Just received my Step 2 score (247) and very disappointed. Should I still apply ophtho?

[goldenfloofers]

Ive been interested in ophtho since entering med school.
I just received a 247 on Step 2 which was below what I was averaging prior to my test with my last practice test being 255.
I also honored 3 rotations and near honors the rest but this still landed me in the 3rd quartile of my class (right at the cusp of 2nd quartile).

Research wise I have one poster in ARVO and one 1st author paper pending (lower impact journal) as well as a couple smaller regional conference posters. I also have 3 papers in wet lab bench research from undergrad but I doubt these mean anything for match.

I go to a USMD low tier midwest school and my home program is mid-tier at best.

Should I even apply ophtho anymore? I'm really disappointed right now. The best hope would be to do away rotations at the lowest tier ophtho programs based on the spreadsheet that floats around each year but other than that I feel like it's very unlikely I'll match based on the numerous posts I see with people who have 260s and AOA and even then people say their chances are average.

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[goldenfloofers]

Really disappointed in my step 2 of 247. Was routinely hitting 250s prior to my exam and 80% correct on the Free 120s which some of my friends also got and received 255-265s.
Class quartile is 3rd with honors in about half my core rotations.
Research is 1 poster in ARVO and a submitted paper to a lower impact journal. I have several research papers in non-ophtho related journals as well as about 5 regional conference posters.

I'm currently applying to away rotations but is it even worth applying at this point given everything about my app is below average?

I ask because based on the spreadsheet for ophtho that floats around on Reddit/SDN, the median scores and quartiles tend to be 1st quartile and a 256ish for Step 2. However the sample size is less than 100 and it's Reddit/SDN-based meaning it's likely heavily skewed and biased. Thanks guys

Edit: I attend a USMD low tier midwest program who routinely matches 2-3 people to ophtho (usually out of 4-5 applicants)

 

[wysdoc]

Really disappointed in my step 2 of 247. Was routinely hitting 250s prior to my exam and 80% correct on the Free 120s which some of my friends also got and received 255-265s.
Class quartile is 3rd with honors in about half my core rotations.
Research is 1 poster in ARVO and a submitted paper to a lower impact journal. I have several research papers in non-ophtho related journals as well as about 5 regional conference posters.

I'm currently applying to away rotations but is it even worth applying at this point given everything about my app is below average?

I ask because based on the spreadsheet for ophtho that floats around on Reddit/SDN, the median scores and quartiles tend to be 1st quartile and a 256ish for Step 2. However the sample size is less than 100 and it's Reddit/SDN-based meaning it's likely heavily skewed and biased. Thanks guys

Keep going!

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Really disappointed in my step 2 of 247. Was routinely hitting 250s prior to my exam and 80% correct on the Free 120s which some of my friends also got and received 255-265s.
Class quartile is 3rd with honors in about half my core rotations.
Research is 1 poster in ARVO and a submitted paper to a lower impact journal. I have several research papers in non-ophtho related journals as well as about 5 regional conference posters.

I'm currently applying to away rotations but is it even worth applying at this point given everything about my app is below average?

I ask because based on the spreadsheet for ophtho that floats around on Reddit/SDN, the median scores and quartiles tend to be 1st quartile and a 256ish for Step 2. However the sample size is less than 100 and it's Reddit/SDN-based meaning it's likely heavily skewed and biased. Thanks guys

Dont lose hope, but Your chances are not very good. But many cases are there who have matched. So I will suggest you should apply. If you want to hedge bet. I suggest dual apply to nuerology (as there is path to Ophtho in fellowship) or any other primary care (IM FM. peds) . Also do 3 aways if you can fit in schedule. All at mid to low tier programs (doximity ranked 60+). Apply all the programs. All 110+ programs. With not expecting to match Ophthal, so you manage expectation but still hoping for best, while always remaining prepared for worst. Good Luck! Keep going! This all is having assumption that you are USMD. If you are top 20 USMD, your chances are better.

 

[goldenfloofers]

Dont lose hope, but Your chances are not very good. But many cases are there who have matched. So I will suggest you should apply. If you want to hedge bet. I suggest dual apply to nuerology (as there is path to Ophtho in fellowship) or any other primary care (IM FM. peds) . Also do 3 aways if you can fit in schedule. All at mid to low tier programs (doximity ranked 60+). Apply all the programs. All 110+ programs. With not expecting to match Ophthal, so you manage expectation but still hoping for best, while always remaining prepared for worst. Good Luck! Keep going! This all is having assumption that you are USMD. If you are top 20 USMD, your chances are better.

I do attend a USMD, low-tier (made edits in the original post).
I am trying to fit in as many aways as possible, hopefully 3 like you said all at low tier programs ranked in the 60-100s.

Would dual applying with an ophtho heavy app (i.e ophtho electives, aways, and research) hurt me for applying to IM? If I do end up matching IM, I would prefer to be at an academic program near my family (not a top tier academic program like Stanford or MGH but just any academic program).

 

[medschoolaspirant]

I do attend a USMD, low-tier (made edits in the original post).
I am trying to fit in as many aways as possible, hopefully 3 like you said all at low tier programs ranked in the 60-100s.

Would dual applying with an ophtho heavy app (i.e ophtho electives, aways, and research) hurt me for applying to IM? If I do end up matching IM, I would prefer to be at an academic program near my family in California (not a top tier academic program like Stanford, but just any academic program).

Yes. It will hurt to some extent. But to match in Academic IM will not be as much challenge. It is doable. I had 8 ophthal Interviews and 8 IM. I had applied very top tier IM academic programs only. I had expected more interviews in both. My stats were little better then yours (258. 2nd quartile. 1 pass. 1 HP. Rest all honors Mid tier USMD school). All my IM interview asked question why not ophthal? So be prepared to dance on that question. Also dont mention on eras any away which is done after first 4 blocks. Try to hide ophthal as much as possible (I tried, but still all IM program asked me that question). You will definitely match IM. Broadly apply IM as well, if I have to re do it, I will apply more academic IM and not only top tier IM. I matched ophthal. To my away. I had done 2 aways. If I have to re do it, I will do 3. Your best chance is home program or away.

