Leave out rec letter from PI, or send in potentially mediocre letter?

[jwmd]

Hi, everyone. I know there are a few threads on this topic, but none seemed very close to my situation, so I hope it's okay for me to post this. Your advice is very much appreciated!

I have been doing research in the same lab since second semester of freshman year, and was planning to ask my PI to write me a letter of rec. However, she hasn't been very happy with me lately because I haven't been coming in as much as I did before. This was because my classes were much more time-consuming than I had expected, and- more importantly- I'll be taking the MCAT soon, so studying takes up a huge chunk of my time (as I'm sure many of you can relate with). I think my PI tends to compare me with the other undergrad, who spends more time in lab and wants to get a PhD, so she's very focused on research.

Aside from the other undergrad and a post doc who left last year, there isn't anyone else that I'm very close with in this lab. I think I will ask her if she can write me a good letter, but am afraid that she may include something negative. What should I do if I think she won't write me a positive letter? Would you recommend sending some schools her letter and leaving it out for others just in case, or just not sending it in at all? And is there any way to determine whether or not I should send in the letter aside from reading it myself? My school doesn't have a committee or anything, so I'm wondering who would be able to take a look if it really comes to that. Thanks!

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[jwmd]

The thing is, I'm not using her letter of rec to fulfill one of the requirements, as there are several professors that I am planning to ask for those. I'm worried about not getting a letter from her because I have been doing research with her for so long, and I feel like schools would expect her to be the first person I ask. Some of the schools that I'm looking at also seem to care quite a bit about research...

Could any of you give some advice on the rest of the questions I had? Thanks!

 

[kanda1o]

The thing is, I'm not using her letter of rec to fulfill one of the requirements, as there are several professors that I am planning to ask for those. I'm worried about not getting a letter from her because I have been doing research with her for so long, and I feel like schools would expect her to be the first person I ask. Some of the schools that I'm looking at also seem to care quite a bit about research...

Could any of you give some advice on the rest of the questions I had? Thanks!

I volunteered and worked in a lab at my universities medical school. During the time I was there, our PI became very consumed with the administrative side of the med school (changing dean's incoming faculty, it was a new school) and he wasn't always in the lab. I ended up asking our post-doc to write me a strong letter after talking to the PI. Basically, the PI and I agreed that he wouldn't really be able to write me a strong enough letter, but after talking with him and the post-doc, it was clear that the post-doc could. Maybe you can ask your post-doc? If you are close with him/her, that is.

 

[Cookiess]

Have your contributions to your research lab resulted in any tangible outcomes (ex. poster presentation, publication, etc.)? Are you planning to list your research as one of your three most meaningful activities? If yes, I would consider asking your PI for a LOR.

It sounds like you have invested a fair amount of time and work into this research lab. Maybe you can have an honest meeting with your PI and discuss how she feels about your contributions to the lab. See how she responds and if she seems open to writing you a strong LOR.

 

[dreee]

Hi, everyone. I know there are a few threads on this topic, but none seemed very close to my situation, so I hope it's okay for me to post this. Your advice is very much appreciated!

I have been doing research in the same lab since second semester of freshman year, and was planning to ask my PI to write me a letter of rec. However, she hasn't been very happy with me lately because I haven't been coming in as much as I did before. This was because my classes were much more time-consuming than I had expected, and- more importantly- I'll be taking the MCAT soon, so studying takes up a huge chunk of my time (as I'm sure many of you can relate with). I think my PI tends to compare me with the other undergrad, who spends more time in lab and wants to get a PhD, so she's very focused on research.

Aside from the other undergrad and a post doc who left last year, there isn't anyone else that I'm very close with in this lab. I think I will ask her if she can write me a good letter, but am afraid that she may include something negative. What should I do if I think she won't write me a positive letter? Would you recommend sending some schools her letter and leaving it out for others just in case, or just not sending it in at all? And is there any way to determine whether or not I should send in the letter aside from reading it myself? My school doesn't have a committee or anything, so I'm wondering who would be able to take a look if it really comes to that. Thanks!

You sound like my pre-med twin. I was in a very similar situation. Doing research for 2 yrs, then my last semester, the relationship between my PI and I became less than "ideal". I knew I needed an LOR from research because spending 2 yrs there without an LOR would just look suspicious. I asked a post-doc that I had been working directly under for the 2 yrs to write me one. No schools during my IIs asked me why not an LOR from my PI. I'm glad I had him do it because he knew me better and our relationship was amicable. Even if my PI and I hadn't had a falling out, I think he was a better LOR writer for me than my PI.

If the relationship between you and your PI seems beyond repair, or you know your PI may not write a letter as strong as he/she could have before, then ask a post-doc that truly knows you better to write one.

