Job market for dentists?

[ULTRON]

Hi,

How is the job market for dentists? I mean, is it easy to get a job?

Are dental specialists in demand? I want to be a dental surgeon....would this be a wise choice? Or should I stick to general dentistry?

thanks

ULTRON

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[aphistis]

General dentistry IS surgery, bub. Extractions, cavity/crown preps, implants, any sort of invasive procedure falls under the umbrella of surgery.

Having said that, if you're wanting to do direct mandible manipulation to realign someone's occlusion...well, OMS is the way to go.

Finally, the job market for dentists is booming right now. They're retiring almost twice as fast as dental schools are cranking us out.

 

[NDBeast]

Also, Ultron, don't forget that the degree a dentist receives is a "Doctor of Dental Surgery."

 

[completedenture]

in French, they call a dentist, a " surgeon dentist"

 

[kent100s78]

yea but why are genral dentist salaries low, i see the u.s. avg. at 80k a year to a max of 110k a year. when you consider that you owe 200k once you finshed dental school whit those salries would'nt it be hard to pay those loans. if you dont specialize you really dont make money. please correct me if im wrong this what i learned from reading in this forum, i dont know much yet about dentistry im considering going to dental school, so any info will help. thanks

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by kent100s78
yea but why are genral dentist salaries low, i see the u.s. avg. at 80k a year to a max of 110k a year.

Let's just say that those figures are laughable, at best. The average is more likely around $120,000 a year, with the max (a true and normal max, not some outlandish figure) being $200-220,000 a year.

That 80k number MIGHT be from a dentist who just opened a practice, and reported the number in his first few months.

You gotta remember that the average US income is $45,000 a year. We're talking 3-5 times that if you do general dentistry.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

A general dentist can make 45K a year or 330K a year (I know people in both situations). It all depends on how much you want to work and where you work.

If you are an excellent dentist with good business knowledge, 200k is not far fetched, but you will work.

A dentist makes only what he produces with his hands so its all up to you how much you want to make.

With the 80K avg you mention...not to sure about that. Last I heard avg was around $110-120K or so.

Go to www.dentaltown.com and ask this question and you will get a far better response since those members are actual dentists.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Hey gavin, sorry to repeat some stuff but your post wasn't there when I pushed reply...oh well. Love your stuff so keep it coming

 

[ULTRON]

Thanks for the reply guys.

By "dental surgeon" I mean specialists who spend 4 years in residency compared to "general dentists" who spend about 1 year in residency - they cannot perform complicated surgery themselves.

Is there a demand for "dental surgeons"s?

ULTRON

 

[kent100s78]

again i apologize this is what i saw on salry.com and other similar sites thanks for the info.


ItsGavinC i see you attend in az. dental school, can you tell a lil about it, cause i am really considering there school in another year hopefully. im lived in az before for a while and really know my way around. can you tell how you feel about there program is it really demanding compared to others and how is there sheduale and facilities and so on..

 

[ItsGavinC]

Sure! If you go to the "Pre-Dental" forum you can find a topic I created called "My Arizona Experience". I'm sure you can find all the information you'd like, and more, there.

It's so long that I felt it was probably annoying people, so I've stopped posting to it for a while.

 

[kent100s78]

wow!!!!! gavin i have to give you much respect. for finding time to post and do all the hard work you are doing. but since you r married can you tell me how hard is it on your wife being in school all day cause i am married and am concerned about the amount of time one has to put in school while there wifes are at home alone and being a jealou guy that i am makes it worse lol (kidding)

also would you say being a bio. major would make my first year easiar than compared to your eng. or you think it doesnt matter. and may i ask how old you are cause my plan is to matriculate with a school, i would be probably 28 when i do this and feel i might be a lil old for this.

