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Job options with an MD (without residency)

Discussion in 'General Residency Issues' started by jules777, 09.14.06.

  1. jules777

    jules777 Junior Member

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    Hi,

    Just wondering if there are any jobs out there that would take a new graduate from med school. Are consulting jobs and administrative jobs available to MDs without residency training? I'm considering not doing a residency and getting a "normal" job.

    Thanks for the help.
     
  2. colbgw02

    colbgw02 Delightfully Tacky

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    insurance companies and a research position are two that come to mind.
     
  3. DiveMD

    DiveMD Giggity giggity!!!

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    Join the military and hang out in Iraq...
     
  4. ForbiddenComma

    ForbiddenComma Tanned for Bowling

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    you could jockey with all the pharmD's for a drug rep position
     
  5. Mirror Form

    Mirror Form Thyroid Storm

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    In order to get a good job that in some way utilizes your MD, you'll probably have to do internship so that you can be licensed in medicine. Medicine is really a five year degree (med school plus internship). Just an MD is somewhat useless.
     
  6. aredoubleyou

    aredoubleyou Senior Member

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    Good advice, obviously someone who knows what he's talking about. There's a good amount of bad jobs for MDs w/out at least an internship, but the major consulting firms and wall street knows better. Find the easiest transitional year you can and apply for jobs.

    Also beware of the allure of having a "normal job." 9 to 5 sounds really great, but your daily efforts can seem meaningless when the only difference you make is increasing some company's profits. Also head out to business prior to residency and you'l have a hard time returning to medicine.

    And one last thing, get a job as an MD in a consulting company or wall street - you aint gunna get paid big bucks for working 9to5, expect variable hours, working well over 40 hours routinely - but altogether a more predictable daily lifestyle than many people in medicine
     
  7. ekydrd

    ekydrd Senior Member

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    Why on earth would you want to go so deeply in to debt then NOT do a residency so that you could earn enough to pay those humongous student loans? Baffling!!!:confused:
     
  8. napoleondynamite

    napoleondynamite Chief Resident

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    probably because an MD degree from a US school is the most powerful set of initials that could follow anyone's name in the entire world..and would open up doors in ANY field, be it law, business, politics or medicine.. That's just a guess though.

    People, why do we have to feel "baffled" anytime anyone inquires about alternate career paths, salary, lifestyle, etc? This moral elitist attitude that we should all devote ourselves to eternal suffering for the good of humanity, and ask no questions about the future or what our options are..that is what is BAFFLING to me. :rolleyes:
     
  9. secretwave101

    secretwave101 Senior Member

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    I agree with the "useless" opinion. I took a year off and expected a good-paying job with pharma or consulting or in research or something. I had e-commerce experience, pretty solid research experience - clinical and bench - and a partial MPH to go along with my MD.

    I ended up working on-call (meaning no benefits, just hours I could pick up) as a tech in a tiny community ED. They wouldn't even let me do IV's. Oh, and I made 15 bucks/hour. Probably made about 22k/year.

    It really sucked.

    I'm sure there are others who can do better - better interviewing skills, better networking, better looking, better job markets...whatever. But the whole MD and "powerful" thing definitely passed me by.

    Now I'm in residency, pulling in a solid 40k, very good benefits for me and my family and I feel fortunate. I've finally got a real job.

    So, if you decide to test the professional waters...I recommend that you NOT BURN BRIDGES back to medicine. You may find that the greenest pastures were the ones you left.
     
  10. medicineman1

    medicineman1

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    hey secret wave, are you still in olympia, washington if you dont mind my asking?
     
  11. secretwave101

    secretwave101 Senior Member

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    Still am. Just got up here this past July for PGY-1 year.

    Diggin' it. Cool place.
     
  12. ronin8

    ronin8 Junior Member

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    i'm feeling the same way as the original poster. after starting internship, i'm no longer interested in medicine, yet i'm so much in debt it's depressing. it's like a trap
     
  13. johnthestreak

    johnthestreak master of disaster

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  14. madcadaver

    madcadaver Senior Member

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    The OP is apparently suggesting that he/she does not want to practice medicine, so it would be pretty stupid to waste another year in clinical training to become licensed to do so.
     
