Letters of Recommendation

[ilikecake]

Hi all, I am a first time applicant this coming cycle. I'm very excited begin working on my app next week I have a question about LoRs for anyone who may be able to help:
I am a non-traditional student, and graduated undergrad in 2012. That being said, I don't keep in touch with any professors that I had, nor did I have any who I was particularly close to during this time. I did, however take two classes at a different college more recently. I did well in both, and am debating on of those teachers. The first class was an upper level science class, and although I didn't really talk to the professor as it wasn't lab based or anything, but I know she knows who I am. This professor is very successful and has many published articles, research, PhD, etc. The other class was an experience class where we spent two days taking care of/learning on the "job" of laboratory animals. This teacher I was very close with, and we got to know each other very well. However, she isn't a "professor" and only ran this one course. I'm pretty sure she only has a BS in Biology, and nothing beyond that.
I know that most school want one letter of recommendation from a professor. What are your guys' thoughts about this? I'm not sure which to ask for a letter.
My other issue is I'm not sure which veterinarians to ask for a letter. I work with several vets, all of whom would gladly write me a letter. One is a very, very smart doctor who came up with a method of treating a previously untreatable condition. He knows me and likes me, but doesn't spend too much time at the office, so I haven't gotten to know him on a personal level. Another knows me very well, but is a very recent graduate (2012). Yet another told me he would love to write me a letter, then told me that I should write it myself and give it to him to submit. He said that this is a common practice, but it sounds to me a bit like cheating. Have any of you ever had this kind of experience? I'm not sure if this is something most people do.
Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for your help!

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[hazelmoo]

I would ask the people who know you on a personal level. I don't think the success of the person is necessarily important, but you want someone who is able to write a positive level about you as a person.

As far as writing your own letter goes, I wouldn't recommend it. I've never heard of that, but that's not the point of LoRs. The point is to have a person who you've worked closely with tell admissions what you're like.

 

[Osudairy]

This topic has been discussed on other threads. You can use the search function in the future and bring up what you need before starting a new thread.

You want people who know you personally and can attest to your abilities, skills, morals, personality, etc. It does not necessarily matter if they are an extremely successful researcher or a professor. They need to be able to specifically tailor a letter to you and why you are a good candidate for veterinary school. You do not want someone who barley knows you to write a mediocre or generic LOR. You want it to come from someone who is going to speak up for you and has actually gotten to know you as a person/student. As for writing a letter about yourself....bad idea IMO. I have never heard of anyone doing that and it is not very ethical seeing that most students waive their right to view them on VMCAS.

 

[genny]

Consider yourself lucky that so many people want to help you! Pick the ones who will write you the strongest letter. I don't see a problem with the non-PhD "professor" writing you a letter, as her contribution to your application should be about what a dedicated student you are, and your wonderful personality. Let the veterinarians take care of why you're suited for the profession.

I have heard of students writing their own letters, but usually for applications that actually want just a letter. I used to work for a department chairman who had students write the first draft of their letter, then as his assistant I would clean it up, and then he would read over it to make sure it was accurate. The problem with doing that for vet school applications is that some schools have their own separate electronic form that needs to be filled out, so the letter writer actually has to come up with stuff about you own their own. So pick the people who you think will write the best things about you.

 

[ilikecake]

Consider yourself lucky that so many people want to help you! Pick the ones who will write you the strongest letter. I don't see a problem with the non-PhD "professor" writing you a letter, as her contribution to your application should be about what a dedicated student you are, and your wonderful personality. Let the veterinarians take care of why you're suited for the profession.

I have heard of students writing their own letters, but usually for applications that actually want just a letter. I used to work for a department chairman who had students write the first draft of their letter, then as his assistant I would clean it up, and then he would read over it to make sure it was accurate. The problem with doing that for vet school applications is that some schools have their own separate electronic form that needs to be filled out, so the letter writer actually has to come up with stuff about you own their own. So pick the people who you think will write the best things about you.

Thanks! I don't think I'll take him up on his offer, I just wanted to get opinions of some people one here. As for the teacher, do you think that she would count as the "academic" letter of recommendation?