 

[anamod]

Kent, I'm a second year dental student and my wife is a first year dental student and we have a 5 year old daughter. We have plenty of time outside of school. I personally start studying about 2 days before a test, but most of the time it's the night before. Now you have to keep in mind that I really could give a rip about my grades. I still maintain above a 3.0 which is fine with me. I have yet to bring my bag home this semester. This is just my opinion and how I go about it. I personally would rather spend the night with my family and friends than read a microbiology chapter. Everyone has their own style of learning and every school is different. If I went to Arizona with Gavin it seems that they have test more often than we do so I would have to study a little more often. This is just my style and how I approach school.

 

[NDBeast]

Wow! What school do you go to??? That sounds too good to be true.

 

[anamod]

If you are asking me it's the U oMN

 

[anamod]

It's all in your approach to school and grades. I'm sure there are people in my class that would tell you that they study every night for 2-3 hours and that dental school is extremely grueling. Those are also the ones that usually get the higher scores in the class. i choose to make it a little less grueling and have some fun while i'm young and enjoy my daughter as she grows up. If you want a dentist prospective on the subject go to Dentaltown.com and look in the forum under Dental school and read some the comments that practicing dentists have to say about school and real world dentistry.

 

[LestatZinnie]

man...i envy you.....i'm in my first year and i intended to take it easy too, but then the school decided to give me a scholarship so now i feel compelled to maintain my grades so i can renew it...and maybe get that rolex i've been eyeing for a while

anyway...i dunno about ur school curriculum but at my school there is no way you can survive without studying everyday. we spend the first 18months with med students though.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by anamod
I personally start studying about 2 days before a test, but most of the time it's the night before. Now you have to keep in mind that I really could give a rip about my grades. I still maintain above a 3.0 which is fine with me. I have yet to bring my bag home this semester....This is just my style and how I approach school.

I'm with you. I tend to leave school at school. Since our exams are biweekly (every second Friday), the routine exception is that I'll spend Mon/Tues/Wed studying maybe 90 minutes a night, and then hit the driving range Thursday (or something similarly relaxing) Thursday before a light final go-round. Right now, I'd say I'm in the 3.0-3.25 range. I'm aiming to land a GPR if possible, and I'll adjust my habits if necessary after this first semester. Bottom line, dental school is just another set of lecture halls; it's nothing we haven't all done for 17 years prior, and certainly nothing to freak out about.

 

[anamod]

Amen Bill, I just seems that a great deal of my classmates are so stressed out about grades. They really don't realize that good grades does not mean that you will be a good dentist. I see these students spending hours upon hours on single crown preps, just so they can get a better grade. I'm sorry but taking typodont teeth out and replacing them and trying again just so you can get a better grade is in my book sad. It's different to redo one after grading to sharpen your skills, in real life you can't take your mistakes out the patients mouth and retry. Our pros. prof. said it's better to had in a piece of junk the first time, than something you spent days working on, as long as you know why it's a piece of junk. Like you said it's just like before it's just another set of lecture halls, it's just to bad there are few like us who realize this.

 

[ItsGavinC]

You fellas also have to recognize that some people thrive upon stressing about their grades.

It is what motivates them, and what has gotten them where they are today.

For some of them it probably sucks and they wish they could give it up. There are always some who really enjoy it, however.

 

[aphistis]

Oh, absolutely, Gavin. I'm not disputing that in the slightest. Some people thrive on that sort of thing; I'm not slighting them in the least. I was simply referring to the ones who've been shortening their lives since freshman year of college by spazzing out over their ability to complete tasks they're easily qualified for--college, first, and now dental school.

A lot of people in grad/professional school would be a LOT happier, if they could only take the occasional leap of faith to realize the universe *does* continue on below the 90th national percentile No hard feelings against anybody; this is just another opinion, and your mileage, as always, may vary considerably.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by kent100s78
yea but why are genral dentist salaries low, i see the u.s. avg. at 80k a year to a max of 110k a year. when you consider that you owe 200k once you finshed dental school whit those salries would'nt it be hard to pay those loans. if you dont specialize you really dont make money. please correct me if im wrong this what i learned from reading in this forum, i dont know much yet about dentistry im considering going to dental school, so any info will help. thanks

Look at it from a physician's point of view. Physicians also have 200K in debt yet no one questions whether they made the right choice.