 

[jwmd]

I volunteered and worked in a lab at my universities medical school. During the time I was there, our PI became very consumed with the administrative side of the med school (changing dean's incoming faculty, it was a new school) and he wasn't always in the lab. I ended up asking our post-doc to write me a strong letter after talking to the PI. Basically, the PI and I agreed that he wouldn't really be able to write me a strong enough letter, but after talking with him and the post-doc, it was clear that the post-doc could. Maybe you can ask your post-doc? If you are close with him/her, that is.

Thanks for the suggestion! I was fairly close to the post-doc, but he left last year and we haven't really kept in contact since.

 

[jwmd]

Have your contributions to your research lab resulted in any tangible outcomes (ex. poster presentation, publication, etc.)? Are you planning to list your research as one of your three most meaningful activities? If yes, I would consider asking your PI for a LOR.

It sounds like you have invested a fair amount of time and work into this research lab. Maybe you can have an honest meeting with your PI and discuss how she feels about your contributions to the lab. See how she responds and if she seems open to writing you a strong LOR.

A poster presentation, and another one coming up, but no publications. I think I will, because I put in more time into research than I do any other extracurricular activity.. That's a good method of deciding whether or not to get a rec letter- three most meaningful activities. Thanks for the advice- I think I'll do that!

 

[jwmd]

Update- I've been putting a lot of effort and time into research, but unfortunately have had troubles getting any consistent results. I'm applying next cycle, and am not sure if I can completely bring the relationship between my PI and me back to what it was. At this point, she's having trouble getting grants, and is relying on me to get a lot of preliminary data so she can write one up, so me having trouble forming effective protocol and getting results has made her even more annoyed...

There are no post-docs in our lab (I tried contacting the one who was here about a year and a half ago, but his email must have changed)- just 2 grad students and one other undergrad, so I would have to get a letter from my PI if I want one for research.. But I'm very worried that she will include something negative in there, as she has been making offhand comments about productivity and trying even harder, etc. What can I do? By the time I apply, I will have been in this lab for several years- wouldn't adcoms be suspicious if I don't get a LOR from her? But if it is negative, then that could ruin my otherwise good application.

Please help!

 

[mw18]

Update- I've been putting a lot of effort and time into research, but unfortunately have had troubles getting any consistent results. I'm applying next cycle, and am not sure if I can completely bring the relationship between my PI and me back to what it was. At this point, she's having trouble getting grants, and is relying on me to get a lot of preliminary data so she can write one up, so me having trouble forming effective protocol and getting results has made her even more annoyed...

There are no post-docs in our lab (I tried contacting the one who was here about a year and a half ago, but his email must have changed)- just 2 grad students and one other undergrad, so I would have to get a letter from my PI if I want one for research.. But I'm very worried that she will include something negative in there, as she has been making offhand comments about productivity and trying even harder, etc. What can I do? By the time I apply, I will have been in this lab for several years- wouldn't adcoms be suspicious if I don't get a LOR from her? But if it is negative, then that could ruin my otherwise good application.

Please help!

You're in a tough situation. I didn't have the time in the same lab that you do, but I had a situation with my PI and didn't ask them for a letter. I got accepted to a few private, research universities. Nobody ever asked about it at interviews. I would leave it out. My situation was different in that there was zero chance of me asking.

 

[aldol16]

Here are your options, in my opinion. Research-oriented schools will want letters from PIs you've worked with, whether explicitly or not. If the programs are research-oriented, they will definitely want some sort of PI letter. So if you're applying to a research-oriented program (I'm thinking something like Cleveland Clinic), then not having a PI letter could appear highly suspect.

If you list your research experience as one of your most significant activities on your AMCAS and don't have a PI letter from that experience, then it could also be seen as suspect. One way to get around this would be to downplay the significance of the research experience and not highlight it in your application. This would make your lack of a PI letter less noticeable.

Of course, the best case scenario would be to have a good letter from your PI. Have you talked to your PI about your time commitment? It seems that most PIs would understand if you have a tough courseload, etc. if you came to lab less.

 

[Commer_Knocker]

Usually people don't write negative letters; it's happened, but it's RARE.

If you have less than three letters, you probably need it even if it's mediocre. If you have a requisite three, then go for quality over quantity.

 

[mw18]

Usually people don't write negative letters; it's happened, but it's RARE.

If you have less than three letters, you probably need it even if it's mediocre. If you have a requisite three, then go for quality over quantity.

I agree, but I think lukewarm is almost as bad as negative after a three year relationship though.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

It's becoming extremely irritating to me as the years go by how much PIs rely on undergraduate results and how they hold LORs over their head about it.

Undergrads are there to learn. Not be slave labor. It's so incredibly annoying to hear that students are independently expected to get preliminary data- this is the job of a grad student.

Sorry, OP. Been in similar situations my entire research career. I get put on projects that are typical for postdocs (as noted by the postdocs surprised that i have such difficult projects) and as such have no pubs and probably lukewarm LOR.