 

[goldenfloofers]

Yes. It will hurt to some extent. But to match in Academic IM will not be as much challenge. It is doable. I had 8 ophthal Interviews and 8 IM. I had applied very top tier IM academic programs only. I had expected more interviews in both. My stats were little better then yours (258. 2nd quartile. 1 pass. 1 HP. Rest all honors Mid tier USMD school). All my IM interview asked question why not ophthal? So be prepared to dance on that question. Also dont mention on eras any away which is done after first 4 blocks. Try to hide ophthal as much as possible (I tried, but still all IM program asked me that question). You will definitely match IM. Broadly apply IM as well, if I have to re do it, I will apply more academic IM and not only top tier IM. I matched ophthal. To my away. I had done 2 aways. If I have to re do it, I will do 3. Your best chance is home program or away.

I understand it’ll hurt me, as long as I have a shot at a reasonably decent mid tier solid IM program that leaves doors open to fellowships, I’ll be happy to dual apply.

I was actually advised to be careful about dual applying because programs will definitely know I’m only applying as a backup and will DNR me, at least at the more top or mid tier programs. I think someone recently posted about how they dual applied ophtho and IM and didn’t match anywhere at all.

Congratulations on matching I think your stats were great. A 258 is definitely above the median already. Any tips on how you made connections at aways and made sure they remembered you even after your away was over?

 

[MDMechEngr]

Agreed with poster above. Your best shot is with your home program and do 3 away sub-i's. Recommend doing 2 sub-i at your home optho program before doing the away rotations. You are going to have to shine and be charismatic. If you have the personality that people are drawn to you than you are in a good spot. Apply to all optho programs except the Osteopath programs. Academic IM programs at popular geo locations will be tough to match also. You will need to apply broadly in IM as well to be safe.

 

[GoSpursGo]

It honestly comes down to your risk tolerance. Your odds are not 0%, but they are also probably not as good as the benchmark 75%.

I generally recommend that people not dual apply and either commit to going all out for your preferred specialty or settle for your backup. Putting together two separate applications is exhausting, and will undoubtedly hinder you as you are trying to put your best foot forward on your aways while also inviting uncomfortable interview questions from your backup specialty. Obviously it can work out, but when you know you're reaching for a specialty you may need every little margin to help you out.

If you do apply ophtho, either alone or dual-apply, go in knowing what your backup plan will be if you fail to match.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

I was advised the same for dual apply. Even my school counselor advised against it, On hind sight it feels like it was not needed. Still I think my best decision was to dual apply, as it gave me immense peace of mind with my IM IVs. Yes. They know you are dual applyimg. But they also know you are borderline for Ophtho (you think 258 was good. But in all reality 250-260 is borderline in new ophtho world, below 250 is low for ophtho. Also no 1st quartile. No aoa. No top 20 all makes borderline) and they know you are top match for them. One of my IM IV started with first line, how can we convince you to take up IM and join us. So you have no choice but need to take that chance as long as you see yourself doing IM without giving up hope on ophtho. I have not seen a post of any borderline ophtho candidate dual applying and not matching either. On discord and here we all dual applicant had good season. So I may have missed. But I was very active on both platforms last season.

Now tips on making connections.
1. Apply away now. Apply 2-3 per block. Select 3 blocks if your schedule permits. Apply mid /low tier.
2. April. May try to accpet all aways.
3. Do atleast 1 away in first 4 blocks to get on MSPE.
4. Do 2 before IV if possible. So before October. If need to stretch then Nov.
6. First week of away, write email to PD to meet. One on one. One of my resident at away that I matched, mention on first week, that you appear to have cracked the code, when I setup meeting with PD. He said many away rotator dont do it. Question to ask PD characterstics of perfect candidate that they see as resident and explicitely expressing interest to match here.
7. Ask resident you are working with on week one if s/he can introduce you to other residents. Do the same thing as PD with residents. Resident participate in IV and have a say on selection. Final decision is with PD. But residents are biggest influencer for PD.
8. Month of July and august. Write all program coordinator for programs you are not going for away sending your resume expressing interest in program. Asking to learn more about prpgram, before you apply. Asking for a resident introduction who will be willing to share details of program.
9. Dont do above step early. As it is difficult to keep contact for long. You will get a few residents contacts, schedule a time to speak. Ask same questions. Express interest.
10. September. let all contacts. Away. Other programs residents connection, know your interested and you applied and if they can put word with PD for Interview.
11. October. Before IV released send letter of interest and request opportunity to IV. Send email to PC. once IV released and you didnt get it in first shot. And you are connected to resident in that program thru earier effort in July august. Let them know. See if they can vouch for you.
12. In december send letter of intent to your number 1. You can send only one letter of intent to your top choice, I did the same for my away that I matched. I knew PD. All residents. Residents post IV sent me private texts saying I did well.

This is all I csn think of. Lot of work. Remember Ophthalmology need competent residents. But more importsntly, they need happy residents. Connection works. Ophthal is small field. So it is important who know who when time comes to get a spot.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Agreed with poster above. Your best shot is with your home program and do 3 away sub-i's. Recommend doing 2 sub-i at your home optho program before doing the away rotations. You are going to have to shine and be charismatic. If you have the personality that people are drawn to you than you are in a good spot. Apply to all optho programs except the Osteopath programs. Academic IM programs at popular geo locations will be tough to match also. You will need to apply broadly in IM as well to be safe.

I agree. Dont waste money for DO only program. They will only accept DO. I wasted that money.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

It honestly comes down to your risk tolerance. Your odds are not 0%, but they are also probably not as good as the benchmark 75%.

