Level Of "evidence" for Pain vs Other Medical Specialities

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You think IPM is full of fraudsters, look up the highest paid MDs on propublica. Optho injections for glaucoma are over the top and likely don't meet Statistical criteria. these guys are getting 2-5mm from Medicare alone. Maybe some of that is cost of medications, but their income are very high... Point is not to fight each other, rather push for healthcare competition and free markets. Let supply and demand determine cost and innovation.

Correct.

In fact, the biggest "abusers" of the system in terms of unnecessary cost for procedural medicine due to level 1 evidence against them include:

1) Stents for CAD
2) CABGs for non decreased EF
3) All fusion surgeries for anything but scoliosis

IPM would be far lower down on the list for cost to the system for over-utilization issues.

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EBM is the best tool healthcare insurance/administrators have to deny care, simple and easy.

If you are paying cash for procedures, do you really ask your doctor to produce double-blinded, randomized control study to support his treatment plan? It's reasonable to ask for doctor's opinions, clinical experience about the efficacy of a procedure, but if you try to ask me to produce RCT, level 1 evidence to support a procedure, I'd say find someone else.

DrCommonSense made a lot of good points that made sense. I'll just add another common sense statement that I heard many years ago,

There has never been any double-blinded, randomized control trial study to show parachute saves life, so why do you wear it? You can replace "parachute" with any other safety items that come to your mind, lifesaver jacket, airbag, etc.

So just because you don't have RCT study to back it up, does it mean you don't do it? Of course not. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE, instead.

There have been non blinded non randomized cases detailing the results of not wearing a parachute.

Now we are talking snake oil. By your reasoning, patient safety takes a back seat to what a doc thinks might possibly work today...

Are we not better than that? At least have case reports to back up a decision to perform a specific procedure and be ready to defend the consequences, good or bad.


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1) Stents for CAD
2) CABGs for non decreased EF
3) All fusion surgeries for anything but scoliosis

I think the difference is that all those procedures are sometimes life- or limb-saving, so it's hard to take a strong stand against authorizing them, while they can refuse to cover ESIs all day long and nobody will die.
 
I think the difference is that all those procedures are sometimes life- or limb-saving, so it's hard to take a strong stand against authorizing them, while they can refuse to cover ESIs all day long and nobody will die.

Fusion surgeries are life saving? they can refuse them all day long and nobody will die. How many stenosis patients have been saved from life or limb from fusion surgeries compared to ones who are in wheelchairs after them?

Just because surgeons make a false argument that someone will be "paralyzed" without a fusion offers no evidence. All the evidence from independent work comp parties show the opposite.

Stents for stable CAD are life saving? We can just put those people on medications and just eliminate stents all day long and nobody will die.

Fear mongering about "death" doesn't cut it when the studies confirm no benefit for mortality.

Rotator Cuff surgery, Meniscus Surgeries, etc have nothing to do with "life and death" either.
 
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There have been non blinded non randomized cases detailing the results of not wearing a parachute.

Now we are talking snake oil. By your reasoning, patient safety takes a back seat to what a doc thinks might possibly work today...

Are we not better than that? At least have case reports to back up a decision to perform a specific procedure and be ready to defend the consequences, good or bad.

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So you think wearing parachute when jumping out of airplane is "snake oil"? I don't know how you are interpreting my post, but doing things that make COMMON SENSE is what matters, especially if you don't follow the common sense, the consequence is detrimental, or there are no acceptable alternatives besides the common sense approach, despite the lack of RCT studies.

Sure, case reports are good, but that's not the standard 101N is holding IPM against.

The debate here is, the feasibility of double-blinded, randomized control trial study.
 
The rotator cuff study doesn't have any comparison group with PT over the year that was studied (from what is posted on pubmed, therefore it isn't level 1 evidence) or randomized. All the study says is that "younger patients with traumatic injuries" that are basically healthy athletes can do better without comparing to any control. Can you show me where they did a RCT compared to PT? How do we know these patients wouldn't have 80% improvement with just PT alone and the surgery did nothing to improve that? Younger, health athletes often improve just through their own trainers without needing surgery.

This is NOT level 1 evidence. All the pubmed reviews I see of anything positive for younger athletes are level 4 or so (case studies, non randomized/non comparison studies, etc)

Can you cite a study that makes this comparison in younger patient that shows level 1 evidence?

The meniscus REVIEW article you posted only discusses previous studies. Again, the one in the younger cohort (only one that shows any benefit, which is the vast minority of surgical cases) DOESN'T compare it to cheaper PT alternatives (that I can see).

