouldn't happen. All a background check will do is tell you if that person got caught in the past so that won't help much. Doing a full psych evaluation would be crazy. Can you imagine running a full psych profile on 9000 applicants if you are BU? The process would take years and cost thousands of dollars per person and the application process and tuition would be astronomical. And even with this, stuff would still happen. Plus, since this only happens once in a while, I think the trade off is worth it. I'd be more worried about my crazy neighbor going off or some drunk driver than a fellow med student and wouldn't want to pay any more. Also, all those barriers will raise the cost and keep people who are perfectly fine out, which, in my opinion, is worse that worrying about one person slipping through.

 

[njbmd]

My prayer goes out to Lea Sullivan and her friends & family. With news like these, med schools should start having background checks for ALL their applicants. It's costly, but where else is the $100 secondary fee going to?

Hi there,
Many medical schools and definitely residency programs do background checks. A background check probably would not have eliminated this random act of violence. No one knows what was in the mind of this attacker but the victim was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is a recipe for tragedy.

Secondary application fees go into general financial funds. They are a huge money maker for many schools who charge large secondary fees and send secondary applications to every student who applies.

njbmd

 

[sstache1]

I wanted to add a few more thoughts to what is being bounced around.

It is a valid point to say that there is really know way of predicting a tragedy such as the one which occurred via background checks and some-such.

However, arfter checking a few other articles, it seems that the attacker knew the victim before he was kicked out of school and the attacker actually came into contact with the victim earlier in the day before the attack. However, as it was said, no one really can ever know what was going on in the mind of the attacker that day that caused the events to transpire.

With that being said, I was really just trying to point out that there are poeple in med school who shouldn't be there, for lots of reasons. Consequently, there are people who aren't in med school who derserve to be there and aren't because of the system.

And lastly, I just wanted to add that it is unfortunate that such a terrible thing happened at such a fine institution. I don't feel that the incident reflects poorly on the Jefferson admission committee, and I'm sure the attacker was a good applicant. I have always considered Jeff as one of my top choices and I would still go to there at the drop of a hat if given the opportunity.

It just sucks that bad things happen to good people sometimes.

 

[Art Vandalay]

As scary as it is that this guy got into school... another thing I don't understand is why nobody did anything to stop this guy. South street is a busy street. A group of people could have at least jumped on the guy. If I saw someone getting beaten to death... I would try to stop it. Maybe it's human nature to stay on the sidelines... at least somebody got his plate number.

 

[OSU03]

I'm sure the people around the attack where stricken with fear, and that may explain why they didnt do anything to stop it. There is a strong preservation of life mode that people go into during these things, so you can't really blame them. I'm sure that they attended to her as soon as the obvious danger fled.

What a horrible situation.

 

[SRQGirl]

As scary as it is that this guy got into school... another thing I don't understand is why nobody did anything to stop this guy. South street is a busy street. A group of people could have at least jumped on the guy. If I saw someone getting beaten to death... I would try to stop it. Maybe it's human nature to stay on the sidelines... at least somebody got his plate number.

I agree that the fact that nobody tried to stop this attack is the most upsetting part of this story. I just don't understand how people can see something like that happening and not do anything. It's not like the guy had a gun, and it was suicidal for anybody to get involved. My prayers go out to the victim and her family.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Just for clarification - the attack lasted 15 seconds and by the time anyone COULD react ... it was over and he was running away. People did try to stop it but you have to know the area. It is a crowded street and with the world today, you wonder if things are surreal or not. I'm sure some people thought this was a joke and those that witnessed it must live with the horror for the rest of their life of the "what if I could have stopped him". I think that you can not look to the onlookers to help as I stated before ... 15 secs ... from start to finish. Maybe shorter. A few swift strikes she was down and out for the count and he was off. You have to keep that in perspective.

The saddest part is that the world needed more people like herself, she was a talented woman by accounts of her friends and past acquaintances. He had been to visit her the day before and had "stalked" her. His history and family life apparently marked this incident as "not unexpected" by his neighbors.

It was a tragedy for the area, and the sad part it was just one of quite a few that happened in the philadelphia area that weekend. But it happens everyday ... and all across the world.

 

[SRQGirl]

Just for clarification - the attack lasted 15 seconds and by the time anyone COULD react ... it was over and he was running away. People did try to stop it but you have to know the area. It is a crowded street and with the world today, you wonder if things are surreal or not. I'm sure some people thought this was a joke and those that witnessed it must live with the horror for the rest of their life of the "what if I could have stopped him".