I generally recommend that people not dual apply and either commit to going all out for your preferred specialty or settle for your backup. Putting together two separate applications is exhausting, and will undoubtedly hinder you as you are trying to put your best foot forward on your aways while also inviting uncomfortable interview questions from your backup specialty. Obviously it can work out, but when you know you're reaching for a specialty you may need every little margin to help you out.

If you do apply ophtho, either alone or dual-apply, go in knowing what your backup plan will be if you fail to match.

I agree to part of dual application is lot of work. It takes something away from your primary application. You need many more essasys to write. You need to line up 4 recommended in IM and at least 1 back up, in case last minute someone fails to send in time. You need 3 recommender in Ophthal again with 1 back up, just in case. Had I applied Ophthal only, I would have written 30+ targetted personal statements by program, which I had reaslistc chance. With dual application. I didnt get that time and I only had one generic personal statement for all programs. With targeted personal statement by school, with interest in that specific program for these reasons, you definitely increase your chance for IV. My only 8 Opthal IV would have been more, had I only applied Ophthal. Having said that, I still feel dual apply was my best decision, as I was not stressed at all like other applicant. So trade off for peace of mind was making up more then single apply with better quality.

 

[goldenfloofers]

It honestly comes down to your risk tolerance. Your odds are not 0%, but they are also probably not as good as the benchmark 75%.

I generally recommend that people not dual apply and either commit to going all out for your preferred specialty or settle for your backup. Putting together two separate applications is exhausting, and will undoubtedly hinder you as you are trying to put your best foot forward on your aways while also inviting uncomfortable interview questions from your backup specialty. Obviously it can work out, but when you know you're reaching for a specialty you may need every little margin to help you out.

If you do apply ophtho, either alone or dual-apply, go in knowing what your backup plan will be if you fail to match.

Agreed with poster above. Your best shot is with your home program and do 3 away sub-i's. Recommend doing 2 sub-i at your home optho program before doing the away rotations. You are going to have to shine and be charismatic. If you have the personality that people are drawn to you than you are in a good spot. Apply to all optho programs except the Osteopath programs. Academic IM programs at popular geo locations will be tough to match also. You will need to apply broadly in IM as well to be safe.

Do you know people who matched with similar profiles as me or am I a huge underdog in this process?

Like someone else mentioned, I’m relatively risk averse especially because the worst case scenario is not to match, take a research year, and then dual apply and still not match because IM knows they’re just a backup.

 

[nibhighfootballrules]

I was advised the same for dual apply. Even my school counselor advised against it, On hind sight it feels like it was not needed. Still I think my best decision was to dual apply, as it gave me immense peace of mind with my IM IVs. Yes. They know you are dual applyimg. But they also know you are borderline for Ophtho (you think 258 was good. But in all reality 250-260 is borderline in new ophtho world, below 250 is low for ophtho. Also no 1st quartile. No aoa. No top 20 all makes borderline) and they know you are top match for them. One of my IM IV started with first line, how can we convince you to take up IM and join us. So you have no choice but need to take that chance as long as you see yourself doing IM without giving up hope on ophtho. I have not seen a post of any borderline ophtho candidate dual applying and not matching either. On discord and here we all dual applicant had good season. So I may have missed. But I was very active on both platforms last season.

Now tips on making connections.
1. Apply away now. Apply 2-3 per block. Select 3 blocks if your schedule permits. Apply mid /low tier.
2. April. May try to accpet all aways.
3. Do atleast 1 away in first 4 blocks to get on MSPE.
4. Do 2 before IV if possible. So before October. If need to stretch then Nov.
6. First week of away, write email to PD to meet. One on one. One of my resident at away that I matched, mention on first week, that you appear to have cracked the code, when I setup meeting with PD. He said many away rotator dont do it. Question to ask PD characterstics of perfect candidate that they see as resident and explicitely expressing interest to match here.
7. Ask resident you are working with on week one if s/he can introduce you to other residents. Do the same thing as PD with residents. Resident participate in IV and have a say on selection. Final decision is with PD. But residents are biggest influencer for PD.
8. Month of July and august. Write all program coordinator for programs you are not going for away sending your resume expressing interest in program. Asking to learn more about prpgram, before you apply. Asking for a resident introduction who will be willing to share details of program.
9. Dont do above step early. As it is difficult to keep contact for long. You will get a few residents contacts, schedule a time to speak. Ask same questions. Express interest.
10. September. let all contacts. Away. Other programs residents connection, know your interested and you applied and if they can put word with PD for Interview.
11. October. Before IV released send letter of interest and request opportunity to IV. Send email to PC. once IV released and you didnt get it in first shot. And you are connected to resident in that program thru earier effort in July august. Let them know. See if they can vouch for you.
12. In december send letter of intent to your number 1. You can send only one letter of intent to your top choice, I did the same for my away that I matched. I knew PD. All residents. Residents post IV sent me private texts saying I did well.

This is all I csn think of. Lot of work. Remember Ophthalmology need competent residents. But more importsntly, they need happy residents. Connection works. Ophthal is small field. So it is important who know who when time comes to get a spot.

Great post on how to make connections. I was curious what your experience was with PD’s accepting your request to meet first week of away. Was their advice for you helpful/ did it enhance your experience as an away rotator or was it just the usual comments on how to do a good job.

Additionally, it looks like you put in a lot of leg work at every program you applied to but ultimately you matched at one you did an away at. From my perspective it seems like in these very competitive fields programs pretty much exclusively match students who rotated there. Any thoughts on how students end up at programs they didn’t rotate at? Thanks

 

[m1redsox]

Obviously people do it every year. I think you just need to maximize your chances by playing it smart. Does your home institution have a program? That is your best chance. Network hard there. Otherwise, look at low tier programs for aways (someone said 60+, but I would say 80+). I would think about programs like USC-Columbia, VCU, MCG, Arizona, UMKC, LSU-NO, Buffalo, Nassau, Beaumont Royal Oak, UTMB, Mississippi, NYMC (either Jamaica or Westchester), SUNY-Downstate. Note that most of these still have at least 4 residents to maximize your chances. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to spread out your aways either to “unlock” regions. N=1, but I did an away in the midwest and then matched at another program in the midwest.

