Lieberman Suspended

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whopper

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Aside from that the comment itself was, ahem, not the brightest thing I've seen, Lieberman for those of you who don't know, and my explanation is from a psychiatrist to psychiatrists and other health professionals, is a cut above the rest. It's too simple to say he's simply the head of psychiatry at one of the most prestigious psych departments in the world.

1-He headed the CATIE trial, one of the most paradigm changing advancements in psychiatry in the last few decades.
2-He's a former president of the APA.
3-He's one of the only voices in psychiatry calling out psychiatry for at times being BS and pushing the field to do better. He's pointed out several prior norms in our field (some of which are still ongoing but to lesser degrees today) that were backwards and even at that time lacked evidence-base to endorse them, but were still endorsed by our field. I've seen so few psychiatrists willing to do this and so many other psychiatrists willing to criticize our own field did so from a misleading or completely false standpoint such as Peter Breggin or Thomas Szasz.

Adding to the drama, Columbia has done nothing to penalize Mehmet "The Wizard of" Oz, despite that Dr. Oz has said several inappropriate comments time after time with transparently clear intent to profit and attain fame. One can rightly argue that Lieberman should be suspended but cannot argue Lieberman should and nothing should happen to the "Wizard."

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Fired. Not suspended. He’s removed from all admin duties. Lol but I’m intrigued by your sympathetic perspective. Gutsy as u r not nearly as psudononymous as many here.

I think he deserves to be fired a long time ago for other tweets and various other things. That being said, the lesson here being handed to us isn’t the lesson that the administrative apparatus wants to teach us. The administrative apparatus has underlying incentives which are frequently discussed in this forum (consolidation, academic funding environment, role of NP, public-insurance negotiations, role of industry and regulators, etc), which compels to make it do one thing vs another. Listen to posters here and you get a much more accurate perspective of the state of American psychiatry.

Many similar situations recently (I.e. Eric Lander, etc)

We are increasingly moving towards a world where IRL/public social media info are often either pure manipulative lies and fake news or administrative doublespeak, and specific small communities like SDN/Reddit/discord and perhaps behind closed doors are the only place where you can find honest and valuable opinions.

Be careful [on social media] out there, grasshoppers.
 
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One can honestly argue Lieberman should've been fired. I get it. There's such a thing as disagreeing but finding other person's argument sound, intellectually honest, and based on valid tenets. I respect someone criticizing racism who never did anything racist in all of it's varying degrees subtle to extreme.

What I don't get is Lieberman being fired but nothing happening to the Wizard. I find it odd to say the least when a racist starts complaining about racism, or in the Wizard's case, which is in the extreme, selling supplements based on fraudulent claims, making idiotic comments such as kids being in school and possibly dying as "appetizing" and putting people on his show as honored guests who've been proven to be quacks, doing so time and time again for years.
 
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I mean. Why not let people make their comments. What does it even mean, what was his intent to have the phrase…freak of nature…in his tweet? No explanation…just an apology…not very satisfying to me. I’d be shocked if he truly had racist intent behind it. In sports freak of nature is often a positive thing. Can a woman being a freak of nature have similar positive connotations, meaning she’s so beautiful it’s completely abnormal and unexpected…in a good way. Is Lieberman marrried? If so I imagine it would be embarrassing to explain in public that he’s just super attracted to another woman, sorry wife of 30+ years I’m a man and you’re old and I look lustfully at other women sometimes…but I’m not racist I just think she’s super hot. That comment is maybe closer to the truth but could never be said publicly for a variety of reasons.

What I find sad is the disgusting sterility of LinkedIn posts will become the norm for social media as anything that can be spun as counter to the reactive press will have you pilloried.
 
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Can a woman being a freak of nature have similar positive connotations, meaning she’s so beautiful it’s completely abnormal and unexpected…in a good way.
No, no it can not.
 
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No, no it can not.

Maybe I'm just more involved in sports contexts more than most (playing and coaching at various levels), but freak of nature as a term has been pretty much a 100% positive in my world, regardless of gender. I don't know much about the context of Lieberman's tweet, but the phrase itself is not inherently bad in some way.
 
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Maybe I'm just more involved in sports contexts more than most (playing and coaching at various levels), but freak of nature as a term has been pretty much a 100% positive in my world, regardless of gender. I don't know much about the context of Lieberman's tweet, but the phrase itself is not inherently bad in some way.
As per one of the links in the OP, his tweet was: "Whether a work of art or freak of nature she’s a beautiful sight to behold." That was in response to a tweet with a picture of her, stating that it wasn't a work of art made of black stone but instead a model with the darkest skin on Earth. I don't know how to read this other than him saying that her level of dark skin makes her a freak.
 
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As per one of the links in the OP, his tweet was: "Whether a work of art or freak of nature she’s a beautiful sight to behold." That was in response to a tweet with a picture of her, stating that it wasn't a work of art made of black stone but instead a model with the darkest skin on Earth. I don't know how to read this other than him saying that her level of dark skin makes her a freak.

At the least, definitely a poor choice of words given our current climate. But I don't agree that it's unequivocally meant in a negative light. I'd agree with nexus that some people can definitely use it in a positive way. Whether or not that's how Lieberman meant it, is another issue. I don't know him personally, and I don't use social media, so I can't comment on his past words and actions to make a guess either way.
 
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Maybe I'm just more involved in sports contexts more than most (playing and coaching at various levels), but freak of nature as a term has been pretty much a 100% positive in my world, regardless of gender. I don't know much about the context of Lieberman's tweet, but the phrase itself is not inherently bad in some way.
It is, but it's usually used to refer to someone's above-average athletic ability, not the color of their skin, which is a hot-button topic for most people of color, as I'm sure you know. I would really like to know what the woman's honest reaction was to the comment, but I'm sure she feels all kinds of external pressure to react in the "correct" way, so I doubt that'd we would ever get it in a public statement.
 