Thanks for the added info. You have at least partially restored my faith in humanity!

 

[mshheaddoc]

Thanks for the added info. You have at least partially restored my faith in humanity!

Partial restorement will not bring her back. Its sad that 10 secs can change someone's life forever. That is something to think about. One of the witnesses was across the street and by the time she ran over - he was gone.

 

[stinkycheese]

Hi there,
Many medical schools and definitely residency programs do background checks. A background check probably would not have eliminated this random act of violence.

I don't know how anyone can say that. If they had known about his assault charge, would they have really let him in with open arms? Background checks are routine for employers, even huge employers that see 30000 applicants a year. A criminal background check (CORI) would not be too much to ask for med schools. And to whomever said that the "trade off" of not paying more money is "worth" it when situations like this happen - well, shame on you.

 

[stinkycheese]

As scary as it is that this guy got into school... another thing I don't understand is why nobody did anything to stop this guy. South street is a busy street. A group of people could have at least jumped on the guy. If I saw someone getting beaten to death... I would try to stop it. Maybe it's human nature to stay on the sidelines... at least somebody got his plate number.

Kitty Genovese. Diffusion of responsibility. The best thing to do in a situation where you're being attacked and people are standing around not responding is to point to a specific person and tell them to call the police. That way, they know that it is their responsibility and no one will do it for them.

Edit to add: clearly, inthis situation, there was no time for the victim to assign responsibility to onlookers, and no time for onlookers to help. But if you're being beaten up, or if you get into a car accident and people are standing around dumbfounded, that's when pointing to one and telling them to call the police will help.

 

[Fermata]

Kitty Genovese. Diffusion of responsibility.

That story was always so depressing to hear.

This also is a sad story.

Some people just snap I guess.

The real tragedy is gonna be for her family.

 

[ASDIC]

This is what happens when medical schools dont do background checks on thier applicants. They all want applicants with high stats...they dont give a **** about the personality of the applicant.

My prayers for Lea and her family, I hope this dingus gets what he deserves.

There was a similar case in the University of Arkansas School of Medicine, where a medical student murdered his wife, a resident at one of the hospitals there.

 

[ElKapitan]

As scary as it is that this guy got into school... another thing I don't understand is why nobody did anything to stop this guy. South street is a busy street. A group of people could have at least jumped on the guy. If I saw someone getting beaten to death... I would try to stop it. Maybe it's human nature to stay on the sidelines... at least somebody got his plate number.

I don't think it is so easy, some guy starts swinging a baseball bat at someones head, your probably going to be startled at first. Secondly you might wonder what precipitated the whole event. I do agree though, that there should have been a mob chasing this guy down after the first couple swings.

 

[jdovez]

. I do agree though, that there should have been a mob chasing this guy down after the first couple swings.

I concur, 15 seconds is a pretty long time if you are standing 20 feet away from someone. Once someone saw this big guy swinging a bat at a woman, they should have ran at him. I dont know about the "self preservation" argument. I for one believe in helping anyone that needs it, in this case you grab someone else and rush the guy. I think it was a very unfortunate situation but one can not in any way blame Jefferson for admitting him.

Background check or not most mental illness would not be detectable through the standard application/interview process. Unfortunately, society does not do enough to help those afflicted with this type of illness. I think this is a horrible situation for all involved, but it is pointless to blame the medical school application process for missing the signs of mental illness. Unfortunately, I am sure this former student had fine stats and did excellently in his interview. I would say it was then the responsibility of the program to give him all of the help he needed. Most likely this was attempted, he refused, and they asked him to leave.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Yes in hindsight 15 secs is an eternity, but when you are standing right there ... try it. It was less than 15 secs from start to finish and noone could help, though some people tried. Obviously it wasn't completely crowded otherwise the guy wouldn't have had the range of motion he did to swing it. South Street is more crowded down a couple of blocks, although I'm sure the corner or 10th/11th street had people. I have been there on Sunday afternoons, I would know. At least the artist got the sketch of the man which led to his apprehension. Just like the woman who was interviewed who tried to run across and help her, but by the time you turn around and go to grab the guy it was over. Have you ever been in that situation to know? I have ... you would be surprised how YOU would react to something of that nature. Not all people have the reaction to jump in, especially in philly, especially on south street, especially with a guy in a mask, who's to say A.) that it is not a prank B.) He had a gun and finally C.) You don't know WHAT is going on. At lot of time it will take you a couple of secs just to assess the situation, for most people its shock that will set in, unless you've been a bouncer for like 5 years and your natural instinct to violence is to jump in. Who's to say noone else wouldn't have gotten hurt. The guy was crazy. It just disheartens me when people start to harp on the bystanders who had no idea what was going on to begin with. I'm done talking about it - I've said what needs to be said.

