Let's Buy a Dental Practice

[Phlogicyde]

This might be a stupid question, but how exactly do you find a "good" office manager? I just seems like it would be a niche profession. Do you specifically look for someone with experience in managing a dental office (would there be that many out there looking for a job)? Do you look for someone with management experience or education and expect to teach them the dental stuff they'll need? Or do you go the other way and teach the business stuff to someone with dental experience, such as a dental assistant?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[New2Philly]

Also, how much do OM's get paid? (On AVG)

 

[The Hammer]

I know I'm not the one you're asking...but my opinion is YES x 1000 it's worth having a good one. I'm on my second OM in 12 months. I have an accounting background, and I'm not intimidated by the business aspect of running a dentist practice. But, the amount of work required to stay on top of EVERYTHING is impossible to comprehend until you've experienced. As a dentist in Houston that accepts most all PPO insurance plans, I have to stay on top of claims. Insurance companies don't always pay as implied. Takes mucho work. So hire a good OM and you're life will be better.

Nothing speaks like experiences does it? I agree 200% with what my brother in dentistry says here. Docs who micromanage every aspect of their practice increase their stress while decreasing their income and productivity. My non-compete agreement with my ex-parnter stipulated that I pay him $5000 for hiring my OM away from him and it was worth every penny.

Today is my first day back in private practice so when I get home tonight I'll talk about what goes into finding a great OM.

 

[abam]

Hey guys,

seems like I'm moving to Canada from Russia as a permanent resident and will get Canadian green card analogue.

Anybody knows if any bank in Canada would give me a loan for opening a practice after I pass all the necessary dental exams and allowed to practice in Canada? (Considering I won't have my own real estate and relatives in Canada)

Thanks!

 

[mikebarrdds]

The Hammer invited me over here. He mentioned there may be some interest in website marketing for a dental practice. It happens to be one of my passions. But, I also don't want to hijack this thread. If anyone is interested, we can start a new thread dedicated to that topic.

Mike

 

[IdahoDoc]

The Hammer invited me over here. He mentioned there may be some interest in website marketing for a dental practice. It happens to be one of my passions. But, I also don't want to hijack this thread. If anyone is interested, we can start a new thread dedicated to that topic.

Mike

Feel free to start a new thread. I think it anything you have to share with us would be great. Thanks

 

[youknowthedrill]

You're going to be so busy when your old patients find out you're back! I hope you still have time to post on SDN. Just curious, how far is the new office from the old one?

 

[The Hammer]

You're going to be so busy when your old patients find out you're back! I hope you still have time to post on SDN. Just curious, how far is the new office from the old one?

About a 10 minute drive Tomorrow my newspaper ads run letting the rest of the world know that I am back in practice. I can't wait

 

[The Hammer]

The Hammer invited me over here. He mentioned there may be some interest in website marketing for a dental practice. It happens to be one of my passions. But, I also don't want to hijack this thread. If anyone is interested, we can start a new thread dedicated to that topic.

Mike

Mike is THE MAN. You need to check out his website

http://www.palmbeach-smiles.com/

I met Mike back in the good ol' days over at Dentaltown. He is very very savvy when it comes to making a dental practice stand out from the offices around it. Mike also shares my need for speed and we both have a common bond in the love of our dental alma mater UT Memphis Dental School

 

[zriceman]

About a 10 minute drive Tomorrow my newspaper ads run letting the rest of the world know that I am back in practice. I can't wait

man i'd hate to be in your ex-partners shoes

 

[ducksfly]

first of all, this thread is absolutely amazing. incredible resource. i've got a question, hammer. when you hire a hygienist does their education level matter? what do you look for when hiring a hygienist? id obviously like to make the right decision the first time when i'm looking to hire someone, and its kinda hard to find info on such things.

 

[The Hammer]

first of all, this thread is absolutely amazing. incredible resource. i've got a question, hammer. when you hire a hygienist does their education level matter? what do you look for when hiring a hygienist? id obviously like to make the right decision the first time when i'm looking to hire someone, and its kinda hard to find info on such things.

In my state they have to have at least an associates degree from an ADA accredited program to be an RDH. Then I look at how much experience working in a dental office that they have. But to me the most important thing is does their personality and work ethic fit the dynamic of my office. Finding someone who takes pride in their work and has an outstanding personality is of the upmost importance when I am hiring anyone for my office

 

[DrReo]

The Hammer, do you feel it'd be worthwhile to take some classes, or even a certificate, in financial planning? There are many online routes and I feel doing this at a young age could be a worthwhile time investment. What's your opinion?

 

[zabolekar]

Don't despair, luckily I'm better at dentistry than math. You will have $11,539 after debt service, not $3539. Sorry about that.

Unless the dentist does owner financing, 7 years is the norm. You might be able to get a longer loan but I haven't heard of it. As far as taxes go it depends on too many factors for me to be able to make a guess but when you are paying off debts a good accountant will use those to your advantage to keep you from paying too much in taxes. At one point I know that my tax rate approached about 30% of my total income but I had no children, no debt and was making a hell of a lot more than 11K a month

But if you live in southern california or other high-rent area your typical lease might be ~6000 for such a practice, $11539-$6000=$5539.

5539-tax should be 4000-4600. Finally, minus student loans (~4600) on a 10-year plan (assuming 360K): 4600-4600= 0

 

[The Hammer]

But if you live in southern california or other high-rent area your typical lease might be ~6000 for such a practice, $11539-$6000=$5539.

5539-tax should be 4000-4600. Finally, minus student loans (~4600) on a 10-year plan (assuming 360K): 4600-4600= 0

Then don't live in Southern Cali, problem solved. Go where the money is

 

[flapaTron]

Hammer, have you begun to see the effects of your ad that you placed 2 weeks ago?