Edit: for reference, I had a 251, 0 publications, ORM male, half honors on rotations and I received 18 interviews. I had a pretty unique story that led to some pretty interesting essays.

I also think personalizing my personal statements helped me a ton. I had a very high yield for those programs.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Do you know people who matched with similar profiles as me or am I a huge underdog in this process?

Like someone else mentioned, I’m relatively risk averse especially because the worst case scenario is not to match, take a research year, and then dual apply and still not match because IM knows they’re just a backup.

Honestly I’m not the best person to answer since I’m not in ophtho. But it also doesn’t really matter, because it really comes down to your ability to network. This is why I recommend going all in if you’re going to do it.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Great post on how to make connections. I was curious what your experience was with PD’s accepting your request to meet first week of away. Was their advice for you helpful/ did it enhance your experience as an away rotator or was it just the usual comments on how to do a good job.

Additionally, it looks like you put in a lot of leg work at every program you applied to but ultimately you matched at one you did an away at. From my perspective it seems like in these very competitive fields programs pretty much exclusively match students who rotated there. Any thoughts on how students end up at programs they didn’t rotate at? Thanks

First week meeting with PD was code cracker. It was more for me to express interest. So PD knows. I wamt to come here. Also be genuine snd put lot of work at away. So resident knows you are work horse. They vouch for you.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Do you know people who matched with similar profiles as me or am I a huge underdog in this process?

Like someone else mentioned, I’m relatively risk averse especially because the worst case scenario is not to match, take a research year, and then dual apply and still not match because IM knows they’re just a backup.

Everyone I know who matched ophtho this year has an S2 around 260, fair amount of research, AOA, above avarge number of Honors in clinical, and pretty good LOR. They did 2 to 3 away sub_Is. They all received more than 15 IVs and matched to some top programs. One person matched T5.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Do you know people who matched with similar profiles as me or am I a huge underdog in this process?

Like someone else mentioned, I’m relatively risk averse especially because the worst case scenario is not to match, take a research year, and then dual apply and still not match because IM knows they’re just a backup.

Lets face it. Yes. you will be an under dog. "huge" or not is debatable. Have people matched with your profile?- YES. look at Ophtho sheet with postmtach stats. there are at least 10-12 (out of 60+) people below 250 and 3-4 quartile. no aoa, who all matched. so definitely possible. but these sheets are leaning more towards people who match. so take data with pinch of salt. people who dont match, dont fill the sheet. If you have risk apetite by hedging bet (Dual - apply), Go ahead man !! apply !! it is your own risk apetite, if you are risk averse, then make your decision. then do only IM Sub I only and you are strong applicant anyway for IM. for IM, you dont even have to do too many away. 1 or max 2 are enough. I didnt do any, as I had no room outside of my 2 Ophtho away. looking at IM SUb I on your MSPE, you will get many more IV as well. You make the decision.

 

[james_beam]

You can't match if you don't apply. If you're worried about matching, then have backup plans, such as dual applying to another specialty, ophtho research year, or gen surg/IM prelim year. If you don't match, the match rate for reapplicants is abysmal, but a few seem to be successful every year. Ultimately, you have to decide what's best for you.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I've merged your two active threads on this topic.

 

[Gonio5]

Lets face it. Yes. you will be an under dog. "huge" or not is debatable. Have people matched with your profile?- YES. look at Ophtho sheet with postmtach stats. there are at least 10-12 (out of 60+) people below 250 and 3-4 quartile. no aoa, who all matched. so definitely possible. but these sheets are leaning more towards people who match. so take data with pinch of salt. people who dont match, dont fill the sheet. If you have risk apetite by hedging bet (Dual - apply), Go ahead man !! apply !! it is your own risk apetite, if you are risk averse, then make your decision. then do only IM Sub I only and you are strong applicant anyway for IM. for IM, you dont even have to do too many away. 1 or max 2 are enough. I didnt do any, as I had no room outside of my 2 Ophtho away. looking at IM SUb I on your MSPE, you will get many more IV as well. You make the decision.

I know a foreign medical graduate that matched. Also know of some weak people that matched.

My record was not perfect either. I had no away rotations and the home rotation was full until after the application season (bs, it wasn't, but the secretary was on a power trip) so I had no ophtho recommendations, except one community ophthalmologist.

 

[threeroses]

I think the 247 wouldn't be a dealbreaker if you had strong LORs, realistic away rotations, and a compelling story. It's not ideal, but I know a few people who matched with scores in the 240s. Have you considered taking a research year?

 

[Slide]

To OP - I've been involved in residency interviews enough to determine what kinds of chances applicants have. Your chances aren't horrible and I do think it's worth applying but you'll be swimming upstream. Just my thoughts:
-either commit to ophtho or don't. If you're dual applying it also sends weakness to us that you're not serious about applying for ophthalmology.
-you have to make up your scores with getting face time in with other programs/PDs and residents. Going heavy on aways is good but you need to bring your A game every single day. Treat it as an internship and show that you are a hard worker, team player, etc etc. You gotta be the person that shows up early, last one to leave and so on.
-concentrate on your regional area. If I see people applying from California and NY to our program, unless those applicants have home connections to our program I see it as just applicants shot-gunning applications and hoping to get in somewhere. We're not idiots, and no program likes to be seen as desperate to take anyone. Ophtho is competitive, and even the "lowest-ranked" programs are highly competitive.
-Hope that interviews this year are not virtual. I really think virtual applicants have done more a disservice to applicants than favors due to all applicants applying to 60-80 programs. Guess what, even if you increase the amount of interviews, programs may end up interviewing the same group of 100-150 applicants. With in-person interviews and conflicting dates, it'll force a better spread and lower number of applications sent out.
-If you really are devoted and want to do ophthalmology, consider doing a research/pre-residency fellowship. I know for some people it ended up a blessing in disguise because it gave them connections and research opportunities that paid off for fellowship and for professional opportunities.