None of this is "level 1" evidence since they aren't RCT with a placebo/alternative treatment comparison if not compared to PT. The studies I posted for older patients were LEVEL 1 with direct comparisons to PT.

What percentage of rotator cuff sugeries are done on older patients vs younger ones? What abut meniscus? From my experience, the vast majority of surgeries are done in the OLDER atraumatic cohort that ARENT athletes, that has been proven with level 1 evidence to NOT work better than PT.

In fact, the PRP comparison studies are showing better efficacy for these problems than traditional surgery.
I added the disclaimer about not having comparisons to conservative care for all of that - although interestingly many of the trials did mention patients who tried conservative measure and then ended up needing surgery months later anyway.

You're correct in that none of it is level 1 evidence, but with surgery that's very hard to do - how do you ethically do a sham rotator cuff repair?
 
I added the disclaimer about not having comparisons to conservative care for all of that - although interestingly many of the trials did mention patients who tried conservative measure and then ended up needing surgery months later anyway.

You're correct in that none of it is level 1 evidence, but with surgery that's very hard to do - how do you ethically do a sham rotator cuff repair?


We don't need a "sham" study, we can just do a systemic comparison for young health athletes having that surgery vs PT alone. If we wanted to get exotic, since PRP is starting to do well, we could compare it to PRP/PT and see the results. I suspect no difference would be found or would favor PRP/PT.

I frequently see Orthopedic Surgery studies that are performed this way. They take extremely healthy, relatively functional people (who are less than 3-5% of their total surgical volume) that show improvement with a procedure (TKR, THR, Rotator Cuff, etc) and then use that to justify the procedure on far older patients with multiple medical comorbidities (the vast majority of the surgeries) that literally have ZERO evidence for benefit except for a few case studies.
 
We don't need a "sham" study, we can just do a systemic comparison for young health athletes having that surgery vs PT alone. If we wanted to get exotic, since PRP is starting to do well, we could compare it to PRP/PT and see the results. I suspect no difference would be found or would favor PRP/PT.

I frequently see Orthopedic Surgery studies that are performed this way. They take extremely healthy, relatively functional people (who are less than 3-5% of their total surgical volume) that show improvement with a procedure (TKR, THR, Rotator Cuff, etc) and then use that to justify the procedure on far older patients with multiple medical comorbidities (the vast majority of the surgeries) that literally have ZERO evidence for benefit except for a few case studies.
I think we're mostly in agreement - my original point was that surgery was helpful in traumatic rotator cuff/meniscal tears (exactly the people you're referencing) while the studies showing equivalence with PT were older degenerative tears.
 
So just because you don't have RCT study to back it up, does it mean you don't do it? Of course not. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE, instead.

The problem is that using one's common sense does not allow for the existence of the administrators and bureaucrats that make decisions on health care. They are DEATHLY AFRAID of the use of common sense, as common sense is antithetical to their existence and role in life. They need a well propagandized jedi mind trick to deny health care to people, and RCTs are the magic they need for this purpose.

It is the same for the socialists and democrats in this country. Using common sense, one can clearly determine all kinds of things. For example, I can determine who is a man, and who is a woman by using my common sense. In fact, humanity has been able to do that for the entire existence of humanity, until the past few years. We have been now told that our common sense is wrong, what we see with our eyes is wrong, and that whatever fantasy the government dreams up is our real reality.
 
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one salient point, drcommonsense. i realized why your argument sounds so familiar when i read it.

this afternoon, while listening to my 6 year old try to justify why she should be able to do something because her 11 year old sister can, it dawned on me.

just because another society or specialty chooses to put a blind eye to evidence that their procedures do not work is distinct and different than that we do the same about our profession. one cannot use a strawman argument that other specialties are not being introspective, so Pain does not need to be, as a basis of argument.
 
Ac
one salient point, drcommonsense. i realized why your argument sounds so familiar when i read it.

this afternoon, while listening to my 6 year old try to justify why she should be able to do something because her 11 year old sister can, it dawned on me.

just because another society or specialty chooses to put a blind eye to evidence that their procedures do not work is distinct and different than that we do the same about our profession. one cannot use a strawman argument that other specialties are not being introspective, so Pain does not need to be, as a basis of argument.

Actually a better analogy would be one of a morbidly obese guy (>30% BF) deciding to criticize the physique of lean guy that only has a 4 pack with 10% bodyfat for not having a 6 pack and 6% bodyfat.