 

[jdovez]

Yes in hindsight 15 secs is an eternity, but when you are standing right there ... try it. It was less than 15 secs from start to finish and noone could help, though some people tried. Obviously it wasn't completely crowded otherwise the guy wouldn't have had the range of motion he did to swing it. South Street is more crowded down a couple of blocks, although I'm sure the corner or 10th/11th street had people. I have been there on Sunday afternoons, I would know. At least the artist got the sketch of the man which led to his apprehension. Just like the woman who was interviewed who tried to run across and help her, but by the time you turn around and go to grab the guy it was over. Have you ever been in that situation to know? I have ... you would be surprised how YOU would react to something of that nature. Not all people have the reaction to jump in, especially in philly, especially on south street, especially with a guy in a mask, who's to say A.) that it is not a prank B.) He had a gun and finally C.) You don't know WHAT is going on. At lot of time it will take you a couple of secs just to assess the situation, for most people its shock that will set in, unless you've been a bouncer for like 5 years and your natural instinct to violence is to jump in. Who's to say noone else wouldn't have gotten hurt. The guy was crazy. It just disheartens me when people start to harp on the bystanders who had no idea what was going on to begin with. I'm done talking about it - I've said what needs to be said.

Just to clarify my point, I agree with you that shock, fear etc are the first emotions to set in and I don't fault any bystanders in particular. I am sure those that were there are going to live with the feelings of helplessness and other emotions their whole lives. But as someone who has been to south street (actually i was there that very morning), and as someone who has been in a number of situations in which adrenaline, fear are the first responses, I can say that 15 seconds is an eternity in which to respond, but fear is debilitating. I wouldn't say everyones first response is preservation and I would say that for me, and many others the first response after fear/shock is to stop the action and notify the police. I would say it is simply unfortunate that in this certain circumstance no one in the immediate vicinity was able to interfere in time. I feel very sorry for the woman's family as well as for the family of the attacker and the attacker himself.

 

[Art Vandalay]

Yes in hindsight 15 secs is an eternity, but when you are standing right there ... try it. It was less than 15 secs from start to finish and noone could help, though some people tried. Obviously it wasn't completely crowded otherwise the guy wouldn't have had the range of motion he did to swing it. South Street is more crowded down a couple of blocks, although I'm sure the corner or 10th/11th street had people. I have been there on Sunday afternoons, I would know. At least the artist got the sketch of the man which led to his apprehension. Just like the woman who was interviewed who tried to run across and help her, but by the time you turn around and go to grab the guy it was over. Have you ever been in that situation to know? I have ... you would be surprised how YOU would react to something of that nature. Not all people have the reaction to jump in, especially in philly, especially on south street, especially with a guy in a mask, who's to say A.) that it is not a prank B.) He had a gun and finally C.) You don't know WHAT is going on. At lot of time it will take you a couple of secs just to assess the situation, for most people its shock that will set in, unless you've been a bouncer for like 5 years and your natural instinct to violence is to jump in. Who's to say noone else wouldn't have gotten hurt. The guy was crazy. It just disheartens me when people start to harp on the bystanders who had no idea what was going on to begin with. I'm done talking about it - I've said what needs to be said.

I went to school in philly and know the area pretty well. I didn't know the exact location of the incident, but your'e right 10th and South isn't the busiest part of South street, but on average there is still a decent number of people walking in the area. It takes like 5 seconds to run across a Philly street. It's probably that nobody really pays attention to other people's business until it really catches their eye. I don't mean to blame those witnesses because I bet they tried to do everything they could've done at the time. This talk about heroism reminds me of a story... A friend of mine was living out by 40th and Osage Ave (W. philly), and was walking back from class and saw this woman getting hasseled by a homeless guy. He ran over and stepped in.... and then heard someone yell "Cut! Cut!" Turns out he stepped into a scene for a TV show called Hack (which is off the air now).

 

[burlypie]

Someone in my class asked the Dean the same question when we were informed of the incident.

a) To quote him, "There is something called the Americans with Disabilities Act" which prohibits discrimination on the basis of medical history. In essence, they can't ask about this stuff. They can ask about criminal activity, though. Probably none in this case.

b) Additionally, people *develop* psychiatric illness. From what I have heard, he developed his illness while he was in school, (ie wasn't admitted to school with it) and was on medical leave due to his illness.