 

[m1redsox]

To OP - I've been involved in residency interviews enough to determine what kinds of chances applicants have. Your chances aren't horrible and I do think it's worth applying but you'll be swimming upstream. Just my thoughts:
-either commit to ophtho or don't. If you're dual applying it also sends weakness to us that you're not serious about applying for ophthalmology.
-you have to make up your scores with getting face time in with other programs/PDs and residents. Going heavy on aways is good but you need to bring your A game every single day. Treat it as an internship and show that you are a hard worker, team player, etc etc. You gotta be the person that shows up early, last one to leave and so on.
-concentrate on your regional area. If I see people applying from California and NY to our program, unless those applicants have home connections to our program I see it as just applicants shot-gunning applications and hoping to get in somewhere. We're not idiots, and no program likes to be seen as desperate to take anyone. Ophtho is competitive, and even the "lowest-ranked" programs are highly competitive.
-Hope that interviews this year are not virtual. I really think virtual applicants have done more a disservice to applicants than favors due to all applicants applying to 60-80 programs. Guess what, even if you increase the amount of interviews, programs may end up interviewing the same group of 100-150 applicants. With in-person interviews and conflicting dates, it'll force a better spread and lower number of applications sent out.
-If you really are devoted and want to do ophthalmology, consider doing a research/pre-residency fellowship. I know for some people it ended up a blessing in disguise because it gave them connections and research opportunities that paid off for fellowship and for professional opportunities.

I agree with all of this except concentrating only on your region. I'm from the west and am in the Southeast for med school. Meanwhile, I got 5 interviews in the Southeast (including my home program and a program I rotated at) and 1 in the West. So, I got 12 interviews and ultimately matched in a region that I had no connections to. I encourage you to apply to all programs if you can afford it. If not, remove programs from the top of the doximity rank list (ie Bascom, Wills, Wilmer, Duke, MEEI, etc) not the bottom.

 

[Dusn]

I guess separate prelim intern years are completely gone now? That’s too bad. Instead of “dual-applying” my backup plan was to apply to some solid internship programs for my prelim year, and if I didn’t match into ophtho, I planned to try to convince (beg) the internship that accepted me to let me stay on as an internal medicine categorical resident. Then I’d try to get into GI or something procedural.

 

[goldenfloofers]

To OP - I've been involved in residency interviews enough to determine what kinds of chances applicants have. Your chances aren't horrible and I do think it's worth applying but you'll be swimming upstream. Just my thoughts:
-either commit to ophtho or don't. If you're dual applying it also sends weakness to us that you're not serious about applying for ophthalmology.
-you have to make up your scores with getting face time in with other programs/PDs and residents. Going heavy on aways is good but you need to bring your A game every single day. Treat it as an internship and show that you are a hard worker, team player, etc etc. You gotta be the person that shows up early, last one to leave and so on.
-concentrate on your regional area. If I see people applying from California and NY to our program, unless those applicants have home connections to our program I see it as just applicants shot-gunning applications and hoping to get in somewhere. We're not idiots, and no program likes to be seen as desperate to take anyone. Ophtho is competitive, and even the "lowest-ranked" programs are highly competitive.
-Hope that interviews this year are not virtual. I really think virtual applicants have done more a disservice to applicants than favors due to all applicants applying to 60-80 programs. Guess what, even if you increase the amount of interviews, programs may end up interviewing the same group of 100-150 applicants. With in-person interviews and conflicting dates, it'll force a better spread and lower number of applications sent out.
-If you really are devoted and want to do ophthalmology, consider doing a research/pre-residency fellowship. I know for some people it ended up a blessing in disguise because it gave them connections and research opportunities that paid off for fellowship and for professional opportunities.

1. How would ophtho programs know I'm dual applying? Do programs talk to other programs or departments within the same program?
2. I plan on doing many aways at low tier schools and schools near my home program that have historically accepted students from my home school
3. I heard interviews will likely be virtual this year as well so aways will be even more important. I wish ophtho had program signaling. That would help narrow it down to the top 10 programs or so for applicants right?
4. I was advised not to do a research year preemptively because of the risk of going unmatched and now I'm unmatched, a graduated senior who took a research year, and now I have to reapply with either a second research year or just match into something less competitive.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

1. How would ophtho programs know I'm dual applying? Do programs talk to other programs or departments within the same program?
2. I plan on doing many aways at low tier schools and schools near my home program that have historically accepted students from my home school
3. I heard interviews will likely be virtual this year as well so aways will be even more important. I wish ophtho had program signaling. That would help narrow it down to the top 10 programs or so for applicants right?
4. I was advised not to do a research year preemptively because of the risk of going unmatched and now I'm unmatched, a graduated senior who took a research year, and now I have to reapply with either a second research year or just match into something less competitive.

I don't know actual answer. But I can tell you I was invited to 2 Schools for both IM and Ophtho. One of them being my own home school. So leave alone, Ophtho programs knowing that you dual applied to IM. within same school also they don't have time to check internally, if I am dual applying. these 2 schools IM program didnt pick up phone or text my Ophtho PD. Now IM program 'may' know it, as your resume will speak for it. highly unlikely ophtho program will ever know. Keep also in mind, keep it super secret within yourself (dont even tell, your best friend within your school), as word fly very fast. I personally know a case of someone telling a freind, who told resident and then to PD. so PD asked that person during interview, I heard you dual applied to IM, are you interested in Ophtho or IM.

 

[Gonio5]

I guess separate prelim intern years are completely gone now? That’s too bad.