 

[Jess Monster]

Ask more then 3 people. Some people might say no or might not answer you at all.
Make sure you have 3 compliant people and an alternate to add into VMCAS.
Some people procrastinate. Some people flake out. It's better to have more than you need so you don't run into problems close to the deadline.

It's fully acceptable to write a rough draft LOR for a professor/boss/etc. if requested to do so. I've been asked to do this on multiple occasions not only for vet school but for grad school and internships as well. It's up to that person to edit and submit his/her final recommendation.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Yeah....it's not totally uncommon for someone to tell you to write your own letter for them to submit or at least give them an outline of what you want said. Personally, I don't think that's the most honest way of going about it. LORs are supposed to be honest evaluations/recommendations of you by another. Would the schools ever know? Probably not and I'm sure it's been done hundreds of times..doesn't mean it's the 'right' thing to do. It's not much different than a professor using his stock LOR and just changing the name on it. With either situation, you're kind of missing out on the point of a LOR. If you feel like you're cheating, don't do it. You'll save yourself a lot of stress that way.

 

[Jess Monster]

Probably not and I'm sure it's been done hundreds of times..doesn't mean it's the 'right' thing to do.

I think you mean "ideal" not "right."

It may not be ideal, but that doesn't make it wrong, dishonest, unethical, etc. There is no need for unnecessary moralizing.

 

[Osudairy]

I think you mean "ideal" not "right."

It may not be ideal, but that doesn't make it wrong, dishonest, unethical, etc. There is no need for unnecessary moralizing.

Isn't writing your own LOR kind of on the unethical side of things to begin with? I'm sure it has been done many times, but it still seems shady to me.

 

[Cephal0pod]

A very strong letter from someone with fewer accolades is much more valuable to your application than a weaker, mediocre letter from someone with a lot of accolades. You want your eLOR writers to be willing and able to enthusiastically write about you, why would make a fabulous veterinarian, etc. Choose accordingly.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I think you mean "ideal" not "right."

It may not be ideal, but that doesn't make it wrong, dishonest, unethical, etc. There is no need for unnecessary moralizing.

No, sorry, I 100% disagree. These letters are read under the presumption that they were written by the evaluator. Like I said, the school may never find out. Again, doesn't mean it's something that should ever occur.

There's even discussion throughout this forum and with VMCAS on other platforms that brings up the option for an applicant to view the letters post-submission and how opting out of that gives off a better impression to the school. Imagine how a school could react if they find out you had to write your own letter. It's not honest. How can you writing something, then someone else submitting under their name ever be honest unless there's a contract involved (aka ghost writing)?

 

[Minnerbelle]

It's not "wrong" if the evaluator reads the letter and agrees with it. They can change as they see fit.


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[LetItSnow]

No, sorry, I 100% disagree. These letters are read under the presumption that they were written by the evaluator.

No they aren't. They are read with the presumption that they convey the feelings of the person whose name is on it.

Nothing unethical about writing a letter for the recommender. It is their name on it, them submitting it, it is up to them to validate that they agree with it.

What would be unethical is writing one and submitting it without them knowing.

 

[Jess Monster]

Isn't writing your own LOR kind of on the unethical side of things to begin with? I'm sure it has been done many times, but it still seems shady to me.

No. It's not unethical.

Many people, especially in academia, rely on students to assist in the process by providing them with an organized rough draft that meets the criteria of whatever body is requesting the recommendation. Mostly, it's convenient for the person who will submit it. He or she ultimately controls what is said as it is that person's professional reputation that the letter is staked in. It is not ideal. It is also not necessarily an opportunity that a person should pass up. While it burdens the student with the task of crafting an appropriate LOR, it also gives that student a platform to present information to the evaluator, perhaps reminding him or her of events, conversations, etc. that have been forgotten.

 

[KCgophervet]

I had a PI write a letter for me. She was born in Italy and she wrote me a glowing letter and asked me to fix the grammar and spelling for her since English isn't her first language. I'm so glad she did because there were some glaring errors in it that i was able to fix. Then sent it back to her and she took it from there. I had zero qualms about doing it.