 

[The Hammer]

Hammer, have you begun to see the effects of your ad that you placed 2 weeks ago?

Yes and it did have the effect that I wanted. My old patients now know where I am and have started calling for appointments. But here is the funny thing. The patient's that have called so far all need work and want me to do it. They still want to return to my old hygienists for their cleanings. I may have to try and bring one or more of them on board as well.

Also the doctor that I bought the practice from was very much in the "patch'em up" phase of his practice. I have had more crowns to do than I would have thought this early into owning the practice

 

[Alegna86]

Hammer, I know you are probably really busy but I wanna hear your advice on finding a good office manager.
I absolutely love this thread!

 

[The Hammer]

Hammer, I know you are probably really busy but I wanna hear your advice on finding a good office manager.
I absolutely love this thread!

I'm flying to Atlanta to see my girlfriend this weekend so I imagine I'll be sitting in the Atlanta airport for a while. I will try to tell you what has worked for me in the past in finding a good office manager while I am waiting this weekend.

 

[Alegna86]

I'm flying to Atlanta to see my girlfriend this weekend so I imagine I'll be sitting in the Atlanta airport for a while. I will try to tell you what has worked for me in the past in finding a good office manager while I am waiting this weekend.

Awesome! I look forward to reading it!

 

[The Hammer]

Awesome! I look forward to reading it!

OK I am finally taking some time off for Thanksgiving so I think I will post 'How to hire good employees" and also address the OM question. I really apologize about neglecting this thread but that's what happens when you open a new practice.

 

[chumpe]

check your PM box

Dr. Hammer

Can I have a copy of what he got?

 

[The Hammer]

Dr. Hammer

Can I have a copy of what he got?

You can if you can tell me what it was I sent. I don't remember

 

[The Hammer]

OK I've finally found time to post so I'll give you an update on where I'm at and what's going on with my new practice

So just to recap:

I found a practice to buy, Practice price was $239,000.
I had no collateral, $300,000 in unsecured debt and about $80,000 in cash.
I got a loan from Matsco for $300,000 for 10 years at 6.25%

Heres how I spent the money:

$239,000 went for the practice
$61,000 went for new equipment (digital x-ray, computers etc)

What I didn't know was that the old dentist's hand instruments came over on the ark with Noah and the old doc didn't use any of the supplies that I used with the exception of patient napkins and 2X2 gauze. So...............

$60,000 went towards more equipment, more supplies and marketing

So that left me with $20,000 for working capital and to live on

Now if you are wondering if I was worried about my financial state given that I have been in private practice for 17 years and have run a successful dental practice before the answer is no, I wasn't nervous.

I was ****ting bricks. Big, big bricks.

It doesn't matter what I had done in the past I was already $360,000 in the hole in addition to the $300,000 debt my ex-wife left me with before I had seen patient one. It doesn't matter if I was Frank ****ing Spear that is a hell of a position to be in.

The point that I'm trying to make is this; Even though I know that only 4% of dental practices fail, even though I have done this before when I was only 2 years out of dental school and even though I am a much better dentist and practice owner now than I was then if I have learned anything in these past two years is that nothing is a given and if I want to succeed in this new practice I need to attack it with the same intensity and attention that I did with my first practice. And when you are planning your success you should also be planning what you will do if your plan fails. So yeah I have had my freak out moments.

The good news is that I didn't let my fears stop me or keep me from doing what I needed to do to get this practice up and rolling. Even when I was sweating bullets I still knew that my chances of success were much greater than the possibility of my catastrophic failure. I know that eventually the practice will be rolling right along and I'll be fine. So when you find yourself in this same position that I'm in now you need to remember that you will be fine too. In fact if you don't believe it you can call me and I will tell you that you will be fine.

My next post I'll talk about my first month and a half tell you how things have worked out so far. Stay tuned...

 

[zriceman]

welcome back hammer

 

[The Hammer]

OK so the story continues. I started setting up shop at the end of September. It took until the last two weeks of October before I could actually see patients although I did do a few dentures during that time.

When my computers were finally installed and up and running and the digital x-rays were going I started seeing patients. I had been running an ad in the two newspapers where my old patients were likely to see them. But this had an unexpected effected. My old patients still wanted to see the hygienists at my old practice. If they had any work diagnosed then they would make an appointment with me. The thing is most of my old patients were already in good shape so with the exception of a few who had been putting off getting some work done until I returned there wasn't a huge surge of my old patients needing treatment. Also I found out that the old docs fees are the absolute lowest in the area by a wide margin. Yikes!

But what saved me was this. The old doc was a world class patchodontist. All of his patients had several WFT amalgams (WFT= whole freaking tooth). I was seeing fractured teeth left and right. I was seeing at least 3 crowns in every patient that I checked in hygiene. Also there was a lot of under diagnosed perio going on as well ( I re-equiped the hygiene department with a new piezo scaler and all new hand scalers and probes). I was going to have plenty of work to do just on the current patient base without counting on any of my former patients. Thank You Baby Jesus!

In addition to that I had one of the periodontists who I use to restore implants for fly me out to San Diego to attend an "Advanced" restorative clinic at the Zimmer Implant factory all expenses paid. I also had one of the oral surgery groups that I use to work with bring the 3i rep by to wine and dine me and another oral surgery group is supposed to take me out next week. Why all the love I wondered? It turns out that there is a big rush to see who can be the first group to successfully market the "Clear Vision" style of "teeth in a day" in east Tennessee. There are only about 3 dentists in the area that have any experience with this type of restorative work and I am one of them.