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It is, but it's usually used to refer to someone's above-average athletic ability, not the color of their skin, which is a hot-button topic for most people of color, as I'm sure you know. I would really like to know what the woman's honest reaction was to the comment, but I'm sure she feels all kinds of external pressure to react in the "correct" way, so I doubt that'd we would ever get it in a public statement.

Definitely more used in athletic contexts, but I have heard and seen it used in others in the same positive way, as in someone is an outlier in some characteristic. I also agree that it can be used and/or seen negatively. I just don't agree that it's a cut and dry case in all contexts.
 
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How does this compare to say a Nemeroff and what went on with his ousting at Emory? I imagine both of these guys are in the same "power" league. It feels like Lieberman got much less leeway in this situation which is somewhat surprising.
 
Nemeroff's issue was he was getting money and it clearly violated specific ethics rules in print he was not supposed to violate.

So in Nemeroff's case there was a clear, "it's in black and white print" that makes his case very hard to defend. Also it wasn't in the arguable slight boo-boo such as a one-off tweet. Nemeroff, for example, if he wanted to make it out to be a slight boo-boo could've returned the money, signs several documents and made several announcements before lectures saying he had no conflict of interest, and the relationships where he was getting inappropriate payments were ongoing for long durations.

Repeating what I wrote above, I find what Mehmet Oz doing far more reprehensible, ongoing, and unapologetic on Oz's part than what Lieberman did yet Columbia is doing nothing against Oz.

And I'm being completely honest-I do find the term "freak of nature" not a good thing, especially because it's juxtaposed against "work of art" suggesting it's an opposite thing. Just that I and writing all of this is a sympathetic tone towards Lieberman because of his prior accomplishments, his apology, he doesn't have an going chronic history of doing something extremely inappropriate, and because we are living in a hypersensitive "woke" era where everyone is offended with everything, and that includes the people claiming they're against being "woke" and "cancel culture." Those same idiots are wanting football players fired for taking public stands and books banned.
 
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So, disclaimer first: I am totally against racism of any sort, and I'm not perfect in all aspects of thought and action, either.

I don't know Lieberman's supposed comment history outside the academic things whopper mentioned. I dont follow his twitter. All I've seen online is nebulous unsupported claims that it is lengthy and very bad. I do think if this comment is a first or even second offense that firing is very harsh for a comment that seems to be taken as racist by some people but not others, including people of color. Hopefully Columbia had done proper due process and isn't simply knee jerk reacting to Twitter outrage, of which there is no shortage on any topic. I saw some people of color comment that the glee some are taking in Lieberman's downfall is gross, and I agree with that. Some people act like they just won the lottery to see someone's misfortune.

What I take away from this for myself is that mixing one's professional online accounts with personal is a very bad idea. You cannot browse for entertainment or non-professional news on a professional account. Eventually you will say something that will offend someone else, and you will get crucified for it, and apologies are not accepted by the public anymore. Anonymous posting is a little better but not completely safe, either. There is an increasingly long list of topics and sensitivities that must be avoided and even the most progressive and up to date person can be caught out for the wrong phrase or action at any time.
 
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I think he deserves to be fired a long time ago for other tweets and various other things.
I don't know the exact context of the recent tweet, but I'd be curious to know what other potentially inflammatory or inappropriate things he's said.

What I don't get is Lieberman being fired but nothing happening to the Wizard. I find it odd to say the least when a racist starts complaining about racism, or in the Wizard's case, which is in the extreme, selling supplements based on fraudulent claims, making idiotic comments such as kids being in school and possibly dying as "appetizing" and putting people on his show as honored guests who've been proven to be quacks, doing so time and time again for years.
I was going to say that it's different because Lieberman directly holds a position at Columbia while Oz is just a notable alumni, but it looks like he does still hold a "professor emeritus" position so I agree with you at least in that context.

No, no it can not.
I strongly disagree, there are plenty of people who are considered "freakishly" good-looking. The phrasing (in general, not specifically this situation) is used in a manner inferring positive connotations all the time.

As per one of the links in the OP, his tweet was: "Whether a work of art or freak of nature she’s a beautiful sight to behold." That was in response to a tweet with a picture of her, stating that it wasn't a work of art made of black stone but instead a model with the darkest skin on Earth. I don't know how to read this other than him saying that her level of dark skin makes her a freak.
I can see both sides of this. Lieberman making a tone-deaf comment thinking that the "freak of nature" part was to emphasize his thoughts on her beauty and the more obvious connotation of being that dark-skinned makes her a freak. I think this is likely a great example of microaggressions where one person makes a statement with the intent of it being a compliment without realizing they are being condescending or derogatory. I think it's important to explore whether statements like this are made out of ignorance or are more malicious and that there is a difference in how we address them. We had a lecture on cultural humility recently that dove into this and this would have fit perfectly. All that being said, he's the chair of psychiatry at an elite institution and I don't disagree with the argument that someone in that position should be more culturally aware than this, especially in a place as diverse as NYC.
 
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It is, but it's usually used to refer to someone's above-average athletic ability, not the color of their skin, which is a hot-button topic for most people of color, as I'm sure you know. I would really like to know what the woman's honest reaction was to the comment, but I'm sure she feels all kinds of external pressure to react in the "correct" way, so I doubt that'd we would ever get it in a public statement.
She took it in the context of being racist. From a recent interview with her:

'In an interview Wednesday night, Gatwech said "Coming from somebody with so much power, that was so disappointing. I was like, this is straight up racism."'
 
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i, but it looks like he does still hold a "professor emeritus" position so I agree with you at least in that context.
Due to your post, I checked, and yes he is now emeritus, but just weeks ago was Vice Chair and had been for over 10 years of him pulling quack shenanigans.
 