  15. dockdock

    dockdock Member

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    A career change is a career change. Saying that there are limited career options for an MD outside of clinical medicine is short-sighted. There are more than enough people out there with minimal educations who achieve a level of success few ever will.

    If you don't want to stay in clinical medicine, then don't stay. But remember, there is no easy path to success, no matter how you define success.
     
  16. medicineman1

    medicineman1

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    anyone know of an MD/DO who has worked for medtronics? Looking for work while switching residency positions.
     
  17. Mirror Form

    Mirror Form Thyroid Storm

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    No, it would be stupid to finish 4 years out of a 5 year degree and then stop. Once you get licensed, there are better business opportunities available (whether you want to practice clinical medicine or not). Whereas, just an MD provides zero marketable skills.

    BTW, to the OP: if you don't like clinical medicine, rads and path are always options. Remember, in the real world, work isn't supposed to be fun (unlike what they tell you in med school). So don't think that you're going to go into law or marketing, and suddenly find your job fulfilling and entertaining.
     
  18. prominence

    prominence Senior Member

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    Can you please throw some options out there?
     
  19. Mirror Form

    Mirror Form Thyroid Storm

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    You're more likely to get hired by an insurance company or big pharma if you're licensed to practice medicine. Lots of research will require MD's to be involved. But w/o a license to practice medicine, you're of absolutely no value in many situations.
     
  20. prominence

    prominence Senior Member

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    how would a insurance company utilize a licensed physician's abilities?
     
  21. radonc

    radonc Senior Member

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    i heard McD's has some openings...with a fastrack to the highly coveted position of manager...
     
  22. 21JumpStreet

    21JumpStreet Senior Member

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    There are research opportunities in the field of biology, microbiology, biotechnology, biochemistry, etc. You would also have the background to do clinical research instead of just bench research.

    I remember as a pre-med we had an MD in our research lab that did not want to practice. He worked as a research associate. He did well and has been there for many years.
     
  23. RxnMan

    RxnMan Who, me? A doctor? Moderator Emeritus

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    By assessing worker's comp claims.
     
  24. sepsis

    sepsis Member

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    it may not be just another year for licensure. The req's for applying vary state to state and many req not 1 but 2 years before you can apply - it's worth checking it out beforehand.
     
  25. LADoc00

    LADoc00 Best Job I Ever Had.

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    Undergrad in science, got an MS after I (luckily) bailed out of the PhD at a MSTP program and now got 3 board certifications under my belt.

    My feeling is medicine is going to get very very bad in the future, especially when you look at the avalanche of baby boomers retiring and being funneled through ever shrinking entitlement programs. Socialized medicine is almost inevitable, if for no other reason to keep the whole system afloat. MD salaries will fall through the floor.

    Are you questioning why the hell you are busting your ass probably making someone else (likely an admin type) rich??

    I do, everyday.

    Slowly, Im transitioning out of medicine and into a more entrepreneurial roll. Yes, there is more risk, but there is a HUGE risk in being the last rat on the sinking healthcare ship as well!!

    Think of medicine as merely your street creds, youve proved you are intelligent and can work. You can convert it to almost anything: management, finance, hospital admin, small biz, consulting, anything really.
     
  26. LADoc00

    LADoc00 Best Job I Ever Had.

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    denials, its called resource utilization. Basically you sit there and say that 7 year old didnt really need her tonsils out and your company wont cover it. HUGE money in doing this. And doesnt hold much water unless a real MD has reviewed it.
     
  27. aredoubleyou

    aredoubleyou Senior Member

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    Close. MD at an insurance companies are involved in setting policies, not often reviewing claims that haven't been appealed at least once. Let me rephrase, justifying policies set based on cost analysis and decision tree analysis. Pretty much you get to be scum of the earth. And I haven't heard of the money being all that huge actually.
     
  28. Faebinder

    Faebinder Slow Wave Smurf

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    how much... cause i am wondering why *or better worded 'for how much'* would someone sell their soul?
     
  29. aredoubleyou

    aredoubleyou Senior Member

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    I think in the 130-160K range, not really all that sure. Not going to be making 250 K on sallary, and you wont be only at 70K either. Certainlly not enough to burn in hell for.

    The money is on Wall St, and less so in consulting -but with both the sky is the limit. But again, the competition is fierce and when your talking about the real big paychecks you're not competing with the MDs anymore.
     