This was a tragic event that happened VERY quickly. The community here was impacted in many different ways, but overall I was impressed with the caring that students and staff showed toward one another. Uncontrolled mental illness can be a very scary thing.

 

[bewitched1081]

i read the entire story. im surprised that two other people were violently murdered within 24 hours of this incident. is it really that dangerous in philly?

 

[lightnk102]

i read the entire story. im surprised that two other people were violently murdered within 24 hours of this incident. is it really that dangerous in philly?

crime rates in cities are naturally higher than the are in the suburbs. philly is a city, just like new york and d.c. are. i wouldn't consider it to be any more or less dangerous. unfortunately, higher crime rates are something you have to deal with when you're in any urban area. greater density of population and greater diversity of socioeconomic classes is a double edged sword. you gain immensely from being in such a rich environment and seeing so many things that are different from your own background. but you also have to be smarter about things.

as is evident by the jefferson tragedy, violent crime can be perpetrated at random by anyone, including a medical student. likewise, i'm sure this tragedy could just as easily have happened in a more rural area like at Dartmouth, and you likely wouldn't see people generalizing that maybe Hanover is so "dangerous".

in my opinion, philly offers a lot to a student. it may arguably be my favorite city, even over boston and new york (i've lived for extended periods of time in all three, though new york is a -very- close second). then again, city-living really isn't for everyone. i just happen to be a fan of them

 

[stoic]

FYI:

due to recent policy changes in the accrediation guidelines, essentially all medical students will be subjected to background checks before they matriculate (actually this extends to pretty much everyone who will set foot in a hospital as an employee).

at KU we get to pay for it ourselves!!!!

 

[mshheaddoc]

i read the entire story. im surprised that two other people were violently murdered within 24 hours of this incident. is it really that dangerous in philly?

People are violently murdered every day, there were more than just 3 that time period, but they were all unique and bizarre in their own sense.

 

[stinkycheese]

Someone in my class asked the Dean the same question when we were informed of the incident.

a) To quote him, "There is something called the Americans with Disabilities Act" which prohibits discrimination on the basis of medical history. In essence, they can't ask about this stuff. They can ask about criminal activity, though. Probably none in this case.

He had a history of assault charges.

 

[Ypo.]

As scary as it is that this guy got into school... another thing I don't understand is why nobody did anything to stop this guy. South street is a busy street. A group of people could have at least jumped on the guy. If I saw someone getting beaten to death... I would try to stop it. Maybe it's human nature to stay on the sidelines... at least somebody got his plate number.

Thank you. I sure as hell would have done something, grabbed some heavy object, ran up to the guy and started screaming-if I had the feeling he would start beating me with the bat, yelled at other people to help!! Anything but stand there and watch. Thats terrible. So sad. I feel so sorry for that poor girl and her family. I feel sorry for the family of the attacker, too.

 

[banannie]

I don't know if any of you have heard, but a 3rd year was killed last week at Jefferson by one of her former classmates. Appearently the attacker had bipolar disorder and was asked to leave Jeff, due to "extreme changes in behavior" or something like that. Basically this guy beat the victim to death with a baseball bat on a crowded street corner in the middle of Philly in broad daylight.

Heres a link that tells all the details.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/110904_nw_batattack-ali.html

First I must say I am appalled that this happened. My heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. It is truly a shame that an individual with such potential was taken away.

But here's the part where I have to be cynical. How does someone like the attacker get into medical school. I'm sure at times he showed great potential to be a doctor, which was probably why he was admitted.

I must admit, I am quick to point the finger because right now I am a re-applicant, and having to re-apply has seriously jaded my view of the application process. To make matters worse, last cycle, I was placed on the high priority wait list at Jeff and didn't get a spot. Now I could bitch and complain that life isn't fair, because I am a good applicant and I know I will do well in med school. But that's not the point I am trying to raise here. I am quite certain there are many other individual out there that get into medical school, and shouldn't be there, for a number of reasons. With possibilities ranging from it's because they are only doing it because their family pressured them, or they have a personality disorder that could make them dangerous to others, or because they are just in it for the money, plently of people get in and shouldn't be there. Or maybe I'm just a cry baby whose mad at the world...

If you read through this post and don't give a crap, I'm sorry you read through my little rant. But if you have any thoughts, please share, I'd love to hear what other have to say, whether they agree or disagree with me.

And if you believe in that sort of thing, say a prayer for the victim and her family.

yes, lovely of you to state that you are "appalled" and that we should pray for the victim. Personally, I'm disgusted that you're using this tragedy as an excuse to b**** and moan about the fact that you haven't been accepted to med school. Please get over yourself.