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What I take away from this for myself is that mixing one's professional online accounts with personal is a very bad idea. You cannot browse for entertainment or non-professional news on a professional account. Eventually you will say something that will offend someone else, and you will get crucified for it, and apologies are not accepted by the public anymore. Anonymous posting is a little better but not completely safe, either. There is an increasingly long list of topics and sensitivities that must be avoided and even the most progressive and up to date person can be caught out for the wrong phrase or action at any time.
This 100%, and I think it's a sad reality of our current society. When I started med school I wanted to do a bi-weekly or monthly Youtube channel or podcast on what med school was like, just so pre-meds could get a better feel of what it was like to be in med school. What stopped me was the fear that someone would watch it (like school administration) and it could end my career. It's also why I don't have social media accounts outside of SDN and FB which I no longer post on. An innocuous statement can easily be taken the wrong way or misconstrued and once one is judged in the court of public opinion getting crucified is inevitable and organizations often have little choice but to cut ties or strongly risk going down with them.
 
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I agree with others that "freak of nature" is often (and I think typically) used to mean "anomalously good." I suspect Dr. Lieberman meant for the term to be read that way. With that said, I completely understand why it would be offensive. I think apologizing (which he did) is appropriate. The immediate firing and shunning, though, I find worrisome.

Which seems more likely, that Dr. Lieberman sat and wrote that tweet hoping to degrade and belittle dark-skinned people? Or that he tried to offer a compliment but did so in a tone-deaf way, possibly even a way revealing some unconscious bias? If the latter (good intentions gone wrong), why not work with him to improve rather than firing and professionally shunning him? It seems to be a very "all or nothing" approach, viewing him as irredeemable after a single mistake (unless there is a history of problematic comments that, for some reason, was not shared in articles on the issue). It's the kind of thing we typically advise our patients not to do, and it seems to suggest that we view Dr. Lieberman as so far gone that working with him to improve as a person and a professional is unreasonable.

It is also unsettling that even in this thread, one poster has (correctly) pointed out that even suggesting any course other than firing and shunning Dr. Lieberman is a dangerous professional stance to take. I agree, and would be very hesitant to voice the opinion I am posting here publicly out of the fear of facing significant personal and professional backlash myself. I wish, though, that we could approach these issues with more nuance. If someone knowingly and repeatedly engages in acts of racial bias, then yeah, they need to go. But for cases like this one, I wish we could view people as imperfect, acknowledge that they make mistakes, and hold them accountable without going to the extreme of making them a pariah.
 
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He has a long history of making completely inappropriate statements including anti-black racist comments. He was long disliked in many sectors for a multitude of reasons and if weren’t so disliked including in his own department he might have been able to survive this. The man has been an embarrassment to our field for a long time. I’m surprised he lasted this long
 
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Aside from that the comment itself was, ahem, not the brightest thing I've seen, Lieberman for those of you who don't know, and my explanation is from a psychiatrist to psychiatrists and other health professionals, is a cut above the rest. It's too simple to say he's simply the head of psychiatry at one of the most prestigious psych departments in the world.

1-He headed the CATIE trial, one of the most paradigm changing advancements in psychiatry in the last few decades.
2-He's a former president of the APA.
3-He's one of the only voices in psychiatry calling out psychiatry for at times being BS and pushing the field to do better. He's pointed out several prior norms in our field (some of which are still ongoing but to lesser degrees today) that were backwards and even at that time lacked evidence-base to endorse them, but were still endorsed by our field. I've seen so few psychiatrists willing to do this and so many other psychiatrists willing to criticize our own field did so from a misleading or completely false standpoint such as Peter Breggin or Thomas Szasz.

Adding to the drama, Columbia has done nothing to penalize Mehmet "The Wizard of" Oz, despite that Dr. Oz has said several inappropriate comments time after time with transparently clear intent to profit and attain fame. One can rightly argue that Lieberman should be suspended but cannot argue Lieberman should and nothing should happen to the "Wizard."
I thought he was irresponsible with his recommendations for very high doses of stimulants.
 
He has a long history of making completely inappropriate statements including anti-black racist comments. He was long disliked in many sectors for a multitude of reasons and if weren’t so disliked including in his own department he might have been able to survive this. The man has been an embarrassment to our field for a long time. I’m surprised he lasted this long
are these like comments in small groups, or has he tweeted stuff like this before?
 
I agree with others that "freak of nature" is often (and I think typically) used to mean "anomalously good." I suspect Dr. Lieberman meant for the term to be read that way. With that said, I completely understand why it would be offensive. I think apologizing (which he did) is appropriate. The immediate firing and shunning, though, I find worrisome.

Which seems more likely, that Dr. Lieberman sat and wrote that tweet hoping to degrade and belittle dark-skinned people? Or that he tried to offer a compliment but did so in a tone-deaf way, possibly even a way revealing some unconscious bias? If the latter (good intentions gone wrong), why not work with him to improve rather than firing and professionally shunning him? It seems to be a very "all or nothing" approach, viewing him as irredeemable after a single mistake (unless there is a history of problematic comments that, for some reason, was not shared in articles on the issue). It's the kind of thing we typically advise our patients not to do, and it seems to suggest that we view Dr. Lieberman as so far gone that working with him to improve as a person and a professional is unreasonable.

It is also unsettling that even in this thread, one poster has (correctly) pointed out that even suggesting any course other than firing and shunning Dr. Lieberman is a dangerous professional stance to take. I agree, and would be very hesitant to voice the opinion I am posting here publicly out of the fear of facing significant personal and professional backlash myself. I wish, though, that we could approach these issues with more nuance. If someone knowingly and repeatedly engages in acts of racial bias, then yeah, they need to go. But for cases like this one, I wish we could view people as imperfect, acknowledge that they make mistakes, and hold them accountable without going to the extreme of making them a pariah.
While I definitely do not agree with the whole cancel culture mob mentality, this was not the case here. He has a long history for inappropriate comments before and has been called out for comments that black psychiatrists experienced as racist previously. He did not immediately remove his tweet, and in fact doubled down, then had some non-apology apology which did not appreciate how his comments might have been hurtful, and then later released a more contrite apology when his position was under threat. He has a lot of enemies who were ready to pounce and it was faculty at Columbia (primarily the analysts who he long made enemies of) that called for his resignation, not twitter warriors.

It just so happens there is a racial reckoning happening right now that is putting certain things under the microscope. From what Ive hear, UCLA psychiatry is next on the hit list with accusations of racism.
 