  30. dron000

    dron000 Removed

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    weird. i found this thread by doing search for "blonde" but dont see the word highlighted.

    i believe it's been discussed before that mckinsey recruits m.d. students, it's a consulting company, and you'd start as an associate at $150k. I think it's a very bad deal. It's obviously much less than what you get after a good residency, and you also must work in a big city with a high col. As a dr you can work anywhere in usa. and it's consulting-that's the most boring area of business(it's not finance) and i believe the exit options suck. And they cut people every 6months. I think people who come from top mba's would never go into consulting, they'd go into hedge funds or venture capital or ibanking. If any of those options were available to doctors, then it would indeed be worthwhile... The only good thing about mckinsey is that it has offices in most capital cities of europe and asia. So if you're russian and want to work in moscow, that's a great deal. I heard the benefits in moscow are really nice-13% tax, they pay for your $2k apt in downtown, and everyone there respects a man with a $2k suit and you can have a mistress. But again, it's an expensive city just like ny, and i dont see why anybody would take a pay cut to work in business as opposed to medicine, not to mention that you'd probably get fired eventually.

    And i dont understand why anybody would work in an insurance company. Really if they socialize healthcare and your salary becomes <$200k and you dont have any money saved up, best option is to kill yourself.
     
  31. prominence

    prominence Senior Member

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    good post. thanks.
     
  32. stillhere

    stillhere

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    i heard there is a website called mdintellinet.com that can maybe help you to transition out of medicine. i really dont know if it's a useful website or not.
     
  33. dron000

    dron000 Removed

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    stillhere, i looked at that website and they offer a lot of positions like "associate director/director" with a base pay of $120k(since they dont list total compensation, it's probably not much more...). And their requirements are "board certified in blablabla", "experience in the industry blablabla". Are they looking for doctors who lost their medical licenses?? I dont see why any dr would work for such a pathetic salary.
     
  34. confusedSE

    confusedSE Junior Member

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    I am also thinking about not doing a residency.
    Halfway through medical school (now) i realized that I'm not so much excited about the inner workings of medicine, medicine by itself, the science of it doesn't excite me. ALso, being a doctor does not involve much thinking. it involves spitting back what you are taught, a "gold standard" of treatment whatever it may be.
    I discovered that I loved finance, and I love risk, and I love business.

    I think if you're not going to do a residency, perhaps an MBA may be an option.
    I am going to get my MD/MBA and go into more intellectually stimulating fields (for me) like Venture Capital.

    I believe that also Mckinsey is a great option for MDs that are fresh. 175k compensation immediately, associate position immediately, pretty interesting work at a top tier consulting company, with definite opportunity after 2 years to go into another kind of finance or whatever it may be..
     
  35. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Why would they want somebody fresh out of medical school with no experience in business, law, or anyting else? You can certainly go to law school or business school but then you'd be a lawyer or an MBA who happens to have an MD.

    175K is more than the majority of doctors make right out of residency. I bet half of the people currently in residency don't like medicine enough to pass on a salary like that if they could bail out and make more money than they could if they stuck it out. I was looking for work as an engineer with an MD last year because I certainly wasn't going to stay in Family Medicine if I could have escaped for even close to a typical FP salary. I had a few nibbles but there is, apparently, not that much of a demand. I didn't really pursue it after I matched into EM so if I'm wrong I am happy to be corrected.

    I think an MD is only useful if you don't want to practice medicine if it is paired with something else like a JD, an MBA, or an engineering degree.
     
  36. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    You know, your student loans can be deferred while you are on active duty. If you just wanted to take a break from it all and do something completely different with its own set of challenges, why not enlist or seek a commission (non-medical, I mean) in the Marines or the Army.

    Of course, this has obvious drawbacks.

    If you don't want to be a ground-pounder you could look into a commission the Navy. My father was a Naval Officer (Surface Warfare) and he seemed to enjoy his career. He retired as the Commanding Officer of ship and he always said that was the most demanding but best job he ever had.

    The point is that you shouldn't limit yourself to just white-collar paper-pushing jobs which is where the OP is heading. For all its drawbacks, and there are many including paperwork, the medical profession is not a paper-pushing career.
     