 

[dmk724]

But here's the part where I have to be cynical. How does someone like the attacker get into medical school. I'm sure at times he showed great potential to be a doctor, which was probably why he was admitted.

I am quite certain there are many other individual out there that get into medical school, and shouldn't be there, for a number of reasons. With possibilities ranging from it's because they are only doing it because their family pressured them, or they have a personality disorder that could make them dangerous to others, or because they are just in it for the money, plently of people get in and shouldn't be there.

As a Jefferson student, I have had the chance to talk to students and faculty who knew both students. Surprisingly enough, people have shown so much sympathy for both the victim AND the attacker, because he honestly seemed to have suffered a severe mental illness that completely reversed his behavior. People who knew him from school only had kind things to say, and genuinely seemed shocked that he had done this. From what I can gather, he was genuinely interested in helping people, was a very spiritual person, and honestly liked his classmates. So please don't question his motivation for going into medicine, and please don't assume that his resolve wasn't strong enough to withstand the stresses of med school. For one thing, we will probably never really know why he attacked her, and secondly, from what people have told me, those two assumptions are not true.

While it seems easy to say that you would have rushed in to help a woman who was being beaten in front of your eyes, many people didn't really know what was going on - some people said that they thought that he was just hitting the sidewalk. I'm sure that what happened did happen fast, and it's just fortunate that they could at least get the car's licensce plate number.

 

[Giving My .02]

yes, lovely of you to state that you are "appalled" and that we should pray for the victim. Personally, I'm disgusted that you're using this tragedy as an excuse to b**** and moan about the fact that you haven't been accepted to med school. Please get over yourself.

I agree, and don't think this situation involving someone's life should validate your feelings that people who got accepted should not have. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[iamgoaloriented]

There are all kinds of screwballs in med school. At one school I was interviewed by a student who told me how disgusting she though overweight people were when I told her about my interest in obesity (her eyes were a little red and she had a glazed look about her the whole time).

I agree that it seems that some people clearly shouldnt have managed to get into med school, but keep in mind that talking with a student for 30 minutes, especially when they are on their best behavior, isnt enough time to gaurantee that they person you are talking to will really make a good doctor or that they are a good, stable person. You would think someone would have noticed something was wrong with him while in med school though.

As far as nobody helping the girl goes, I agree that it is terrible and you would think someone would have tried, but it is much easier to say that on a forum than to do it when the big guy with the bat who has no value for human life, clearly isnt thinkin about the consequences of his actions, and is perhaps even so high on adrenalin that his strength is unbelievable enhanced is standing right in front of you.

 

[medstyle]

hmmm, they are weird people in every walk of life. You know, you can't go around excluding every person based on this or that. Full psych workups won't do anything except alienate many people on the off chance one person could go beserk. I would hate to be psychologist determing who i think is unfit to accomplish their dream because there is a tiny chance something could go wrong. The whole "what about the chiildren!" mentality needs to stop. Everyone is human, we all make mistakes and have problems, we can still find a way to get along.

There are 17000 people entering med school every year. There will be people from all walks of life in med school. I mean, even our president has a charge or two...(not saying i like him).

Stuff happens. Its sad, but its not preventable. The best case situation is to just give everyone the support they need and keep and eye out on classmates or friends who may need help. If someone is acting strange towards you, perhaps you should let them know that they are being weird and take precautions to make sure the situation doesn't escalate.

Even then, things will go wrong. My heart goes out to the families of both indiviiduals. Its a tragedy.

btw, the kid was kicked out of jefferson before the incident. sadly, it's no one's fault and everyone's loss.

 

[Pembleton]

What did it take for Jefferson to expel him? I know he had a massive personality change or something. Did the school try and get him some psych help?

 

[Fermata]

What did it take for Jefferson to expel him? I know he had a massive personality change or something. Did the school try and get him some psych help?

Maybe he was just nuts?

(Example: beating someone to death with baseball bat in public.)

 

[irie]

I don't know if any of you have heard, but a 3rd year was killed last week at Jefferson by one of her former classmates. Appearently the attacker had bipolar disorder and was asked to leave Jeff, due to "extreme changes in behavior" or something like that. Basically this guy beat the victim to death with a baseball bat on a crowded street corner in the middle of Philly in broad daylight.

Heres a link that tells all the details.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/110904_nw_batattack-ali.html

First I must say I am appalled that this happened. My heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. It is truly a shame that an individual with such potential was taken away.