General dentists don't do residency. So unlike physicians, you don't have to wallow in 3 years of residency after graduation. You can pay off a huge chunk of your student loan in 3 years earning 110K per year.

And the types of physicians who undergo 3 years of residency earn salaries comparable to general dentists. Family practice doctors and pediatricians earn money in the 100-130K range. These aren't your cosmetic surgeons, urologists, cardiologists, opthamologists radiologists and others who endure 5-9 years of residency. In other words, the big money makers in medicine do the most residency. And residency pays nothing. Most physicians defer their student loans since their 35K salary is used to simply afford their living expenses.

You can earn at least 100K coming out of dental school if you choose your location and job opportunity well. You can earn between 100-130K out of dental school. You don't have to live in Southern California right out of dental school which is managed care heaven.

You aren't going to starve being a dentist. These fears are really overated. Unlike having a job in the IT field, they aren't going to outsource your job to India and fire you. The difference between health care jobs and other jobs is that dentists and doctors can move to a small town and earn more money than in large cities. However, information technology, law and other business related jobs are limited to urban areas. This is why so many people are unemployed in non-health related jobs. They are confined to one area. If an IT guy gets layed off in Atlanta, he has to compete with thousands of others for jobs in Atlanta or another major city that has those jobs. He can't just move to Lubbock Texas and find a business development job. The IT guy can't merely drive to the suburbs and find a higher paying job with less competition. Some of the highest paid dentists live in po dunk towns. I'm sure they aren't thrilled with their surroundings but when you are earning 300K +, they aren't complaining too much. Dentists will always have this option. The problem is that you have dentists come out of school. They want to move to San Diego because its beautifull. And then they complain when they earn 80k instead of the 110K they expected. It's usually these same naive dentists who failed to account for competition, managed care and the cost of living into their equation.

 

[kent100s78]

well what would you say of the job market in nyc. everywhere i turn i see dentist on every corner, is there enough buisness for a genral dentist in nyc. i dont know much about dentistry that is why i ask these questions so i may learn more into what im getting into.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I'm with you Bill, and agree with your post 100% (as usual).

 

[ItsGavinC]

kent,

if there are dentists on every corner, then it probably isn't a good job market!

Here's a more general scoop: just because there are dentists on every corner does NOT mean everybody has a dentist!

So, there are still plenty of patients out there, but you've got to get them into your office.

 

[UBTom]

There are plenty of jobs in New York City for newly graduated dentists... You can land an associateship pretty easily. I have not seen starting salaries below $80K/yr for a new full-time dentist in NYC.

My sister landed an associateship right after she finished her GPR training at Bellevue in 2001, started with $100K/yr (the arrangement was 33% of her production) and is now earning much more than that.

As long as you have marketable skills, in New York City you won't starve for lack of jobs.

 

[NDBeast]

Originally posted by ULTRON
Thanks for the reply guys.

By "dental surgeon" I mean specialists who spend 4 years in residency compared to "general dentists" who spend about 1 year in residency - they cannot perform complicated surgery themselves.

Is there a demand for "dental surgeons"s?

ULTRON

Ok, just say "specialist" instead of "dental surgeon," since that's what you mean.
Dentists CAN go into residency if they want to, but most don't. Dentists interested in becoming specialists have to go to extra school for 2-3 years. Specialists typically earn more money than general dentists.
There is demand for all fields of dentistry, if I am not mistaken.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by kent100s78
well what would you say of the job market in nyc. everywhere i turn i see dentist on every corner, is there enough buisness for a genral dentist in nyc. i dont know much about dentistry that is why i ask these questions so i may learn more into what im getting into.

Dentists aren't employed by hospitals. Nearly every dentist works in private practice in some capacity. That is why you see a dentist office on every corner. We don't have one large hospital that employs a 40 physicians. 4000 dentists graduate per year compared to 20,000 doctors.

Yes, NYC is a saturated market, but it's a saturated market for everyone including doctors. If you are going to live in NYC, San Francisco, downtown Chicago etc, you will be taking a hit as far as salary is concerned. That's the price you pay for living in downtown.