  37. Ihatephilly

    Ihatephilly Removed

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    Is a combined MBA/MD enough to get into VC or IBanking right off the bat? Anyone know of any reliable/accurate resources?
     
  38. McDoctor

    McDoctor Over One Billion Cured

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    Job security in the white collar, pencil-pushing corporate world is virtually nil. Even if you are lucky enough to find something beyond $120K in the corporate world with your training, at least realize that these types of positions are hard to come by and most corporations will axe you without a secong thought the moment it makes financial sense to do so. At least in medicine, you know that MD=job security. The only MD's I know that have trouble finding work have severe discliplinary actions against their license.
     
  39. StevenRF

    StevenRF Senior Member

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    From what the program directors for the MD/MBA and MD/MPH keep telling us, in the coming job market, being board certified is key! This means at least having your intern year under your belt to get liscensed, and preferably finishing at least a 3 year residency. From what I keep hearing, the there is increasing demand for people that can function in both situations. Just doing your MD doesn't cut it as you've pretty much just done book work.

    I'm also on the MBA track for MD/MBA, but it seems like I'm going to do either a EM or IM 3 year program. The way I'm viewing it is the MBA will take the place of a fellowship. With EM I figure I can use some of the off time to work in business if I can find a firm willing to put up with a difficult schedule.

    As for job prospects... an MD/MBA can get you into ibanking right off the bat. It only takes a B.S. to go into ibanking. V.C. I think is more luck of the draw/ networking. If you go into the websites for some of the V.C. firms that do healthcare/biotech, you will notice that almost everyone worked in industry for a long time before making the jump unless they are a low level number cruncher. They had a panel today at lunch about MD/MBA. The speakers were all saying that it would take around 5+ years of work after residency before you could land a managerial position in a hospital, most likely more.

    If any of this sounds wrong, fill me in as peacing all this info together is a big pain.

    Oh yea, confusedSE. One of my friends works at McKinsey right out of undergrad. It's really killin him. He's working ibanking hours but getting half the pay. As you probably know, McKinsey is big on traveling to their clients, and he said its already burning him out after a few months of being in hotels.
     
  40. jimbobb23

    jimbobb23 Junior Member

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    So it sounds like the demand is not that great for MDs outside of medicine. I think that medicine is ok, but its just a job, and a very demanding job. I am not enjoying the prospect of another 7 years studying and passing all that foregone income (and sunlight). I don't think it is as stimulating as I imagined it would be, so any other job will probably do.

    I think it is probably the time to start thinking about an out - because in 10-20 years I think the increasing involvement of government is going to reduce our compensation pretty heavily and many many doctors will be looking for outs. No one cares about doctors except themselves and their dependents. Congress can jack us over with impunity.
     
  41. g293

    g293

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    Being a doctor doesn't involve much thinking? What are you talking about?

    Never mind, you'll never get it.
     
  42. erichaj

    erichaj Removed

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    I read a post in here about a doctor who got a job on wall street and became a millionare.

    Thats great. but, he did not get there by doing 9 to 5. I lived in NY for a long time an knew some those wall street guys.

    They work many many hours and after hours. Many do make millions and do retire early. Say at around 55. But ask them how much they worked until then an the answer is usally 80 to sometimes 100 hours a week.

    I remember one guy who took a one week vacation for the first time in 3 years. He was so proud of himself.:)

    There is also no guarantee that you will make millions. We always hear about the ones who do. We rarely talk about the many who go bust.

    Just remember, Ford of Ford motor company went bust 6 times before his company made it. By that time he was like 50 something years old.

    Also, remeber that since you most likely don't have any business training, both in business and the politics of business, you will be on a crash course of survival for a few years.

    I would say think hard before you choose to leave residency or not do one because you see the dollar signs on the other side.
     
  43. RRS

    RRS

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    You need to realize that medical school and residency isn't what being a doctor is like. Being an attending (academic or private) is whole lot different than being a student. It's very easy to get demoralized and project that kind of routine as your future. Spend some time with someone in private practice who likes their job before you assume the worst.

    And keep in mind that no matter how specialized you get, most of your job will end up being routine. Routine bypass surgery. Routine well child check. Routine bipolar patient. But the patients as people become much more interesting than their diseases. That's what's interesting about medicine.