Now the downside to all of this is that these are "future" revenue streams. They aren't paying off yet although they do make the 2011 look like it might be a good year. The good thing is that the patients have all taken to me very quickly. The old doc and I are both very similar in personality and I have allowed him to see as many patients as he wants to as an associate so the transition has been really nice and very well accepted by the patients. I also am the only dentist in town open on Wednesday afternoon and Fridays so that has helped as well. I have also had a steady stream of broken teeth to crown which has been a blessing.

My accountant and I had figured on me breaking even by the end of January. But I was already doing this by the end of November and December looks to be even better. I might even be able to pay myself a little this month.

My plans for the immediate future are pretty simple. At the end of this month I am going to begin a small but steady increase of the fees until they are where they need to be. Since I already have great patient acceptance I can do this without the "the new doc is trying to get rich" resistance that can happen when you buy a practice. One other thing that is going for me is that since the old doc is 70 and I am 44 I don't have the "He's just out of dental school and doesn't know anything" that new grads can face getting into practice.

So I'm not going broke at the moment but I'm not getting rich either. I still have my freak out moments over the money that I owe but those are getting fewer and further between. I also have a new girlfriend who I think is the most wonderful person in the world so that helps as well. 2011 is looking like it is going to be a great year and considering the incredible amount of hell that I have gone through the past two years it's about time that the sun shines on me again.

I'm sorry if I have left any questions unanswered but now I have a little more time to post and answer them if anyone is still reading this thread and has something that they want for me to explain. Hope you guys all have a great holiday season

 

[New2Philly]

OK so the story continues. I started setting up shop at the end of September. It took until the last two weeks of October before I could actually see patients although I did do a few dentures during that time.

When my computers were finally installed and up and running and the digital x-rays were going I started seeing patients. I had been running an ad in the two newspapers where my old patients were likely to see them. But this had an unexpected effected. My old patients still wanted to see the hygienists at my old practice. If they had any work diagnosed then they would make an appointment with me. The thing is most of my old patients were already in good shape so with the exception of a few who had been putting off getting some work done until I returned there wasn't a huge surge of my old patients needing treatment. Also I found out that the old docs fees are the absolute lowest in the area by a wide margin. Yikes!

But what saved me was this. The old doc was a world class patchodontist. All of his patients had several WFT amalgams (WFT= whole freaking tooth). I was seeing fractured teeth left and right. I was seeing at least 3 crowns in every patient that I checked in hygiene. Also there was a lot of under diagnosed perio going on as well ( I re-equiped the hygiene department with a new piezo scaler and all new hand scalers and probes). I was going to have plenty of work to do just on the current patient base without counting on any of my former patients. Thank You Baby Jesus!

In addition to that I had one of the periodontists who I use to restore implants for fly me out to San Diego to attend an "Advanced" restorative clinic at the Zimmer Implant factory all expenses paid. I also had one of the oral surgery groups that I use to work with bring the 3i rep by to wine and dine me and another oral surgery group is supposed to take me out next week. Why all the love I wondered? It turns out that there is a big rush to see who can be the first group to successfully market the "Clear Vision" style of "teeth in a day" in east Tennessee. There are only about 3 dentists in the area that have any experience with this type of restorative work and I am one of them.

Now the downside to all of this is that these are "future" revenue streams. They aren't paying off yet although they do make the 2011 look like it might be a good year. The good thing is that the patients have all taken to me very quickly. The old doc and I are both very similar in personality and I have allowed him to see as many patients as he wants to as an associate so the transition has been really nice and very well accepted by the patients. I also am the only dentist in town open on Wednesday afternoon and Fridays so that has helped as well. I have also had a steady stream of broken teeth to crown which has been a blessing.

My accountant and I had figured on me breaking even by the end of January. But I was already doing this by the end of November and December looks to be even better. I might even be able to pay myself a little this month.

My plans for the immediate future are pretty simple. At the end of this month I am going to begin a small but steady increase of the fees until they are where they need to be. Since I already have great patient acceptance I can do this without the "the new doc is trying to get rich" resistance that can happen when you buy a practice. One other thing that is going for me is that since the old doc is 70 and I am 44 I don't have the "He's just out of dental school and doesn't know anything" that new grads can face getting into practice.

So I'm not going broke at the moment but I'm not getting rich either. I still have my freak out moments over the money that I owe but those are getting fewer and further between. I also have a new girlfriend who I think is the most wonderful person in the world so that helps as well. 2011 is looking like it is going to be a great year and considering the incredible amount of hell that I have gone through the past two years it's about time that the sun shines on me again.

I'm sorry if I have left any questions unanswered but now I have a little more time to post and answer them if anyone is still reading this thread and has something that they want for me to explain. Hope you guys all have a great holiday season

Thanks for the candor. I am glad things are looking up.

 

[DentinBond]

Sounds like a great start. And for heaven's sakes, Hammer, now is the time to read Seth Godin's The Purple Cow and Free Prize Inside. Before you start spending $ on advertising...

I'll post a quote of his here. But before I do that, consider:
-Are you doing personal interviews (where your staff talks to your new patients, rather than handing them a clipboard?) Original concept is by Dr. Dick Barnes. I love hearing him say in his lectures, "Eye to eye, knee to knee...." In your transition situation, heck I'd do these on exisitng patients too. We're now going to start doing personal interviews at 5 year intervals (with the new full mouth series that occurs at around that interval) instead of just once when patients are new.
-How do you reward patients that refer other new patients?
-Is your website and, in fact, all your marketing about you, or your patients? This is a general question for everyone reading this thread; we now live in a world where we can't interrupt people to get their precious Attention; we have to earn it.

It's about emotional labor and Connection and providing Certainty; keep that in mind before you advertise to "the crowd". There was a part of this thread that delved into advertising before. A little advertising makes sense, but as my friend Anne McCrossan says, "A large media spend is now a symptom of operational dysfunction."