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[hazelmoo]

I had a PI write a letter for me. She was born in Italy and she wrote me a glowing letter and asked me to fix the grammar and spelling for her since English isn't her first language. I'm so glad she did because there were some glaring errors in it that i was able to fix. Then sent it back to her and she took it from there. I had zero qualms about doing it.

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I think that's way different than writing your own letter! I still don't think it's ethical to write your own letter of recommendation. There's a reason why they specify everything for the evaluators only and you're supposed to waive your right to access the letter after it has been turned in. I feel that it's dishonest, but that's just me.

 

[genny]

Thanks! I don't think I'll take him up on his offer, I just wanted to get opinions of some people one here. As for the teacher, do you think that she would count as the "academic" letter of recommendation?

Yes, she counts. She taught you, she can write about having you as a student. She sounds like she would be a fantastic choice if you got along really well together. The LORs are supposed to give your application some character, since the schools already know you perform well based on your GPA and GRE. It's to your advantage to get a letter writer who can talk about you as a team player, or a really honest person, or whatever character trait you have that impressed her. That's what makes your application stand out.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think that's way different than writing your own letter! I still don't think it's ethical to write your own letter of recommendation. There's a reason why they specify everything for the evaluators only and you're supposed to waive your right to access the letter after it has been turned in. I feel that it's dishonest, but that's just me.

You can write your own letter and still waive to see the finished product. You don't necessarily know what they changed after you wrote it.

And just because you waived your right to see it doesn't mean the LoR writer can't give you a copy if they want to. It means that the LoR writer will know that you won't get to see it if they don't want you to.


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[rockatiel]

In a way I think the writing your own letter thing would help the evaluator see if you can speak as highly of yourself as an LOR writer might do of you. confidence in abilities (though not too much) is important, no? If not, at least being able to sell yourself is. Also saves busy people time.

 

[Minnerbelle]

No they aren't. They are read with the presumption that they convey the feelings of the person whose name is on it.

Nothing unethical about writing a letter for the recommender. It is their name on it, them submitting it, it is up to them to validate that they agree with it.

Yup

And sometimes, it does matter who writes the letter. Glowing LOR from Joe Schmoe, DVM (like me) is probably less interesting than a glowing LOR from *the* Dr. Ettinger. Obviously, content matters, but it would be naive to say name doesn't matter.

"This student is the most promising pre-vet I've ever encountered" means a heck of a lot more from someone like that than me.

Obviously, a lukewarm letter from anyone is bad. But if the content was good, there is no reason why you shouldn't go with the big gun people

I asked my boss (faculty PhD researcher) to write me a LOR for vet school because he knew me very very well. He wrote it, and passed it on to my PI to sign, who I only interacted with weekly during lab meeting but heard from my boss about how awesome I was on a regular basis. Why? Because my PI was a world renown physician scientist department chair at Harvard medical school. I didn't think that was unethical at all. PI was fully on board with endorsing me, and I'm sure edited it if only for grammar (boss was foreign). Doesn't change that just because she didn't *write* it.


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[baa4711]

Hi guys sorry for bringing this thread back up but I had a few questions about LORs. When asking for a letter of recommendation, did your evaluators ask to see your transcripts or ask about your GPA? I'm pretty ashamed at my lower than average GPA and I feel like that would make my evaluators question my ability to academically do well in vet school. I had a pretty rocky start to undergrad but I did receive higher grades on upper level science classes my last year and a half of undergrad (A's in orgo chem, biochem, pathology, immunology, etc). But I also received 2 C's in two science classes during that time period. I am planning on asking the facility veterinarians at my lab at NIH where I currently work, a veterinarian from a lab I worked at during undergrad, a PI from a research lab, and a veterinarian from a small animal clinic who also works in research at the FDA. From these evaluators I would like them to attest to my technical abilities, my attributes, personality, etc. And then I want to ask 1-2 professors to write me a recommendation regarding my academic ability. Would these evaluators be sufficient? I am planning on applying for next year's cycle btw

Also, can more than 1 person from the same company submit a LOR?