Meanwhile, most of my friends have great LORs and pubs and have barely idea what they have done/are not very good researchers. It's why I tend to roll my eyes at the secret requirement that med applicants should have publications.

Just gotta grin and bear it. Try to talk to your PI. A lot of times they simply don't realize what a death sentence a lukewarm letter is.

 

[jwmd]

You're in a tough situation. I didn't have the time in the same lab that you do, but I had a situation with my PI and didn't ask them for a letter. I got accepted to a few private, research universities. Nobody ever asked about it at interviews. I would leave it out. My situation was different in that there was zero chance of me asking.

Would you mind sharing how long you were in that lab? I will be in this lab for about 3 years by the time I apply, so I'm trying to decide if it would be too long not to have a letter.. If it were 1 year or so, I wouldn't worry about one at all..

 

[rolliespring]

If your school has a premed committee that will be sending out composite letters, I think the potential negative aspects of your PI's letter may be overlooked. Work on your relationship with your PI since you still have time.

 

[mw18]

Would you mind sharing how long you were in that lab? I will be in this lab for about 3 years by the time I apply, so I'm trying to decide if it would be too long not to have a letter.. If it were 1 year or so, I wouldn't worry about one at all..

Yeah it was a little less than a year.

 

[jwmd]

Here are your options, in my opinion. Research-oriented schools will want letters from PIs you've worked with, whether explicitly or not. If the programs are research-oriented, they will definitely want some sort of PI letter. So if you're applying to a research-oriented program (I'm thinking something like Cleveland Clinic), then not having a PI letter could appear highly suspect.

If you list your research experience as one of your most significant activities on your AMCAS and don't have a PI letter from that experience, then it could also be seen as suspect. One way to get around this would be to downplay the significance of the research experience and not highlight it in your application. This would make your lack of a PI letter less noticeable.

Of course, the best case scenario would be to have a good letter from your PI. Have you talked to your PI about your time commitment? It seems that most PIs would understand if you have a tough courseload, etc. if you came to lab less.

Would you consider all of the top 20 schools research-oriented, since they're ranked by research?
I wanted to bring up how much time I spend in the lab, but was afraid it would come off as though I were complaining. I am usually in there when she isn't (early morning, at night, and on weekends due to class), and I did mention that a few months ago, but I'm not sure she knows just how much time I spend doing research. I don't think she cares very much how much time I spend though, as she just wants results.

I think she was much more understanding at first, but when I started getting less data (mostly because I've been having problems creating protocols that consistently work), she became disappointed. She seemed to have really high expectations bc of my earlier work, and is thinking that I am now slacking off since things aren't going as well for me anymore.

 

[jwmd]

It's becoming extremely irritating to me as the years go by how much PIs rely on undergraduate results and how they hold LORs over their head about it.

Undergrads are there to learn. Not be slave labor. It's so incredibly annoying to hear that students are independently expected to get preliminary data- this is the job of a grad student.

Sorry, OP. Been in similar situations my entire research career. I get put on projects that are typical for postdocs (as noted by the postdocs surprised that i have such difficult projects) and as such have no pubs and probably lukewarm LOR.

Meanwhile, most of my friends have great LORs and pubs and have barely idea what they have done/are not very good researchers. It's why I tend to roll my eyes at the secret requirement that med applicants should have publications.

Just gotta grin and bear it. Try to talk to your PI. A lot of times they simply don't realize what a death sentence a lukewarm letter is.

Thanks for the advice! And I'm so glad someone else understands what I'm going through! All of the other undergrads I know are working on projects that are already connected to grants, or they are helping a grad student/postdoc. I almost feel like we were screwed over; there is absolutely no chance of this project being published before I graduate since I am still here trying to come up with the methods to obtain the most basic data for it.

Do you have any recommendations for bringing the LOR topic up and letting her know that I really can't afford to have a lukewarm- let alone negative- letter? I agree that it is important to discuss this with her, but clearly our relationship is already strained, and I would hate to make it even worse.

 

[raf1ki]

Watching this thread for a similar situation.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Thanks for the advice! And I'm so glad someone else understands what I'm going through! All of the other undergrads I know are working on projects that are already connected to grants, or they are helping a grad student/postdoc. I almost feel like we were screwed over; there is absolutely no chance of this project being published before I graduate since I am still here trying to come up with the methods to obtain the most basic data for it.

Do you have any recommendations for bringing the LOR topic up and letting her know that I really can't afford to have a lukewarm- let alone negative- letter? I agree that it is important to discuss this with her, but clearly our relationship is already strained, and I would hate to make it even worse.

You just gotta be frank, to be honest.

Just be very polite and honest. Try to appear to be as transparent/least manipulative as possible. If anything, just try to gauge if your PI would actually write you a good letter (this happened to me with one PI...even though I was stuck with protein purification issues for months I still got a good letter of Rec). Dont ask for one, just SEE if you are getting one.