Also, you're gonna (we're all gonna) benefit from the "deferred maintenance" that people have been practicing as the economy went into its tailspin. Agree that 2011 should be a banner year almost everywhere for dentistry...

http://rickwilsondmd.typepad.com/rick_wilson_dmds_blog/2010/12/dental-economics-101-from-the-patients-standpoint.html

Here's the post from Seth's blog:

Reaching the unreachable

Marketing, I think, can be divided into two eras.
The first, the biggest, the baddest and the most impressive was the era in which marketers were able to reach the unreachable. Ads could be used to interrupt people who weren't intending to hear from you. PR could be used to get a story to show up on Oprah or in the paper, reaching people who weren't seeking you out.
Sure, there were exceptions to this model (the Yellow Pages and the classifieds, for example), but generally speaking, the biggest wins for a marketer happened in this arena.
We're watching it die.
The latest is the hand-wringing about the loss of the book review sections from major newspapers. Book publicists love these, because it's a way of putting your book in front of people who weren't looking for it. Oprah is a superstar because she has the power (the right? the expectation?) of regularly putting new ideas in front of people who weren't looking for that particular thing.
Super Bowl ads? Another example of spending big money to reach the unreachable. This is almost irresistible to marketers.
Notice the almost.
In the last few years, this model is being replaced. Call it permission if you want, or turning the world into the Yellow Pages. The web is astonishingly bad at reaching the unreachable. Years ago, the home page banner at Yahoo was the hottest property on the web. That's because lazy marketers could buy it and reach everyone.
Thanks to the Long Tail and to competition and to a billion websites and to busy schedules and selfish consumers, the unreachable are now truly unreachable.
If I want a book review, I'll go read one. If I want to learn about turntables, I'll go do that. Mass is still seductive, but mass is now so expensive, marketers are balking at buying it (notice how thin Time Magazine is these days? Nothing compared to Gourmet.)
And yet. And yet marketers still start every meeting and every memo with ideas about how to reach the unreachable. It's not in our nature to do what actually works: start making products, services and stories that appeal to the reachable. Then do your best to build that group ever larger. Not by yelling at them, but by serving them. Posted by Seth Godin on May 03, 2007

(Think about that "busy schedules and selfish consumers" and all that it implies...)

 

[The Hammer]

One more thing. I just finished this book and I highly recommend it to you as well. I just send a few copies to my friends who teach at the Scottsdale Center. I especially recommend that you pay careful attention to the chapter on Trust.

http://www.amazon.com/Ignore-Everybody-Other-Keys-Creativity/dp/159184259X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292102636&sr=8-1

 

[DentinBond]

Yow thanks for pointing us to this! MacLeod is awesome, didn't know he had a book out!

One more thing. I just finished this book and I highly recommend it to you as well. I just send a few copies to my friends who teach at the Scottsdale Center. I especially recommend that you pay careful attention to the chapter on Trust.

http://www.amazon.com/Ignore-Everyb...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292102636&sr=8-1

 

[yappy]

Do you guys actually get stuff from these books? I have always thought of them as a scheme to make money and not provide much substance - though have never read one myself. Are they legit or a load of BS like "The Secret" (Oprah liked that one )

 

[The Hammer]

Do you guys actually get stuff from these books? I have always thought of them as a scheme to make money and not provide much substance - though have never read one myself. Are they legit or a load of BS like "The Secret" (Oprah liked that one )

The overwhelmingly vast majority of them are total crap with maybe one or two essential truths that can be gleaned from them. To wit:

The Book----------------------------------- What to get from it.

1. Who Moved my Cheese?....................Change happens, get used to it.
2. Body for Life....................................Eat well and get some exercise
3. Go Fish...........................................You have to work so try to enjoy it
4.The Millionaire Next Door....................Work Hard and save your money
5. Rich Dad, Poor Dad...........................Work Hard and save your money
6. The Holy Bible..................................Don't be a dick to other people
7. The Zombie Survival Guide.................Shoot them in the head, don't let them bite you.

I can't even begin to tell you how many of these books that I have read over the past 20 years and for the most part I can think of maybe less than a dozen that I think are worth reading. I've posted a reading list before but I'll try to post another one in the next couple of days. If anyone has a really good book to recommend please post it.

 

[DentinBond]

Do you guys actually get stuff from these books? I have always thought of them as a scheme to make money and not provide much substance - though have never read one myself. Are they legit or a load of BS like "The Secret" (Oprah liked that one )

Sorry to take a shortcut but why type twice:

http://rickwilsondmd.typepad.com/rick_wilson_dmds_blog/2010/05/a-bakers-dozen-of-books-that-will-change-your-world.html

-If you read Seth's blog (www.sethgodin.typepad.com) once you might think it's kinda cool and then forget in a few days. If you read it for 6 months, you will be more successful and, more important, you will see the world with an amazing new clarity- you'll see what's real and what's fake... And no he keeps his books inexpensive, he makes most of his income by speaking engagements. I've studied with him twice and been to two of his book launches; he's the real deal.

-As for Chris Anderson of Wired magazine and Malcolm Gladwell of The New Yorker- their books may not relate directly to dentistry but they also alter your worldview to a point of far more clarity. You're less inclined to believe all the people out there who are trying to brainwash you to their own ends. In particular Anderson's The Long Tail will make you feel great about your dental practice if in fact it is remarkable.

Joel Bakan's The Corporation is vital because it teaches us precisely how not to run our dental practices.

As for Everett Rogers' The Diffusion of Innovations, which really underlies all these other works (and which forms the basis for my avatar here)- I view it as the most important secular book I've ever read. It explains how human beings actually do things in the world. It's technically a textbook and maybe not for everyone- but nothing comes close to it. Nothing.

 

[SoulPower]

Heya hammer, I just had a question regarding your old partner. He was a person whom you knew before he was in dental school right, probably a former patient even?