Obese guy: Wow pal, you don't look perfectly ripped like the fitness model I see on the cover of men's health

Lean guy: Yeah I guess I can lean out a little more and get ripped. You have to remember those men's fitness models are mostly airbrushed and while taking HGH, test, tren and Lasix before their photoshoots. I don't think its possible to get to that level naturally.

Obese guy: Well no excuses man! Its pathetic how your physique is going!

Lean guy: I agree, I can always improve. However, I am getting curious to why an obese guy is criticizing me so much about my body type.

Obese guy: Because that should be the standard of a 6 pack! How dare you look at me! Don't worry about anyone else but yourself! You sound like my 6 year old kid!

Lean Guy: Nah, Ill just remember that the standards you are holding me are basically unrealistic. How about you get down to 15% BF before you start yapping at me.
 
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That is my point drcom.

substitute any specialty society for "obese guy" and any other specialty society for "lean guy".

We have enough &)#^ on our hands that we need to clean. We need to "fix" pain, not other specialties.


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I think we can be introspective without completely altering our practice. As has been pointed out, we often do things, not because we strongly believe our procedures will perform exactly as advertised. Sometimes we do them because, all things considered, the probability that what we do will physically help, added to the placebo effect, added to the hope we are giving the patient, added to other factors tips the scale for action.

My criticism of pain, when we don't strictly follow EBM, is not to force a change or to judge, it's just to keep us honest about it. As long as we're doing things for the right reason, the benefit of the patient, I think we're good.
 
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You can be honest about on an individual level.

But as a whole, biased application of EBM on interventional pain management leads to reimbursement cut on the specialty level and ultimately bad for the growth of the specialty. I don't think he's advocating not to do research, but to not use research or lack of research against the value of what we do.

Remember IPM is a relatively young specialty. When it started out, it started out with anesthesiologists doing epidural without any EBM. Imagine use EBM to justify the existence of interventional "any speciality", the specialty would never come to the existence, as there's simply not enough time and case volumes to support the strict requirement of RCT studies.
 
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Uh? Some of the most inspiring and intelligent people I've met in life are IPM physicians.

On this board maybe, but out in practice. It's scary out there


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I havent performed any MILD procedures, so I cannot comment. I also find this discussion very relevant.
As a hospital based pain physician catering to 20+ PCPs, I often find myself defending IPM. They think that pain physician should write ONLY medications since "injections dont work". We do prescribe, when its appropriate, but our true role is that of a diagnostic physician. Not just injecting.

After giving it much thought, IPM, despite not having level 1 evidence for every procedure, is the most common sense, cost effective and sensible approach to pain management.

What else is there? opioids?? whats the end point on opioids?? surgery?? accupuncture??

Ofcourse weight loss, stress management are critical - but we rarely get a thin, slender, working patient with a full time job. And when we do, they respond beautifully to injections. Most of our patients present with clinical situations where there is not an easy solution.

I have been fortunate enough to have excellent results from my procedures - and I do not say it to gloat, but my referring physicians tell me often. I say this simply because a) there is clear indication to do the procedures, b) patient was educated on the procedure and other alternatives. c) risks and benefits and expectations were made clear d) I do not inject everyone - esp. where I feel the patient is unlikely to benefit.
I feel that at the individual patient level, it is impossible to discuss these studies, because if that patient improves even 30% from the procedure + atleast 30% placebo effect from someone actually giving a **** about their condition and doing something + meds/ weight loss/ CBT+psychological treatment, the patient has already improved.
The choice to perform an appropriate and indicated procedure is based completely on the patient's history and comorbid condition, maybe exam and imaging, and what they want, and psychosocial profile.
To me that is enough of a criteria to perform the procedure since the actual risk of our procedures is very low.
 
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I havent performed any MILD procedures, so I cannot comment. I also find this discussion very relevant.
As a hospital based pain physician catering to 20+ PCPs, I often find myself defending IPM. They think that pain physician should write ONLY medications since "injections dont work". We do prescribe, when its appropriate, but our true role is that of a diagnostic physician. Not just injecting.

After giving it much thought, IPM, despite not having level 1 evidence for every procedure, is the most common sense, cost effective and sensible approach to pain management.

What else is there? opioids?? whats the end point on opioids?? surgery?? accupuncture??

Ofcourse weight loss, stress management are critical - but we rarely get a thin, slender, working patient with a full time job. And when we do, they respond beautifully to injections. Most of our patients present with clinical situations where there is not an easy solution.