 

[katashark]

Hi guys sorry for bringing this thread back up but I had a few questions about LORs. When asking for a letter of recommendation, did your evaluators ask to see your transcripts or ask about your GPA? I'm pretty ashamed at my lower than average GPA and I feel like that would make my evaluators question my ability to academically do well in vet school. I had a pretty rocky start to undergrad but I did receive higher grades on upper level science classes my last year and a half of undergrad (A's in orgo chem, biochem, pathology, immunology, etc). But I also received 2 C's in two science classes during that time period. I am planning on asking the facility veterinarians at my lab at NIH where I currently work, a veterinarian from a lab I worked at during undergrad, a PI from a research lab, and a veterinarian from a small animal clinic who also works in research at the FDA. From these evaluators I would like them to attest to my technical abilities, my attributes, personality, etc. And then I want to ask 1-2 professors to write me a recommendation regarding my academic ability. Would these evaluators be sufficient? I am planning on applying for next year's cycle btw

Also, can more than 1 person from the same company submit a LOR?

It sounds like you have more than enough people to write you letters that they shouldn't be from the same company. But it's 2 people writing 2 different letters from the same company, it shouldn't be a problem at all. My old academic advisor asked for a transcript, none of the others did. None of them asked my GPA. I had a 3.3 or 3.4 and multiple Cs. It's ok, don't be ashamed. You did great in the difficult classes! People can address different things in your letters - academic performance, ability to work in a team, work ethic, personality, etc.

 

[Doctor-S]

Hi guys sorry for bringing this thread back up but I had a few questions about LORs. When asking for a letter of recommendation, did your evaluators ask to see your transcripts or ask about your GPA? I'm pretty ashamed at my lower than average GPA and I feel like that would make my evaluators question my ability to academically do well in vet school. I had a pretty rocky start to undergrad but I did receive higher grades on upper level science classes my last year and a half of undergrad (A's in orgo chem, biochem, pathology, immunology, etc). But I also received 2 C's in two science classes during that time period. I am planning on asking the facility veterinarians at my lab at NIH where I currently work, a veterinarian from a lab I worked at during undergrad, a PI from a research lab, and a veterinarian from a small animal clinic who also works in research at the FDA. From these evaluators I would like them to attest to my technical abilities, my attributes, personality, etc. And then I want to ask 1-2 professors to write me a recommendation regarding my academic ability. Would these evaluators be sufficient? I am planning on applying for next year's cycle btw

Also, can more than 1 person from the same company submit a LOR?

Agree with comments posted by @katashark.

If your letter writers do not ask for your GPA or academic transcript, don't worry about it. Instead, the letter writers will focus on YOUR merits as an aspiring DVM. You did well in organic chemistry, biochemistry, etc. Good. Do well on the GRE. 2 C's in non-pre-req classes are not deal breakers.

Thank you.

 

[periwinkle1612]

Hey all,

I need some advice on LOR's if you are able to help me out!
I'm applying the 2017 cycle. I have two people who I know I want to ask for LOR's, they are:
1. Current advisor in my graduate program and also my PI for my graduate thesis, they are a DVM
2. My PI/professor from undergrad from research I did in my major, also took a course with them (from a social science background)

I'm stumped who to ask for the last LOR. I don't have another DVM in a clinic that I have a close relationship with (I was pretty shy and didnt get the whole networking thing in undergrad) though I do have veterinary experience.
From these options, what do you think is best?:
A. Current professor I have for a class in my grad program. They are a DVM/PhD. I've met with them a couple times for advice about research and its a small class. I want to ask them to be on my thesis committee eventually (after vet school apps unfortunately). They know me, but not too, too well if that makes sense
B. Current Manager from my Administrative Assistant job on campus. They are not veterinary related at all, but I have a good personal relationship with them. Graduated from same school with B.S. I believe.
C. Director of my graduate program (also DVM/PhD). He knows who I am and I took a class with him. Met with him a few times regarding research, opportunities, and internships. Problem is that he deals with a lot of students in our program, so not sure what his response will be
D. I could ask a Vet I worked with in a small animal clinic about 3 years ago..but i havent talked to them since and it would be a bit awkward and out of the blue