But regardless I was wondering if you would have taken the deal you offered him if you were him right out of dental school. I'm kind of in the same situation right now as I just got accepted to school next year and my family doctor, the one who got me into dentistry, offered me an associateship once I get out of school and I'm looking for some insight.

Thanks

 

[omaralt]

i've thought this through for a while and finally decided to reply..

i think what your doing is un-ethical. let me first explain my situation. i purchased a practice from a dear friend of mine who after only 3 yrs of pracatice was diagnosed with terminal cancer (at the age of 30). he purchased from an older dentist who was "moving away". this older dentist had been in the community (small town) for many years and was known around. at the end of the 3 yr restrictive covenent agreement signed (expired in 10/10) he decided to set up shop right next door to us. we knew that he had planned this from a year ago (real estate guy who sold him the building told us) and we even spoke to the board about it. they agreed it was extremely un-ethical and that we can bring him to peer mediation or something like that but at the end of the day it's not illegal. he did the same thing you did and took out a huge ad saying "dr. xxx is back!"; trying to lure our patients back to him. either way, this definitely left a bad taste in our mouths, but at the end of the day my office is new and modern while his has old used equipment and it's a tiny shack; so i'm not worried (havent seen a drop in revenue so far). and it also pushed us to up our advertising and lit a fire under us

my point is that when you sell an office to somebody it is under the assumption that your done working in that area. usually when you buy an office your not buying the equipment; your buying the patients; the office is worthless without patients. however to sell an office that you've been in for many years, and then come swooping in and try to get your old patients back is un-ethical and under-handed any way you put it. nothing personal against you, just wanted to let you know what i thought. good luck

 

[The Hammer]

i've thought this through for a while and finally decided to reply..

i think what your doing is un-ethical. let me first explain my situation. i purchased a practice from a dear friend of mine who after only 3 yrs of pracatice was diagnosed with terminal cancer (at the age of 30). he purchased from an older dentist who was "moving away". this older dentist had been in the community (small town) for many years and was known around. at the end of the 3 yr restrictive covenent agreement signed (expired in 10/10) he decided to set up shop right next door to us. we knew that he had planned this from a year ago (real estate guy who sold him the building told us) and we even spoke to the board about it. they agreed it was extremely un-ethical and that we can bring him to peer mediation or something like that but at the end of the day it's not illegal. he did the same thing you did and took out a huge ad saying "dr. xxx is back!"; trying to lure our patients back to him. either way, this definitely left a bad taste in our mouths, but at the end of the day my office is new and modern while his has old used equipment and it's a tiny shack; so i'm not worried (havent seen a drop in revenue so far). and it also pushed us to up our advertising and lit a fire under us

my point is that when you sell an office to somebody it is under the assumption that your done working in that area. usually when you buy an office your not buying the equipment; your buying the patients; the office is worthless without patients. however to sell an office that you've been in for many years, and then come swooping in and try to get your old patients back is un-ethical and under-handed any way you put it. nothing personal against you, just wanted to let you know what i thought. good luck

First you have no idea what my situation is and what transpired between my ex-partner and I that led up to our split and my selling him my half of the practice. You are making an assumption based on what little I have written in this thread about my situation and I can assure you that what I have written here is not even remotely the entire story of what occurred. To discuss in detail what eventually led to legal action between my ex-partner and I due to his violation of our contract on an open forum would be unethical.

Secondly I did not "set up shop" right next door to my former office. I am in a different city, a different county and about 23 miles away from my former office. My restrictive covenant was for 3 years and 3 miles. Even as the crow flies my new office is not even remotely close to violating that agreement. The county that my old practice was in has over 56,000 people for 8 dentists. The county that I am in now has 63,000 for 15 dentists. Despite my relocating back in the same region my ex-partner still has a more favorable dentist to population ratio than the national average.

Third despite your assurance that your post was "nothing personal" towards me, you accuse me of being "underhanded and unethical" for returning to practice and letting my old patients know through an ad in the local paper that I was back in the area. In fact you make that point more than once in your post. Making that kind of disparaging accusation about my character anonymously on an open forum without knowing anything more about the situation than what I posted is a personal attack and slanderous. You could have PM'd me to let me know your "thoughts" on what I did or you could have just thought that I was a douche bag and not said anything. But instead you decided to post that in your opinion what I did was "underhanded and unethical" in this thread. That is very personal, especially since I haven't made any real attempt to hide my identity or where my practice is located.

I'm sorry to hear that the dentist from whom your friend bought his practice from has decided to be a dick and screw you over. I wish that I could say that this sort of thing is uncommon for the new into practice dentists but it is not. The one thing that I will say is that karma is a bitch and one way or the other he'll get his just desserts. People who tend to be unethical in one area of their lives are usually unethical in all areas of their lives and it eventually catches up with them. Many faults I have but screwing people over is not one of them. Neither is dealing with people dishonestly.

I have tried to be open and honest about my experiences during this transition in the hopes that I can help the readers of this thread avoid some of the stress and pitfalls that can occur when you buy a dental practice. I've tried to answer any questions as best as I could and hopefully share some of the things that I have learned in the 17 years since I graduated dental school. But apparently the only thing that you have managed to get from the 12 pages of this thread is that I have dealt "underhandedly" with my former partner.

So I'll tell you what Omaralt, I'll leave this thread in your hands. I'm sure that you have plenty of insight into what makes a successful dental practice so I won't monopolize this thread with my thoughts any longer. Good luck.

 

[AchtungDent]

So I'm the sort that always reads blogs, forums, etc but never posts anything. However, I stumbled onto this thread last night and sat there reading the entire thing, woke up the this morning and am still thinking about all the great info and how it ended abruptly.

