K Grant salary negotiations

[Ollie123]

Anyone gone through this process recently and willing to discuss numbers? Or...perhaps more to the point...how they went about having that conversation? I'd appreciate a PM if so (unless you are comfortable posting publicly).

I'm finding the situation very awkward since I'm essentially trying to negotiate a raise for a job that I will be offered on paper but everyone knows only actually manifests if I get the grant. Using money that they technically aren't responsible for paying anyways since I have to cover the salary myself. So generally speaking....as long as I'm under the cap it shouldn't have much impact on them. Just seems a strange situation relative to normal salary negotiations. I don't mind sharing that I'm expecting something in the ballpark of 80k. That has seemed pretty much the standard for newly minted PhDs and the folks I've discussed it with were all getting around that to start...but I'm not sure how representative a sample they may be.

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[smalltownpsych]

I have always thought of that as a good figure for a starter. That was what I asked for as a newly licensed psychologist. I would ask for 85k though. After all, why not? I regretted not asking for 85 when I signed on for that job. Especially two years later when they offered me a 2k raise.

p.s. just wanted to clarify this was for a clinical position with a private company, but I think the same general principle that psychologists need to ask for more still applies

 

[deleted343839]

What type of setting are we talking about? An AMC? The numbers depend a lot on the local market, but your best source of info will be people within that institution. Assuming your mentor is in the same institution or closely affiliated, perhaps they could advise you on a typical starting salary range? Or you could cozy up to some of the existing junior faculty and get the lowdown? Surely not everyone is that tight lipped about it.

I don't think 85K is at all unreasonable and I wouldn't rule out 90K depending on the environment (eg, an appointment in a medical department).

 

[Ollie123]

Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear but this is an AMC in a fairly moderate cost-of-living area. I'm asking around here as well, but I've heard they tend to run low so part of my motivation in asking is to get a sense of whether my expectations are unusually high (seems not based on current n = 2).

90k is the cap so anything beyond would need to be covered by the institution, which can introduce oddities with annual raises. Though I'm still somewhat unclear if I can exceed the cap by reducing my effort below 100% and doing additional clinical work to make up the difference. I wouldn't mind maintaining a half-day or so of patients, would probably be good to stay fresh clinically.

 

[deleted343839]

Though I'm still somewhat unclear if I can exceed the cap by reducing my effort below 100% and doing additional clinical work to make up the difference. I wouldn't mind maintaining a half-day or so of patients, would probably be good to stay fresh clinically.

The other option is that you could have a small practice outside the institution and leave them out of your clinical work altogether (assuming they don't make you enter a restrictive covenant, which would be a bit weird for a research track position). I doubt that putting in 10 or 20 percent clinical effort would change the salary picture much if at all. You'd probably net more with a small outside practice.

 

[str63]

I thought the salary cap on K grants was $75k? Anything beyond that your institution is responsible for - unless something changed recently that I'm unaware of!

 

[Ollie123]

I thought the salary cap on K grants was $75k? Anything beyond that your institution is responsible for - unless something changed recently that I'm unaware of!

Varies by institute. http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/contacts/parent_K01.html

 

[smalltownpsych]

Maybe ask for the cap then. After all, you are going to be rocking it so you deserve the max. That's how we did it in the business world. When you are bringing in the big grant money and increasing the rep of their institution, should they really be quibbling over a few bucks. How much do the admin people make? Also, as so,some who has done hiring, if we want someone, we try our best to meet their request. If we can't meet it then we counter.

 

[Pragma]

As with anything see if there is data - regional salary data in this case. I know people who got hired at 90k after 1 postdoc year at amcs so the cap doesn't seem outlandish to me.

But don't you have to have the job before getting the K?

 

[Ollie123]

I'm in a non-regular rank faculty position. Get promoted to asst professor when I pull in funding. The normal route for a K is to write one as a post-doc so you can "stay" and the department generates a letter saying that you are on the path to be promoted regardless of whether or not the grant goes through. Which everyone last reviewer knows is bunk, but that is bureaucracy for you

I do know a few people who wrote one as an assistant professor, but that seems pretty unusual. Usually it seems to be MDs who have relatively little research training and are hired in as clinical faculty initially.

 

[cmuhooligan]

...90k is the cap so anything beyond would need to be covered by the institution, which can introduce oddities with annual raises. Though I'm still somewhat unclear if I can exceed the cap by reducing my effort below 100% and doing additional clinical work to make up the difference. I wouldn't mind maintaining a half-day or so of patients, would probably be good to stay fresh clinically.

NIMH (at least back in the day) would allow you to go down to 75% effort on a K, so, you could max out the 90k from NIMH at 75% effort, with a higher base salary ($120,000), if your department will support you the additional 25% in clinical work. My former department did that, although I was at a 90/10% research/clinic balance.

 

[LM02]

NIMH (at least back in the day) would allow you to go down to 75% effort on a K, so, you could max out the 90k from NIMH at 75% effort, with a higher base salary ($120,000), if your department will support you the additional 25% in clinical work. My former department did that, although I was at a 90/10% research/clinic balance.

This is one option, but keep in mind that all COL increases would have to apply only to your non-K salary. The bigger issue will be equity - your department will need to demonstrate to certain administrative offices (Dean of the Medical School, HR, etc) that they are "hiring" you within salary range similar to what other starting Asst Profs at your level (PhD, research, K-funded). We have this issue in our dept, even at the higher ranks, and it can be political. For example, if our salaries are somewhat "inflated," they will impact other depts in the medical school, which then have to raise their own salaries to match. And the Chairs of those depts (esp those whose depts are more hard $$) might not be happy about that. So there's a lot of back-and-forth at the level of the Dean's office to keep things in check.