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The comment was bad. The consequences seem to indicate that this was not a first incident kind of thing.
 
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He has a long history for inappropriate comments before and has been called out for comments that black psychiatrists experienced as racist previously.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but more likely I'm ignorant. What comments has he made that fit the above description?
 
So, disclaimer first: I am totally against racism of any sort, and I'm not perfect in all aspects of thought and action, either.

I don't know Lieberman's supposed comment history outside the academic things whopper mentioned. I dont follow his twitter. All I've seen online is nebulous unsupported claims that it is lengthy and very bad. I do think if this comment is a first or even second offense that firing is very harsh for a comment that seems to be taken as racist by some people but not others, including people of color. Hopefully Columbia had done proper due process and isn't simply knee jerk reacting to Twitter outrage, of which there is no shortage on any topic. I saw some people of color comment that the glee some are taking in Lieberman's downfall is gross, and I agree with that. Some people act like they just won the lottery to see someone's misfortune.

What I take away from this for myself is that mixing one's professional online accounts with personal is a very bad idea. You cannot browse for entertainment or non-professional news on a professional account. Eventually you will say something that will offend someone else, and you will get crucified for it, and apologies are not accepted by the public anymore. Anonymous posting is a little better but not completely safe, either. There is an increasingly long list of topics and sensitivities that must be avoided and even the most progressive and up to date person can be caught out for the wrong phrase or action at any time.
Absolutely. It's hard to understand the use of 'Twitter' by an academic or anyone with such a significant public facing position. Right, wrong, or indifferent, we're just seeing too many people's occupational/professional lives ended due to typing into a medium with an enforced, what, 140 character limit? Kind of hard to even provide much context when you're constrained like that. Tends to promote degeneration of 'discussion' into Idiocracy.
 
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I mean. Why not let people make their comments. What does it even mean, what was his intent to have the phrase…freak of nature…in his tweet? No explanation…just an apology…not very satisfying to me. I’d be shocked if he truly had racist intent behind it. In sports freak of nature is often a positive thing. Can a woman being a freak of nature have similar positive connotations, meaning she’s so beautiful it’s completely abnormal and unexpected…in a good way. Is Lieberman marrried? If so I imagine it would be embarrassing to explain in public that he’s just super attracted to another woman, sorry wife of 30+ years I’m a man and you’re old and I look lustfully at other women sometimes…but I’m not racist I just think she’s super hot. That comment is maybe closer to the truth but could never be said publicly for a variety of reasons.

What I find sad is the disgusting sterility of LinkedIn posts will become the norm for social media as anything that can be spun as counter to the reactive press will have you pilloried.

Maybe I'm just more involved in sports contexts more than most (playing and coaching at various levels), but freak of nature as a term has been pretty much a 100% positive in my world, regardless of gender. I don't know much about the context of Lieberman's tweet, but the phrase itself is not inherently bad in some way.

Never say this to any woman about how she looks. You will (and should) get your ass handed to you. "Freak" of any kind is not a positive connotation and whoever said it was when referring to how someone looks lied to you.
 
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He posted something racist and when many people, including multiple women of color, told him politely it was offensive and asked him to delete it he doubled down for 48 hours. This was not a momentary lapse but a complete unwillingness to listen and take responsibility. When the offending tweet was finally deleted he issued a Twitter non apology “to those who were offended “

Letting him stay would have a chilling effect on the department

Yes, Dr Oz also sucks but that’s a different discussion
 
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I agree with others that "freak of nature" is often (and I think typically) used to mean "anomalously good." I suspect Dr. Lieberman meant for the term to be read that way. With that said, I completely understand why it would be offensive. I think apologizing (which he did) is appropriate. The immediate firing and shunning, though, I find worrisome.

Which seems more likely, that Dr. Lieberman sat and wrote that tweet hoping to degrade and belittle dark-skinned people? Or that he tried to offer a compliment but did so in a tone-deaf way, possibly even a way revealing some unconscious bias? If the latter (good intentions gone wrong), why not work with him to improve rather than firing and professionally shunning him? It seems to be a very "all or nothing" approach, viewing him as irredeemable after a single mistake (unless there is a history of problematic comments that, for some reason, was not shared in articles on the issue). It's the kind of thing we typically advise our patients not to do, and it seems to suggest that we view Dr. Lieberman as so far gone that working with him to improve as a person and a professional is unreasonable.

It is also unsettling that even in this thread, one poster has (correctly) pointed out that even suggesting any course other than firing and shunning Dr. Lieberman is a dangerous professional stance to take. I agree, and would be very hesitant to voice the opinion I am posting here publicly out of the fear of facing significant personal and professional backlash myself. I wish, though, that we could approach these issues with more nuance. If someone knowingly and repeatedly engages in acts of racial bias, then yeah, they need to go. But for cases like this one, I wish we could view people as imperfect, acknowledge that they make mistakes, and hold them accountable without going to the extreme of making them a pariah.

I think those of you applying it to athletics aren't making the distinction between applying to someone's "ability" vs someone's "looks". You don't call someone a "freak" based on their looks. Just think of it a different way. Say there was someone who was born without any limbs and he called them a "freak of nature". Doubt anyone would even bring up any potential positive connotations there.
 
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He has a long history of making completely inappropriate statements including anti-black racist comments. He was long disliked in many sectors for a multitude of reasons and if weren’t so disliked including in his own department he might have been able to survive this. The man has been an embarrassment to our field for a long time. I’m surprised he lasted this long
Source? I believe you, but I'm really curious to read more.

Also, I always find it interesting what people get fired for and what they don't. For example, I'm still surprised that Esther Choo faced no apparent consequences from OHSU after that sexual harassment case where her comments and actions came to light and both a) raised serious questions about whether she failed to follow institutional sexual harassment policies and put OHSU and its employees at risk in doing so and b) kind of obliterated her public persona wrt gender equality and sexual harassment in healthcare.
 