 

[NDBeast]

Originally posted by mcataz
Dentists aren't employed by hospitals.

The hospital in my city has its own dental department. Rarely do you ever see this!

 

[PashaJ]

You can live in NYC but practice in CT since there's a need there and you get the best of both worlds.

 

[UBTom]

Well, both NDBeast and MCataz are partly right...

Dentists ARE indeed employed at hospitals, but usually only as part-time attendings.

The dentists who are employed full-time at hospitals have either a teaching or administrative position (like the director for a General Practice Residency program).

I agree with PashaJ-- Plenty of dental associateships abound in the greater NYC area. Westchester and the Connecticut panhandle are nice, so is northern Jersey. I'm looking at Long Island myself actually.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by UBTom
Well, both NDBeast and MCataz are partly right...

Dentists ARE indeed employed at hospitals, but usually only as part-time attendings.

The dentists who are employed full-time at hospitals have either a teaching or administrative position (like the director for a General Practice Residency program).

I don't think this is quite accurate. There are usually several hospitals in each state that employ anywhere from 3-10 pediatric dentists.

 

[UBTom]

Sorry Gavin, I forgot to include one qualifier-- General dentists, I meant to type.

But while we are at it, other specialties have full-time presence at hospitals too-- Prosthodontists at the VA hospitals, and of course oral surgeons are everywhere..

But general dentists... Usually attendings.

 

[NDBeast]

Originally posted by UBTom

But general dentists... Usually attendings.

I guess the hospital in my city is rare, because it employs ~5 general dentists and a few specialists full-time. My mom is one of those general dentists.
But you are right - rarely anyone I've met has ever heard of a dentist working at a hospital.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Tom,

I know. You're always on top of things.

 

[blankguy]

Originally posted by aphistis
General dentistry IS surgery, bub. Extractions, cavity/crown preps, implants, any sort of invasive procedure falls under the umbrella of surgery.

Having said that, if you're wanting to do direct mandible manipulation to realign someone's occlusion...well, OMS is the way to go.

Finally, the job market for dentists is booming right now. They're retiring almost twice as fast as dental schools are cranking us out.

I don't get the part about retiring dentists. Is that because in the past there was a growth spurt in the number of dentists? Or is it just the way the labor market happened to work out with a lot of dentists choosing to retire at the same time by coincidence? Also what do you think is inducing dentist to retire in greater rate than people joining the ranks of dentistry?

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by blankguy
I don't get the part about retiring dentists. Is that because in the past there was a growth spurt in the number of dentists? Or is it just the way the labor market happened to work out with a lot of dentists choosing to retire at the same time by coincidence? Also what do you think is inducing dentist to retire in greater rate than people joining the ranks of dentistry?

Two words: baby boomers. They're the biggest single demographic group out there, and they're all hitting retirement at about the same time. Once the baby boomers leave the workforce, the dentist/population ratio will reequilibriate. It works out great for us, though

 

[lealf-ye]

At the time baby boomers went to dental school, did the schools accepted more students? If the schools have always accepted similar numbers of students, even baby boomers are retiring, there won't be too much of them.

 

[NDBeast]

Originally posted by lealf-ye
At the time baby boomers went to dental school, did the schools accepted more students? If the schools have always accepted similar numbers of students, even baby boomers are retiring, there won't be too much of them.

Yes. There used to be a lot more dental schools than there are now. Also, their admissions requirements were not nearly as tough as they are now.

 

[ULTRON]

Well thanks guys.

I'm an electrical engineer who meets all the premed requirements. I got a job as an engineer and got laid off 2 times !!! (Only because I was young....some oldies got to stay)

I've decided to give up this dead/dying field forever. I'm only 24 so I can get into dental school....dentistry is a good field even in a bad economy.....after all, people fall sick all the time.

ULTRON

 

[PashaJ]

That's weird, I thought they normally can the oldies before the young ones because you guys work cheaper and faster.

 

[ULTRON]

You're right...but if the oldie has been working in the company for like 30 years...he gets to stay. But everyone with less than about 5 years experience - whether old or young - get laid off is anything goes wrong with the market.