I have been fortunate enough to have excellent results from my procedures - and I do not say it to gloat, but my referring physicians tell me often. I say this simply because a) there is clear indication to do the procedures, b) patient was educated on the procedure and other alternatives. c) risks and benefits and expectations were made clear d) I do not inject everyone - esp. where I feel the patient is unlikely to benefit.
I feel that at the individual patient level, it is impossible to discuss these studies, because if that patient improves even 30% from the procedure + atleast 30% placebo effect from someone actually giving a **** about their condition and doing something + meds/ weight loss/ CBT+psychological treatment, the patient has already improved.
The choice to perform an appropriate and indicated procedure is based completely on the patient's history and comorbid condition, maybe exam and imaging, and what they want, and psychosocial profile.
To me that is enough of a criteria to perform the procedure since the actual risk of our procedures is very low.
I agree with the above comments. Like all things political, IPM infringed upon ortho, NS, neurology, PT, chiro, psych, primary care, etc. which is why are subjected to the wrath of our own peers. I know a prick urologist who slams IPM at any chance, not sure why , likely jealousy. Neurologists are the worst of course...
Add the fact that interventions went sky rocketing just as spinal surgeries escalated concomitantly. IPm was shamed by the media/policy Makers , spinal surgeons were curtailed at a policy/insurance level, but never really shamed...
 
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I havent performed any MILD procedures, so I cannot comment. I also find this discussion very relevant.
As a hospital based pain physician catering to 20+ PCPs, I often find myself defending IPM. They think that pain physician should write ONLY medications since "injections dont work". We do prescribe, when its appropriate, but our true role is that of a diagnostic physician. Not just injecting.

After giving it much thought, IPM, despite not having level 1 evidence for every procedure, is the most common sense, cost effective and sensible approach to pain management.

What else is there? opioids?? whats the end point on opioids?? surgery?? accupuncture??

Ofcourse weight loss, stress management are critical - but we rarely get a thin, slender, working patient with a full time job. And when we do, they respond beautifully to injections. Most of our patients present with clinical situations where there is not an easy solution.

I have been fortunate enough to have excellent results from my procedures - and I do not say it to gloat, but my referring physicians tell me often. I say this simply because a) there is clear indication to do the procedures, b) patient was educated on the procedure and other alternatives. c) risks and benefits and expectations were made clear d) I do not inject everyone - esp. where I feel the patient is unlikely to benefit.
I feel that at the individual patient level, it is impossible to discuss these studies, because if that patient improves even 30% from the procedure + atleast 30% placebo effect from someone actually giving a **** about their condition and doing something + meds/ weight loss/ CBT+psychological treatment, the patient has already improved.
The choice to perform an appropriate and indicated procedure is based completely on the patient's history and comorbid condition, maybe exam and imaging, and what they want, and psychosocial profile.
To me that is enough of a criteria to perform the procedure since the actual risk of our procedures is very low.


Nothing "works" by level 1 evidence measures. That would be my response and compare it to alternatives like you have done.

Fortunately, we never have that issue with PCPs would strongly push patients to be treated by us with injections among other things.
 
I agree with the above comments. Like all things political, IPM infringed upon ortho, NS, neurology, PT, chiro, psych, primary care, etc. which is why are subjected to the wrath of our own peers. I know a prick urologist who slams IPM at any chance, not sure why , likely jealousy. Neurologists are the worst of course...
Add the fact that interventions went sky rocketing just as spinal surgeries escalated concomitantly. IPm was shamed by the media/policy Makers , spinal surgeons were curtailed at a policy/insurance level, but never really shamed...


Spine surgeons have been slammed plenty:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-rich-with-fusion-surgery-debunked-by-studies

Here's just one of many articles in bloomberg bashing spine surgeons. Same can be found in NYTimes and many others.
 
Maybe. They sit on most medical boards both regionally and nationally, and their procedure Rvus/codes never get slashed like IPM..... We all are f.cked if ACA and single payer is pushed through...

True but thats a result of politics rather than anything.

I always find it amusing that we hold some neurosurgeon as "independent" when they clearly are pushing their money making procedures.
 
I am actually in the middle. I never said LESI/RF of MBBs/Kypho/mILD/SCS/etc are the "be all end all" that will cure everything.

However, 101N basically says there is no evidence for opioids and interventions based upon "level 1" evidence, so we should get rid of it all.