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I think those of you applying it to athletics aren't making the distinction between applying to someone's "ability" vs someone's "looks". You don't call someone a "freak" based on their looks. Just think of it a different way. Say there was someone who was born without any limbs and he called them a "freak of nature". Doubt anyone would even bring up any potential positive connotations there.
I think we could go round and round on this. This Vogue article uses the term "freakishly beautiful" in way to indicate someone is extremely good looking. Breathless: The Pitfalls of Dating the Freakishly Attractive

And here's a salon called "Freak of Nature Beauty" which appears to be owned by a black woman. Waxing | Freak of Nature Beauty

So I don't know but it seems like your opinion that using the word freak to describe one's looks as 100% absolutely a negative connotation isn't necessarily correct.

edit: and Lieberman can still be a closet racist despite this, per splik's comments
 
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I think we could go round and round on this. This Vogue article uses the term "freakishly beautiful" in way to indicate someone is extremely good looking. Breathless: The Pitfalls of Dating the Freakishly Attractive

Freakishly beautiful is not the same thing as a freak of nature. Just because the word "freak" is used doesn't mean it's saying or inferring the same thing. Freak of nature is equivalent to side-show freak, not freakishly beautiful.

And here's a salon called "Freak of Nature Beauty" which appears to be owned by a black woman. Waxing | Freak of Nature Beauty

Look, the phrase is not a compliment. There's a reason there was such an uproar. If your argument is that it isn't an insult because some black woman used it for her company, I don't know what to tell you because that isn't a winning argument.


So I don't know but it seems like your opinion that using the word freak to describe one's looks as 100% absolutely a negative connotation isn't necessarily correct.

How is an opinion correct or incorrect? But regardless, try it out. Go up to a woman and tell her "you look like a freak of nature" and see how far you get.
 
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Freakishly beautiful is not the same thing as a freak of nature. Just because the word "freak" is used doesn't mean it's saying or inferring the same thing. Freak of nature is equivalent to side-show freak, not freakishly beautiful.



Look, the phrase is not a compliment. There's a reason there was such an uproar. If your argument is that it isn't an insult because some black woman used it for her company, I don't know what to tell you because that isn't a winning argument.




How is an opinion correct or incorrect? But regardless, try it out. Go up to a woman and tell her "you look like a freak of nature" and see how far you get.
People being outraged and in an uproar does not prove something was right or wrong. People get outraged all the time these days. Your opinion is that it’s never a positive connotation. I disagree. I’m not arguing it’s something I would say, but it’s an odd tweet that doesn’t seem obviously racist the way others insist it is. I think it’s fair to discuss the concept as it’s not cut and dry in my opinion. You seem pretty confident that my opinion is incorrect, for what it’s worth.
 
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People being outraged and in an uproar does not prove something was right or wrong. People get outraged all the time these days.

People being outraged does prove that some find it offensive. It isn't like people out of nowhere are choosing to be outraged over this. It's offensive to a large number of people including, apparently, the model in question.


Your opinion is that it’s never a positive connotation. I disagree. I’m not arguing it’s something I would say, but it’s an odd tweet that doesn’t seem obviously racist the way others insist it is.

I don't think he intended to be racist, but any time you call someone a "freak of nature" because of their skin color, there are racist undertones to that. 100%. See my example. Would you call someone who is disabled a "freak of nature"? What exactly is the difference? For the record, if someone called someone who had very light skin a "freak of nature", I'd think that's wrong too.

I think it’s fair to discuss the concept as it’s not cut and dry in my opinion. You seem pretty confident that my opinion is incorrect, for what it’s worth.

I didn't call your opinion incorrect. I don't even know what you're arguing to tell you the truth. That this wasn't offensive, despite so many people being offended? Or that it's not always offensive (an argument for which you can't find an example where the term is directed at someone's looks)?
 
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I mean FLK is a working diagnosis . . .

Parent: What's wrong with my kid?

Doctor: I don't know, but he sure is funny looking . . .

I always found that very amusing. Funny's probably better than freak, but probably neither is what a parent wants to hear.
How is an opinion correct or incorrect? But regardless, try it out. Go up to a woman and tell her "you look like a freak of nature" and see how far you get.
Apparently this is a thing that can get you somewhere. It's called "negging."

It's weird because when I took Spanish back in high school in the 1990s we had a section where we learned "piropos" which are pick-up lines.

There were some normal ones like, "Tantas curva y yo sin frenas" (So many curves and me without breaks)

But then there were some mean ones like, "Donde fue el acidente?" (Where was the accident? --meaning someone was so ugly there must have been an accident)

But now nearly 30 years later it's apparently a thing—called negging. Our Spanish teacher was onto something.
 
Nemeroff's issue was he was getting money and it clearly violated specific ethics rules in print he was not supposed to violate.

So in Nemeroff's case there was a clear, "it's in black and white print" that makes his case very hard to defend. Also it wasn't in the arguable slight boo-boo such as a one-off tweet. Nemeroff, for example, if he wanted to make it out to be a slight boo-boo could've returned the money, signs several documents and made several announcements before lectures saying he had no conflict of interest, and the relationships where he was getting inappropriate payments were ongoing for long durations.
And yet he was offered a position at a different institution and continues to be invited to speak at multiple conferences. Time will tell where this ends up but if Lieberman doesn't land on his feet like others have I suspect it will be related to his likeability factor or lack thereof.
 
The conflicting issue with Nemeroff is yes he messed up and messed up in a way that he should've been penalized. The conflict is do you then cast out one of the greatest living minds in the field that can contribute much more?

Far better to penalize the guy, then allow him to continue after paying his penalty but on a leash so he doesn't do it again. Kind of like Frank Abagnale, the real life character of Catch Me if You Can. The guy stole millions in fake checks, is eventually caught, but after serving several months in a federal prison then the FBI release him on the condition that he work for them helping them to catch other frauds.

In Nemeroff's case, IMHO, he got off too lightly. He should've payed some type of financial penalty such as having to return the money from pharmaceuticals which would've likely amounted to millions of dollars, but repeating myself, the guy likely has several more advancements he could contribute to the field.