Dr. Hammer: I'd just like to say , "thank you." Not to be cliche but I got more insight here then ever talking to my professors. I hope you continue to post and share. Good luck with the new practice and the next phase of your life!

 

[OceanDMD]

First you have no idea what my situation is and what transpired between my ex-partner and I that led up to our split and my selling him my half of the practice. You are making an assumption based on what little I have written in this thread about my situation and I can assure you that what I have written here is not even remotely the entire story of what occurred. To discuss in detail what eventually led to legal action between my ex-partner and I due to his violation of our contract on an open forum would be unethical.

Secondly I did not "set up shop" right next door to my former office. I am in a different city, a different county and about 23 miles away from my former office. My restrictive covenant was for 3 years and 3 miles. Even as the crow flies my new office is not even remotely close to violating that agreement. The county that my old practice was in has over 56,000 people for 8 dentists. The county that I am in now has 63,000 for 15 dentists. Despite my relocating back in the same region my ex-partner still has a more favorable dentist to population ratio than the national average.

Third despite your assurance that your post was "nothing personal" towards me, you accuse me of being "underhanded and unethical" for returning to practice and letting my old patients know through an ad in the local paper that I was back in the area. In fact you make that point more than once in your post. Making that kind of disparaging accusation about my character anonymously on an open forum without knowing anything more about the situation than what I posted is a personal attack and slanderous. You could have PM'd me to let me know your "thoughts" on what I did or you could have just thought that I was a douche bag and not said anything. But instead you decided to post that in your opinion what I did was "underhanded and unethical" in this thread. That is very personal, especially since I haven't made any real attempt to hide my identity or where my practice is located.

I'm sorry to hear that the dentist from whom your friend bought his practice from has decided to be a dick and screw you over. I wish that I could say that this sort of thing is uncommon for the new into practice dentists but it is not. The one thing that I will say is that karma is a bitch and one way or the other he'll get his just desserts. People who tend to be unethical in one area of their lives are usually unethical in all areas of their lives and it eventually catches up with them. Many faults I have but screwing people over is not one of them. Neither is dealing with people dishonestly.

I have tried to be open and honest about my experiences during this transition in the hopes that I can help the readers of this thread avoid some of the stress and pitfalls that can occur when you buy a dental practice. I've tried to answer any questions as best as I could and hopefully share some of the things that I have learned in the 17 years since I graduated dental school. But apparently the only thing that you have managed to get from the 12 pages of this thread is that I have dealt "underhandedly" with my former partner.

So I'll tell you what Omaralt, I'll leave this thread in your hands. I'm sure that you have plenty of insight into what makes a successful dental practice so I won't monopolize this thread with my thoughts any longer. Good luck.

Why so defensive? All you had to do was give a little more background on the geographical info of your new practice. Need a little thicker skin in online discussions. So far all anyone has done is kiss your arse because of how awesome you are. The second someone says something to the contrary you claim slander(I guess its actually libel) and run off. sheeeshh.

 

[zriceman]

First you have no idea what my situation is and what transpired between my ex-partner and I that led up to our split and my selling him my half of the practice. You are making an assumption based on what little I have written in this thread about my situation and I can assure you that what I have written here is not even remotely the entire story of what occurred. To discuss in detail what eventually led to legal action between my ex-partner and I due to his violation of our contract on an open forum would be unethical.

Secondly I did not "set up shop" right next door to my former office. I am in a different city, a different county and about 23 miles away from my former office. My restrictive covenant was for 3 years and 3 miles. Even as the crow flies my new office is not even remotely close to violating that agreement. The county that my old practice was in has over 56,000 people for 8 dentists. The county that I am in now has 63,000 for 15 dentists. Despite my relocating back in the same region my ex-partner still has a more favorable dentist to population ratio than the national average.

Third despite your assurance that your post was "nothing personal" towards me, you accuse me of being "underhanded and unethical" for returning to practice and letting my old patients know through an ad in the local paper that I was back in the area. In fact you make that point more than once in your post. Making that kind of disparaging accusation about my character anonymously on an open forum without knowing anything more about the situation than what I posted is a personal attack and slanderous. You could have PM'd me to let me know your "thoughts" on what I did or you could have just thought that I was a douche bag and not said anything. But instead you decided to post that in your opinion what I did was "underhanded and unethical" in this thread. That is very personal, especially since I haven't made any real attempt to hide my identity or where my practice is located.

I'm sorry to hear that the dentist from whom your friend bought his practice from has decided to be a dick and screw you over. I wish that I could say that this sort of thing is uncommon for the new into practice dentists but it is not. The one thing that I will say is that karma is a bitch and one way or the other he'll get his just desserts. People who tend to be unethical in one area of their lives are usually unethical in all areas of their lives and it eventually catches up with them. Many faults I have but screwing people over is not one of them. Neither is dealing with people dishonestly.

I have tried to be open and honest about my experiences during this transition in the hopes that I can help the readers of this thread avoid some of the stress and pitfalls that can occur when you buy a dental practice. I've tried to answer any questions as best as I could and hopefully share some of the things that I have learned in the 17 years since I graduated dental school. But apparently the only thing that you have managed to get from the 12 pages of this thread is that I have dealt "underhandedly" with my former partner.

So I'll tell you what Omaralt, I'll leave this thread in your hands. I'm sure that you have plenty of insight into what makes a successful dental practice so I won't monopolize this thread with my thoughts any longer. Good luck.

I m just a dental student, but i do value what you have to share with us. No need to defend yourself. I dont think it's right for people to judge others on an online forum. I wish you best in getting your practice up and running and look forward to learning about practicing in the real world through your experiences.