Yet he fails to mention what will replace this? Fusions? Laminectomy? More PT? NSAIDs?
If no intervention works, at what point are we merely providing interventions to placate patients rather than admitting there is little we can do for them? LBP has particularly poor evidence for surgical intervention and opiates, yet we continue to hand out both like candy. Doing something just for the sake of not doing nothing does not an effective treatment make- and, when complication rates approach up to 16%, as they do for spinal fusions, perhaps doing something is often worse than doing nothing.
 
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If no intervention works, at what point are we merely providing interventions to placate patients rather than admitting there is little we can do for them? LBP has particularly poor evidence for surgical intervention and opiates, yet we continue to hand out both like candy. Doing something just for the sake of not doing nothing does not an effective treatment make- and, when complication rates approach up to 16%, as they do for spinal fusions, perhaps doing something is often worse than doing nothing.

Same could be said for all of procedural medicine:

1) We are handing out stents/CABGs like "candy" without much evidence for mortality benefits with high complication rates
2) We are handing out meniscus surgeries like candy without much evidence with high complication rates
3) We are handing out rotator cuff surgeries like candy without much evidence and high complication rates
4) We are handing out TKR/THR surgeries that only have evidence in younger, healthier patients with few comorbidities to older, high morbidity patients like candy with little evidence and high complication rates.

By that logic, we should really do away with almost all procedural medicine and most pharma too.
 
If no intervention works, at what point are we merely providing interventions to placate patients rather than admitting there is little we can do for them? LBP has particularly poor evidence for surgical intervention and opiates, yet we continue to hand out both like candy. Doing something just for the sake of not doing nothing does not an effective treatment make- and, when complication rates approach up to 16%, as they do for spinal fusions, perhaps doing something is often worse than doing nothing.

We should also do away with prostate surgeries as well mostly.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...-cancer-surgery-shows-no-benefit-for-many-men
 
Same could be said for all of procedural medicine:

1) We are handing out stents/CABGs like "candy" without much evidence for mortality benefits with high complication rates
2) We are handing out meniscus surgeries like candy without much evidence with high complication rates
3) We are handing out rotator cuff surgeries like candy without much evidence and high complication rates
4) We are handing out TKR/THR surgeries that only have evidence in younger, healthier patients with few comorbidities to older, high morbidity patients like candy with little evidence and high complication rates.

By that logic, we should really do away with almost all procedural medicine and most pharma too.
I agree that all of that should be reduced or eliminated except in populations where there is a clearly favorable risk to benefit profile. If orthopedic surgeons were paid only for the surgeries that had a positive outcome, do you believe they would continue to perform so many?
 
Also don't forget flossing your teeth hasn't meet Class one data as well. Leave those rotten pieces of meat in those teeth... Science hasn't supported empiric common sense yet. Examples go on and on....
 
I agree that all of that should be reduced or eliminated except in populations where there is a clearly favorable risk to benefit profile. If orthopedic surgeons were paid only for the surgeries that had a positive outcome, do you believe they would continue to perform so many?

If Orthopedic surgeons were paid for positive outcomes, they would make less than PCPs due to lack of surgical candidates
If Urologists were paid for prostate CA prevention due to prostate surgeries, they would make less than PCPs: http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?Id=3269
If Neurosurgeons/Ortho back surgeons were paid based upon positive outcomes, they would make less than PCP

American medicine rewards procedural medicine despite lack of evidence for almost all of it. It is what it is.
 
I agree that all of that should be reduced or eliminated except in populations where there is a clearly favorable risk to benefit profile. If orthopedic surgeons were paid only for the surgeries that had a positive outcome, do you believe they would continue to perform so many?
We all went to Med school. We know surgeries work based on appropriate patient selection. Should we offer tfesis on obese patients with BMIs above 35? I don't know, but what other option do you offer if ALL other conservative care is exhausted. Shall we try to hypnotize them to lose weight?
 
If Orthopedic surgeons were paid for positive outcomes, they would make less than PCPs
If Urologists were paid for prostate CA prevention due to prostate surgeries, they would make less than PCPs: http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?Id=3269
If Neurosurgeons/Ortho back surgeons were paid based upon positive outcomes, they would make less than PCP

American medicine rewards procedural medicine despite lack of evidence for almost all of it. It is what it is.
And I'm a big fan of that changing- needless procedures cost the nation billions while providing little benefit (and often negative outcomes) for patients. I see no justification for paying for things that not only have not been proven effective, but that have often been proved almost definitively to be ineffective.
 