But here's the part where I have to be cynical. How does someone like the attacker get into medical school. I'm sure at times he showed great potential to be a doctor, which was probably why he was admitted.

I must admit, I am quick to point the finger because right now I am a re-applicant, and having to re-apply has seriously jaded my view of the application process. To make matters worse, last cycle, I was placed on the high priority wait list at Jeff and didn't get a spot. Now I could bitch and complain that life isn't fair, because I am a good applicant and I know I will do well in med school. But that's not the point I am trying to raise here. I am quite certain there are many other individual out there that get into medical school, and shouldn't be there, for a number of reasons. With possibilities ranging from it's because they are only doing it because their family pressured them, or they have a personality disorder that could make them dangerous to others, or because they are just in it for the money, plently of people get in and shouldn't be there. Or maybe I'm just a cry baby whose mad at the world...

If you read through this post and don't give a crap, I'm sorry you read through my little rant. But if you have any thoughts, please share, I'd love to hear what other have to say, whether they agree or disagree with me.

And if you believe in that sort of thing, say a prayer for the victim and her family.

So you're pissed because Ali was accepted and you weren't? Perhaps you weren't accepted because you have a severe lack of empathy.

 

[synapse lapse]

As a Jefferson student, I have had the chance to talk to students and faculty who knew both students. Surprisingly enough, people have shown so much sympathy for both the victim AND the attacker, because he honestly seemed to have suffered a severe mental illness that completely reversed his behavior. People who knew him from school only had kind things to say, and genuinely seemed shocked that he had done this. From what I can gather, he was genuinely interested in helping people, was a very spiritual person, and honestly liked his classmates. So please don't question his motivation for going into medicine, and please don't assume that his resolve wasn't strong enough to withstand the stresses of med school. For one thing, we will probably never really know why he attacked her, and secondly, from what people have told me, those two assumptions are not true.

While it seems easy to say that you would have rushed in to help a woman who was being beaten in front of your eyes, many people didn't really know what was going on - some people said that they thought that he was just hitting the sidewalk. I'm sure that what happened did happen fast, and it's just fortunate that they could at least get the car's licensce plate number.

Give me a break. Mental Illness doesn't appear overnight, and I doubt that he just went crazy one day and beat a poor girl to death with a goddamn bat. It was obviously premeditated (ski mask, bat, middle of street) so he had thought about it before hand. He should have seeked help for his anger management problem (as another poster said he had a history of assault problems) and his homicidal thoughts. Don't tell us not to question his motivation to go into medicine on the grounds that he came of as a nice, caring person and was 'spiritual'. For one, serial killers are notorious for being well liked by their friends, always "he was the last one I'd suspect" and spirituality, well just give me a break (read: crusades, inquisition, middle east, any number of religious conflicts). The fact is that he killed someone with a F@#%@#% baseball bat, premeditated, and that all the sorry people standing around watching have no excuse. Sit at your computer and time 15 seconds, that is quite a while to watch someone being beat to death. Yeah, he honestly liked his classmates, enough to sit and plan to beat one of them to death, and to follow through with it. We do know why he killed her, he was Fu@#!@# insane and should have seeked help.

 

[sstache1]

So you're pissed because Ali was accepted and you weren't? Perhaps you weren't accepted because you have a severe lack of empathy.

Appearently you don't read very well because I said I feel that this was a terrible incident and my heart really goes out to those involved.

Regarding this guy getting in to med school, my point simply was that there are people in med school who don't deserve to be there, this was one example, and an extreme one at that. And as it was satated in eariler posts, there was no way of knowing that this guy would go off the deep end.

And furthermore, I also said that only part of me is being cynical. How would you feel if you know didn't get into med school yuor 1st time around. If you say it wouldn't bother you at all, your full of sh!@. Perhaps you lack the empathy to understand what it's like to have to apply again.

BUT, so it it nice and clear for you, I feel terrible that this happened, and I have said numerous prayers for the victim and her family. OH but I'm sorry, I don't have any empathy so I guess I probably woudn't care enough to pray for others, right?

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

 

[irie]

Appearently you don't read very well because I said I feel that this was a terrible incident and my heart really goes out to those involved.

I read well enough to see through your little "i feel badly this happened" disclaimer/ moral loophole. That disclaimer is almost as bad as the "i just call 'em like I see 'em" disclaimer which usually serves to indicate that the person has just said something beyond idiotic but doesn't want to claim responsibility for the back assward thinking that created the comment.

Regarding this guy getting in to med school, my point simply was that there are people in med school who don't deserve to be there, this was one example, and an extreme one at that. And as it was satated in eariler posts, there was no way of knowing that this guy would go off the deep end.