 

[omaralt]

what i said was based on what information you provided in this discussion. if you are 23 miles away from your old practice than thats different. i was under the impression (as others here i'm sure) that you were opening up close by your old office and that you were trying to lure your patients back. as somebody else pointed out no need to get defensive and run off; it's just an online forum

First you have no idea what my situation is and what transpired between my ex-partner and I that led up to our split and my selling him my half of the practice. You are making an assumption based on what little I have written in this thread about my situation and I can assure you that what I have written here is not even remotely the entire story of what occurred. To discuss in detail what eventually led to legal action between my ex-partner and I due to his violation of our contract on an open forum would be unethical.

Secondly I did not "set up shop" right next door to my former office. I am in a different city, a different county and about 23 miles away from my former office. My restrictive covenant was for 3 years and 3 miles. Even as the crow flies my new office is not even remotely close to violating that agreement. The county that my old practice was in has over 56,000 people for 8 dentists. The county that I am in now has 63,000 for 15 dentists. Despite my relocating back in the same region my ex-partner still has a more favorable dentist to population ratio than the national average.

Third despite your assurance that your post was "nothing personal" towards me, you accuse me of being "underhanded and unethical" for returning to practice and letting my old patients know through an ad in the local paper that I was back in the area. In fact you make that point more than once in your post. Making that kind of disparaging accusation about my character anonymously on an open forum without knowing anything more about the situation than what I posted is a personal attack and slanderous. You could have PM'd me to let me know your "thoughts" on what I did or you could have just thought that I was a douche bag and not said anything. But instead you decided to post that in your opinion what I did was "underhanded and unethical" in this thread. That is very personal, especially since I haven't made any real attempt to hide my identity or where my practice is located.

I'm sorry to hear that the dentist from whom your friend bought his practice from has decided to be a dick and screw you over. I wish that I could say that this sort of thing is uncommon for the new into practice dentists but it is not. The one thing that I will say is that karma is a bitch and one way or the other he'll get his just desserts. People who tend to be unethical in one area of their lives are usually unethical in all areas of their lives and it eventually catches up with them. Many faults I have but screwing people over is not one of them. Neither is dealing with people dishonestly.

I have tried to be open and honest about my experiences during this transition in the hopes that I can help the readers of this thread avoid some of the stress and pitfalls that can occur when you buy a dental practice. I've tried to answer any questions as best as I could and hopefully share some of the things that I have learned in the 17 years since I graduated dental school. But apparently the only thing that you have managed to get from the 12 pages of this thread is that I have dealt "underhandedly" with my former partner.

So I'll tell you what Omaralt, I'll leave this thread in your hands. I'm sure that you have plenty of insight into what makes a successful dental practice so I won't monopolize this thread with my thoughts any longer. Good luck.

 

[OceanDMD]

what i said was based on what information you provided in this discussion. if you are 23 miles away from your old practice than thats different. i was under the impression (as others here i'm sure) that you were opening up close by your old office and that you were trying to lure your patients back. as somebody else pointed out no need to get defensive and run off; it's just an online forum

If im not mistaken, hes luring back an office manager and a hygienist from his "old 24 miles away practice". Carpe Diem. If I was hammer, I'd have billboard advertising surrounding my old practice area stating that I'm "back in town". The key is something short and catchy (obviously since when driving its not like you are going to remember a phone number). Suggestions? How about HAMMER BACK IN TOWN
hammerdmd.com (driving through they will remember the website rather than a phone number)

or maybe: REMEMBER THE HAMMER
hammerthestuddds.com

Its a new age, and if you have a nitch go for the billboard stuff.



Bottom line omaralt, you have a point. Regardless of the situaiton between hammer and his x-partner, he is certainly playing the game to get his old patients back, and possibly leeching his old employees. I certainly wouldnt judge the ethics behind it, we dont know the history and Hammer's x-partner could be a complete douche. But, lets not play games. From what I can deduce from this thread, Hammer will have his x-partner's office manager, possibly a hygienist, Im sure an assistant or two(they would be the easiest to convert), and probably 25-45% of his active patients. Awesome. Whatever your x-partner did to piss you off Hammer, it sounds like your going to redeem yourself. Carpe Diem dog.

 

[DentinBond]

If I was hammer, I'd have billboard advertising surrounding my old practice area stating that I'm "back in town". The key is something short and catchy (obviously since when driving its not like you are going to remember a phone number).

In an era of busy, selfish consumers who have a lot of places to direct their Attention, billboards no longer work- if they ever really did- and are not anywhere near cost effective. Consider:

From:
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/12/squid_soup_part.html

"Watch out for the 5% rule
Most new marketing ideas that are any good feel like they might be able to convert 5% of those in the market for what's being sold.
And of course, only 5% of the population is in the market for what's being sold.
And only 5% of those in the market are choosing to pay attention.
So it's really 5% of 5% of 5%. Take 10,000 people. That's 500, which gets you 25 which gets you one.
1 new customer.
5% isn't enough. Not if you're in a hurry!"

This is a best-case scenario and as you can see the cost/benefit ratio is not there. Even with prior patients. An element of Permission- any degree of Permission- is better than trying to interrupt the crowd of prior patients, or even just the population in general. They're too busy and distracted- they will ignore billboards. And a lot of other Interruption Advertising.

Also:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/09/do_billboards_w.html

 

[OceanDMD]

In an era of busy, selfish consumers who have a lot of places to direct their Attention, billboards no longer work- if they ever really did- and are not anywhere near cost effective. Consider:

From:
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/12/squid_soup_part.html

"Watch out for the 5% rule
Most new marketing ideas that are any good feel like they might be able to convert 5% of those in the market for what’s being sold.
And of course, only 5% of the population is in the market for what’s being sold.
And only 5% of those in the market are choosing to pay attention.
So it’s really 5% of 5% of 5%. Take 10,000 people. That’s 500, which gets you 25 which gets you one.
1 new customer.
5% isn’t enough. Not if you’re in a hurry!"