Yes, these are banned now. All ophthalmology residencies must have an integrated PGY-1 year with 3 months ophthalmology and 9 months of other rotations. That's mostly good but the bad thing is that the 9 months are rarely heavy on surgery and may have no surgery. Ophthalmology is a surgical field. Surgical pre and post op management is great training. Ok, not all 9 months, of course.

1. How would ophtho programs know I'm dual applying? Do programs talk to other programs or departments within the same program?
.

People talk. The leak might be from your own medical school. My chair was senile and got me confused with someone else. Another program then interviewed me and confronted me with the antics of that someone else. At least they confronted me so I could explain that I wasn't that person instead of holding it against me and saying nothing. I then knew who leaked it. It was the senile Chairman.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Yes, these are banned now. All ophthalmology residencies must have an integrated PGY-1 year with 3 months ophthalmology and 9 months of other rotations. That's mostly good but the bad thing is that the 9 months are rarely heavy on surgery and may have no surgery. Ophthalmology is a surgical field. Surgical pre and post op management is great training. Ok, not all 9 months, of course.

People talk. The leak might be from your own medical school. My chair was senile and got me confused with someone else. Another program then interviewed me and confronted me with the antics of that someone else. At least they confronted me so I could explain that I wasn't that person instead of holding it against me and saying nothing. I then knew who leaked it. It was the senile Chairman.

This is the reason NOT to tell anyone. In my case, only people knew was MYSELF AND MYSELF ONLY. NONE OF THE REC WRITERS (till I matched Ophtho. then I told my IM writers Thanks and as courtesy, that I had dual applied) on both the sides. No one knew I dual applied. NONE FROM MY SCHOOL KNEW I DUAL APPLIED. as systems are separate SFMATCH AND ERAS), that helps as well.

 

[goldenfloofers]

I agree with all of this except concentrating only on your region. I'm from the west and am in the Southeast for med school. Meanwhile, I got 5 interviews in the Southeast (including my home program and a program I rotated at) and 1 in the West. So, I got 12 interviews and ultimately matched in a region that I had no connections to. I encourage you to apply to all programs if you can afford it. If not, remove programs from the top of the doximity rank list (ie Bascom, Wills, Wilmer, Duke, MEEI, etc) not the bottom.

you matched at a program you didn't do an away at and didn't have ties to the region? So just off virtual interviews? How common is that?

 

[m1redsox]

you matched at a program you didn't do an away at and didn't have ties to the region? So just off virtual interviews? How common is that?

Correct. Not sure how common it is. No idea how one would get stats on that. However, I figure it's a result of no signals. Without signals, everyone is applying and interviewing everywhere, regardless of connections.

Edit: but of course, it's at least somewhat common. I'm not the only one from my class who matched ophtho where they had no ties. Many of the residents in my home program had no rotations or ties here either. Sometimes, an interview can really impress both the applicant and program, and they rank each other highly. Not that crazy.

 

[goldenfloofers]

Correct. Not sure how common it is. No idea how one would get stats on that. However, I figure it's a result of no signals. Without signals, everyone is applying and interviewing everywhere, regardless of connections.

Edit: but of course, it's at least somewhat common. I'm not the only one from my class who matched ophtho where they had no ties. Many of the residents in my home program had no rotations or ties here either. Sometimes, an interview can really impress both the applicant and program, and they rank each other highly. Not that crazy.

Interesting. Congratulations on the match. I'm hoping to do 4 aways at least. I think my geographic preference of california is off the table so I'll have to focus on lower tier programs in any state of the US

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Interesting. Congratulations on the match. I'm hoping to do 4 aways at least. I think my geographic preference of california is off the table so I'll have to focus on lower tier programs in any state of the US

It will be mistake to NOT do away either in home state or school you went to, that state. These 2 are your biggest ties on your application. You may do may be 1 away to open up another region. But thats it.

 

[goldenfloofers]

It will be mistake to NOT do away either in home state or school you went to, that state. These 2 are your biggest ties on your application. You may do may be 1 away to open up another region. But thats it.

So currently my plan would be 1) home program subI, 2) another away rotation within the region of my home program 3) an away at my home state (but the lowest tier one I can get) 4) maybe a bonus one either at my home state or home program state = total of 4

 

[eyeeye_captain]

So currently my plan would be 1) home program subI, 2) another away rotation within the region of my home program 3) an away at my home state (but the lowest tier one I can get) 4) maybe a bonus one either at my home state or home program state = total of 4

That’s a solid plan. Speaking of connections, if these criteria fit a program where a student from your school matched or where a mentor knows some people, then you may have a bonus.

 

[goldenfloofers]

That’s a solid plan. Speaking of connections, if these criteria fit a program where a student from your school matched or where a mentor knows some people, then you may have a bonus.

Any consensus on LOR numbers?
I’ve read it could be 3 ophtho or 2 ophtho + 1 IM or Surgery. I have a strong LOR from IM but not sure if I should save that one for if I dual apply to IM.

 

[Slide]

1. How would ophtho programs know I'm dual applying? Do programs talk to other programs or departments within the same program?
2. I plan on doing many aways at low tier schools and schools near my home program that have historically accepted students from my home school
3. I heard interviews will likely be virtual this year as well so aways will be even more important. I wish ophtho had program signaling. That would help narrow it down to the top 10 programs or so for applicants right?
4. I was advised not to do a research year preemptively because of the risk of going unmatched and now I'm unmatched, a graduated senior who took a research year, and now I have to reapply with either a second research year or just match into something less competitive.

1. People talk, and the medical world is smaller than you think. PDs meet for various reasons and sometimes lists are compared. You might get away with it, you might not. Anecdotally every applicant I know that has dual applied never got into ophthalmology.
2. This is good - if you have ties to a competitive state like California or NY, it wouldn’t hurt to do one as well. Home connection is a powerful thing but just remember an away rotation always a guarantee for an interview.