You used a murder as an opportunity to bitch about someone who got in while you didn't. There really isn't any good way to spin that but you get an E for effort.

And furthermore, I also said that only part of me is being cynical. How would you feel if you know didn't get into med school yuor 1st time around. If you say it wouldn't bother you at all, your full of sh!@. Perhaps you lack the empathy to understand what it's like to have to apply again.

Only PART of you is cynical? What the hell does that mean?

Anyway, as for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sentences in this paragraph, you are right. I would feel crappy if I didn't get in the first time around. However, I already know of the reasons I might not get in this round. None of those reasons have anything to do with somebody else, whom I feel is less qualified, getting in and taking MY spot. I won't be passing the buck if I don't get accepted.

BUT, so it it nice and clear for you, I feel terrible that this happened, and I have said numerous prayers for the victim and her family. OH but I'm sorry, I don't have any empathy so I guess I probably woudn't care enough to pray for others, right?

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

blame not, lest ye be blamed.


just so you know, you sound like you're more upset that the guy took your med school spot than you are that he killed someone.

 

[sstache1]

I read well enough to see through your little "i feel badly this happened" disclaimer/ moral loophole. That disclaimer is almost as bad as the "i just call 'em like I see 'em" disclaimer which usually serves to indicate that the person has just said something beyond idiotic but doesn't want to claim responsibility for the back assward thinking that created the comment.



You used a murder as an opportunity to bitch about someone who got in while you didn't. There really isn't any good way to spin that but you get an E for effort.




Only PART of you is cynical? What the hell does that mean?

Anyway, as for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sentences in this paragraph, you are right. I would feel crappy if I didn't get in the first time around. However, I already know of the reasons I might not get in this round. None of those reasons have anything to do with somebody else, whom I feel is less qualified, getting in and taking MY spot. I won't be passing the buck if I don't get accepted.



blame not, lest ye be blamed.


just so you know, you sound like you're more upset that the guy took your med school spot than you are that he killed someone.

Now I'm upset about someone like you who misinterprets an opinion which I have every right to state. I never said that this guy took "my" spot. And as far as my "disclaimer" it's is easy for you to sit there from whatever high and mighty position you think you have and judge me for starting a discussion about a horrible event and one thought I happened to have as a result.

And for that matter, I knew from the beginning that I was just complaining out loud. Excuse me for being jaded AND upset that some guy went nuts and killed an innocent person and I happened to combine a few thoughts into a thread post.

I guess I should have known better than to create this thread under this forum...

But I don't hate, I hope you get into med school. I don't judge and I shouldn't argue. You will hear nothing more from me on this matter.

 

[jdovez]

Give me a break. Mental Illness doesn't appear overnight, and I doubt that he just went crazy one day .

Actually you are incorrect. Mental illness, especially schizophrenia very well may appear overnight. There are sometimes small personality changes that precipitate it, but it is quite common for the disease to quickly manifest (I know from personal experience with a schizophrenic). It can also be induced through taking certain hallucigenic drugs (such as LSD) given their impact on dopamine receptors. In any event, your post highlights the problem we have in our society of invalidating mental illness. There are many types that take many forms, unfortunately it seems to be taboo to really learn about and discuss these type of diseases. It can not be poo pooed away by saying it doesnt happen that quickly and he was just angry. In fact if you read up on this previous "assault" it was something many of us may have tried. (had people at his house for a party, they wouldnt leave so he started to try to make them leave).

 

[synapse lapse]

Actually you are incorrect. Mental illness, especially schizophrenia very well may appear overnight. There are sometimes small personality changes that precipitate it, but it is quite common for the disease to quickly manifest (I know from personal experience with a schizophrenic). It can also be induced through taking certain hallucigenic drugs (such as LSD) given their impact on dopamine receptors. In any event, your post highlights the problem we have in our society of invalidating mental illness. There are many types that take many forms, unfortunately it seems to be taboo to really learn about and discuss these type of diseases. It can not be poo pooed away by saying it doesnt happen that quickly and he was just angry. In fact if you read up on this previous "assault" it was something many of us may have tried. (had people at his house for a party, they wouldnt leave so he started to try to make them leave).