Time will tell where this ends up but if Lieberman doesn't land on his feet like others have I suspect it will be related to his likeability factor or lack thereof.

I have no idea what Lieberman will do but he doesn't appear to be an academic gypsy as some of us (at least in my case formerly) in academia call it. Also he's older and if you love NYC you do not want to leave NYC. Nothing will replace it. I've lived just outside NYC for 3 decades.

An academic gypsy is a type of professor who isn't going to settle in their current institution and is willing to make cross state, even country moves to advance their career. Such moves are often times mandatory if you want to get to the upper echelons of the field. Further, because high academia isn't everywhere the usual roads force such professors to leave.

E.g. Say you're a Ph.D. in any field. You apply for a professor's position. Not every town in the USA has a university or college with a graduate department. So you apply to 10 places. It's like applying to college all over again and having to go to the best college for you even if it's on the other side of the country. So say you're at the new place in a new location and after being there 5 years you realize you're going to only go so far and another university in a different area of the country contacts you and wants you to head something at their institution with a big promotion.

In medical academia this phenomenon still exists but not as much. Most physicians are in a position where they can just get out of academia, work clinically, and decide not to move especially since for most physicians getting married and having kids is only a few years after residency if not sooner. Who wants to move if you don't have to do so? But if you're say, a Ph.D. mathematician or physicist you just can't stop your job and open up some type of Math or Physics business.

The upper areas of medical academia you do, however, still see academic gypsies. I don't know Lieberman for real and I'm not going to BS that the few times I've met him in person qualifies that I know this guy. He doesn't seem, however, to be the sort. He's older, lived in NYC for decades, people who've done so will not want to leave that lifestyle, and is likely closer to retirement than starting over again.

My wife and I were and even now are in that position. I couldn't stand my last academic institution and I would've had to move yet again and either come back to U of Cincinnati (that told me they'd love to have me back) or go to a different place. The other institution in the city, Washington U did talk to me and told me to consider joining them, but I was told by some others that this could be seen as a backstab because other professors did what I had done and they were perceived as backstabbers. I just instead left academia. Yeah it was sad, especially since I would've been happy staying at my prior job in academia in Cincinnati. Making 3x as much money, working about 60% of the hours, and being in new positions where the organization tells me they need me and shows me that respect did quite a bit to ease the transition. My wife gets offers from institutions outside the state at least every few months and her current job has become toxic. Her choices? Leave academia, stay in a toxic job, or we move to a different state.

But getting back to Lieberman and Columbia, I don't know if Lieberman will even remain in the institution, and repeating myself, what they did to Lieberman is peanuts compared to Oz. Yes it's a different case but it's the same administration in the same institution which is why I find it so in-our-faces questionable. IMHO the administration at Columbia ought to be suspended for letting Oz go as far as he did without consequences if you want to get hypersensitive woke although I'm being serious. The torches, pitchforks and knives are only focusing on one guy here when there's others. It's like firing some guy for slapping his secretary on the rear end but not firing the guy who pinched the bosom of his secretary for over 10 years day after day after day despite complaints and both guys worked right next to each other in the same building and everyone in that same building knew all of this was going on.
 
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I find it pathetic that these bright people are making such ignorant mistakes in 2022.

Racist or not, this is a leader in the field making stupid comments to the public. At some point you have to let natural selection take these people away from the field. In 1995 he probably could make these comments all day and no one would bat an eye. You need to be smarter in 2022 - pull stunts like this and you need to be erased. Thank you for the CATIE trial. Now get out of my sight.

Our med school on day one had during orientation a talk about how mistakes in social media can cost you your career. This is the modern era where professionalism is on display, forever, and saved to the cloud to be viewed by millions within minutes. Make a mistake and you're fired. No one is "above the law" in this profession. They made it clear to us, and these rules apply to everyone.

If you can't cut it, you're off the team.
 
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The conflicting issue with Nemeroff is yes he messed up and messed up in a way that he should've been penalized. The conflict is do you then cast out one of the greatest living minds in the field that can contribute much more?

Far better to penalize the guy, then allow him to continue after paying his penalty but on a leash so he doesn't do it again. Kind of like Frank Abagnale, the real life character of Catch Me if You Can. The guy stole millions in fake checks, is eventually caught, but after serving several months in a federal prison then the FBI release him on the condition that he work for them helping them to catch other frauds.

In Nemeroff's case, IMHO, he got off too lightly. He should've payed some type of financial penalty such as having to return the money from pharmaceuticals which would've likely amounted to millions of dollars, but repeating myself, the guy likely has several more advancements he could contribute to the field.



I have no idea what Lieberman will do but he doesn't appear to be an academic gypsy as some of us (at least in my case formerly) in academia call it. Also he's older and if you love NYC you do not want to leave NYC. Nothing will replace it. I've lived just outside NYC for 3 decades.

An academic gypsy is a type of professor who isn't going to settle in their current institution and is willing to make cross state, even country moves to advance their career. Such moves are often times mandatory if you want to get to the upper echelons of the field. Further, because high academia isn't everywhere the usual roads force such professors to leave.

E.g. Say you're a Ph.D. in any field. You apply for a professor's position. Not every town in the USA has a university or college with a graduate department. So you apply to 10 places. It's like applying to college all over again and having to go to the best college for you even if it's on the other side of the country. So say you're at the new place in a new location and after being there 5 years you realize you're going to only go so far and another university in a different area of the country contacts you and wants you to head something at their institution with a big promotion.

In medical academia this phenomenon still exists but not as much. Most physicians are in a position where they can just get out of academia, work clinically, and decide not to move especially since for most physicians getting married and having kids is only a few years after residency if not sooner. Who wants to move if you don't have to do so? But if you're say, a Ph.D. mathematician or physicist you just can't stop your job and open up some type of Math or Physics business.

The upper areas of medical academia you do, however, still see academic gypsies. I don't know Lieberman for real and I'm not going to BS that the few times I've met him in person qualifies that I know this guy. He doesn't seem, however, to be the sort. He's older, lived in NYC for decades, people who've done so will not want to leave that lifestyle, and is likely closer to retirement than starting over again.