3. You won’t know the signaling until after the fact unfortunately. The basics though are a) don’t apply to a top program unless your LOR tells you (these spots are almost always pre planned in a sense), b) look at the residents of each program and see where they came from - it’ll give a sense of what regions programs accept, c) ask anyone you know connected to the field for help and advice. We’re just anonymous people trying to give you advice without blowing our identities so you’ll need to talk to people that know you.

4. Don’t listen to that crap. We have two excellent residents who did a research year and I do think it’s made them better residents. It’s becoming more and more common, which sucks for applicants who didn’t spend the majority of their time prepping for ophthalmology. My honest opinion is that your chances of getting in are best on your first try. If you don’t get in, then you’re not only behind on the process of buffing your application but you also have to explain yourself the second go-around. I know several ophthalmologists who’ve done a research year and it’s actually helped them get into great fellowships after.

As far as LORs, two ophthalmology LORs is fine. Whats more important is that your mentor or LOR makes the effort to reach out on your behalf to a program(s) that you like. Like it or not, having someone vouch for you will go a long way. My mentors reached out to programs for me and vice versa when it was my time to do the same for med students.

 

[Slide]

I agree with all of this except concentrating only on your region. I'm from the west and am in the Southeast for med school. Meanwhile, I got 5 interviews in the Southeast (including my home program and a program I rotated at) and 1 in the West. So, I got 12 interviews and ultimately matched in a region that I had no connections to. I encourage you to apply to all programs if you can afford it. If not, remove programs from the top of the doximity rank list (ie Bascom, Wills, Wilmer, Duke, MEEI, etc) not the bottom.

I’m glad it worked out well for you but I’m speaking from my side of things, and the data really supports a tier/regional bias. Exceptions aren’t the rule and the odds are simply better in your geographic area/tier. I’m in the southeast and many of the programs around here have residents that are usually at most two states away. The tiers matter though and a place like Emory or Vandy will obviously attract people across the nation.

I help screen applicants from time to time. While I consider our program a great clinical one that trains excellent clinicians and surgeons, in most applicants’ minds we’re a low tier program. With that in mind, whenever we see an applicant from the West Coast or mid Atlantic/Northeast, guess what we do? Straight to trash bin, no application refund (SFMatch thanks your donation to their yearly bonuses).

 

[goldenfloofers]

1. People talk, and the medical world is smaller than you think. PDs meet for various reasons and sometimes lists are compared. You might get away with it, you might not. Anecdotally every applicant I know that has dual applied never got into ophthalmology.
2. This is good - if you have ties to a competitive state like California or NY, it wouldn’t hurt to do one as well. Home connection is a powerful thing but just remember an away rotation always a guarantee for an interview.

3. You won’t know the signaling until after the fact unfortunately. The basics though are a) don’t apply to a top program unless your LOR tells you (these spots are almost always pre planned in a sense), b) look at the residents of each program and see where they came from - it’ll give a sense of what regions programs accept, c) ask anyone you know connected to the field for help and advice. We’re just anonymous people trying to give you advice without blowing our identities so you’ll need to talk to people that know you.

4. Don’t listen to that crap. We have two excellent residents who did a research year and I do think it’s made them better residents. It’s becoming more and more common, which sucks for applicants who didn’t spend the majority of their time prepping for ophthalmology. My honest opinion is that your chances of getting in are best on your first try. If you don’t get in, then you’re not only behind on the process of buffing your application but you also have to explain yourself the second go-around. I know several ophthalmologists who’ve done a research year and it’s actually helped them get into great fellowships after.

As far as LORs, two ophthalmology LORs is fine. Whats more important is that your mentor or LOR makes the effort to reach out on your behalf to a program(s) that you like. Like it or not, having someone vouch for you will go a long way. My mentors reached out to programs for me and vice versa when it was my time to do the same for med students.

Thank you.
I did do some research with a prolific researcher in the ophtho field who's associated with a top medical school (T10) over the summer so he remembers my name and the summer we did some research/meetings over Zoom. He said he would be happy to chat with me but realistically I'm not really sure what he can do for me given 1) I'm not from his school 2) I've only done research with him, not clinical work 3) there's no guarantee I'll get an away there and even if I do, no telling if I'll work with him. He would've been an excellent big name for a LOR. Maybe I'll ask him if there's anything I can do at this point.

I do have ties to California but my school has had upperclassmen who definitely had better stats than me not match to California despite doing aways. I think our school (low-tier US MD) is just not what California programs are looking for unless I have specific mentors from those programs who can vouch for me. I'm still struggling to decide if doing an away in CA would be worth it or if I should spend that slot doing one near my home program that is lower tier but I see where you are coming from and appreciate the advice. I'm leaning towards at least doing one in California because, why not

 

[goldenfloofers]

I’m glad it worked out well for you but I’m speaking from my side of things, and the data really supports a tier/regional bias. Exceptions aren’t the rule and the odds are simply better in your geographic area/tier. I’m in the southeast and many of the programs around here have residents that are usually at most two states away. The tiers matter though and a place like Emory or Vandy will obviously attract people across the nation.

I help screen applicants from time to time. While I consider our program a great clinical one that trains excellent clinicians and surgeons, in most applicants’ minds we’re a low tier program. With that in mind, whenever we see an applicant from the West Coast or mid Atlantic/Northeast, guess what we do? Straight to trash bin, no application refund (SFMatch thanks your donation to their yearly bonuses).

So is it safe to say, unless you're really a top tier applicant, you will most likely match at programs within the vicinity of your home med school - even if I'm from the west coast, if my med school is in the south, I will have to best chances near the south?

 

[m1redsox]

I’m glad it worked out well for you but I’m speaking from my side of things, and the data really supports a tier/regional bias. Exceptions aren’t the rule and the odds are simply better in your geographic area/tier. I’m in the southeast and many of the programs around here have residents that are usually at most two states away. The tiers matter though and a place like Emory or Vandy will obviously attract people across the nation.