First off, the guy most likely wasn't schizophrenic, at least there is no reason to believe he was. And while some mental illnesses may express themselves suddenly, there are almost always warning signs, and as a medical student he should have been aware of them. In addition, if he was on a drug (something I almost put in my post but didn't), it certainly in no way excuses his actions, as he would have made a choice to take said illegal substance. Either way, we certainly have no reason to believe that he was under the influence by simply reading the article. And in regards to your saying that my post "highlights the problem we have in our society of invalidating mental illness" this is simply absurd. As a matter of fact, I mentioned that he should have recognized any warning signs and especially given his chosen path in life, should have seeked help for his problem (thus validating mental health as an important and vital component to overall wellbeing, as well as establishing a mental illness as a real illness). I did not in any way treat mental health as taboo, I simply said that it was not an excuse for his actions, and that the poster whom I quoted was wrong in defending him.

 

[MadameLULU]

First off, the guy most likely wasn't schizophrenic, at least there is no reason to believe he was.

Why make assumptions? Based on what is reported in the newspaper articles and hearsay, none us in pre-allo are qualified to diagnose him or assume he is or isn't schizophrenic.

 

[i61164]

Let this be a lesson to all of us. If you see someone brandishing a baseball bat on the street, do not hesitate to jump on the SOB.

When 9/11 happened, people on two of the planes were too scared to put a stop to the hijacking. Thank God for the heroes on that third plane. If somebody tries to hijack a plane now, you can bet your a$$ that at least 10 passengers are gonna beat the crap out of them.

It is better to die a heroes death than to see innocent people victimized. If only we could convince people to be vigilant on the streets the way they have become vigilant on airplanes...

 

[lightnk102]

we've got a regular peanut gallery over here. as someone else pointed out - it's easy to see what should have been done, now that it's happened and we're looking back on it. wouldn't it be nice if we all stopped being so judgmental? blaming the bystanders for not doing anything, blaming the medical schools for letting someone in, blaming each other?

aren't we all so know-it-all? us little premeds? obviously if we had been there, it would've happened differently.

 

[Dr Turninkoff]

Let this be a lesson to all of us. If you see someone brandishing a baseball bat on the street, do not hesitate to jump on the SOB.

When 9/11 happened, people on two of the planes were too scared to put a stop to the hijacking. Thank God for the heroes on that third plane. If somebody tries to hijack a plane now, you can bet your a$$ that at least 10 passengers are gonna beat the crap out of them.

It is better to die a heroes death than to see innocent people victimized. If only we could convince people to be vigilant on the streets the way they have become vigilant on airplanes...

It wasn't about being too scared to stop the highjackings. Before 9/11, people were told specifically not to play the hero in hostage/hijacking situations. The only reason people on the third plane did anything was because they were told via cell phone what had happened with the other two planes. It's incredibly unfair to call people on the first two planes "too scared to put a stop to the highjacking".

 

[mshheaddoc]

we've got a regular peanut gallery over here. as someone else pointed out - it's easy to see what should have been done, now that it's happened and we're looking back on it. wouldn't it be nice if we all stopped being so judgmental? blaming the bystanders for not doing anything, blaming the medical schools for letting someone in, blaming each other?

aren't we all so know-it-all? us little premeds? obviously if we had been there, it would've happened differently.

Another voice of reason ... thank god . I wonder if they were there and the guy had a gun as well what would have been done I could wonder alot of stuff, but we weren't there. End of discussion. Less than 15 secs fly by quick. Hindsight is a bitch. Ok I'm done with this thread .... again.

 

[i61164]

It wasn't about being too scared to stop the highjackings. Before 9/11, people were told specifically not to play the hero in hostage/hijacking situations. The only reason people on the third plane did anything was because they were told via cell phone what had happened with the other two planes. It's incredibly unfair to call people on the first two planes "too scared to put a stop to the highjacking".

Maybe you are right. I have never heard that you are not supposed to "play the hero." I know that with car hijackings it is almost always a bad idea to play along with the hijacker. They will just drive you out to the middle of nowhere and kill you. Anyway, if the passengers were under the impression that it was a bad idea to "play the hero" then I stand corrected.

Anyway, my point is that as a result of 9/11 there has been a positive reaction by the American people. There have been a couple of incidents since 9/11 where passengers have tackled somebody on an airplane. People have started looking out for one another. I lived in NYC on 9/11 and I saw total strangers helping one another.

I don't know exactly what happened on South street. Maybe nobody was close enough, blah, blah, blah. Maybe I would have been paralyzed with fear if I was there. If so, then I disgust myself.

 

[DrYo12]

When you're in an acutely emerging situation, we'd like to think we'll be swift on our feet, but you don't actually know how you'll respond. End of story. You weren't there, they were and the whole situation is a tragedy.

Lots of love to the family of the victim and thoughts of healing to the person committing the crime.