My wife and I were and even now are in that position. I couldn't stand my last academic institution and I would've had to move yet again and either come back to U of Cincinnati (that told me they'd love to have me back) or go to a different place. The other institution in the city, Washington U did talk to me and told me to consider joining them, but I was told by some others that this could be seen as a backstab because other professors did what I had done and they were perceived as backstabbers. I just instead left academia. Yeah it was sad, especially since I would've been happy staying at my prior job in academia in Cincinnati. Making 3x as much money, working about 60% of the hours, and being in new positions where the organization tells me they need me and shows me that respect did quite a bit to ease the transition. My wife gets offers from institutions outside the state at least every few months and her current job has become toxic. Her choices? Leave academia, stay in a toxic job, or we move to a different state.

But getting back to Lieberman and Columbia, I don't know if Lieberman will even remain in the institution, and repeating myself, what they did to Lieberman is peanuts compared to Oz. Yes it's a different case but it's the same administration in the same institution which is why I find it so in-our-faces questionable. IMHO the administration at Columbia ought to be suspended for letting Oz go as far as he did without consequences if you want to get hypersensitive woke although I'm being serious. The torches, pitchforks and knives are only focusing on one guy here when there's others. It's like firing some guy for slapping his secretary on the rear end but not firing the guy who pinched the bosom of his secretary for over 10 years day after day after day despite complaints and both guys worked right next to each other in the same building and everyone in that same building knew all of this was going on.
Columbia has an academic opening, if you're interested.
 
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I find it pathetic that these bright people are making such ignorant mistakes in 2022.

Racist or not, this is a leader in the field making stupid comments to the public. At some point you have to let natural selection take these people away from the field. In 1995 he probably could make these comments all day and no one would bat an eye. You need to be smarter in 2022 - pull stunts like this and you need to be erased. Thank you for the CATIE trial. Now get out of my sight.

Our med school on day one had during orientation a talk about how mistakes in social media can cost you your career. This is the modern era where professionalism is on display, forever, and saved to the cloud to be viewed by millions within minutes. Make a mistake and you're fired. No one is "above the law" in this profession. They made it clear to us, and these rules apply to everyone.

If you can't cut it, you're off the team.
I don't think this has been taught to older people. Human brains are bad at many things, and one is comprehending the reach of a social media post, and how much effect a bad post can have on your life. Especially if you're a boomer like Lieberman.
 
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I don't think this has been taught to older people. Human brains are bad at many things, and one is comprehending the reach of a social media post, and how much effect a bad post can have on your life. Especially if you're a boomer like Lieberman.
I agree. However I posit that social media is not new, and this is not early social media like 2015 or what have you. Stories about careers being ended due to stupid mistakes on social media are not new to people, young or old. People on the platform are aware of potential consequences, and we see people "cancelled" every day. No room for mistakes in 2022. Make a mistake and you're fired.
 
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I don't think he intended to be racist, but any time you call someone a "freak of nature" because of their skin color, there are racist undertones to that. 100%. See my example. Would you call someone who is disabled a "freak of nature"? What exactly is the difference? For the record, if someone called someone who had very light skin a "freak of nature", I'd think that's wrong too.
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I doubt he intended to "be racist", it's just that his internal racism made it difficult for him to not realize how racist the post he was replying to was and in turn how racist his post was.

Remember the context was referencing the Guinness Book of World Record’s darkest skinned individual in the world.

It’s fair to claim she’s a “freak of nature”. Just as it’s fair to claim anyone holding a world record holder in something beyond their control is a “freak of nature”.
Yeah that's not a real Guinness World Record. It was clearly a racist tweet, and the fact he didn't seem to understand that before replying is honestly very telling.
 
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Remember the context was referencing the Guinness Book of World Record’s darkest skinned individual in the world.
That was completely fake news. Guinness does not track skin color and there is no such thing as the world record for darkest skin.

The tweet was offensive precisely because dark skin is a completely normal and common human phenotype - unlike extreme athletic ability.
There are probably a billion people in the world with very dark skin and Lieberman's labeling it as a 'freak of nature' just exposed his own inveterate ethnocentrism. Only someone who considers a European appearance the default could make such a comment. I mean, would you call someone with blue eyes a 'freak of nature'? Globally, blue eyes are far less common than dark skin.

Aside, did anyone else think the tweet could be related to early dementia? Disinhibition is common in that context and I just have to wonder.
Although if there is a history of similar types of commentary perhaps it's less likely.
 
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Remember the context was referencing the Guinness Book of World Record’s darkest skinned individual in the world.

It’s fair to claim she’s a “freak of nature”. Just as it’s fair to claim anyone holding a world record holder in something beyond their control is a “freak of nature”.

This is a common endearing term used today in sports but stems from freak shows and “genetic” freaks. It’d be great if we can move away from the word freak and veer towards an anomaly of nature, or a genetic lottery winner of nature, or something more neutral / positive.

But let’s wait to fire people until after we can have a fantasy football draft where Saquon Barkley isn’t described as a literal freak of nature in in every pre draft write up.

Sorry but no. No it is not ok. No it is not kosher. No it is not a term of endearment to refer to someone's skin color as a "freak of nature". It's a human being. And for what it's worth, she is not in Guinness. That was a bunch of BS.
 
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Totally agree inappropriate and I don't know the man but before reading these responses my guess was old dude who thinks he's got game trying to say how hot she is and botching it up royally.
 
Depending on context, freak of nature is most definitely a term of endearment.

No dude, it is not. I mean, I can use "slut" too and call it a term of endearment "in my circles". Doesn't make it so.

Perhaps not in your circles. That doesn’t give you or anyone exclusive privilege over the word.

Freaks of Nature is a comedy horror movie where a zombie, a human, and a vampire must unite to defeat aliens.

Freaks of nature is the name of an album by Kansas.

Freaks of Nature is the title of the cover of an old copy of Scientific American.

Freaks of Nature is the name for multiple current amateur sport competitions.