This is a best-case scenario and as you can see the cost/benefit ratio is not there. Even with prior patients. An element of Permission- any degree of Permission- is better than trying to interrupt the crowd of prior patients, or even just the population in general. They're too busy and distracted- they will ignore billboards. And a lot of other Interruption Advertising.

Also:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/09/do_billboards_w.html

For a general run of the mill practice I would tend to agree with you. For a nitch practice, I think a billboard is a vaible form of advertising. This is from actual success. Very simply, we have a IV sedation General Dentist who has advertised with a billboard that simply said in great big red letters

DENTAL FEAR

and a phone number. This billboard is bringing in 3 to 4 patients a month, all of which are significant sized treatment plans (easily making the investment worthwhile). At $900 a month, generating an estimated 5k-15k of dentistry it works. You just have to be creative.

 

[toothfairy3]

wow hammer you are so helpful! I am not even in dental school yet.. (just accepted Dec 1 to Maryland ) and even though im in complete bliss of being accepted this thread has made me realize I still will have to work and focus hard on life after dental school. I don't know much about associatships or having my own practice but you really helped me understand so much!! thanks !!

 

[DentinBond]

For a general run of the mill practice I would tend to agree with you. For a nitch practice, I think a billboard is a vaible form of advertising. This is from actual success. Very simply, we have a IV sedation General Dentist who has advertised with a billboard that simply said in great big red letters

DENTAL FEAR

and a phone number. This billboard is bringing in 3 to 4 patients a month, all of which are significant sized treatment plans (easily making the investment worthwhile). At $900 a month, generating an estimated 5k-15k of dentistry it works. You just have to be creative.

Ah, Ocean, you have hit on a vital point- with this niche, you do have an element of Permission. To review- there is Interruption Advertising in which an attempt is made to interrupt people as they are doing something which they prefer, in the billboard example like driving, texting and applying makeup all at the same time (sorry couldn't resist a lil swipe at our society's over-distractedness), with a dentistry message about which they have absolutely no interest. Or, to be accurate, about which 99.9% of them have absolutely no interest.

Then there is Permission Marketing, which contains three elements according to Godin's definition: it is anticipated, personal, and relevant.

A billboard is not anticipated- unless and until the commuter drives the same way multiple times and notices it. Then they may start to think about how their lower left molar aches sometimes after they drink their coffee while texting and driving, and they may come to sort of anticipate the billboard.

Personal? Never with a billboard, you don't get that.

But relevant- yes the fear angle is relevant to people with various dental phobias, so even with a billboard, you do have a slight element of relevance to this one specific population.

There's a whole set of disadvantages to marketing based on fear, but it is at least a valid tactic.

The point is once we have an element of Permission, success in marketing goes up. That's part of why online ads are now more successful than print, radio and TV- people do go online with the specific goal of finding a dentist. They actually do this in vast numbers. They are, in that moment, anticipating, and our website or blog is relevant to their immediate needs. If they can feel a sense of connection with us due to the nature of our websites, the effect is even greater. (This is why I strenuously avoid stock photos of non-patient patients, it's why I celebrate our staff on our site, and it's especially why we celebrate our patients on our site.)

Don't let old-style marketers brainwash us into thinking that interruption still works well. It does work a little, but it is so weakened that an entire industry is in turmoil. Actually several- look at the music industry too. Permission always outpaces interruption these days. (Though it takes time and patience to scale, which is why so few embrace it. It's not a quick fix.) Connection trumps spam.

 

[SoulPower]

bump

 

[The Hammer]

Heya hammer, I just had a question regarding your old partner. He was a person whom you knew before he was in dental school right, probably a former patient even?

But regardless I was wondering if you would have taken the deal you offered him if you were him right out of dental school. I'm kind of in the same situation right now as I just got accepted to school next year and my family doctor, the one who got me into dentistry, offered me an associateship once I get out of school and I'm looking for some insight.

Thanks

Yeah I would have. My offer was to work as an associate for 3-4 years (or less) and buy half the practice. I had associates working for me every year since I bought the practice in 1995 so I definitely had enough patients for 2 people. In fact when we were in negotiations for his buy in we were projecting hiring another associate in the next two years.

The things that I would advise you to keep in mind are:

1. Does he have enough patients to keep two docs busy? If he has 8 full time hygiene days a week then he does. If he doesn't then I would be careful

2.Is it possible that he wants to recruit you just to have you sign a restrictive covenant and keep you from being his competition?

3. Is he going to be cool with turning his patients over to you? Or is he going to decide that he needs to do all the crown and bridge and just give you the kids and endo?

4. How are the patients going to be divided?

Even if this guy is on the up and up I would have an ironclad contract written by a practice broker and an independant evaluation of the practice by someone like AFTCO, MATSCO, Mercer etc. DO NOT just go on an evaluation by his dental supplier.

Not to sound pessimistic but you have about a 10-20% chance of this guy being a good guy and helping you get a good start in private practice. Unfortunately you have a greater chance of this guy trying to dick you at some point in your association with him so keep your eyes open and proceed with caution.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to associate with him for a couple of years. After a year or two of working inside the practice you should know if you are getting a straight deal or a screw job.

Good luck and I hope it works out well for you

 

[zriceman]

glad to see you back! any updates with your new practice?

 

[Cold Front]

OK I am finally taking some time off for Thanksgiving so I think I will post 'How to hire good employees" and also address the OM question. I really apologize about neglecting this thread but that's what happens when you open a new practice.

Did you ever get to this part, yet?

 

[The Hammer]

glad to see you back! any updates with your new practice?

Had to close two days for snow. Nothing like having the weather screw with your bottom line