I help screen applicants from time to time. While I consider our program a great clinical one that trains excellent clinicians and surgeons, in most applicants’ minds we’re a low tier program. With that in mind, whenever we see an applicant from the West Coast or mid Atlantic/Northeast, guess what we do? Straight to trash bin, no application refund (SFMatch thanks your donation to their yearly bonuses).

I agree and believe that your odds are best to match in your home region or a region you have ties to, but my point was to encourage OP to cast a wide net and apply broadly. Because there are no signals or regional preferences, even though your program may not consider students with no ties, many do. With that said, I’ll reveal that I wrote some pretty convincing personalized personal statements and wrote secondary applications for many of the schools that interviewed me without ties, and I do not think that was a coincidence. With respect to the tier of school, I don’t think that had much to do with it because I primarily received interviews from middle and lower tier programs. Truly random programs (where I had no ties and did not write a personalized PS) were primarily low tier which I think was merely a reflection of my slightly below average step score and low research output.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

Any consensus on LOR numbers?
I’ve read it could be 3 ophtho or 2 ophtho + 1 IM or Surgery. I have a strong LOR from IM but not sure if I should save that one for if I dual apply to IM.

I had 3 Ophtho LOR - home PD. Away PD. Ophtho research mentor, with whom I had 2 ophtho papers as first author. IM Attendings, I had which I had kep for my IM dual application.

Having said that, you should have LOR from your strongest and longest connection. Getting LOR from away PD with 1 month association, dont know if it was best idea for me, even though I did it to open that region and get that Intervoew as well.

 

[medschoolaspirant]

1. People talk, and the medical world is smaller than you think. PDs meet for various reasons and sometimes lists are compared. You might get away with it, you might not. Anecdotally every applicant I know that has dual applied never got into ophthalmology.

This is far from the truth. There are so many people last season who all were middle of pack on discord dual applying and matching ophtho. Myself included. Middle of pack applicant should dual apply. Nothing wrong with it, as long as you see yourself doing other speciality, and your primary aim is to match.

 

[Slide]

This is far from the truth. There are so many people last season who all were middle of pack on discord dual applying and matching ophtho. Myself included. Middle of pack applicant should dual apply. Nothing wrong with it, as long as you see yourself doing other speciality, and your primary aim is to match.

Sure, I’ll stand corrected this year. Just telling you from our side in previous years many dual applicants from our program or from elsewhere didn’t match in general (we can see the match list, and I knew some of these applicants). With virtual interviews the rank algorithms have made the recent match lists odd.

 

[Slide]

So is it safe to say, unless you're really a top tier applicant, you will most likely match at programs within the vicinity of your home med school - even if I'm from the west coast, if my med school is in the south, I will have to best chances near the south?

In general, yes. South/east coast programs below Maryland and Midwest programs may be your best bet. Wouldn’t hurt to do a California rotation, just understand these are highly coveted and competitive spots, and you need to one of the best applicants in your program or have a strong connection to it. Cali being your home state does give you an in so it’s worth a shot.

Keep in mind that while you may get interviews at farther away locations, your chances still aren’t great at matching. I had interviews in Boston and Philly and in retrospect I didn’t have much of a chance getting ranked competitively unless something drastic occurred (which is certainly possible!). Also, be careful about some of these interviews - some of these programs will accept applicants from far away, but there may be a reason (very malignant, poorly run, multiple ACGME violations, etc). One program in particular when I was an applicant fell into this category and got shut down for a while a few years after.

 

[goldenfloofers]

In general, yes. South/east coast programs below Maryland and Midwest programs may be your best bet. Wouldn’t hurt to do a California rotation, just understand these are highly coveted and competitive spots, and you need to one of the best applicants in your program or have a strong connection to it. Cali being your home state does give you an in so it’s worth a shot.

Keep in mind that while you may get interviews at farther away locations, your chances still aren’t great at matching. I had interviews in Boston and Philly and in retrospect I didn’t have much of a chance getting ranked competitively unless something drastic occurred (which is certainly possible!). Also, be careful about some of these interviews - some of these programs will accept applicants from far away, but there may be a reason (very malignant, poorly run, multiple ACGME violations, etc). One program in particular when I was an applicant felt into this category and got shut down for a while a few years after.

Your point about Boston and Philly is the reason I’ve held off on applying to even the lower tier programs like Temple or UMass just because it’s probably best to maximize my Midwest programs (and some west), not the east coast.

Would you say knowing previous residents of a specific program can help or be used to highlight more ties? I did a research project with a retina fellow and he did residency at a Midwest program that I was planning on doing an away at

 

[Slide]

Your point about Boston and Philly is the reason I’ve held off on applying to even the lower tier programs like Temple or UMass just because it’s probably best to maximize my Midwest programs (and some west), not the east coast.

Would you say knowing previous residents of a specific program can help or be used to highlight more ties? I did a research project with a retina fellow and he did residency at a Midwest program that I was planning on doing an away at

It might help but it’s more helpful if you have an interview. Residents and fellows usually aren’t that involved in the initial selection process for an interview.

 

[goldenfloofers]

It might help but it’s more helpful if you have an interview. Residents and fellows usually aren’t that involved in the initial selection process for an interview.

Okay if I get an away rotation there I was hoping to meet with the PD and mention the publication I had with him. Not sure if doing an away necessarily leads to an interview but anything might help

 

[eyeeye_captain]

I think an underrated comment is Slide also mentioning tier bias. Name brand programs know that people will pack up and move to them. Middle and lower tier, it’s less likely and you don’t want to go way down your match list. They’re more likely to try to attract the locals. I was told by a mid/low program PD out of my region that they knew there was no way I’d go there. This may not be completely true at the very low tier spots if they’re trying to avoid having an unmatched position.

That all leads to people seeing the same fellow interviewees at pretty much every stop. I don’t know how many buckets there are, but you end up in one.