I really would appreciate any input and would like to hear what you would do in this situation! Thanks!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Hey all,

I need some advice on LOR's if you are able to help me out!
I'm applying the 2017 cycle. I have two people who I know I want to ask for LOR's, they are:
1. Current advisor in my graduate program and also my PI for my graduate thesis, they are a DVM
2. My PI/professor from undergrad from research I did in my major, also took a course with them (from a social science background)

I'm stumped who to ask for the last LOR. I don't have another DVM in a clinic that I have a close relationship with (I was pretty shy and didnt get the whole networking thing in undergrad) though I do have veterinary experience.
From these options, what do you think is best?:
A. Current professor I have for a class in my grad program. They are a DVM/PhD. I've met with them a couple times for advice about research and its a small class. I want to ask them to be on my thesis committee eventually (after vet school apps unfortunately). They know me, but not too, too well if that makes sense
B. Current Manager from my Administrative Assistant job on campus. They are not veterinary related at all, but I have a good personal relationship with them. Graduated from same school with B.S. I believe.
C. Director of my graduate program (also DVM/PhD). He knows who I am and I took a class with him. Met with him a few times regarding research, opportunities, and internships. Problem is that he deals with a lot of students in our program, so not sure what his response will be
D. I could ask a Vet I worked with in a small animal clinic about 3 years ago..but i havent talked to them since and it would be a bit awkward and out of the blue

I really would appreciate any input and would like to hear what you would do in this situation! Thanks!

I personally would go with whoever knows me best and could attest to my work ethic, personality, etc. It sounds like that may be your manager. If VMCAS still accepts up to 6 letters, you could ask more than three if you really are unable to choose. Just know that some schools will read only three, and they usually ask you which three you want read.

 

[ahallowell]

Hey all,

I need some advice on LOR's if you are able to help me out!
I'm applying the 2017 cycle. I have two people who I know I want to ask for LOR's, they are:
1. Current advisor in my graduate program and also my PI for my graduate thesis, they are a DVM
2. My PI/professor from undergrad from research I did in my major, also took a course with them (from a social science background)

I'm stumped who to ask for the last LOR. I don't have another DVM in a clinic that I have a close relationship with (I was pretty shy and didnt get the whole networking thing in undergrad) though I do have veterinary experience.
From these options, what do you think is best?:
A. Current professor I have for a class in my grad program. They are a DVM/PhD. I've met with them a couple times for advice about research and its a small class. I want to ask them to be on my thesis committee eventually (after vet school apps unfortunately). They know me, but not too, too well if that makes sense
B. Current Manager from my Administrative Assistant job on campus. They are not veterinary related at all, but I have a good personal relationship with them. Graduated from same school with B.S. I believe.
C. Director of my graduate program (also DVM/PhD). He knows who I am and I took a class with him. Met with him a few times regarding research, opportunities, and internships. Problem is that he deals with a lot of students in our program, so not sure what his response will be
D. I could ask a Vet I worked with in a small animal clinic about 3 years ago..but i havent talked to them since and it would be a bit awkward and out of the blue

I really would appreciate any input and would like to hear what you would do in this situation! Thanks!

I had this exact same issue when I first applied back in 2012. I shadowed in the emergency room at a veterinary university and couldn't necessarily make any connections with the staff veterinarians. I ended up asking the lead technician that ran the shadowing program. In addition to the tech, I had letters from my research advisor (PhD), undergraduate professor (DVM, PhD) and my academic advisor (DVM, PhD). After a file review with Mississippi and Virginia they said they would have liked to see a practicing veterinarian write me a letter. I'm not sure if any one can comment on this. Although I felt like I chose those that could write a strong letter based on our relationship, I do feel like not having a "practicing" veterinarian did hurt my application. I feel your pain and it's quite the pickle. Just thought I'd share!


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