It was good to get engineer jobs back in the 60s and 70s.

ULTRON

 

[FMLizard]

Let's put it this way. If you get about 80K your first day, and pay off 20K per year on your loans, which is an aggressive payment plan, you still will be making the equivalent of about 50-55K. This is about a worst case scenario. Good luck making this at age 26 or so doing anything else in the new Indian and Chinese offshore world that is our future.

Dental schools had about 6,000 grads each year from 1965 to 1985 or so. Now, about 4000 graduate. In 2007, when this class graduates, the youngest dentists who graduated at 26 in 1965 will be 68. Everyone from '65 to '73 will be over 60, as well as those who started a little later or retired early.

This will always ensure jobs for everyone. New schools can't open because demand is strong enough that professors don't want to leave private practice because it is a major pay cut.

 

[Tabstar]

Yeah I can relate to you Ultron. I also did my Mech Eng degree and got laid off after one year...The oil/gas market just plummeted in 1998 during the Asian financial crisis. Anyways I started at another company and since the overall US economy isn't doing well I am expecting for another layoff round by the end of this year. Hopefully they will offer voluntary severance packages because I am planning to go back to school full time this upcoming spring anyways. It's true that engineers make the highest salaries with only a bachelor's but there is lots more competition in the job market and jobs are constantly being outsourced to foreign countries as well as foreigners. No offense to immigrants because I come from a family of immigrants but generally they are willing to work for less in exchange for the green card. Engineering does not have a lot of safeguards to limit entry into the profession and reduce competition in the job market. Well that's just my 2 cents...I am planning on going into the dental field soon enough...i'd rather be competing to get in than to be competing for jobs when I get out!

 

[ULTRON]

I agree with you Tabstar.

With all the outsourcing going, it's better to get a job Asia. The market for engineers will go down in the furture...after all, all the big companies like Motorola, Lucent, HP are down in the pits.

It annoys me when people claim that "engineering is a growing field"



ULTRON

 

[devildoc2]

Originally posted by mcataz
Look at it from a physician's point of view. Physicians also have 200K in debt yet no one questions whether they made the right choice.

What? Are you kidding?

Of course people question physicians on whether they made the right choice or not!

General dentists don't do residency. So unlike physicians, you don't have to wallow in 3 years of residency after graduation. You can pay off a huge chunk of your student loan in 3 years earning 110K per year.

Residency is not "wallowing" it is some of the most informative years of a doctors life. Ask any doctor about residency and they will tell you it was absolutely foundational to their career.

They may complain about the hours and workload, but if you ask them if they got a lot out of it, 100% of them will give a strong affirmation of that and tell you that it was in residency where they really learned how to be doctors.

 

[NDBeast]

Originally posted by devildoc2
Residency is not "wallowing" it is some of the most informative years of a doctors life. Ask any doctor about residency and they will tell you it was absolutely foundational to their career.

They may complain about the hours and workload, but if you ask them if they got a lot out of it, 100% of them will give a strong affirmation of that and tell you that it was in residency where they really learned how to be doctors.

Yep. Residency is what teaches a doctor to be a doctor.

 

[Neon Black]

FMLizard nailed it.

 

[Neon Black]

Especially the first paragraph cause I"m in a major right now that's getting outsourced to the far east like crazy.

 

[groundhog]

Amen Neon Black,
The world economic paradigm is now global capitalism (corporateocracy) which creates a lot of dislocations (personal heartaches) on the way to equalibrium (everyone's boat rises/falls equally with the world economic tide). As long as this pardigm exists the ultimate goal will be to accumulate enough wealth so that one can receive a level of income from that wealth which will perpetually support a chosen lifestyle for oneself and family/heirs. So, accumulating said necessary wealth is where the competition will be greatest. That is where one has to be wise. If one chooses a stratedgy of accumulating that wealth by "legal work" then it would be wise to choose a field of work which not only has difficult gates of entry (higly competitive educational pathways), but which is also economically difficult to export/import.