    Finally, you don't JUST have to do medicine. I have a real estate company (for my own investments as well as helping physicians who are relocating). It's fun, something different than medicine, but hasn't required me to give up medicine.
     
  44. lateness

    lateness Senior Member

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    u really think someone is going to hire just an MD with no exp, and no residency and pay them 150Khousand starting, or more, a year for a consult? what la la land are u living in. it doesnt exist.. and all those people talkin about wall street, is so ridiculous i don't know where to begin. do u know how hard and competitive it is to get a good high paying job on wall street with loads of connections, and then u think an MD is going to get u in just like that?? the internet sometimes confuses; for example people thinking there are dream jobs that anyone can get...
    umm, these posts remind me of those Spam i get that i have won a contest that i never entered for 35 million dollars...:D :smuggrin: :sleep:
     
  45. beriberi

    beriberi Senior Member

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    apd.mckinsey.com

    The opportunity exists, but it (management consulting) is highly competitive. Yes, they take people with no business experience whatsoever, but the bar is set very high. They take a number of PhDs, JDs and other non-MBAs. Most MDs who apply do not find positions there.
     
  46. amyl

    amyl ASA Member

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    does anyone know about going to law school after medical school? i am an m3 who isn't loving medicine right now, maybe it will get better, but right now i don't like it. a friend suggested law school -- said there are great opportunities, great money and with the MD would probably get into any law school i wanted. he said it isn't just malpractice cases... lots of cases are people suing the insurance co. for stuff they won't cover. does any one know anyone who has done this -- any advice? thanks
     
  47. testerdrop

    testerdrop

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    Law is a tough route. You'd be better off switching to an area of business related to health care. The MD isn't going to help much with law. And sure there are opportunities to make a lot of money, but you would likely find the work as demanding as medicine and more boring.

    By the way, law school admission is basically about undrgraduate GPA and LSAT. The MD will give you a boost but not fundamentally change your competitiveness.
     
  48. PDXRay

    PDXRay

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    I have seen a lot of talk about "getting licensed" so that you can "work in a clinical position". I have done some exploration of this option, and although it used to be the way things work, licensing is only the first step to working as a clinical practitioner.

    Medicine is a complex system, and although practicing technically requires only a license, in reality, it is virtually impossible to work clinically without board certification and accreditation. Even though you are legally allowed to "hang your shingle" and practice medicine, trying to get hospital privileges or insurance reimbursement when you only have one PGY under your belt is going to be next to impossible.

    This also doesn't take into account the increased risk of successful litigation when practicing after only one PGY either. How defensible do you think that you would be as a clinical practitioner with less than one third the clinical training of the average physician?

    Although a clinical practice is a great safety net position, I am getting the feeling that some people on this website have gotten the wrong idea, and feel like that net exists with or without board certification. Clinical practice for a licensed, but non-boarded, non-accredited physician are slim pickings, at a generous best.
     
  49. Doowai

    Doowai

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    E publishing on various hot topics : weight loss, anti-aging, dealing with troubled teens..... Write out a 20 page e booklet, advertise on line, people pay with paypal and then download the book. No cost of publishing. E books written by Dr.So and so.

    Radio personality doing some radio talk expose show - get shocking guests, people who burst into flames during surgery, sex changes that went bad... You will pay the first 2 years (but make more than your money back by selling advertising during your radio talk show) but within a few years they will be paying you if y ou become a popular show - the station won't want to lose you. Your power is the strength of the advertising you can sell and then the number of calls ins

    health liaison - people hire you and you are on call. They pay a stipend of perhaps $10K a year - you travel with them to doctor visits and explain what everything means, what they should ask for, options - you hold their hand and help them make good decisions. FOr $10K or whatever you gaurantee a certain number of phone calls, a certain number of consults per month, a certain number of trips to a doctor with them.
     
  50. Dr. Dukes

    Dr. Dukes

    Joined:
    09.24.06
    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    The hall in which Odin received the souls of slain
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    They want MDs because there is TONS of money to be made in the biotech/pharma industry. An MBA can assess a company's business plan, but doesn't know crap about medicine. McKinsey sends all the MDs and PhDs they train to a short MBA boot camp where they learn the basics of business school, and then they get put to work evaluating the science in companies. Their logic is this: MDs have a unique skill set (medicine background) and smart enough to pick up other stuff.
     

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