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We all went to Med school. We know surgeries work based on appropriate patient selection. Should we offer tfesis on obese patients with BMIs above 35? I don't know, but what other option do you offer if ALL other conservative care is exhausted. Shall we try to hypnotize them to lose weight?
Depends on what the outcomes show- if intensive management has little chance of benefit, it should be offered, but not covered by insurance. That's where patient autonomy comes in- they can choose to do stupid things, but insurers should not be forced to cover then.
 
Sounds like youre a fan of basic Medicare for all, and reserved specialized care to the middle and upper middle class. "Parallel health" care system like socialized countries. Not entirely bad, but cost are still high and now you have more class distinction. Rich and privileged get procedures
 
And I'm a big fan of that changing- needless procedures cost the nation billions while providing little benefit (and often negative outcomes) for patients. I see no justification for paying for things that not only have not been proven effective, but that have often been proved almost definitively to be ineffective.

I fully agree but that would lower the salaries of all of procedural medicine specialists to that of PCPs mostly with little to offer their patients.

What would cardiologists offer? No stents, stress tests, etc due to lack of evidence
What would cardiac surgeons offer? Little evidence for CABG. They would have to offer maybe 5% of the total volume as now, so there would be too many surgeons for too few patients.
Urologists would have a few BPH TURP procedures?

Not that simple.
 
I fully agree but that would lower the salaries of all of procedural medicine specialists to that of PCPs mostly with little to offer their patients.

What would cardiologists offer? No stents, stress tests, etc due to lack of evidence
What would cardiac surgeons offer? Little evidence for CABG. They would have to offer maybe 5% of the total volume as now, so there would be too many surgeons for too few patients.
Urologists would have a few BPH TURP procedures?

Not that simple.
The interesting thing here is that if the economy was robust and insurance was affordable(cover by employer in full), these issues tend to disappear....
 
I fully agree but that would lower the salaries of all of procedural medicine specialists to that of PCPs mostly with little to offer their patients.

What would cardiologists offer? No stents, stress tests, etc due to lack of evidence
What would cardiac surgeons offer? Little evidence for CABG. They would have to offer maybe 5% of the total volume as now, so there would be too many surgeons for too few patients.
Urologists would have a few BPH TURP procedures?

Not that simple.
We should be determining what medicine we provide based on what it does for our patients, not based on what it does to the salaries of providers. We could give everyone in the country a preventative appendectomy to boost general surgeon salaries, but it certainly wouldn't be the right thing to do for innumerable reasons.
 
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Welcome to the morass of medical waste Jack:)
 
We should be determining what medicine we provide based on what it does for our patients, not based on what it does to the salaries of providers. We could give everyone in the country a preventative appendectomy to boost general surgeon salaries, but it certainly wouldn't be the right thing to do for innumerable reasons.

I agree that basically all specialists should be cut down to PCP level salaries then since they offer little evidence for benefit over conservative care for the vast majority of cases.

PCPs have been arguing this for years.

We would probably have to shut down Pfizer too and most of big pharma due to the vast majority of meds they offer give no benefit.

Probably have to shut down Boston Scientific/Medtronic/etc or severely reduce them because most of their devices are tired to procedures that have little level 1 evidence too.

This would cut the salaries of all the administrators, CEOs, etc as well. Talking trillions in costs removed.

Lets do it
 
According to ziek Emmanual, professor emeritus from UPENN, and writer of the AcA, anybody over 70 yo should NOT get routine examinations and significant medical care. He's basically a socialist. If you subscribe to his nonsense then take it upon yourself to tell your patients to just go home and suffer/die/corrode away, as that is cost effective for society. Plus there is no evidence that getting your yearly visits are clinically beneficial. Thus according to the logic above, even the pcps should lose volume and revenue.... Works all around, one nice happy socialist family. Does your slippery slope logic makes sense? Interventions work just not in the wrong hands...
 
According to ziek Emmanual, professor emeritus from UPENN, and writer of the AcA, anybody over 70 yo should NOT get routine examinations and significant medical care. He's basically a socialist. If you subscribe to his nonsense then take it upon yourself to tell your patients to just go home and suffer/die/corrode away, as that is cost effective for society. Plus there is no evidence that getting your yearly visits are clinically beneficial. Thus according to the logic above, even the pcps should lose volume and revenue.... Works all around, one nice happy socialist family. Does your slippery slope logic makes sense? Interventions work just not in the wrong hands...

Yeah good point.

What level one evidence is there for yearly physicals or office visits with PCPs? PCPs really have no level one evidence supporting their office visits.

Maybe we should just send everyone to nutritionists and personal trainers instead of PCPs? Have them get a gym membership and a list of approved foods and be done with it.
 
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