Freak of Nature is directly referred to once and freak is alluded to 5 times during round 2 alone of a recent Sports Illustrated’s mock NFL draft write up.

Freak’s is a well known annual list of draft prospects released by Pro Football Focus.

I notice not one of your examples is about the color of one's skin which is what we're discussing here. In fact, nothing you describe above is about a person at all.

I personally dislike the term as it can reflect back on “freakshows”and negative connotations. It can also reflect on endearing terms ie the Scottish and English etymologies.

Freak of nature wasn’t used here to put someone down.

When you use a phrase like "freak of nature" to describe someone's dark skin tone, it's the literal definition of a put-down.

Rather than focus on what terms are kosher, why not spend our time calling out actual issues such as the historical fetishization of skin color by white males (and other groups) and the significant harms this perpetuates today.

Why can't I do both?
 
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The conflicting issue with Nemeroff is yes he messed up and messed up in a way that he should've been penalized. The conflict is do you then cast out one of the greatest living minds in the field that can contribute much more?

Far better to penalize the guy, then allow him to continue after paying his penalty but on a leash so he doesn't do it again. Kind of like Frank Abagnale, the real life character of Catch Me if You Can. The guy stole millions in fake checks, is eventually caught, but after serving several months in a federal prison then the FBI release him on the condition that he work for them helping them to catch other frauds.
well frank abagnale jr was a teenager at the time of his misdeeds, exaggerated the extent of his fraud, and never worked for the FBI (he lied about that). It is right not to hold the misdeeds of adolescence against someone given we are prone to making mistakes and change alot during this critical period of development (although ironically, abagnale has not changed and has shown himself to be a fraudster to this day). Lieberman is a septuagenrian who was in the swansong of his career, and does not have the capacity to radically change at this point.

I don't get the references to Dr. Oz either. Oz as far as I am aware has not been accused of racism or misogyny. In fact, for a republican he has been quite active in raising awareness of racism in medicine, He has been accused of peddling quackery, which for better or worse, is protected as a form of academic freedom. It would have been very hard to Columbia to discipline him because they would have violated their own academic freedom policies to do so (similar to institutions that have refused and been unable to discipline academics peddling controverisal ideas and treatments for COVID). Professors are allowed to express controversial views. Lieberman's conduct was not protected by academic freedom, since his position does not give him any expertise to be making comments about models. Oz has also not been working clinically for some years, and no longer holds an active appointment at Columbia (he is emeritus faculty now). I'm also assuming that Columbia made a calculated decision that Oz's affiliation was positive for the institution, regardless of what they thought of his views.

Really what you are asking, is whether someone who is potentially an asset to the profession (and I would argue that Lieberman has not been for a long time), should be shielded by their privilege from consequences for bad conduct? I don't know what the answer to that question is, but the reality is he and others in positions of power have been held unaccountable for far too long
 
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Freaks of Nature is the name for multiple current amateur sport competitions.

Freak of Nature is directly referred to once and freak is alluded to 5 times during round 2 alone of a recent Sports Illustrated’s mock NFL draft write up.

Freak’s is a well known annual list of draft prospects released by Pro Football Focus.

I don't think anyone would care if Dr. Lieberman was a football fan who tweeted about an elite NFL player being an athletic freak of nature. The context matters.
 
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1. Slut is a term of endearment in many circles. Much of it depends on the context slut is said in.

Maybe if you're a high school student with low standards. In no professional circles is slut a term of endearment.

2. I tried to show the term freak of nature has many definitions; some endearing some not. All of those examples listed were about “people” and their abilities (outside of the vampire, zombie, and alien reference depending on whether we classify fictional entities as people).

They did not refer to a person's looks or skin color. If you can't understand the difference between that and what you showed me, I don't know what to tell you except that you should probably read up more on the controversy.

3. Dr Lieberman didn’t use the term freak of nature nor the color of her skin as a “put down”. Indeed he did the opposite. Lieberman used the color of her skin to call her “a beautiful sight to behold”. This leads to point 4.

Sure, he might have meant it that way, but the phrase "freak of nature" in ANY context is not a compliment when it refers to a person's looks.

4. We can’t do both. If we focus on policing words, we take focus away from everything that is not policing words. IE there is less focus on why Lieberman (and many) feels skin color helps define beauty ie the fetishizing of skin color by white males (and others).

Of course we can do both. What on earth are you talking about? It's not policing words and frankly, I'm sick to death of people downplaying insulting words and minimizing their impact because of the "bigger picture" they tout. I don't really care about the "fetishizing of skin color by white males" or any other nonsense. What I care about is racist words, subtexts and insinuations coming out of the mouths of people who should know better before they use their professional clout to put it out there.


I’ll contrast this with a counter example. Many non white women bleach their skin to look whiter. The racial connotations are obvious.

We can invest our efforts towards banning bleach (ban Lieberman). This distracts from the case of racial equality by bringing in all sort of arguments for individual freedom (freedom to buy and use bleach vs freedom of speech in the wake of cancel culture). Or we can instead try to discover why so many non white women feel the need to bleach their skin (or in Lieberman’s case, why he feels it’s okay to fetishize skin color).

Dude, this literally has nothing to do with anything. Women also put on make up. They also put in colored contacts. So what? Are you suggesting that's even a little bit similar to Lieberman calling a black woman a freak of nature?

There will always be another male who feels the need to comment on how beautiful he finds another female. And there will always be another store selling bleach. But we can get bogged down in the details or start pointing out how skin color itself shouldn’t make anyone beautiful, ugly, or need to bleach theirs to look more like the fetishized version.

I feel that you've missed the plot entirely and don't have any kind of grasp on why people got upset.
 
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Maybe if you're a high school student with low standards. In no professional circles is slut a term of endearment.

Just being a little pendantic, but in the adult fetish community, it is indeed a term of endearment for many people. There's even a bestseller with multiple editions. "The Ethical Slut." They define it is "a person of any gender who has the courage to lead life according to the radical proposition that sex is nice and pleasure is good for you." I imagine these people may be offended by the assumption that they are immature and cannot be professionals.
 
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